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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > This is what is new in Panther 7B28

This is what is new in Panther 7B28 (Page 4)
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WJMoore
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Aug 10, 2003, 11:47 PM
 
Originally posted by stew:
They just call it "seeding", and every Apple user is free to join it by becoming an ADC member and purchasing seeding keys or by applying for Customer Seeding.
Wow I didn't even know that existed... too bad they aren't accepting applications at the moment.
     
Burana
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Aug 11, 2003, 04:57 AM
 
Did anybody test if there are improvements in the Unix File System? According to the Apple site, there should be somthing coming.
     
Toyin
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Aug 11, 2003, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by alex_kac:
Couple points to make.

First, its up to APPLE whether or not they want the advertising. Second, YOU gave a customer who wanted the pre-release access to it. The customer did not go and illegally obtain it. And finally, if its illegal - its theft. Putting it in quotes doesn't make it any better. It is NOT a grey area. Its truly either right or wrong. Now, just because some companies don't care if you're doing something wrong because they choose to get the free advertising doesn't make it right in the first place. It just means you can get away with it without feeling too bad. Just like jaywalking is illegal whether or not a cop actually charges you with it. Just like a white lie is still a lie even though "it doesn't hurt anybody".

So although you are justifying it - just like many people do (and in fact I do as well on occasion) - doesn't cover up the fact that its white collar crime. Its just acceptable to you and possibly even to Apple to an extent.

So my point here is - don't justify it. Don't cover it up. Call it what it is. I personally can live with a few white lies and a few blatant ones when I feel its the right thing to do for that circumstance - but I don't cover it up. I know its a lie either way and I deal with it.

So no, I'm not trying to be a morality officer here - just trying to get people to call a theft a theft. You can deal with the truth as you see fit and I have no place in your own dealing with it - but I do believe the truth should be said and not some cover ups.
Well said
-Toyin
13" MBA 1.8ghz i7
"It's all about the rims that ya got, and the rims that ya coulda had"
S.T. 1995
     
quadgrande
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Aug 11, 2003, 10:31 AM
 
Originally posted by alex_kac:
Couple points to make.
Agreed we should call an apple an apple.

I'm getting tired of discussing the morality of a Panther discussion. We have two options here:

1) Discuss Panther
2) Don't discuss Panther

This choice should be made by the mods of Macnn. Since the mods choose option #1, you, as an individual, can still choose option #2.

Since we are discussing Panther, how about we all agree not to discuss the source of our Panther or whether or not we're violating the NDA? That means:

1) No "You stole it so you don't get to complain" comments. If you only want positive comments, the discussion will be quite boring. Discussing Panther means DISCUSSING PANTHER.
2) No "Apple's going to pull your membership because you violated the NDA" comments. We're aware of the NDA. We choose to ignore it. Get over it.
3) No "Apple's going to pull all seeds if you keep on..." comments. If, as an ADC member, you're offended by talk about Panther, let Apple know we're violating their NDA policy, and then don't contribute to the discussion.
4) No "How dare you, who do you think you are commenting on a pre-release" comments. We KNOW it's pre-release and will get better. Move on.

Agreed?
     
naphtali
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Aug 11, 2003, 11:00 AM
 
Problem there.... What gives ADC members (who should very well be the only ones with legal access to the builds) the right to so flippantly ignore the NDA they basically swore to comply with? Sounds like a paradox to me. Unless of course, you are talking about getting your information from pirates, which then is a not so legal matter altogether...

I can actually see from some of your perspectives, being very curious about the future of Mac OS X myself. But think about it this way - if there's a serious, widespread violation of the NDA, and Apple halts or restricts seeding, and developers don't get to test their products as before, who really 'benefits'?

What goes around comes around. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned element of surprise anyway?
     
quadgrande
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Aug 11, 2003, 11:46 AM
 
What gives ADC members (who should very well be the only ones with legal access to the builds) the right to so flippantly ignore the NDA they basically swore to comply with?
They have no right. I agree with you. But we all know this. Why bring it up in thread after thread? Repeated warnings serve no purpose. Contact Apple. Contact Macnn mods.

