[Athens]

**** AMERICA, that’s all I can say. After reading the ******** in the post I made about praying for New Orleans, and worst the comments of Americans in the lobby of my Seattle Hotel, and worst how the relief is being handled, all I can say is **** America. First off shame on those that had to picker in a post that was originally meant to offer support a city I knew was going to be devastated. Second and this one rattles me, and my boyfriend agrees too which just took me my total shock, the zero tolerance on looting for food and water. I cant believe the comments I herd over this. In the lobby of the hotel I was staying they had CNN on the entire time and they where talking about how desperate the situation was. Four days no food and water in 100+ temperatures and no sign of any help. People looting food and water from stores, they had the gal to say they should be arrested and put in prison. My jaw dropped, I could not believe that this discussion was taking place in front of me. I know it was because the people involved in the looting is black, had it been white people it would have been a discussion of how they have no choice. Fact is any one of us in a position like that would loot for food and water, the essentials of life. I wouldn’t stand by after 4 days and die under a belief that help might come, I would be looking for water and food. And so would any of you who agree that the people stealing food and water should go to jail or be shot. That’s as pathetic as it can be. And this relief effort is crap, stop trying to relocated people, Start dropping food and water by helicopter to any place that has people gathered. A helicopter dropping AID is more useful and more helpful delivered essentials to people then wasting trips picking up 8 people to relocated to some other place. Get the essentials there first, then relocated. Second Canada and im sure other countries are ready to help, we have offered to send troops, aid, cops and other resources to the area, yet the US has not accepted this. Our DART team can produce enough clean water from the worst conditions for 100 000 people. Our health units have medicines ready for those in need, im just sick we aren’t being utilized and I know for a fact the US is having major man power problems right now and could use the extra help. Why is your federal government putting pride ahead of your citizens. Im watching this every day on CNN, and im sick beyond belief how this is all being handled. To much politics, to much bureaucracy, to much pride, not enough aid. Worst of all the attitudes from other Americans who are not affected by this. Oh well that’s there fault for living in a city that was unsafe, oh its there fault for not leaving, shoot those people stealing water, fix the oil rigs I cant afford these high gas prices. **** America. And I don’t care if I get banned for this post, because some of you inconsiderate or dense idiots need to read this.

[Captain Obvious]

You're funny and stupid.

And you sig is still too big

[Randman]

I'd read it, but the spelling sucks and there's no paragraphs.

And yes, your sig is too big.

[Link]

What disgusts me:

The fact that the government is quicker at getting military and such to kick ass out there instead of sending food/water/other forms of help. I keep hearing about more and more national guard... WTF these are people not animals..

Too much "We're doing this and that" and not much "done"

All the busses being sent to Texas without any word they'd have to go somewhere else, and then the cops brute forcing those who get there away.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

You're funny and stupid.

And you sig is still too big

You're intelligent and you always show it.


As for the U.S. being racsist, it't part of their culture but you'll never get them to admit it.

[JoshuaZ]

All I got out of that post was a whole lot of ******************************s.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

I agree that everything about this storm is being handled and reported rather poorly. While I believe it is necessary to loot for water and food from STORES I don't feel any sympathy for the city when I hear of rapes, beatings and random shootings in shelters.

[Athens]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/....ap/index.html

Australia offered to send some aid, yet to be accepted too.

[:dragonflypro:]

I am somehow guess the ACTUAL dealing with it and being an Armchair FEMA director are just a little different.

Could this be handled better or more effectively? Sure.

But this is not gonna be one of those Star Trek 'tie up galactic disaster' in the last 8 minutes of the episode.

This is the real deal and **** happens that is unpredictable and flat beyond out control.

Grow up, chil'ens.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Can you imagine the outpouring of support from the rest of the US if L.A. which is full of white celebrities flooded.

[Athens]

I think this should be a wake up call for LA if it ever has that big one, that help could be 10 days long, don't count on the support of your fellow Americans as they will blame you for living there knowing the risks. Yup a wake up call.

