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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > 10W USB Hub?

10W USB Hub?
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schalliol
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Jun 29, 2010, 11:13 AM
 
Does anyone know/recommend a 10W USB hub out there (one that can do 2A @ 5V for a single port)? I have an iPad and iPhone I'd like to sync and back-up while they charge. I heard that some hubs are higher power and it would be great to use one for this purpose if they do exist. Thanks!
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zacharace
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Jun 29, 2010, 03:48 PM
 
From scanning a few articles (here mainly), it looks like only one USB port at a time on Apple computers can be used as a "high-powered" port providing sufficient power for charging. Thus, I'd deduce that the typical USB hub--powered or not--wouldn't be able to transfer this "high-power" output--and charge an iPhone as well. Regardless, I've never come across, to date, a 10W USB hub, not to mention the fact that power outputs are pretty hard to dig up on manufacturers' Web sites.

But, I could always be wrong. Here's hoping!
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jun 29, 2010, 04:23 PM
 
zacharace, thanks for the information. I would think that a hub could be created that could deliver high power to some ports on need, but I also can't find any that exist. Hopefully a company like Griffin will introduce such a thing! They typically look for a product that is fairly differentiated and serve Apple products quite well.
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Jun 29, 2010, 04:24 PM
 
I would imagine that 3 million iPads sold make for an attractive market to go after with a new product like that. Here's hoping it's rather soon.
     
kman42
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Jun 29, 2010, 05:53 PM
 
I'd like a high-powered hub too. I used to charge my iPhone 3GS off a powered hub until I updated to iOS4. It just wouldn't charge anymore. My new iPhone 4 seems to charge VERY slowly. With my computer asleep and my iPhone plugged into the charger at 35% power remaining, it gets up to about 80% by the next morning with the phone off. Not quite sure why iOS4 screwed up my charging regime.
     
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Jun 29, 2010, 11:42 PM
 
I'm not sure if this is true but it wouldn't surprise me is many usb hubs weren't smart enough to determine which port was drawing the power. If so a 4 port hub with 500 ma per port could do the same thing.
     
The Godfather
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Jun 30, 2010, 12:47 AM
 
Get 7 port USB hub.
Remove 3 USB ports.
Wire pin 1 in each of the unpopulated ports to pin 1 of a port labeled iPad.
Do the same for pin 4.
Make sure that the AC adapter is rated for 5V, 3.5 amps.
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jun 30, 2010, 12:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
Get 7 port USB hub.
Remove 3 USB ports.
Wire pin 1 in each of the unpopulated ports to pin 1 of a port labeled iPad.
Do the same for pin 4.
Make sure that the AC adapter is rated for 5V, 3.5 amps.
Done, I'll pay you $40 for it. You in?
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HenryMelton
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Jun 30, 2010, 06:50 PM
 
I ordered the following:
1 3121-T7UH T7Hub 7-port USB 2.0 Silver $39.99 $39.99
Shipping $9.32
Grand Total $49.31

503-582-9944 877-611-2688 Dr. Bott | Products that ROCK! for your Mac, iPod and iPhone
------------------------------------------------------------

However, I'm out of town and have not yet tested it out, but the specs looked good at the time the impulse-purchase itch came.

UPDATE: Nope. This one doesn't go into high power mode for an iPad. It's a fine hub otherwise.
( Last edited by HenryMelton; Jul 29, 2010 at 05:34 PM. Reason: New Data)
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jun 30, 2010, 07:04 PM
 
Sent the Following to Dr. Bott:
A number of us over at MacNN Forums (http://forums.macnn.com/103/ipod-iph...6/10w-usb-hub/) are looking for a hub that can simultaneously charge and sync our iPads and iPhones at levels just like Apple's iPad Charger kit (or at least the levels newer laptops can). Do you have any products that can do this? One of the folks ordered the 3121-T7UH unit on the hope that this will provide similar performance. If you can confirm you have a product that does what we're asking for or are building one, certainly orders will be headed your way.
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Lered
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Jul 28, 2010, 11:39 PM
 
I know a self-powered hub can provide full power (up to 500mA) to every port. Found this 7 Ports USB HUB With Extra Power Supply from sourcingmap. It can support 5V output, and high speed data transfer rate up to 480Mps. But i don't know the mean of "480Mps", can anyone explain it? Thanks!
( Last edited by Lered; Jul 28, 2010 at 11:42 PM. Reason: misspelling)
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jul 29, 2010, 12:36 AM
 
The problem with this is that we need 2,000mA to a couple of ports. 480Mbps is what USB 2.0 can handle in terms of mega bits per second. What you are describing is fairly similar to most hubs, but maybe it can provide more ports with 500mA.
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The Godfather
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Jul 29, 2010, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by schalliol View Post
Done, I'll pay you $40 for it. You in?
Found my hardware source, but it will cost YOU $50 plus shipping. If you are serious about getting this hub (or anyone else), PM me.
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jul 29, 2010, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
Found my hardware source, but it will cost YOU $50 plus shipping. If you are serious about getting this hub (or anyone else), PM me.
We went back and forth via PM, but since The Godfather indicated he could make two for two devices, I made an OmniGraffle of what I'm looking for:
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subego
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Jul 29, 2010, 12:58 PM
 
Won't he have to yank the .5mA ports to build the 2mA ones?
     