This issue is between Apple and the individual. My recommendation would be for you to contact Apple directly, and report the individuals violating the NDA if you're concerned with loosing your seeds. Another alternative is to lobby Macnn to not allow any illegal discussions. Peppering discussion with complaints is irritating and repetitive. We all understand the reality of the situation. Repeating warnings serve no purpose.

if there's a serious, widespread violation of the NDA, and Apple halts or restricts seeding, and developers don't get to test their products as before, who really 'benefits'?
Apple would be shooting their own foot if they stopped or restricted seeding of OS X to developers. Not to mention the fact that ADC members pay upwards of $500 minimum per year to receive these seeds. Some pay $3000 per year. Apple would lose this revenue. And the biggest reason you see discussion on Panther, IMHO, is Apple provides no legal outlet/forum to discuss seed issues.

I agree with your argument that these facts do not alter the reality that ADC members accept these terms when they join. But we're all aware of this fact. It has been discussed time and time again. Repeated discussions serve no purpose

Whatever happened to the good old fashioned element of surprise anyway?
Surprise! Your applications don't work with Panther! Take Macromedia's products for example. The more people, the more bugs discovered. The more bugs discovered, the faster they can be resolved. The faster they can be resolved, the faster the product is available to market. The faster the product is available to market.....Who benefits?

The bottom line is, if you're an ADC member who feels it is his/her obligation to prevent the pirating and/or discussion of pre-release builds under NDA, peppering the discussion with moral arguments is not the most effective solution. Contact Macnn and complain. Report the discussion to Apple so they can exert pressure on Macnn. Which brings me back to my original suggestion:

1) Discuss Panther (and stop complaining about it)
2) Don't discuss Panther ( and do the right thing)

This thread has already spent almost its entire life discussing the moral implications of discussing its real topic. Apple doesn't provide an outlet to discuss the topic ( I have made this request). So there's nowhere, I guess. Who benefits?
     
naphtali
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Aug 11, 2003, 12:19 PM
 
Really, if you know that it isn't anyone's right to go against the NDA after agreeing to it, doesn't it cast some doubt on the legality of these threads? Or are you telling me that it's okay to bend rules just because you don't understand them and think they are superfluous?

Anyhow, yeah, it's an issue between Apple and the individual, but really, it has to start somewhere in the community. The Mac community really has to learn that such leaks may ultimately result in the icky scenario described in my prior post. That perhaps, is the biggest use for "repeated warnings" - to raise the much needed awareness and abolish the crippling ignorance that may ruin the entire seeding process.

Apple does have adequate feedback channels for beta testers - bugreporter.apple.com and even apple.com/macosx/feedback (hell now this even includes an option for sending feedback on 10.3 DP). There really isn't any necessity to "discuss" bugs; it either works or it doesn't. And if you wish to add on to your heads-up, bugreporter allows you to do stuff like suggest workarounds etc. In short, the measures are enough. The way I see it, a more logical explanation for these "discussions" is the natural want to be popular (through the illegal dissemination of information no less), and perhaps even a failure on Apple’s part to provide a more human interface to report bugs, one that actually responds humanly. That said, I need to emphasize that those feedback channels are more than enough, and if you do look at the current threads discussion 10.3 betas, I can very safely say that none of them will be as useful to Apple as the bugreporter filings are. So… Useful for? You?


And as for discovering bugs in applications… Well, that’s what seeding to developers is for, isn’t it? I’m very sure that even while developers are unable to find all of the bugs by themselves, the quality of bug reports by full-fledged developers (and I don’t claim to be one) is very much greater than those found here. Just look at the petty issues raised here. Think about it… Are these discussions really going to be *that* useful to developers? How many of them really bookmark and read this thread? Do they really have to when they have seeding access? Or whoops… maybe they’re here to leak information! I can really safely assure you that any bitching and whining here isn’t going to make a difference. If you do have seeding access, report any boo-boos straight to bugreporter, the Mac OS X feedback site, or straight to the third-party developers. That’s the surest way of giving them your feedback, without having them sift through pages after pages of whining to ultimately find nothing. Sure, these threads may be fun and exciting, but I can’t help but ask again – useful to who? Curious young ones?

Yes, your understanding of binary logic does indeed impress me, even while it’s very obviously yes or no. But the point here is, while MacNN may clamp down on such threads, or heck the government might even outlaw these discussions, but they will still go on without proper understanding of the reasoning behind such rules.

There has to be a community effort in respecting Apple’s development process, not one forced onto the people. As long as there's such a thread, there has to be a reminder to respect Apple's true wishes.

In conclusion, please do not assume that there are not enough outlets for developer feedback – you either aren’t one, or heard some bullshit, or just are blind. Furthermore, just consider how many such “beta testers” are mere thrill-seekers… And then think of the help they’ll render Apple and the third-party developers. Yes it’s nice to know what’s going on. But does it really help? And thus, does your argument really hold?

