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shabbasuraj · Apr 25, 2007, 01:51 AM

Powerbook Keyboards... mmmm...

They simply are the REFERENCE STANDARD.

I love those keyboards....

Everytime I unplug my PB from clamshell mode...pure bliss...... in comparison to the mushy Apple external USB I use when in clamshell...

And o yeah vid card on my rev. C has no problems whatsoever pushing an external 20"

Aron Peterson · Apr 25, 2007, 06:26 AM

I've always wanted Apple to make a slim external full-size version of the PB/MBP keyboard. Boggles my mind why they still ship Mac Pros with that mushy white iMac keyboard.

OSUwarch · Apr 25, 2007, 08:35 AM

boss99er

You keep mentioning you would love to try one out, why not provide some information about where you are (obviously don't give out your address), and give a radius of how far you would be willing to drive to try one out. Maybe someone is close enough to meet you at starbucks or something and let you try it out for a little while. I know that if you were in range, I would let you buy me a cup of coffee, and try out my pb. Lean on the Mac community. Also if you want more infomation on the different revisions go here
Apple - Support - Specifications
Good luck

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 10:09 AM

Oh man, there is a real small chance that anyone is from where I am from. I live in Kearney Nebraska....anyone......anyone??? I often go to Omaha and Lincoln though so if anyone lives in those two places I might be able to meet ya. That is a pretty good idea though OSUwarch. Thanks for the suggestion.

iREZ · Apr 25, 2007, 12:17 PM

i used to own a 1ghz 12" powerbook and my current machine is a 2.0 macbook pro cd.

the 12" powerbook is a great computer if you dont mind the resolution, and no matter what anybody says...photoshop and illustrator are BOTH usable at 1024x768 if you know what youre doing.

my cousin has a mbp and picked up a 12" 1.5 for $600 brand new at a closing compusa and uses it as the house loaner (ie. if somebody needs to use a computer in the house and he doesnt trust them with his macbook he lends them the 12"). the 12" has a great processor that could def handle the cs2 suite quite handily yet alone the internet, the only issue is the resolution...i used my 12" for 3 years and never had a regret.

but if you were to ask me right now if i would rather have a macbook or a 12" powerbook, id take the 13" macbook hands down. brighter screen, larger resolution, faster front side bus, dual core, isight/front row, and could handle HD trailers a lot better than the 12" powerbook. if you could score a 1.33ghz or better 12" for around $500-$600 then by all means go for it...but if its more around $700, save up that extra hundred and get yourself a macbook.

amazing · Apr 25, 2007, 12:52 PM

As you can tell from this thread, there's a lot of devoted 12" PB owners out there. Personally, I think that's largely due to the small form factor and lighter weight than the MB offerings. It's plain easier to carry around and whip out when you need it.

But these advantages also mean that it retains a higher resale and refurb value.

Bottom line: if money's no object, then you probably would have already bought one. If you're watching your pennies, then you're better off getting a white MB, because you'll get much better value for your money.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 01:01 PM

Yeah, I am starting to lean a little more towards the macbook...even though I would have to settle for a white one. I love the look of the PB12, but I dont know if spending 600 on a three year old computer is worth it instead of 800-950 on a brand new one.

Sprocket · Apr 25, 2007, 05:24 PM

a number of the other psoters here who really dig their 12" PowerBooks and use them daily. I am one of those, plus I run a web and print based design agency from one of mine (I have 3) that I bought in August '05. I have had zero problems, the thing just runs a wee bit warm. I have OS 10.4.9 on this and Classic which I also use. Being a long-time PowerBook user (G3 Wallstreet, PB 3400c, PB 520c, PB 100, Duo 2300c, Duo 280c -- well you get the idea) I have to say this is the most trouble-free machine I have every used. Now. That said, it will age. But for casual use, I still use my Duo 2300c! (THAT'S old!) Food for thought: These things last best when looked after. Don't buy one without taking it fr a 'test drive' first. Sometimes the optical drive can act up. Dings and marks means it has had rough use. Look where the bolts are too. Any marks made by a slipped tool? If so, don't buy it -- move on. That's my 2¢ worth.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 05:25 PM

Hey, just curious guys. What do you think I could get for my 400mhz sawtooth on here? I will probably sell it to buy the laptop, no matter which one I choose. Its the 400mhz sawtooth, 1 GB ram, dvd drive, keyboard and mouse. Oh, and I would throw in OS X Tiger. What do you think I could get? Or better yet, if any of you are interested, let me know.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 05:48 PM

Ha ha, and my wife says we WILL be selling her 800mhz G4 imac too. I wasnt aware but i guess we dont need that many computers in the house. Ha ha. Hers is a 800mhz G4, cd-r drive, 1GB ram. How much is that thing worth. Sorry to ask about all this, but I really have no idea.