The Godfather
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Jul 29, 2010, 12:59 PM
 
The iPhone 4 needs high powered USB to charge?
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jul 29, 2010, 01:02 PM
 
I don't know about how it would be structured, but this is the type of thing I'm looking for.

No, the iPhone 4 doesn't need a high powered USB hub to charge, but neither does the iPad. Both just charge more slowly. It's more pronounced in the iPad because the capacity of the batteries is much higher. However, an iPhone 4 can be fully charged in something like an hour via the iPad charger.
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subego
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Jul 29, 2010, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by schalliol View Post
I don't know about how it would be structured, but this is the type of thing I'm looking for.
I got the impression that the way it would work is you cannibalize three ports for every high powered port, thus you would only get two working ports out of a eight port hub.

At the least, even if the other ports functioned, they wouldn't provide power anymore.

I think.
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jul 29, 2010, 02:39 PM
 
I may have originally misunderstood The Godfather. Someone could just design one to do this as noted above. This is what I am looking for, and it should be possible. Perhaps this is a good job for Griffin Technology.
( Last edited by schalliol; Jul 29, 2010 at 04:53 PM. )
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Jul 29, 2010, 06:29 PM
 
I may be wrong, but don't usb peripherals need to "authenticate" in order to receive more power? (ie: "this is what I do, I need X unit of power). If the hub wasn't designed to handle 2 A from the start, can it still provide it?
     
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Jul 29, 2010, 06:35 PM
 
From Wikipedia:

A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150 mA in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) can be drawn from a port in USB 2.0, which was raised to 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. Low-power devices draw at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0. High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard. All devices default as low-power but the device's software may request high-power as long as the power is available on the providing bus.[28]
Some devices like high-speed external disk drives may require more than 500 mA of current[29] and therefore cannot be powered from one USB 2.0 port.
so theorically a port should not be able to provide more than 500 mA of current.. So Apple is not abiding by the protocol to provide 2 A? I don't understand...
     
The Godfather
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Jul 29, 2010, 06:39 PM
 
It seems that an iPhone must negotiate something with the hub/computer/charger to allow itself to draw the 2A for battery charging.
It is not a trivial thing.
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FireWire
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Jul 30, 2010, 09:24 AM
 
I understand any device has to negotiate in order to receive more current, but since the protocol dictates that the maximum amount of current that can be provided is 5 units (500 mA), I'm wondering how a device can negotiate for more! "High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard." Are the USB ports on Mac different?
     
subego
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Jul 30, 2010, 10:41 AM
 
Not on the computers, on the chargers.

Charging straight from a Mac takes more than twice what it takes to do it from a "works with iPad charger", like Apple's, so it's safe to assume a computer is only providing 500mA.
     
FireWire
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Jul 30, 2010, 11:01 AM
 
OK, I thought I read here that only one port on the Mac could be used as a "super port". So the "works with iPad" chargers cheat and don't conform to the standard? It would be strange from Apple's part to design something made to bypass the specifications!
     
The Godfather
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Jul 30, 2010, 11:19 AM
 
I read somewhere that Apple USB ports are special because they conform to the USB specification in ways that the rest of them PC makers and hub makers find too expensive.
On the other hand I've read that some Asus motherboard can get a BIOS update to allow Mac-like iPad charging.
I predict an Apple branded USB hub before or at the same time as iOS4 for the iPad. It would make sense, as no one wants an iPad losing power while upgrading.
Also, Griffin and other accessory makers will probably never make such a hub, as the silicon to allow power and syncing at 2 Amps does not exist (by my search).
     
FireWire
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Jul 30, 2010, 11:31 AM
 
But the question is: how can they conform to the specs if the specs say the max is 500 mA. It's that part that confuses me!

Originally Posted by The Godfather
Also, Griffin and other accessory makers will probably never make such a hub, as the silicon to allow power and syncing at 2 Amps does not exist (by my search).
It requires a special silicon? As the pins for data and power are separate, I thought they could simply use stronger connectors to handle the higher current.
     
subego
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Jul 30, 2010, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
OK, I thought I read here that only one port on the Mac could be used as a "super port". So the "works with iPad" chargers cheat and don't conform to the standard? It would be strange from Apple's part to design something made to bypass the specifications!
Really? Makes sense to me. Or are you being sarcastic?


Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
I read somewhere that Apple USB ports are special because they conform to the USB specification in ways that the rest of them PC makers and hub makers find too expensive.
On the other hand I've read that some Asus motherboard can get a BIOS update to allow Mac-like iPad charging.
I predict an Apple branded USB hub before or at the same time as iOS4 for the iPad. It would make sense, as no one wants an iPad losing power while upgrading.
Also, Griffin and other accessory makers will probably never make such a hub, as the silicon to allow power and syncing at 2 Amps does not exist (by my search).
It's charging when you plug it in. "Not charging" in Apple speak means "charging really slow" I'd be shocked if it could die during an update.
     
FireWire
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Jul 30, 2010, 11:45 AM
 
No I'm not sarcastic.. I don't understand how they are doing it! It's simply not in the spec to allocate more than 5 units of power, so I'm wondering how is it possible to negotiate for more if the device is not designed to do it! And furthurmore, why would Apple assume that it's products require a non-compliant device to work properly
     
subego
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Jul 30, 2010, 12:27 PM
 
How: they write a custom controller interface.

Why: to keep up the "it just works" philosophy. If they used the straight spec, it would take a whole day (or more) to recharge.
     
FireWire
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Jul 30, 2010, 12:31 PM
 
OK! and they still can claim to be compliant without repercussions from the comitee?
     
Leonard
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Jul 30, 2010, 01:43 PM
 
Does this answer your question Firewire:

In Battery Charging Specification,[31] new powering modes are added to the USB specification. A host or hub Charging Downstream Port can supply a maximum of 1.5 A when communicating at low-bandwidth or full-bandwidth, a maximum of 900 mA when communicating at high-bandwidth, and as much current as the connector will safely handle when no communication is taking place; USB 2.0 standard-A connectors are rated at 1500 mA by default. A Dedicated Charging Port can supply a maximum of 1.8 A of current at 5.25 V. A portable device can draw up to 1.8 A from a Dedicated Charging Port. The Dedicated Charging Port shorts the D+ and D- pins with a resistance of at most 200Ω. The short disables data transfer, but allows devices to detect the Dedicated Charging Port and allows very simple, high current chargers to be manufactured. The increased current (faster, 9 W charging) will occur once both the host/hub and devices support the new charging specification.
From what I understand, that almost reaches your 2A. 1.8A is close.
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schalliol  (op)
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Jul 30, 2010, 02:01 PM
 
This sounds like it explains basically how it must work, and it may tell the story that there's no way to do data transfer at 2.1A. That said, the new macs can supply a higher power (don't know if it's 2.1A).
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Jul 30, 2010, 03:21 PM
 
Well, that still doesn't explain how it can sync and charge at the same time as the high power mode disable disable data transfer, but at this point I will just assume it's a bit of Apple's magic or that the reality distortion field is operating at the electrical level

Anyway, thank you!
     
The Godfather
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Jul 31, 2010, 09:37 AM
 
I tried my own suggestion with the 7 port hub (except that I re routed incoming 5v from USB pin to power supply, bypassing the current limiter), and it does not work. Not even a "Not charging" message is offered.

What's more disheartening is that my hub (DLINK 7 port), without modification, didn't charge an iPhone until the PC was connected as host. What happens is that the current limiter will stay open circuit until the host is plugged into.

Can anybody recommend USB hubs that will sync+charge iPhones at full speed even when the PC is off?

My offer for charging hubs is void and I will make a new offer when this problem gets tackled.
( Last edited by The Godfather; Jul 31, 2010 at 09:49 AM. )
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jul 31, 2010, 11:15 AM
 
Thanks for making the effort to try this!
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The Godfather
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Aug 2, 2010, 07:50 AM
 
Just in case nobody saw this question, I'll repeat it because it's important that I get a tip about this.

Can anybody recommend USB hubs that will sync+charge iPhones at full speed even when the PC is off?
     
macmedix
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Jan 5, 2011, 04:36 AM
 
Just in case you haven't spotted it, this iPad charging deal is solved. It was all a matter of some resisters to signal what current is allowed. Interesting. Apple does some very non-standard things with the data lines of the usb.

View topic - $500 for help with project * iPad charger

Now if we can just get this built into a usb hub, dock, cradle, or something so we can sync AND charge the iPad.... Just a matter of time I suppose.
     
schalliol  (op)
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Jan 5, 2011, 11:58 PM
 
Thanks for the post! Now we just need someone to make a nice powered hub that can 2A charge and sync!
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