There... A nicely derailed thread. I don’t mean to be a party-pooper really, I actually find such threads really exciting myself… But it just goes against Apple’s wishes.
( Last edited by naphtali; Aug 11, 2003 at 12:29 PM. )
     
quadgrande
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Aug 11, 2003, 12:52 PM
 
doesn't it cast some doubt on the legality of these threads?
It does. Macnn should not allow them. Apple should not allow Macnn to have them.

Apple does have adequate feedback channels for beta testers - bugreporter.apple.com
Apple does NOT have adequate DISCUSSSION channels for seed testers.


There really isn't any necessity to "discuss" bugs
Have you ever run into the scenario where something worked on one computer and not another?

In conclusion, please do not assume that there are not enough outlets for developer feedback – you either aren’t one, or heard some bullshit, or just are blind.
The only outlet is to report the bug. This outlet is not sufficient in my opinion. The technical support incidents included with ADC membership do not apply to seeds.

But does it really help? And thus, does your argument really hold?
I think it does help. As legitimate developers discuss issues, they are brought to light and solved more quickly. This paradigm is the same as scientific cooperation. There should be a discussion board for ADC members provided by Apple. Apple should peruse this board periodically for feedback. Bugreporter should always be used to report bugs to Apple, however.
     
ApeInTheShell
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Aug 11, 2003, 03:27 PM
 
Shouldn't problems with Dreamweaver be taken up with Macromedia?
     
quadgrande
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Aug 11, 2003, 04:09 PM
 
Shouldn't problems with Dreamweaver be taken up with Macromedia?
I don't think so in this case. Dreamweaver in Jaguar suffers from none of the issues I've experienced in Panther. The OS change has created the problem.

I'm sure Apple will work it out, as I don't think they want to release another OS where manufacturers have to release updates for products to function.

Maybe they won't. I seem to remember a lot of people had to update their products for Jaguar, nobody major, though. Macromedia would then have to maintain two versions of code. One for Panther and one for Jaguar.
     
JLL
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Aug 11, 2003, 04:52 PM
 
Originally posted by ApeInTheShell:
Shouldn't problems with Dreamweaver be taken up with Macromedia?
No, but Apple seeds Mac OS X 10.3 so Macromedia can either fix their apps or report bugs to Apple.

The seeds are meant for developers so they can test their apps against the new OS, and I think that Apple would prefer to hear bug reports about specific apps from the app developers - not the users.

Developers usually have a better idea of where the bug is
JLL

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naphtali
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Aug 11, 2003, 05:43 PM
 
Originally posted by quadgrande:
It does. Macnn should not allow them. Apple should not allow Macnn to have them.
Should you?
And as I said, disallowing it is one thing, and understanding from the community is another.


Originally posted by quadgrande:
Apple does NOT have adequate DISCUSSSION channels for seed testers.
Care to elaborate? You don't seem to know the bugreporting process...


Originally posted by quadgrande:

Have you ever run into the scenario where something worked on one computer and not another?
Uhhuh... Which is why you are asked, among many, many more things, if and how the problems is reproducable, under what circumstances yadda yadda... You haven't seen the interface have you?


Originally posted by quadgrande:
The only outlet is to report the bug. This outlet is not sufficient in my opinion. The technical support incidents included with ADC membership do not apply to seeds.
How do you know? And what kind of technical support are you rendering developers then?


Originally posted by quadgrande:
I think it does help. As legitimate developers discuss issues, they are brought to light and solved more quickly.
By sifting through lengthy threads peppered with arguments on NDA , little cheers and jeers and then the boo-boos? Yeah thanks. The point is, developers who should be testing their apps already get to test their apps, and you really aren't adding any value. If you still think you are, please elaborate.


Originally posted by quadgrande:
This paradigm is the same as scientific cooperation. There should be a discussion board for ADC members provided by Apple. Apple should peruse this board periodically for feedback. Bugreporter should always be used to report bugs to Apple, however.
Oh now think about it... If there's a discussion board for ADC members, would you be getting any of this info? Wouldn't that sadden you deeply? Cos you really don't sound like an ADC member... But well yes, even while I don't see an explicit need to discuss bugs with one another, if it floats your boat then by all means...
And as I said, these threads are completely worthless to anyone more than mere curious bystanders. Review the quality of these threads and you'll know just what I mean.