Aron Peterson · Apr 25, 2007, 07:04 PM

Tiger would slow down your Sawtooth and make the sale harder. Put the last OS that still runs fast on it. If you're selling two usable computers I'd personally go for the fastest machine you can afford. I wouldn't want to see you disappointed by the speed of a PB12 in a year's time no matter how good the form factor of it is. MacBook I say. Or a cheap MBP if you can find one.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 07:14 PM

Actually the sawtooth handles the tiger pretty well. But, I use the sawtooth about the same way I would use the PB12. Internet and itunes and thats about it. You said buy a macbook or a cheap MBP but I am looking for something I can leave by the couch most of the time and is crazy portable. Thats why I looked at the PB12 in the first place. We actually have a MBP as I said before. I just want an internet browsing laptop for the living room.

Aron Peterson · Apr 25, 2007, 07:22 PM

I'm still worried about you making that decision. Leopard will make use of resolution independent interfaces that very possibly won't run optimally on a Geforce FX Go 5200. Factor in the G4 CPU and you might get burned when you see all the GUI loveliness running on desktops in a year's time.

Subaru_Nation555 · Apr 25, 2007, 07:34 PM

My 12" PowerBook is just about two years old. I love everything about it except the display (just not that bright) and the performance (okay for basics but it is still pretty slow). Great little computer with an excellent keyboard and form factor.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 07:36 PM

So you're saying I wont want to be stuck with an old machine when I see all the new leopard toys coming out?

Aron Peterson · Apr 25, 2007, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by boss99er

So you're saying I wont want to be stuck with an old machine when I see all the new leopard toys coming out?

Obviously. This could be the biggest upgrade since 10.3. You know, why not hold out until October and hear what people have to say about how well Leopard runs on PowerBooks and other models before you decide? Those months will pass quick.

sdilley14 · Apr 25, 2007, 08:14 PM

I had a rev. D 12" for about a year. I loved it. The only reason I got rid of it was the fact that I needed more screen space and I wanted a glossy display. It was an excellent machine. Ran CS2, DreamWeaver, iTunes, Safari, MSN, and Adium at the same time without a hitch (granted, it was very minimal PhotoShop work I was doing). But yeah I liked it a lot! If they had a 12" or 13" MBP I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

boss99er · Apr 25, 2007, 09:49 PM

Yeah I hear what you're saying about the leopard stuff. Like someone else said, if they had a 12-13 inch MBP I would be all over it. Maybe they will announce it in June at the developers conference. Ha ha, wishful thinking. I actually got to use a macbook today and I was really impressed. The only thing i didnt really like was the keyboard with the weird keys but I bet I would get used to it pretty fast. Plus, it wasnt THAT big holding it in my hand. Its still that plastic that bothers me since I like the aluminum case so much. I think the black one would seem a little less cheap to me for some reason. I guess I still have some thinking to do. There is no hurry. I am sitting on the couch right now with the MBP and while its pretty big, i can still handle using it around the house.

dj_frankle · 05:07 AM

One of my mates has a 12" PB and loves it. He does a bit of music production with Cubase and Ableton Live and it handles it very well. I am currently looking for one as well here in Australia for the misses, I am sick of trying to tweak and clean up her PC laptop everytime I hear the words "I hate this f%#king slow piece of sh*t". My 15" PB is great for my work and play, and that is the reason I want to get her the 12" PB, so it just works and I can get back to my PB!

wilsonng · Apr 26, 2007, 04:23 AM

I love my 12" Rev. A PB's form factor. However, my eyesight isn't getting any better as the years pass.

As much as I'd love a 12" MBP, I might be more inclined to get a 13.3" MB for better readability....

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 08:21 AM

Are the displays really that bad on the PB12??? How about on the Rev C and D versions? My wife has a G4 imac...are they comparable to those screens?

Aron Peterson · 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by boss99er

Are the displays really that bad on the PB12???

No. I don't know what Wilson meant by that. Legibility on the PB12 is the same if not better than on MBPs.

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 09:08 AM

Man, I really dont know what to do. One minute I want the PB12 because they are just so affordable for me right now and they seem to have quite a few people that REALLY like them. On the other hand, I want to spring for the extra 300-400 and buy something that will last me for 4-5 years. Seriously, I have NEVER had this much trouble making myself decide on a computer.

