[photoeditor]

I am torn on buying a new Powerbook. I have a healthy trade-in offer on my Powerbook 1GHz Titanium, and am trying to decide whether to:

a) replace with a 1.5GHz Superdrive closeout.
b) jump up to the new 1.67GHz 15"
c) survive three months on my desktop computer, a USB zip drive and a USB key and hope Apple pops out a Mactel (or at least a 7448-powered 15") in January.


So I'd like your comments on . . .
a) how likely will we be seeing Mactel in January either in the form of a Powerbook, or an iBook with decent video support? Seems to me Yonah dual core processors, which would be more than adequate for a Powerbook, are getting ready to ship in December or January at least a quarter earlier than they were scheduled to last year when Steve Jobs set WWDC 2006 as the goal for having Mactels already in consumers' hands.

b) From what little everyone has seen written publicly about the switch, does the transition to Mactel favor getting Intel-optimized software that is backward compatible with PPC, or Intel hardware that runs PPC applications well in emulation. (This of course would affect my decision; if the first round of Intel-optimized software also has good backward support of PPC, it would tremendously lower the stakes on hardware)

c) What are the benefits of 128MB VRAM over 64MB VRAM for someone who is mostly a non-gamer but uses Photoshop and is very interested in Aperture? (This would affect my choice of PPC powerbook if that's the route I go)

d) (from users of the new 1.67GHz book), does Apple's new strategy on power management actually work with the current processor in terms of extending battery life and keeping it from getting too warm, or is it still crying out for a 7448 with its lower wattage etc.?

e) would anyone trading up to the new 1.67GHz 15 inch book from an older 15 inch powerbook of 867MHz or more care to compare it?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[photoeditor]

One other clarification -- by iBook with decent video support, I mean widescreen WXGA resolution (e.g. 1280-800) and enough on the graphics card to run Aperture. I don't necessarily need monitor spanning if the built in display is big enough.

[pat++]

You won't see any Intel PowerBook in January, but I believe we'll see updated PowerBooks with 7448 chips. If you can wait, wait. If you need it now, buy now...

As for the intel switch itself, PPC machines will likely have the advantage for the first 1-2 years before all applications are ported natively on Intel. At the beginning, it's likely that apps will run in emulated mode on Intel which means they will be slower... So a 7448 based PowerBook might not be a bad bet... Plus Rev A Intels are subject to have problems at the beginning as all Rev A products. One last thing : noone knows when Intel PowerBooks will be released (all we know is some Macs will have Intel chip next summer, that's all, no precision on which ones...) It might take at least one year before having Intel PowerBooks... 

[John123]

Originally Posted by pat++

You won't see any Intel PowerBook in January, but I believe we'll see updated PowerBooks with 7448 chips. If you can wait, wait. If you need it now, buy now...

As for the intel switch itself, PPC machines will likely have the advantage for the first 1-2 years before all applications are ported natively on Intel. At the beginning, it's likely that apps will run in emulated mode on Intel which means they will be slower... So a 7448 based PowerBook might not be a bad bet... Plus Rev A Intels are subject to have problems at the beginning as all Rev A products. One last thing : noone knows when Intel PowerBooks will be released (all we know is some Macs will have Intel chip next summer, that's all, no precision on which ones...) It might take at least one year before having Intel PowerBooks... 

Totally disagree on the 7448 chips idea. Seriously doubt we'll see then in January as it would make this the shortest product cycle in recent history. Not worth it from a business standpoint.

I'd buy now.

[pat++]

Originally Posted by John123

Totally disagree on the 7448 chips idea. Seriously doubt we'll see then in January as it would make this the shortest product cycle in recent history. Not worth it from a business standpoint.

I'd buy now.

Apple did update the PowerBook already in a shorter time frame (update in November 2002 and then again in January 2003). So it's VERY likely to happen again given that they are probably just waiting for availability of 7448 chips. There is NO work for Apple as the 7448 is a drop-in replacement for the 7447a and the new PowerBooks do have support for faster DDR2 RAM already.