So please stop whining, "Bu..bu...but my thread does them well", and cease using ignorance as a justification of your wanton curiosity. The main question you should consider when you argue is, useful for who? I completely fail to see a way where developers stand to gain more than rumor mongers or excited little children.


Originally posted by JLL:
No, but Apple seeds Mac OS X 10.3 so Macromedia can either fix their apps or report bugs to Apple.

The seeds are meant for developers so they can test their apps against the new OS, and I think that Apple would prefer to hear bug reports about specific apps from the app developers - not the users.

Developers usually have a better idea of where the bug is
Ah finally... thank you.
( Last edited by naphtali; Aug 11, 2003 at 05:52 PM. )
     
quadgrande
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Aug 11, 2003, 06:57 PM
 
Cos you really don't sound like an ADC member...
I've been an ADC select member for 2 years. You're statement about stopping the whining is what I'm really trying to accomplish.

Let's move on.
     
iFix Rene
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Aug 11, 2003, 10:45 PM
 
springloaded folders dont work from the
Findertoolbar (not sidebar) I have heard

could someone with acces please file a
bugreport, I want this functionality
If it ain't broken... Fix it!©
     
Nebrie
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Aug 12, 2003, 12:49 AM
 
ADC developers claiming it's perfectly alright to circumvent NDA agreements. So you're giving us permission to circumvent licensing agreements for your software? Thanks.
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker  (op)
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Aug 12, 2003, 01:59 AM
 
Are you bozos going to turn this into a "your breaking your NDA" discussion again?

WHO CARES!

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
     
diamondsw
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Aug 12, 2003, 02:36 AM
 
I would just like to make two observations:

1) The previous thread was closed because it devolved into an NDA flame war. The MacNN moderators seem to want to at least modestly encourage legitimate discussion.

2) Think Secret has posted far more detailed information than is what is in this thread. Orders of magnitude more Mac (and other) users will see the Think Secret article than this thread. Apple has willfully turned a blind eye to it. They seem to want to at least modestly encorage interest and discussion.

2) I'll bet all of you drive 55 MPH on the interstate, and come to a complete stop at stop signs in the middle of nowhere.

Think about it.

*yawn*
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 05:48 AM
 
If you're an ADC member then you really should respect the sanctity of the NDA rather than pander to whatever tendencies you might have. You're stopping the whining how? By your Policy of Appeasement? Or perhaps you just can't think of any way to present some more warped logic?

I won't be posting much more here, frankly because I've very much said all that there is.

And really, you guys should care about the NDA, simply because it affects the quality of your software in one way or another. Give some thought to it and you'll discover why.

And yes, there are other more concise sources of information around, but I can assure you that Apple is not turning a blind eye to it. Hint: Look out for Cease and Desist notices here and there.

If you frequent ThinkSecret, you might also want to think about why 7B34 has not been posted on the ADC website yet. Yes, it is that serious. So please stop being so selfish.

It is sad, then, that the moderators too do not understand the rationale behind the NDA. Perhaps they should take some time off and actually read some of our grouses and from there work out some posting guidelines. The NDA should be adhered to, and not broken under implicit encouragement.

Again, I'm sorry for spoiling your nice little party, but it's really one that shouldn't have been.

In closing, I honestly hope the Mac community can be more mature and consider more aspects of the issues rather than focus on their own wants. It's only right that way.
( Last edited by naphtali; Aug 12, 2003 at 05:58 AM. )
     
Diggory Laycock
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Aug 12, 2003, 07:28 AM
 
If apple don't want the seeds leaked, couldn't they hack quartz so that the window manager composted some uniqueID under the window contents? Like the omniweb Unregistered thingy.

Of course this would require some form of 'product registration' that couldn't be skipped.

I realise that this is OffTopic, but we left the rails on page one.
You know it makes sense. ☼ ☼ ☼ Growl.
     
Peter
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Aug 12, 2003, 07:31 AM
 

Why are people complaining about the NDA? Does it hurt them? no, so STFU.
Whats the chance of continuing Panther discussion now?
we don't have time to stop for gas
     
TC
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Aug 12, 2003, 08:00 AM
 
Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
Whats the chance of continuing Panther discussion now?
Zero, the naysayers have pulled an interesting thread off the tracks yet again.
It's a shame most of you guys don't have wives/girlfriends then you would be so sick of arguing and bickering that you wouldn't bother doing it in here.
Nothing to see, move along.
     