Aron Peterson · Apr 26, 2007, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by boss99er

Seriously, I have NEVER had this much trouble making myself decide on a computer.

The transition from PPC to Intel, and then the pace at which Intel updates their products has made the decision of when to buy harder than ever. Just ask hardcore PC gamers. They're either waiting to upgrade or fanatically upgrading internal parts every month.

I don't know whether to get a second hand quad G5 or wait for a quad-core MacBook Pro or wait for an eight-core Mac Pro with hyperthreading or just get the next MBP and be happy with it.

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 09:25 AM

Ha ha, well its good to see someone else struggle with this too. I know once you mentioned the upgrading to leopard thing. Do you think that the mb would be able to handle it "that" much better than a 1.5Ghz PB12 with maxed out RAM? Just curious since I havent researched leopard much at all yet.

rjt1000 · Apr 26, 2007, 10:50 AM

I have a 12 inch 1.33 ghz PB that I have used since new in June 2004. It has been a great machine and has had no problems except a bad hard drive that died at just over a year. That said, I think you are getting much better value for your money with a white MacBook (especially a refurb C2D). At the moment, the 12 inch PB's have a relatively high resale value because there is no 12 inch MBP or smaller form factor Mac laptop. That may end soon as it would seem poor business sense for Apple to ignore this market. (Apple is not known for its poor business sense). But even if they don't, the 12 inch PB is in the steep part of the depreciation curve. Besides the better performance and 1 year warranty, the MacBook would enjoy much better resale value if you want to sell it in a year or two as compared to the PB. And if the used PB you buy becomes faulty (something to be considered in a machine thats a year or two old), it could rapidly depreciate to near nothing. I'd go for the MacBook and don't look back.

palane · Apr 26, 2007, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by mfbernstein

Never understood why the PB12 was so much more popular than the 12" G4 iBook. The difference for the last generation is .3 lbs, an aluminum case, .17GHZ, and a marginally better video card. Otherwise, they're effectively the same machine (except the iBook seems to have a sturdier case, and better wireless reception, not to mention a higher RAM ceiling).

Digital video out and appearance were the selling points for us. And don't sell its durability short. My wife's 3 year old PB12 took a tumble down the stairs onto a hardwood floor and came out working just fine. The case on the side was slightly bent, but no other visible damage and it works perfectly. I'd love to see a smaller MBP, though the MB is a much more compelling computer than the iBook. Just my $0.02

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 11:18 AM

Do you think it is crazy to ask for $400 for the 800mhz Imac and $200 for the sawtooth??? I just put a for sale thread in the marketplace. I dont want to look greedy or anything so let me know if those prices are in the ballpark. Thanks guys!!!

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 04:58 PM

No opinions on my pricing??? I really have no idea what would be fair, so opinions would be appreciated.

rjt1000 · Apr 26, 2007, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by boss99er

No opinions on my pricing??? I really have no idea what would be fair, so opinions would be appreciated.

You can get a good idea of the fair market value by searching completed auctions for those models on eBay (after searching current auctions click on the "show only: completed listings" checkbox in the left margin)

boss99er · Apr 26, 2007, 05:10 PM

Thanks!!! I tried that and it seems I am in the ballpark on both of those. Most iMacs go for 350-450 and the sawtooth goes from 175-250 usually. I think you guys have convinced me to get a macbook though. I will probably try and buy a black one if the wife lets me put the extra money into it.

wilsonng · Apr 26, 2007, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by boss99er

Are the displays really that bad on the PB12??? How about on the Rev C and D versions? My wife has a G4 imac...are they comparable to those screens?

No, I did not imply that the PB12 had bad displays.

I just meant that a 12" MacBook Pro with a 1280x800 resolution might not be suitable for my eyes anymore. The 12" PowerBook with 1024x768 is fine for my eyes (at least for the moment).

However, I will reserve judgment until I can visit a PC shop and see what 12" Windows laptops are on display that have 1280x800 with glossy and/or matte screens. This would give me an idea about what to expect if I were to seriously consider a 12" MacBook Pro.

My friend had a 10" laptop with 1024x768. It was workable but after looking at it for 30 minutes, my eyes were fatigued....

Aron Peterson · Apr 26, 2007, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by wilsonng

No, I did not imply that the PB12 had bad displays.

I just meant that a 12" MacBook Pro with a 1280x800 resolution might not be suitable for my eyes anymore. The 12" PowerBook with 1024x768 is fine for my eyes (at least for the moment).