[John123]

Originally Posted by pat++

Apple did update the PowerBook already in a shorter time frame (update in November 2002 and then again in January 2003). So it's VERY likely to happen again given that they are probably just waiting for availability of 7448 chips. There is NO work for Apple as the 7448 is a drop-in replacement for the 7447a and the new PowerBooks do have support for faster DDR2 RAM already.

Wrong. The January 2003 announcement was an introduction of the 12" and 17" PowerBooks -- not a change to the pre-existing 15" PowerBook. The 15" TiBook languished for roughly a year before receiving an update (and a very meager one at that).

And what do you mean it's "VERY" likely to happen? You mean you feel strongly about your speculation. That has nothing to do with the probability of anything.

[bcaslis]

Just my opinion but I don't see any chance for a 7448 processor update. If there was no engineering work to do it, it would be done already wouldn't it? They will concentrate those resources to get Intel done. I don't think there any chance either of Intel in January. More likely Q2 or Q3 2006.

[robertj]

The latest update is definitely worth getting (rather than a clearance 1.5 15") for the extended battery life alone. Plus you're getting a bit more machine for your money. As for waiting, now isn't the best time to be waiting--they just updated. I'd expect Intel-based Powerbooks June or maybe a little before June, but I'd also expect the first Intel-based Macs to have to emulate a lot of software--including, according to Adobe's CEO Adobe's Creative Suite (i.e., Photoshop). Adobe doesn't plan to transition their Mac apps to x86 until late 2006/early 2007. There may be intel-based Macs in January, but it seems unlikely, and the software support just isn't there yet.

[tie]

You realize that Murphy's Law dictates that if you try to survive on the desktop, there is no way Apple will release an Intel-based Powerbook in January, and it will probably take them till 2007. For our sake, please avoid this alternative!

[John123]

Originally Posted by bcaslis

Just my opinion but I don't see any chance for a 7448 processor update. If there was no engineering work to do it, it would be done already wouldn't it? They will concentrate those resources to get Intel done. I don't think there any chance either of Intel in January. More likely Q2 or Q3 2006.

Ditto. There's no benefit. Imagine the press release.

"WAIT!!! There's MORE battery life!!!!"

That's pretty dumb.

Clock for clock, it's not really different than the 7447a's, and the 1MB L2 cache isn't going to sell that many people to make it worthwhile. If someone tells me that the 1MB L2 cache makes the difference between them buying or not buying, they're a moron.

[iBorg]

Originally Posted by John123

Ditto. There's no benefit. Imagine the press release.

"WAIT!!! There's MORE battery life!!!!"

That's pretty dumb.

Clock for clock, it's not really different than the 7447a's, and the 1MB L2 cache isn't going to sell that many people to make it worthwhile. If someone tells me that the 1MB L2 cache makes the difference between them buying or not buying, they're a moron.

LOL - are you kidding? Putting the 7448 into the PB would be vastly more newsworthy than the "upgrade" this month, which was mainly a price drop, and a screen resolution bump! The 7448 would give a much needed speed bump (which hasn't happened for how many months???), improved FSB, and larger L2 cache, along with greater battery life.

The recent "event" was primarily to announce the "dual-dual" G5's - the PB line change was an aside.

I don't know (nor does anyone else on these boards) whether or not the 7448 will come along as a silent update, or not, but it would be good for Apple buyers, and for the company's bottom line. It's funny that so many of the naysayers are recent buyers, who desparately want to avoid buyer's remorse, should the 7448 appear!