Brazuca
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:13 AM
 
Originally posted by diamondsw:
<snip>
2) I'll bet all of you drive 55 MPH on the interstate, and come to a complete stop at stop signs in the middle of nowhere.
[/B]
I drive usually at 88MPH, but thats because I'm pretty sure that They Are All After Me™.

And everytime I come to a STOP sign, I asked what would they want me to stop doing. I don't get it. But at 88MPH, the issue is resolved quickly enough.

Seriously, you guys are a bunch of nuns.
"It's about time trees did something good insted of just standing there LIKE JERKS!" :)
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:36 AM
 
Originally posted by PeterClark2002:

Why are people complaining about the NDA? Does it hurt them? no, so STFU.
Whats the chance of continuing Panther discussion now?
Heh I guess I'm probably the most hated MacNN member of the moment...

But hey, isn't it the whole idea to actually stop discussing Panther cos the NDA says so?
     
Peter
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:41 AM
 
you aren't hated.
we don't have time to stop for gas
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:42 AM
 
Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
If apple don't want the seeds leaked, couldn't they hack quartz so that the window manager composted some uniqueID under the window contents? Like the omniweb Unregistered thingy.

Of course this would require some form of 'product registration' that couldn't be skipped.

I realise that this is OffTopic, but we left the rails on page one.
And then have people complain of invasion of privacy etc?
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
you aren't hated.
You honestly have no idea how relieving that is. Well maybe I just aren't worth hate.

Anyway, yeah, please stop discussing Panther... Think of developers who really need seeding and might lose their access just because people want to satisfy their curiosity. If you need a concrete example, just look at the purported 7B34 build.
( Last edited by naphtali; Aug 12, 2003 at 09:58 AM. )
     
Diggory Laycock
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:48 AM
 
Originally posted by naphtali:
And then have people complain of invasion of privacy etc?
It doesn't invade their privacy - it simply means they couldn't post screens without exposing the original leaker (to apple) - how is that invasion of privacy?
You know it makes sense. ☼ ☼ ☼ Growl.
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 09:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
It doesn't invade their privacy - it simply means they couldn't post screens without exposing the original leaker (to apple) - how is that invasion of privacy?
Honestly I don't know.. It was just an off-the-cuff remark... But looking at how fiercely people defend their rights... , I'd say that that would be a very possible response instead.

Oh but yes, I do agree that this is a very unique solution that Apple should adopt. I'll post some kind of feedback.
     
Adam Betts
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Aug 12, 2003, 10:44 AM
 
Originally posted by naphtali:
Heh I guess I'm probably the most hated MacNN member of the moment...

But hey, isn't it the whole idea to actually stop discussing Panther cos the NDA says so?
Hey, everyone doesn't hate you. All of the points you made are very good one. quadgrande is well known for his ego so don't mind him.

quadgrande, if you attack me or anyone else again, I'll file a report to ADC about you breaking the NDA. The evidences is overwhelming. Just think before you type
     
brainchild2b
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Aug 12, 2003, 11:25 AM
 
We're been breaking the NDA for the last 15 years of mac development. It's always been this way. If you don't like it report it to Apple and move along. but don't come here, yell at others about posting, then proceed to read all the juicy details for yourself. If your going to be "moral" do it all the way.

But most importantly, just go away.
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 11:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Hey, everyone doesn't hate you. All of the points you made are very good one. quadgrande is well known for his ego so don't mind him.

quadgrande, if you attack me or anyone else again, I'll file a report to ADC about you breaking the NDA. The evidences is overwhelming. Just think before you type
Hey thanks for the vote of confidence! Makes me so ashamed of the little run-in I had with you...

And I'm so glad that I haven't been merely maundering all this while



Originally posted by brainchild2b
We're been breaking the NDA for the last 15 years of mac development. It's always been this way. If you don't like it report it to Apple and move along. but don't come here, yell at others about posting, then proceed to read all the juicy details for yourself. If your going to be "moral" do it all the way.

But most importantly, just go away.
We? And besides, just because a rule's been broken for eons doesn't mean that it's any less significant. If anything, it's just evidence of an inability to comprehend intentions.