[air]

jusstht take a cooldown pill sthillly

[greenamp]

wall of text.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by greenamp

wall of text.

What, no name calling?!!?

[dillerX]

****ing STOP already people.

STOP.

Miles upon miles of land have been reclaimed by mother nature as her own. She won, and kicked our ass.

The government doesn't move with lightning speed. You simply can not move that much material, and that many people that fast. It just doesn't happen. They are doing the best they can.

The people on the ground are doing what they can to get this tragedy stopped as soon as possible. It just takes time. Sadly people will die. More than probably needed to.

All the bitching and moaning on here isn't going to get it fixed any faster. Get your ass in a bus, and go and help if you seem to care as much as your mouth does.

[davecom]

I've seen a lot of videos on cable news of the lootings and I almost always see people grabbing non-essential items. For that they should be arrested. One guy grabbed all the fishing rods he could find.

[Warung]

I'm wondering how people who are still stuck down there are supposed to do their grocery shopping or get to food without being considered "looters"? I recon none of the stores are officially opened for business?

If there aren't enough services to supply fresh water etc., what are people supposed to do?

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Question, why didn't these people evacuate the city BEFORE the storm?

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Can you imagine the outpouring of support from the rest of the US if L.A. which is full of white celebrities flooded.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Warung

I'm wondering how people who are still stuck down there are supposed to do their grocery shopping or get to food without being considered "looters"? I recon none of the stores are officially opened for business?

If there aren't enough services to supply fresh water etc., what are people supposed to do?

I argued 20 minutes with a woman about that, at the end of it I just wanted to scream, I could not convince her that its OK to take food and water when you have non for 4 days and no sign of help in a disaster. No no no, its illegal they should be stopped. Like ok what ever.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Question, why didn't these people evacuate the city BEFORE the storm?

Some people couldn't, others thought they could weather it. The emergency plan knew it was impossible for every one to escape, cit of 1.5 million, just was not possible. Tourists got stuck with no way out, poor got stuck, not enough buses in the city to evac that many people.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Question, why didn't these people evacuate the city BEFORE the storm?

Probably because there's always a certain number of folks who can't leave because they're too poor, too old, too sick, etc. and/or who simply refuse to do so because they're stubborn idiots (the vast minority, methinks). As for why those who couldn't leave weren't offered aid/those who wouldn't leave weren't forced by the government - your guess is as good anyone else's.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Question, why didn't these people evacuate the city BEFORE the storm?

I've been thinking about this too.

Even without a car I would have just rented a U-Haul packed up my essentials and bailed. I guess some people just are too scared to move anywhere, even if it means certain doom...

[:dragonflypro:]

The attitude that they (that remained) could weather a C5 hurricane is presumably in line with the same notion that caught so many officials, etc off guard.

All gears were set to hurricane recovery. Recovery. Not ANOTHER disaster. Pre-Mobilization was akin to historical preparation to any large hurricane.

Flooding was not a major concern. It could happen. It was considered, but not seriously.

So when the levy breaks you have a entirely different disaster.

That is why all hell is coming down. Katrina brought and party crasher and the Flood is the bad guy.

Not FEMA.

Not the LA governor.

Not the president.

The flood that broke the levy.

Think people!

[Captain Obvious]

Here’s the thing: A lot of you are stupid, seriously.

I went to Missouri in 93 when I was a freshman in HS to help with the flood relief. Now in the case of this it took about 2 weeks for the floods to really get bad and most of the rivers to crest. Many of the people there had been though floods and storms so they were a little over confident about withstanding the waters as were their area governments. Many didn’t leave or prepare because they’d been there and done that.
Long story short, they weren’t ready even though this thing took a long time to build up.

In comparison, this hurricane had about 3 days notice and it hit an area of land that was below sea level and thought it had faced this scenario before. So since people believed they had seen this before they thought they knew what would happen. The water didn’t just coming in from one side like a river encroaching it just surrounded them. They did not have time or space to prepare areas to help displaced people as the event happened. If they had the hurricane itself would have probably destroyed those preparations. No one could move in until the event was over. And for the record the planning is done by the state or city until such a time where they ask for help. The Feds had nothing to do with this and I believe they were still dealing with Florida from the week previous.