And BTW .... there are a number of forum posters who are waiting to see if Apple juices the PB with the 7448. I think that you are hardly the one to judge one's being a "moron." Perhaps we just don't want to buy this outdated PB, with a reasonable chance of a January upgrade coming. Perhaps it's just a difference in civility, but even though I don't agree with the wisdom of your purchase of this "revision," I wouldn't presume to call you a "moron" for doing so.



iBorg

[John123]

Originally Posted by iBorg

LOL - are you kidding? Putting the 7448 into the PB would be vastly more newsworthy than the "upgrade" this month, which was mainly a price drop, and a screen resolution bump! The 7448 would give a much needed speed bump (which hasn't happened for how many months???), improved FSB, and larger L2 cache, along with greater battery life.

The recent "event" was primarily to announce the "dual-dual" G5's - the PB line change was an aside.

I don't know (nor does anyone else on these boards) whether or not the 7448 will come along as a silent update, or not, but it would be good for Apple buyers, and for the company's bottom line. It's funny that so many of the naysayers are recent buyers, who desparately want to avoid buyer's remorse, should the 7448 appear!

And BTW .... there are a number of forum posters who are waiting to see if Apple juices the PB with the 7448. I think that you are hardly the one to judge one's being a "moron." Perhaps we just don't want to buy this outdated PB, with a reasonable chance of a January upgrade coming.



iBorg

No dude, I am not kidding. Let me explain something to you about marketing, because it's obvious that that isn't your field.

"7448" is not a marketing ploy. The Mac nerd faithful are not the primary intended market when a company like Apple introduces a new product. Marking is about what you tout -- the value your product provides to mainstream (and sometimes niche) customers. "7448" has no inherent value.

That's point #1. Point #2 is the timing of the press conference last week was entirely about two things: (1) hitting a niche professional market with a 1-2 hardware/software punch (you are correct that the PowerBooks were an afterthought but obviously not the main event); and (2) announcing higher-level product lineups for the holiday season. January, as you might recall, is after the holiday season. It's a decent time to introduce stuff to get people to upgrade, but that requires *revolutionary* products, not *evolutionary*. See iPods. See 12"/17" PowerBooks. *New* stuff. Not bland processor upgrades.

The bus speed increase and the L2 cache are evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's a mild performance bump. If we were talking about dual core chips, I'd think differently. G5s, sure. Intels, absolutely. But a chip at the same clock speed with a better FSB and more cache is not the kind of thing that turns a market upside down.

The buyers' remorse comment is also kind of funny. I haven't ordered mine yet -- I plan to order from Amazon as soon as they get stock and issue rebate forms for the new PowerBooks. But I'm excited about it.

I don't know what you'd be expecting out of a 7448. It's not the second coming of Christ or anything. It's ho-hum.

[newsushi]

The fundamentals of marketing aside (which, incedentally, is my field), I'd actually be tempted to upgrade to a 7448 processor. Why? Because the 167Mhz bus is a fricken bottleneck and better battery life is ALWAYS welcomed. Right then, I'd be tempted to buy that machine, even if it were still clocked at the same exact speed. Now, if they increased the max amount of RAM on top of a 7448 upgrade, I'd be the first one in line.

As it is, my 1.33Ghz G4 ass maxed at a measily 1.25GB RAM will probably just suffer through until Rev B. Macintell PBs are out. If it gets too bad I can always pick up a used Dual G5 tower to "power" me through until the Adobe CS for macintell is released (I'll be the first one in line for that one, too).

-NewSushi

[iBorg]

Originally Posted by John123

No dude, I am not kidding. Let me explain something to you about marketing, because it's obvious that that isn't your field.

"7448" is not a marketing ploy. The Mac nerd faithful are not the primary intended market when a company like Apple introduces a new product. Marking is about what you tout -- the value your product provides to mainstream (and sometimes niche) customers. "7448" has no inherent value.

That's point #1. Point #2 is the timing of the press conference last week was entirely about two things: (1) hitting a niche professional market with a 1-2 hardware/software punch (you are correct that the PowerBooks were an afterthought but obviously not the main event); and (2) announcing higher-level product lineups for the holiday season. January, as you might recall, is after the holiday season. It's a decent time to introduce stuff to get people to upgrade, but that requires *revolutionary* products, not *evolutionary*. See iPods. See 12"/17" PowerBooks. *New* stuff. Not bland processor upgrades.