Juicy details? Boy... I hate to tell you this but I'm seeing the real thing myself, and legally too! And it's not like I'm selfish in wanting to keep all this Panther goodness to myself; It's just that in these "15 years", I haven't seen Apple this serious about limiting seeding, and I am very apprehensive about it being practiced. It's really going to be crappy if that happens due to some kids choosing to post these "juicy details" under the guise of bug reporting.
( Last edited by naphtali; Aug 12, 2003 at 11:35 AM. )
     
cybergoober
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Aug 12, 2003, 11:58 AM
 
Originally posted by naphtali:
... Think of developers who really need seeding and might lose their access just because people want to satisfy their curiosity. If you need a concrete example, just look at the purported 7B34 build.
Doesn't Apple seed builds internally quite often? So someone at Apple leaked some info about an internal build and all of a sudden Apple's limiting seeding?

I'm not flaming you here. You do make some good points. I just think your "concrete example" is flawed. Apple doesn't make _every single_ build available to developers. I, for one, happen to appreciate your concern. I just think you would be better off reporting these discussions (not just here, BTW) to Apple and let Apple Legal decide if they should be taking place or not.
     
naphtali
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Aug 12, 2003, 12:11 PM
 
Originally posted by cybergoober:
Doesn't Apple seed builds internally quite often? So someone at Apple leaked some info about an internal build and all of a sudden Apple's limiting seeding?

I'm not flaming you here. You do make some good points. I just think your "concrete example" is flawed. Apple doesn't make _every single_ build available to developers. I, for one, happen to appreciate your concern. I just think you would be better off reporting these discussions (not just here, BTW) to Apple and let Apple Legal decide if they should be taking place or not.
Well yes, I agree with you that not all builds are seeded to all developers, but I think you'd agree that the widespread unavailability of this milestone is a cause for concern, and that the possibility of a restriction on seeding is very real.

And yes again, there has to be feedback to Apple on this, but I must reiterate that there has to be a community effort in raising awareness on the issue, since rules alone will not solve the issue of leaked information altogether. What I'm trying to do here is to really explain why Panther discussions should cease altogether (and I'm sorry if I've failed in anyway at all), rather than just squeal on you guys and have the mods or Apple cease this thread, only to see another one spring up a couple of days later.
     
brainchild2b
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Aug 12, 2003, 01:07 PM
 
Well more than often Apple gives copies of this to people they do business with who aren't bound to the NDA. Example: Good friends, associates at other fortune 500 companies, employees who give it to others legally, and many other people who aren't developers. This is one of the reasons Apple doesn't crack down on it is because much of the information comes from people who don't have an NDA. Just like they streamed it at the freaking keynote, to EVERYONE not just for the elite ADC members.

I suggest you go somewhere and run away, don't post here. Your views and opinions are ones that nobody gives a crap about. And if they are you should start you own thread and NOT post in this one. This thread is NOT about the NDA or your ADC status. This thread is about Panther. If you don't like the site contents your free to complain to the moderators here, who allow this. If you don't like the content this is NOT the site for you.

Originally posted by naphtali:
Well yes, I agree with you that not all builds are seeded to all developers, but I think you'd agree that the widespread unavailability of this milestone is a cause for concern, and that the possibility of a restriction on seeding is very real.

And yes again, there has to be feedback to Apple on this, but I must reiterate that there has to be a community effort in raising awareness on the issue, since rules alone will not solve the issue of leaked information altogether. What I'm trying to do here is to really explain why Panther discussions should cease altogether (and I'm sorry if I've failed in anyway at all), rather than just squeal on you guys and have the mods or Apple cease this thread, only to see another one spring up a couple of days later.
     
diamondsw
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Aug 12, 2003, 03:58 PM
 
Originally posted by naphtali:
You honestly have no idea how relieving that is. Well maybe I just aren't worth hate.

Anyway, yeah, please stop discussing Panther... Think of developers who really need seeding and might lose their access just because people want to satisfy their curiosity. If you need a concrete example, just look at the purported 7B34 build.
When has Apple ever done multiple seeds of an upcoming OS until now? They did one seed of Jaguar, and before that single monolithic "Developer Previews" every six months, etc. They have never before released CD updates like this on such a frequent basis, and there is no reason to expect every single build to be seeded. I'm amazed they seeded 7B21 and 7B28, and would not be surprised to see another seed until GM, and I don't think it has anything to do with this little thread. It's far more out of character for Apple to seed extra builds than to withhold this one build.
     
diamondsw
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Aug 12, 2003, 04:10 PM
 
Originally posted by naphtali:
Juicy details? Boy... I hate to tell you this but I'm seeing the real thing myself, and legally too! And it's not like I'm selfish in wanting to keep all this Panther goodness to myself; It's just that in these "15 years", I haven't seen Apple this serious about limiting seeding, and I am very apprehensive about it being practiced. It's really going to be crappy if that happens due to some kids choosing to post these "juicy details" under the guise of bug reporting.
Bull. In fact, this is the most *liberal* I've seen them about seeding at least since Steve Jobs returned. They have never in my experience seeded full builds this widely this fast. It's usually more like a single build per major release for general seeding, and certain developers may get more frequent ones.