You can’t drop food and water in random locations. First off, it won’t float and if it does you can’t ask people who may or may not swim to go chasing it and possibly drown. Dropping it into crowds is going to cause riots or result in lawsuits. It is better to pick people up and move them to safe locations to attend to them. If you don’t do the distribution in an organized and planned manner it is going to be uglier than the iBook sale in Richmond.

Problem is that there is not a whole lot of safe land area close by to put people because the area is a big lake now. From experience, you can’t just make the water go away with manpower. You have to wait for it to recede on its own. Those retention walls can’t be fixed until it drops and until such a time human intervention can’t help it along very much.

Lastly, scale. This is a huge undertaking. Not many people are experienced in actual flood relief and no one has seen this before on such a massive scale. Even with the tsunami the water pulled back faster than in LA. You can send all the support you want but they won’t be able to get close to where the people who need help. The smartest thing is to move the people you can away from the site (far far inland) and then attend to them.
All they can do is use smaller helicopters that can pick up a few people at a time because the big ones would get caught in electrical poles and wires or blow the people you are trying to save into the water. Huge watercraft that can accommodate more people cannot go in either. There are homes and god knows what other debris under the surface and large boats would get stuck or cause problems costing more lost lives.

Until you get them out of there all the aid in the world isn’t going to help. Give it a week for the people to get out of the area or for the water to recede. Then mass aid can easily flow in. I don’t think your Mounties would fair well in 90 degree heat and 10 feet of water. Plus their horses would probably drown.

I’m sure there’s this huge long history I am unaware of where Canadian homosexuals run disaster relief programs but sadly this time around you are going to have to wait a bit to bring in your extreme makeover team.

[Athens]

if you cant get every one out in 4 days, then you get food and water in. Why the hell can the Media get to all these places and not aid. Your a idiot if you think helicopters cant drop food and water in places where large groups of hungary people have gathered together.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

... I went to Missouri in 93 when I was a freshman in HS to help with the flood relief. Now in the case of this it took about 2 weeks for the floods to really get bad and most of the rivers to crest. Many of the people there had been though floods and storms so they were a little over confident about withstanding the waters as were their area governments. Many didn’t leave or prepare because they’d been there and done that.

I completely agree with the notion that it can be very easy for folks (= regular citizens) to become overconfident, especially if they have (or think they have, respectively) encountered/mastered similar situations before.

But I find it entirely unacceptable to apply that very same explanation to local/state/federal governments (be it the Swiss, Nepalese or the US government, for all that matters) and be done with it. As long as there's an agency dealing with natural disasters, they must be prepared for the worst case - nothing more, nothing less. That's what they're getting paid to do - in this particular case with your tax dollars.

One minor example (and this is not meant to stereotype the entire relief effort!!): If search and rescue missions need to be interrupted at nightfall because helicopters aren't equipped with search lights, then something went horribly wrong. Mistakes like that can not happen - it's not even an option. And if they do occur anyway, they need to be fixed yesterday - not in preparation for the next flood/earthquake/whatever.

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

I’m sure there’s this huge long history I am unaware of where Canadian homosexuals run disaster relief programs but sadly this time around you are going to have to wait a bit to bring in your extreme makeover team.

Even in the most thoughtful posts of yours, you just can't help it, can you?

[Salty]

Right... cause arguing on an online Mac forum is really gona help things.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Athens

if you cant get every one out in 4 days, then you get food and water in. Why the hell can the Media get to all these places and not aid. Your a idiot if you think helicopters cant drop food and water in places where large groups of hungary people have gathered together.

Saigon.

Get some history.

OK, fine, I'll help you out with an accurate comparison.

If people get trampled running for a $50 iBook…

…imagine dropping a case of pop-tarts into a 3 foot deep swimming pool full of people who have had little sleep, waited in 100+ degree heat and 90% humidity, probably are getting mosquito bitten like mad and have eaten next to nothing in 4 days. Oh, not to mention probably lost most of what they own.