The bus speed increase and the L2 cache are evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's a mild performance bump. If we were talking about dual core chips, I'd think differently. G5s, sure. Intels, absolutely. But a chip at the same clock speed with a better FSB and more cache is not the kind of thing that turns a market upside down.

The buyers' remorse comment is also kind of funny. I haven't ordered mine yet -- I plan to order from Amazon as soon as they get stock and issue rebate forms for the new PowerBooks. But I'm excited about it.

I don't know what you'd be expecting out of a 7448. It's not the second coming of Christ or anything. It's ho-hum.

Well, "dude," you don't know dick about my background, so cut the 'tude about how market savvy you are. You aren't. When you have an MBA as your second professional degree, come back and talk to me.....

Your "point #1" is nonsense. You bet your arse that Apple is "marketing to the faithful!" Do you have any idea of the low percent of Mac buyers are new to the platform? Unless Apple marketing gurus are "morons," they'd better be marketing to every damn person they can talk into buying, because 3.8% market share doesn't give you much room for error!

From all reports, Apple intended to put the 7448's in at this time, but couldn't, either becaue Freescale couldn't produce them in quantity, or because of glitches. Whatever the reason, they wanted to give whatever they had, at this time. Doesn't mean 7448's aren't coming in a month or three, just means it isn't now. Nothing to do with "marketing," just reality of production. They gave what they could for Christmas, it just wasn't very much.

January, as you might recall, is MWSF, which is why many have opined that another bump would come then. Perhaps you could convince the powers that be to move MWSF to November .... but marketing probably isn't their fields, either.......

You're right about 7448 giving a "mild performance bump" (which is what I've said all along) - but it beats the zero performance bump that your beloved 10/05 version brought, huh?

What I'm expecting out of a 7448 upgrade is a mild speed bump, faster FSB, bigger L2 cache, and a lower battery drain. What I'm expecting is the last, best PPC PowerBook, which is what I want to buy - not what I must buy, but want to buy!

You want this version? Wonderful, buy 10 of them! But don't ridicule and insult those who can, and will, wait for something better!



iBorg

[John123]

Originally Posted by iBorg

Well, "dude," you don't know dick about my background, so cut the 'tude about how market savvy you are. You aren't. When you have an MBA as your second professional degree, come back and talk to me.....

Your "point #1" is nonsense. You bet your arse that Apple is "marketing to the faithful!" Do you have any idea of the low percent of Mac buyers are new to the platform? Unless Apple marketing gurus are "morons," they'd better be marketing to every damn person they can talk into buying, because 3.8% market share doesn't give you much room for error!

From all reports, Apple intended to put the 7448's in at this time, but couldn't, either becaue Freescale couldn't produce them in quantity, or because of glitches. Whatever the reason, they wanted to give whatever they had, at this time. Doesn't mean 7448's aren't coming in a month or three, just means it isn't now. Nothing to do with "marketing," just reality of production. They gave what they could for Christmas, it just wasn't very much.

January, as you might recall, is MWSF, which is why many have opined that another bump would come then. Perhaps you could convince the powers that be to move MWSF to November .... but marketing probably isn't their fields, either.......

You're right about 7448 giving a "mild performance bump" (which is what I've said all along) - but it beats the zero performance bump that your beloved 10/05 version brought, huh?

What I'm expecting out of a 7448 upgrade is a mild speed bump, faster FSB, bigger L2 cache, and a lower battery drain. What I'm expecting is the last, best PPC PowerBook, which is what I want to buy - not what I must buy, but want to buy!

You want this version? Wonderful, buy 10 of them! But don't ridicule and insult those who can, and will, wait for something better!



iBorg

How amusing. Very, very amusing. Let's begin.