Nothing personal, I just don't see any evidence that they are restricting seeds, and plenty that they are expanding it.
     
JLL
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Aug 12, 2003, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Well more than often Apple gives copies of this to people they do business with who aren't bound to the NDA. Example: Good friends, associates at other fortune 500 companies, employees who give it to others legally, and many other people who aren't developers. This is one of the reasons Apple doesn't crack down on it is because much of the information comes from people who don't have an NDA. Just like they streamed it at the freaking keynote, to EVERYONE not just for the elite ADC members.
What on earth does the WWDC keynote have to do with this?

The keynote was open to the press and the only thing at WWDC not covered by your NDA.

Apple stopped Safari seeding when it went too far, and they are now threatening to do it with Panther - that's why many ADC members get a little scared.
JLL

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JLL
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Aug 12, 2003, 04:32 PM
 
Originally posted by diamondsw:
Bull. In fact, this is the most *liberal* I've seen them about seeding at least since Steve Jobs returned. They have never in my experience seeded full builds this widely this fast. It's usually more like a single build per major release for general seeding, and certain developers may get more frequent ones.

Nothing personal, I just don't see any evidence that they are restricting seeds, and plenty that they are expanding it.
Try and read the last seed note.
JLL

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Socially Awkward Solo
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Aug 12, 2003, 05:18 PM
 
The next person to say NDA is a big fat loser!

hopefully that will do it.

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Zimphire
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Aug 12, 2003, 05:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
The next person to say NDA is a big fat loser!

hopefully that will do it.
I haven't heard anyone say it yet.
     
arekkusu
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Aug 12, 2003, 07:36 PM
 
Originally posted by diamondsw:
When has Apple ever done multiple seeds of an upcoming OS until now? They did one seed of Jaguar, and before that single monolithic "Developer Previews" every six months, etc.
Um. This is exactly the same as Jaguar. There were seeds every week or two, more often near the end.
     
BatmanPPC
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Aug 12, 2003, 07:49 PM
 
en dee ay

Sorry, I just had to.
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Zimphire
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Aug 12, 2003, 08:02 PM
 
Originally posted by BatmanPPC:
en dee ay

Sorry, I just had to.
     
takai
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Aug 12, 2003, 08:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Melchizedek:
I don't have ANY version of Panther, but I do OWN an academic version of FCP4, and I was just curious if it worked any better than it does now, not that there is anything WRONG with it now, but I hope to see speed increases across the board with all applications and I wanted to know how FCP4 was affected, if at all. You know, I'm not the only one on this board, let alone this thread, asking about compatibiliy issues between Panther and applications. Why don't you scold them too?
And so we can get back on topic:
FCP4 was broken under 7A202 as i posted in the last thread. But according to one user's quick peek under 7B21 its fixed. But who knows really, they did not check deply enough for my liking.

I cant currently check due to stupidly low download limits on DSL in Australia (2gb per month) and im currently waiting for my copy of 7B28 to come in via my boss at Uni. Yes i am an ADC member, but remember some of us dont have unlimited bandwith and have to appease the masters of bandwith where we work.

Ill see if it works properly under 7B28 hopefully later this week.

EDIT: Call me stupid, but yes i do use 7A202 as my primary build on my PowerBook. So this is an interesting one for me. I have no issues with most stuff and FCP is my one biggest issue.
EDIT2: Out of coincidence Melchizedek is what my PC is called.
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gorgonzola
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Aug 12, 2003, 11:31 PM
 
This is only continuing a thread derailment, but I think it may be of some limited interest to people arguing about this. This issue of Apple not providing a sanctioned outlet to discuss Mac OS X prerelease builds was something people were complaining about the time Jaguar builds started leaking. As a result, I contacted one of the senior people at Apple WWDR (Developer Relations) and asked if Apple would have any interest at all in perhaps collaborating on a private seeding discussion forum open only to ADC members. (In theory, people would have to provide a valid ADC Select or Premier ID # to be able to view the forum. We needed Apple to be able to verify those user accounts.) Obviously Apple doesn't need our help, but we thought that this solution would require the most minimal demands on their resources, so they might be inclined to try it. Unfortunately, they weren't interested at the time, and showed no real interest in providing a forum like that of any kind.