OH, and you assume these helicopters are just magically filled with food and know exactly where to take it.

I have to go with Cap, you peeps are not thinking.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Athens

if you cant get every one out in 4 days, then you get food and water in. Why the hell can the Media get to all these places and not aid. Your a idiot if you think helicopters cant drop food and water in places where large groups of hungary people have gathered together.

You are as wrong as wrong can be on that point about dropping food and water from helicopters into a crowd. More people will be killed in the mob scene that follows than will die of dehydration.

In the situation in NOLA, you take food and water where you can find it, whether GWB or anyone else says it's looting. You do what you have to do to survive. Hell, the cops were clearing looters out of the stores and handing out foodstuffs and water themselves to make sure it got distributed fairly and people weren't hoarding.

On the other hand, the minute you think you should be helping yourself to a plasma screen, you need to be jettisoned into the sun. Last time I checked, there's nothing in home electronics that will keep you from dying of thirst.

[Athens]

well ya people would be hurt in the mob now, but 2 days after before all the people converged in a few spots you could have had arm guards, and drops setup, but that never happened and no idea what's taking so long. Look at the 1997 flood in Manitoba, it took 3 days for the Army to mobilize, build a 15 MILE dyke that saved Winnipeg. And who cares about the guy taking home electronics, should be care about the mom with no water for her kid. Whats he going to do with soaked electronics, and even if its totally fine, the store is insured for what ever is going to be taking anyways. Most of the looting going on now is food and water, they where showing people taking water and food, and other guests said they should be locked up. It wasent TVs and electronics on TV.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Athens

well ya people would be hurt in the mob now, but 2 days after before all the people converged in a few spots you could have had arm guards, and drops setup, but that never happened and no idea what's taking so long. Look at the 1997 flood in Manitoba, it took 3 days for the Army to mobilize, build a 15 MILE dyke that saved Winnipeg. And who cares about the guy taking home electronics, should be care about the mom with no water for her kid. Whats he going to do with soaked electronics, and even if its totally fine, the store is insured for what ever is going to be taking anyways. Most of the looting going on now is food and water, they where showing people taking water and food, and other guests said they should be locked up. It wasent TVs and electronics on TV.

In all fairness having lived through the flood of 97 in the peg, this is not at all the same. We had a gradual increase of water, we knew it was coming. We have a flood way, it's only a few K from my house, that goes round the city. It's like having a second river. And we STILL weren't fully prepped. From the sounds of it these people have it WAY worse than we did. Sure roads and stuff like that were a bit wonky outside the city. But the only real humanitarian problems would have been a few people displaced in the core of the city by the river, and people outside the city who were flooded. We aren't bellow sea level, and we're over prepared for what we normally have. The two situations aren't fair to compare.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Athens

well ya people would be hurt in the mob now, but 2 days after before all the people converged in a few spots you could have had arm guards, and drops setup, but that never happened and no idea what's taking so long. Look at the 1997 flood in Manitoba, it took 3 days for the Army to mobilize, build a 15 MILE dyke that saved Winnipeg. And who cares about the guy taking home electronics, should be care about the mom with no water for her kid. Whats he going to do with soaked electronics, and even if its totally fine, the store is insured for what ever is going to be taking anyways. Most of the looting going on now is food and water, they where showing people taking water and food, and other guests said they should be locked up. It wasent TVs and electronics on TV.

Manitoba did not just have its collective ass handed to it by a Hurricane, the trucks were able to pull up to the levies to build the dykes.

Ain't a city of 1.2 million either.

You don't seem to get it. The levies breeching was not a huge concern. The cities elevation and the oceanic waves that washed in were.

You have a simplistic view (yeah, I said it) of what is going on here. And I smell a lot of 'could' and 'but' coming off of your scenario of how it should have been.

Look, I get that you may be angry. Blame won't help.