* Educational credentials: I would love to get into an academic pissing contest with you. That would be very funny. But even that isn't the point -- the point is that you clearly don't have a marketing background. Alas, you decided to ignore that point and substitute a discussion about what degrees you have. You don't trust your lawyer to do open heart surgery, do you?

* "Marking to the faithful": my point -- which you clearly missed -- is that the majority of the faithful doesn't care about the 4-digit model of a processor. Quad cores was something Apple users have been hoping for for quite some time. The uproar for faster FSB and larger cache isn't even in the same category as far as upgrades go.

* "From all reports, Apple intended to put 7448s...": haha! So let me get this straight -- you're taking junk you read on rumor sites and in forums such as these, knowledge about the pin compatibility of processors, and extrapolating that to conclude that Apple "planned" to take a certain course of action? Too funny. Computer companies put components into their computers when it is practical and profit-maximizing.

* Zero performance bump: so what? There were feature additions and price cuts. Both of those attract new buyers. Case-in-point: ME, a buyer who sold his 1.5Ghz PowerBook to get the new one solely due to the anticipated increase in screen resolution.

And you know, if you acted with just a bit of perseverance, you could buy a current one for a great price, sell it right before MWSF, and if your theory is right, get a new PowerBook right after they are introduced. You could lose less than $100 on the whole deal if you played your cards right. If you're as successful as you purported to be in your last post, that should be a drop in the bucket to you.

But at the end of the day, though, you've missed the main point altogether. There is nothing special about a 7448 that merits introduction at Apple's premier yearly product event, MWSF. There is nothing about it that would elicit "oohs" and "aahs" from anyone but the uber-geeky because, as I said, it's only mildly evolutionary at best.

You wait around for MWSF if you want. Even though there's not been a 3-month-PowerBook since, what, the late 1990s? Even though it's pretty clear that development efforts are focused at Intel-based Macs. Even though MWSF is traditionally a venue where revolutionary products are introduced. Even though you may wait all that time for nothing.

Enjoy waiting. I'll enjoy my new, beautiful PowerBook.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by newsushi

The fundamentals of marketing aside (which, incedentally, is my field), I'd actually be tempted to upgrade to a 7448 processor. Why? Because the 167Mhz bus is a fricken bottleneck and better battery life is ALWAYS welcomed. Right then, I'd be tempted to buy that machine, even if it were still clocked at the same exact speed. Now, if they increased the max amount of RAM on top of a 7448 upgrade, I'd be the first one in line.

As it is, my 1.33Ghz G4 ass maxed at a measily 1.25GB RAM will probably just suffer through until Rev B. Macintell PBs are out. If it gets too bad I can always pick up a used Dual G5 tower to "power" me through until the Adobe CS for macintell is released (I'll be the first one in line for that one, too).

Is the 167Mhz FSB really a bottleneck for you? I know everyone likes to hype the G5s FSB and rag on the G4s, but are your apps really contrained by FSB? It feels like FSB clock has become the new Mhz (er, pipeline) myth.

The PowerBook G4s max out at 2GB RAM, which is as good as most other laptops (I say most so someone doesn't point out some obscure Sun Sparc laptop that supported 8GB back in 1992).

[pat++]

Originally Posted by John123

Wrong. The January 2003 announcement was an introduction of the 12" and 17" PowerBooks -- not a change to the pre-existing 15" PowerBook. The 15" TiBook languished for roughly a year before receiving an update (and a very meager one at that).

And what do you mean it's "VERY" likely to happen? You mean you feel strongly about your speculation. That has nothing to do with the probability of anything.

It would be the same kind of scenario, but for the 12" this time. And I suppose they didn't update the 12" at all because as there is no new screen, there is no point having DDR2 on the 12". Now what if they do update the 12" with a 7448 + DDR2 and at the same time introduce the 7448 into other models which is likely to happen if they do update the 12"?