That said, use of prerelease software is so rampant that trying to limit discussion of it on a board like this would do nothing but screw us over. It wouldn't reduce piracy or make people respect NDAs; it would just drive traffic to other sites. We obviously draw the line at actual piracy, of course. We've always been more than happy to lock, edit, or delete posts or threads that Apple has deemed inappropriate. I remember receiving two C&D emails, one for a 10.0 thread and one for a 10.1 thread, I think. The threads had lots and lots of screenshots in them, and we removed them. Maybe Apple has just given up on trying to stop discussion, because as diamondsw said, they've been seeding more than ever.

Anyway, you can get back to topic. That was some history of the issue and some of the logic behind our policy in allowing discussion of prerelease Mac OS X builds.
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quadgrande
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Aug 13, 2003, 12:05 AM
 
To quote my favorite egoist, it is not advisable, Adam, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrasing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

For the record, here's the 'attack'....

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...0&pagenumber=7

Nice job editing your posts about getting 7B28 illegally from your friend.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...0&pagenumber=1

It shows your true nature. But can you edit all your comments about Panther in time?
( Last edited by quadgrande; Aug 13, 2003 at 12:26 AM. )
     
alex_kac
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Aug 13, 2003, 02:36 AM
 
Originally posted by quadgrande:
It does. Macnn should not allow them. Apple should not allow Macnn to have them.
Apple does NOT have adequate DISCUSSSION channels for seed testers.

Have you ever run into the scenario where something worked on one computer and not another?

The only outlet is to report the bug. This outlet is not sufficient in my opinion. The technical support incidents included with ADC membership do not apply to seeds.

I think it does help. As legitimate developers discuss issues, they are brought to light and solved more quickly. This paradigm is the same as scientific cooperation. There should be a discussion board for ADC members provided by Apple. Apple should peruse this board periodically for feedback. Bugreporter should always be used to report bugs to Apple, however.
My personal opinion is that though I am an ADC member and will not discuss Panther publicly, I DO like reading threads about it. Why? Because Apple has no discussion forum; because there is no real good way to actually find out what the changes are. So yeah, I rely on the people who either break their NDAs or pirates to find that info out for me

But anyhow...yes, even MS has newsgroups dedicated to beta members of their software to discuss issues. There are some mailing lists for this, but those are of dubious quality.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Aug 13, 2003, 04:34 AM
 
Originally posted by takai:
And so we can get back on topic:
FCP4 was broken under 7A202 as i posted in the last thread. But according to one user's quick peek under 7B21 its fixed. But who knows really, they did not check deply enough for my liking.
FCP4 had broken text-labels and UI-elements under 7A202. It was usable up to a point.

Under 7B21 the UI-are fixed and editing is fine. However it is still crippled in several ways:

- When using the arrows to move frame by frame you get a General Error 49 (every time, though it still moves one frame )

- You can NOT EXPORT. Not at all. Not to a QuickTime, not to the Camera. General Errors again.

- I can not get sound out on FireWire. This means that I can't even play through my project to save it to tape. Great :/

I'm hoping 7b28 will correct some of these, but download is way slow

This was just to bring the thread back on track. And to Naphtali and the other naysayers: You DO NOT represent Apple. What makes you think that you are so special that you can start acting on their behalf? Please, go away and hide in a corner. Or tell Apple what we are doing. If they want to take action, that's fine, but don't act like Apple appointed you to be their private police force.

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JLL
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Aug 13, 2003, 04:37 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
This was just to bring the thread back on track. And to Naphtali and the other naysayers: You DO NOT represent Apple. What makes you think that you are so special that you can start acting on their behalf? Please, go away and hide in a corner. Or tell Apple what we are doing. If they want to take action, that's fine, but don't act like Apple appointed you to be their private police force.
I think he's acting on his own behalf. Some off us actually need the seeds, and it would be bad if Apple stops the seeding because of too many leaks.
JLL

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- - e r i k - -
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Aug 13, 2003, 04:50 AM
 
Originally posted by JLL:
I think he's acting on his own behalf. Some off us actually need the seeds, and it would be bad if Apple stops the seeding because of too many leaks.
There are no indications that they will. Move along now...

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