That would be 13.3 inches. None of the TFT providers manufacture 12" screens with a resolution higher than 1024x768. If they did I would consider upgrading my screen

Remember you can increase the size of your fonts regardless of what resolution your screen is.

Glossy 12" screen upgrades are available from 3rd parties btw.

fisherKing · Apr 26, 2007, 08:42 PM

much as i love my revD 12" powerbook... the screen pales next to a same-generation 15" pb (my GF has one).
and it's overshadowed by the mbp & mb screens.

having said that, it's still far better than, say, my previous pb (a pismo).

i'm keeping mine until apple gives me a 12" mbp (or this pb passes on...!)

brettcamp · Apr 27, 2007, 12:00 AM

It'd make a nice road machine. I really loved my 1.33 12" PB because it was so light, so easy to just whip out when you're on the road and need to work quickly. The keyboard is, as others have said here, fantastic. The whole thing just had this amazingly solid feel to it. I only sold mine because the screen was too small and not bright enough to be my desktop replacement (I replaced it with a newer 15" with a brighter screen, and it's been perfect but never felt quite as easy to carry around). But for a second machine like you want, it should be fine.
I wouldn't pay too much more than I would for a 12" iBook though. The PB keyboard was immensely superior, but the Airport reception was slightly inferior to the iBook's. And the PB just felt sleeker and more solid; it's a real classic of design. But both had that easy to carry feel and since it's going to be a second machine, maybe the keyboard and other factors don't justify a significantly higher price than an iBook. Both had the same rather dim screen compared to later Apple notebooks.
You might want to wait to see if Apple's rumored subnotebook really comes out this year. If it does have flash memory rather than a hard drive, and an LED screen, it'd be lighter, cooler, and run longer than the 12" PB, but of course a lot pricier.

indomitable · Apr 27, 2007, 01:06 PM

I often find it surprising when I think about how long I've had my 12in. I bought the first 12in shortly after it was released then traded up to this one about a year later and have been pushing it hard ever since. I wouldn't trade it for any machine on the market today and it's over 3 years old. The only thing that would get me to give it up would be if the rumored subnotebook turns out to be something with enough power to satisfy my needs. I use it for everything from TextEdit to World of Warcraft and it never puts up a fuss. I simply have no complaints. Also, as was said before there is just no better keyboard out there. I hope the MacBook works out for you. Personally I haven't found them tantalizing enough to warrant giving up my battered and trusty PowerBook.

boss99er · Apr 27, 2007, 01:55 PM

Well yeah, I can see your poing. Having one that has been with you through thick and thin would be hard to give up...especially since you have first hand experience with how they run. I have no experience and I would be buying one used that has been with someone else. The more people respond on here with points about why I should buy the macbook...the better that option is starting to look. For the most part, all of the responses for the PB12 have been something like "ABSOLUTELY BUY ONE......maybe." Ha ha, the post always starts out telling how GREAT the PB12 is, but then usually kinda tapers off to a "well maybe a macbook would be better for you."

amazing · Apr 27, 2007, 02:22 PM

We all got out 12" PB while they were still "the one to get." However, you don't wanna throw lots of money at an older laptop. You want the warranty, the option to get applecare, and you want the newest chip (especially if you wanna run anything Windows).

Especially if the MacBook doesn't cost all that much more than a used 12". Now, if a buddy of yours was gonna give you a sweet deal on a 12", that'd be different.

boss99er · Apr 27, 2007, 02:31 PM

Yeah I hear ya. Looks like i'll just have to wait until I find a real good deal on a black macbook. Thats the one I think I will look for. Oh, and the C2D processor.

Jaret · Apr 27, 2007, 05:57 PM

I have a Rev A 12" PB and a Rev A MacBook Pro. I like the 12" PB, but I don't miss it too much. The MacBook would be my choice if I was buying right now, without question.

wilsonng · Apr 28, 2007, 02:01 AM

Well, the Dell XPS M1210 has a 12.1" screen with 1280x800 resolution.

Dell XPS M1210

Is there a way to increase the font size in the menu bar, application windows, etc.? It's easy enough to change the zoom level in Microsoft Office and increase the text size in the browsers but MacOS X Tiger doesn't have the capability of increasing the text size of the programs and operating system.

MacOS X Leopard's resolution independence should help with that problem....

Originally Posted by Aron Peterson

That would be 13.3 inches. None of the TFT providers manufacture 12" screens with a resolution higher than 1024x768. If they did I would consider upgrading my screen

Remember you can increase the size of your fonts regardless of what resolution your screen is.