The bottom line is : the new 15" and 17" are very nice updates. They would have been perfect with a new chip. If you need a PowerBook now, you can buy now, if you can wait for 2 months, it might be worth it. That's all.

[Moon Potato]

The power consumption on the new 1.67GHz books (at least the 15") seems to hinge mostly on how bright you have the screen set. At full brightness, it won't even get 3 hours out of a full charge. with the brightness about 1/3 of the way up, it'll last nearly 5 hours.

A 7448 would be lovely, but if they didn't include it in this update, it'll probably never see the light of day in a powerbook.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by pat++

there is no point having DDR2 on the 12".

DDR2 has lower power consumption and lower price than DDR.

[templetalker]

Has anyone answered this poor guys questions directly? I'm curious too!

[photoeditor]

Gosh, I leave the forum unattended overnight and come back to a flamewar . . . but thanks to everyone who has posted comments so far except for the person who first laid out the word "moron" and continued to stir the pot.

Special thanks to Moon Potato for specifically taking on my power management question. That is very helpful to know, if sobering that the backlight makes that big a difference (it's pretty significant on my TiBook too but not quite THAT significant).

However, I hope someone can comment on the other questions in my original post besides the very speculative one about Intel at MWSF -- such as;

In what ways does the large amount of VRAM in the new Powerbook make a difference?

Does the transition to Intel favor switching to Intel software BEFORE Intel hardware, or the other way around?

(New powerbook owners only who have traded up from a previous 15 inch book, titanium or aluminum) a. How's the battery life under normal use, and b. how does the computer compare to the powerbook you traded up from?

And -- if anyone does have publicly available information about how soon Yonah (i.e. the new dual-core lower-power Pentium M) will be market-ready in general, that would be much appreciated. Intel are not the secrecy maniacs that Apple are, and it's reasonable to assume PC and Mac laptops on Yonah should be ready about the same time. But when they "shipping to OEM partners at the end of 2005" and "market ready in the first quarter of 2006", what do those mean in combination?

[365]

Yep, Intel based Powerbooks will be introduced at MWSF, without a doubt. They may not ship until the end of the quarter but they will certainly be the big news of the show.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by photoeditor

In what ways does the large amount of VRAM in the new Powerbook make a difference?

Does the transition to Intel favor switching to Intel software BEFORE Intel hardware, or the other way around?

And -- if anyone does have publicly available information about how soon Yonah (i.e. the new dual-core lower-power Pentium M) will be market-ready in general, that would be much appreciated. Intel are not the secrecy maniacs that Apple are, and it's reasonable to assume PC and Mac laptops on Yonah should be ready about the same time. But when they "shipping to OEM partners at the end of 2005" and "market ready in the first quarter of 2006", what do those mean in combination?

The extra VRAM will help in some apps (games, Aperature, Final Cut Studio, etc).

You can't run "Intel software" on anything but Intel hardware, so I don't understand your second question.

Apple (and Dell, et al) probably have limited quantities of Yonah chips for testing already, and will be shipping them to consumers early next year. While Intel does provide nice (and generally realistic) roadmaps for the next couple years (unlike Freescale), they're usually only quarter or half-year specific.

[John123]

Originally Posted by photoeditor

the word "moron" and continued to stir the pot.

Oh please...re-read it in context. I simply applied that term to anyone who had a make-or-break decision on the basis of L2 cache. Because, as buying criteria go, that's a super lame one.

[photoeditor]

Mduell -- what I mean is this . . . . presumably, with universal binary, we'll see applications "optimized for MacTel" that will also run on PPC, just as we did during the switch from 68K to PPC. My recollection of that time is that running non-PPC applications on PPC was an exercise in watching paint dry, while PPC applications actually did reasonably well on non-PPC hardware. What I'm curious about is if we're in for a rerun of that. Anyone with a strong programming/CS background is especially welcome to comment or speculate.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by photoeditor

Mduell -- what I mean is this . . . . presumably, with universal binary, we'll see applications "optimized for MacTel" that will also run on PPC, just as we did during the switch from 68K to PPC. My recollection of that time is that running non-PPC applications on PPC was an exercise in watching paint dry, while PPC applications actually did reasonably well on non-PPC hardware. What I'm curious about is if we're in for a rerun of that. Anyone with a strong programming/CS background is especially welcome to comment or speculate.