Helping will.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Salty

In all fairness having lived through the flood of 97 in the peg, this is not at all the same. We had a gradual increase of water, we knew it was coming. We have a flood way, it's only a few K from my house, that goes round the city. It's like having a second river. And we STILL weren't fully prepped. From the sounds of it these people have it WAY worse than we did. Sure roads and stuff like that were a bit wonky outside the city. But the only real humanitarian problems would have been a few people displaced in the core of the city by the river, and people outside the city who were flooded. We aren't bellow sea level, and we're over prepared for what we normally have. The two situations aren't fair to compare.

I was not comparing the situations, not at all, I was bring to light how our little puny military can mobilize and build a 15 mile dyke in 3 days, why cant the mighty US army take control and get aid in to the areas of mass mobilization of victims. the news crews are in these places, why no military, no aid.

[iLikebeer]

So because a few rich tourists are idiots, all 260ish million of us suck? Nice. You have no idea the scale. You can't compare this to a regular flood. The entire city is underwater, people are scattered except for a few places where people gathered, and of course it's a hurricane, so there's some wind and stuff for a few days. Helicopters can only carry so much and can only stay in the air so long. Flying at night while exhausted under stressful conditions is probably beyond many of the pilots, and even then...where do they go? People are everywhere.

Never underestimate the stupidity of some people. I got fired from a job in Daytona Beach in '99 because i left when they gave an evacuation order. Some people just don't get it and some people are just really stupid, others have no choice. One of my friends was begging his dad to leave, i still haven't heard what happened there. The whole situation just sucks all around, but there's nothing anyone can do about it but do their best.

Most (almost all) would agree raiding places for food and water is not a crime. calm down, it's hard to do anything

[Athens]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

So because a few rich tourists are idiots, all 260ish million of us suck? Nice. You have no idea the scale. You can't compare this to a regular flood. The entire city is underwater, people are scattered except for a few places where people gathered, and of course it's a hurricane, so there's some wind and stuff for a few days. Helicopters can only carry so much and can only stay in the air so long. Flying at night while exhausted under stressful conditions is probably beyond many of the pilots, and even then...where do they go? People are everywhere.

Never underestimate the stupidity of some people. I got fired from a job in Daytona Beach in '99 because i left when they gave an evacuation order. Some people just don't get it and some people are just really stupid, others have no choice. One of my friends was begging his dad to leave, i still haven't heard what happened there. The whole situation just sucks all around, but there's nothing anyone can do about it but do their best.

Most (almost all) would agree raiding places for food and water is not a crime. calm down, it's hard to do anything

no not just a few rich tourists, include members of this forum, people being interviewed on TV, your politicians, and ya with all that it really portrays a entire nation.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Athens

I was not comparing the situations, not at all, I was bring to light how our little puny military can mobilize and build a 15 mile dyke in 3 days, why cant the mighty US army take control and get aid in to the areas of mass mobilization of victims. the news crews are in these places, why no military, no aid.

News Crew. 4 people. Jet Airplane. Private Helicopter.

Military. 1000s men. No roads. Don't all live in LA.

------

How dare you use this event to grind you political axe.

No, don't deny it. Just Don't.

[Athens]

whats frustrating is I have about a dozen online friends, and a few family members there, and im worried if they lived through it, that they will die waiting for help. And the family members that are there work in the hospitals, they couldn't leave.

[PacHead]

Please forgive my prior unfortunate Canada bashing thread. I have now been shown the light (after watching a Michael Moore movie) and I find myself on the road to true enlightenment.

**** America. Hell yeah. The whole New Orleans situation is just disgusting and it makes my thin skin boil. If Bush had never been re-elected, this whole hurricane would never have happened ! Some horrible rightwing nazis are demanding that violent gangs of criminals which have commandered vehicles and weapons be apprehended and even shot if neccesary. These poor people are just stealing DVD players and raping the occasional female. The govt should continue with their rescue operations while being shot at instead. Clearly, that is the logical thing to do. If the people in charge weren't all KKK members then I'm sure that all of the black people in the city would have been evacuated already. I agree with that brave protester woman, Cindy Sheehan, this country isn't even worth dying for. **** America !