Glossy 12" screen upgrades are available from 3rd parties btw.

mdporter · Apr 28, 2007, 04:28 AM

I've owned the PB 2400, used the powerbook 12" (along with the 15" and currently have a macbook.

If you have the money, to me there is no contest.. .the macbook is a much better value. It's much faster, has better wireless, a much better screen, excellent battery life, higher ram capacity, runs windows via parallels or boot camp. the keyboard is not quite as nice, but is far ahead of the ibook keyboard. Don't forget the built in isight. the macbook also has gig-e, the PB is 10/100.

Yes it does get warm in the lap but not uncomfortably so. The construction on the macbook is solid, one of apple's best.

then there is OS X. Development is going forward with intel chips. The PPC is dead.

Graphics performance is excellent. the 12" does have discreet graphics but come on... an FX5200 isn't fast. You'll be able to do some gaming on the macbook if that is what you like to do.

Aron Peterson · Apr 28, 2007, 08:32 AM

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by wilsonng

Well, the Dell XPS M1210 has a 12.1" screen with 1280x800 resolution.

Yes, but that doesn't count because it's not a 4:3 ratio screen.

Is there a way to increase the font size in the menu bar, application windows, etc.?

Theming. For some reason Apple didn't include obvious controls for that stuff that is easy to do in Windows. I don't really mind higher DPI anyway because one of the major complaints when OS X first came out was how much space onscreen items and text use up.

Aron Peterson · Apr 28, 2007, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by mdporter

the 12" does have discreet graphics but come on... an FX5200 isn't fast. You'll be able to do some gaming on the macbook if that is what you like to do.

Gaming is faster on the PB12 than the MacBook in some cases (COD2, Unreal 2004, etc). No matter what graphics chip you have it will always be called slow in two years time.

boss99er · Apr 28, 2007, 12:37 PM

Yep, i'm going to go with the macbook. Now I just have to start saving. I will need to come up with about $500 more and try to sell off the old computers I have. That will get me closer. Now to find a black C2D macbook for a decent price.

Northeastern292 · Apr 28, 2007, 02:25 PM

Apple made a mistake by ditching the 12" PowerBook.

Sub · Apr 28, 2007, 04:01 PM

I agree, I have a feeling the smallest thing we are going to see for a while is the Macbook, but I really hope I am wrong, I would buy the Intel 12" in a heartbeat if it came out.

My sister just bought a macbook, it feels so much more brittle in my hands than the pb, when you open it, the plastic feeling makes you think it is going to fall apart, I, for one, have a problem with the keyboard, I don't like it, because it is the only one of it's kind, if you use it and any other kinda of keyboard, you tend to type slower to improve accuracy. The only thing I am happy about it is that apple continued to put the CD slot on the side, because when I have the 15" in my lap, I have to lift the laptop up to slip the CD in.

boss99er · Apr 29, 2007, 07:19 PM

Well guess what I got to use today...I got to use a 12" ibook G4. It only had 256 ram and it was running OS 10.4. I was actually kind of impressed. I am sure the powerbook runs even better than that...especially with 1.25 gigs ram. I didnt mind the small screen, but like someone else said, you wouldnt want it for your main computer. I dont know...that made my decision hard again. I was all convinced that the macbook is the way to go...and I am still leaning hard in that direction. Its just that the 1.33 ibook with only 256 ram and OS 10.4 ran better than I would have thought. I would imagine a 1.5 powerbook with 1.25GB ram wouldnt be THAT much worse than a macbook......I could be very wrong though. Just thought I would let you guys know that I actually got to try something similar to the PB12.

Voodoogmr · Apr 29, 2007, 09:41 PM

I'm using my 12" PB G4 right now...sitting in the recliner watching the Monsters HD channel and wirelessly surfing. Absolutely love this laptop. I used an iBook G4 1.33GHz before, but when my wife bought her 15" MBP, I took her PB and am selling my iBook this week. The PB's case feels a lot more solid. It doesn't get scratched as easily as the iBook either.

The keyboard is the best laptop keyboard I've used. I didn't care for the one on the Mackbooks (though the Pros are great).

While I wouldn't want to run Photoshop on it, the 12" display is completely usable for general use. When I need to do graphics, I use the 24" iMac.

rach · Apr 30, 2007, 04:42 AM

The iBook G4 12 inch 1.33 comes with 512 ram on the logic board and supports up to 1.5GB of ram.

Originally Posted by boss99er

Well guess what I got to use today...I got to use a 12" ibook G4. It only had 256 ram and it was running OS 10.4. Its just that the 1.33 ibook with only 256 ram and OS 10.4 ran better than I would have thought.