If I recall it was the other way around. 68k apps ran reasonably on PPC, but PPC apps were slideshows on 68k.
I don't think PPC Macs will have emulation software to run x86-only binaries. Fat binaries will run on both, and should be equally optimized for both. PPC binaries will run on x86, although through reasonable speed emulation.

[aristobrat]

Originally Posted by pat++

If you need a PowerBook now, you can buy now, if you can wait for 2 months, it might be worth it. That's all.

I guess anything's possible, but from looking at http://buyersguide.macrumors.com, the PB updates have run like this:

1/2001 -- introduced
10/2001 -- update, 9 months later
4/2002 -- update, 6 months later
11/2002 -- update, 7 months later
1/2003 -- update, 2 months later
9/2003 -- update 8 months later
4/2004 -- update 7 months later
1/2005 -- update 9 months later
10/2005 -- update 9 months later

With the one exception, PB updates are > 6 months, with 9 months not being uncommon.

Using history as a guide, 6-9 months from now is when Apple would be most likely to releaes an updated PB. But if that's in the ballpark for Mactels, doesn't another PB update 2-3 months from now, followed up by a Mactel PB update 4-6 months after that seem a little odd?

Personally, I hope that Apple's got the entire PB team focused on the Mactels now.

[John123]

Originally Posted by aristobrat

I guess anything's possible, but from looking at http://buyersguide.macrumors.com, the PB updates have run like this:

1/2001 -- introduced
10/2001 -- update, 9 months later
4/2002 -- update, 6 months later
11/2002 -- update, 7 months later
1/2003 -- update, 2 months later
9/2003 -- update 8 months later
4/2004 -- update 7 months later
1/2005 -- update 9 months later
10/2005 -- update 9 months later

With the one exception, PB updates are > 6 months, with 9 months not being uncommon.

And as I noted earlier, the "2 months later" update wasn't really an update. It was an introduction of totally different models that were not in competition with the pre-existing 15" PowerBook. So that's not apples to apples for the purposes of talking about 15" PowerBooks with new processors in January.

[bcaslis]

I have to disagree with this. The higher res display is to me far more useful than adding the 7448 will be. It's not like it's suddenly going to be five times faster with five times more battery life is it? If only performance and battery life mattered I'd already have a wintel laptop.

But the new 17" display, that is nice. That's why I bought one. If they had added the 7448 processor and not updated the display, there is no why in heck I'd buy it. I'd wait for the shadowy Intel upgrades to emerge and see how much performance they have.

Originally Posted by iBorg

LOL - are you kidding? Putting the 7448 into the PB would be vastly more newsworthy than the "upgrade" this month, which was mainly a price drop, and a screen resolution bump! The 7448 would give a much needed speed bump (which hasn't happened for how many months???), improved FSB, and larger L2 cache, along with greater battery life.

The recent "event" was primarily to announce the "dual-dual" G5's - the PB line change was an aside.

I don't know (nor does anyone else on these boards) whether or not the 7448 will come along as a silent update, or not, but it would be good for Apple buyers, and for the company's bottom line. It's funny that so many of the naysayers are recent buyers, who desparately want to avoid buyer's remorse, should the 7448 appear!

And BTW .... there are a number of forum posters who are waiting to see if Apple juices the PB with the 7448. I think that you are hardly the one to judge one's being a "moron." Perhaps we just don't want to buy this outdated PB, with a reasonable chance of a January upgrade coming. Perhaps it's just a difference in civility, but even though I don't agree with the wisdom of your purchase of this "revision," I wouldn't presume to call you a "moron" for doing so.



iBorg

[bcaslis]

So, Steve Jobs has personally told you this? There is a difference between opinion and fact.