[Atomic Rooster]

British Columbia's Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) left for Lafayette, La. Wednesday night after being asked by state officials for assistance.

READ

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Athens

whats frustrating is I have about a dozen online friends, and a few family members there, and im worried if they lived through it, that they will die waiting for help. And the family members that are there work in the hospitals, they couldn't leave.

My thoughts are with them.

I am sure you are concerned.

Many of us probably face the unknown circumstances of loved ones.

If you do have family there in the medical profession, they chose to stay. To Help. They are the heros today.

It is not for you to use their selfless act to act in anger or resentment.

[Athens]

Here is some pictures of looting
http://www.sargasso.nl/wp-content/pi...ndBalanced.jpg

Look at what they have. One Canadian news station is saying cops are leaving there badges and resigning because they are being ordered to shoot loots of food and water. CNN is just saying 20% of the forces are just not showing up for work. Shooting people stealing food, thats a concept isn't it.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro:

My thoughts are with them.

I am sure you are concerned.

Many of us probably face the unknown circumstances of loved ones.

If you do have family there in the medical profession, they chose to stay. To Help. They are the heros today.

It is not for you to use their selfless act to act in anger or resentment.

its the comments of people that have me pissed, man 4 hour drive home and its now been like 15 hours and im still fuming at peoples attitudes.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Athens

no not just a few rich tourists, include members of this forum, people being interviewed on TV, your politicians, and ya with all that it really portrays a entire nation.

not sure if you noticed, but there's been several threads and many posts telling those people arguing or saying all that how pathetic and sick they are. it seems our politicians that matter (in the area) are begging for help. you just don't seem to get it? what would you like us to do? you're kind of complaining is the worst kind. People hear the worst and hope for the best, the worst happens? everyone all of a sudden gets this magical hindsight of what should have been done. there's nothing that can be done besides what is being done, and you should grow up. this isn't a map the size of a starcraft game where you can micromanage 128 units. It's a huge area with tens of thousands of people that are isolated from ground transport.

I'll agree with you though, the worst people here are all the people already lining up to make this political, although I'm trying to figure out if you're included in this group or just disgusted by all the nastiness going on. I'm borderline Rep/Dem, and really dislike Bush, but if the Dems even try to make this an issue, I'm voting for whatever Rep they throw up there.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

British Columbia's Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) left for Lafayette, La. Wednesday night after being asked by state officials for assistance.

READ

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

Outstanding!

Also, a good read without the CNN, MSNBC, FNN input. Things like this just underscore how messed up it all is.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by PacHead

snip>CRAP<

You live in a hole or under a rock or what?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...13/?hub=Canada

[Atomic Rooster]

Celine Dion pledges $1 million US to American Red Cross.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Athens

Here is some pictures of looting
http://www.sargasso.nl/wp-content/pi...ndBalanced.jpg

Look at what they have. One Canadian news station is saying cops are leaving there badges and resigning because they are being ordered to shoot loots of food and water. CNN is just saying 20% of the forces are just not showing up for work. Shooting people stealing food, thats a concept isn't it.

That is pure tripe. The mayor of New Orleans is telling people to get food and water where they can. The police department is under his command. He calls the shots. The city is not under martial law, as had previously been reported. There is going to be a lot of misinformation on tv, just as there has been in every other disaster in recent memory. Remember, the media is afraid to miss a scoop, so they would rather report something unsubstantiated and retract it later than worry about fact checking.

[Athens]

ya cuz they are already saying its unconfirmed

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That is pure tripe. The mayor of New Orleans is telling people to get food and water where they can. The police department is under his command. He calls the shots. The city is not under martial law, as had previously been reported. There is going to be a lot of misinformation on tv, just as there has been in every other disaster in recent memory. Remember, the media is afraid to miss a scoop, so they would rather report something unsubstantiated and retract it later than worry about fact checking.

The governor of LA has given shoot to kill orders to the national guard.
These are battle hardened soldiers, some from Iraq. They've been ordered to lock and load.