Originally Posted by 365

Yep, Intel based Powerbooks will be introduced at MWSF, without a doubt. They may not ship until the end of the quarter but they will certainly be the big news of the show.

[Al G]

Jobs said the first Intel Macs would be a year from last WWDC, in other words around June 2006.

Historically, Apple tends to get behind and delays are common. So based solely on past performance, it's highly unlikely that Apple would release a product 5-6 months early. Obviously the past does not equal the future but I wouldn't put money on seeing any Intel Mac in Jan. 2006.

As far as Yonah, Intel has publicly said it is on schedule for volume shipments in Jan. 2006. But it's not just about the hardware for Apple; they are also waiting for all the big software developers to get on board before they begin the move to Intel.

[365]

Originally Posted by bcaslis

So, Steve Jobs has personally told you this?

What do you think!

[Dave Hagan]

Originally Posted by Al G

Jobs said the first Intel Macs would be a year from last WWDC, in other words around June 2006.

No, he didn't say that. He said they hope to be shipping Intel-based Macs by the time the WWDC next meets in June 2006.

[LoRdKaLiBaH]

This is all sort of a moot point unless you want to be a beta tester for Mac Intel. I dunno about you but theres no way I am going to be buying a Rev A intel powerbook... or any intel within the first few revisions... the hardware may or may not be there... and the software bugs will certainly need to be ironed out.


The real question you should be asking is will there be another speed bump between now and Powerbook Intels- and that depends on when the Powerbook intels would be released. If we are so certain powerbook intels will be out in January then heck no there wont.

I also cant imagine Apple working so hard to fit a new chip into Powerbooks and NOT releasing it at the same time as these screen/ battery upgrades, unless it aint coming.

If this was the last big push of Powerbooks before intels, then why not go all out? Why go at it peicemeal- batt and screen one update, processer ( roughly same speed no doubt) next... no one is going to buy for JUST a new chip of Intels are around the corner ( unless you like me and dont want to buy a Rev A product...)

My uneducated opinion:
In Tech things start with Desktops and trickle down to portables. Intel will be out on Desktops first
If we look at the delay between G4s being put into laptops- after they were put into desktops we have a while before the laptops get the upgrade
If you want to be a Rev A tester then best case scenario is next summer or beyond for Laptops

[mduell]

Originally Posted by LoRdKaLiBaH

My uneducated opinion:
In Tech things start with Desktops and trickle down to portables. Intel will be out on Desktops first
If we look at the delay between G4s being put into laptops- after they were put into desktops we have a while before the laptops get the upgrade
If you want to be a Rev A tester then best case scenario is next summer or beyond for Laptops

I disagree. Apple's desktops already have competitive chips, while their laptops are languishing with chips that were "good" two years ago.

[Moon Potato]

Originally Posted by 365

Yep, Intel based Powerbooks will be introduced at MWSF, without a doubt. They may not ship until the end of the quarter but they will certainly be the big news of the show.

Just out of curiosity, what are you basing this on?

Has apple publicly revised their June 2006 time frame for beginning the Intel transition, or do we just have a lot of wishful thinkers on this forum? Given the amount of software that needs to be ported and fine-tuned before OSX-X86 is a viable computing platform, it seems like nobody would benefit from rushing the process. (Yes, I'm aware that rosetta adds a decent degree of backwards compatibility, but it won't satisfy most people using professional level content creation apps).

[LoRdKaLiBaH]

Originally Posted by mduell

I disagree. Apple's desktops already have competitive chips, while their laptops are languishing with chips that were "good" two years ago.

Good point- didn't think of that... but either way- I dont intend on being a Rev A tester for them- nevermind the fact the software support won't be there.

[liscio]

Originally Posted by Moon Potato

Given the amount of software that needs to be ported and fine-tuned before OSX-X86 is a viable computing platform, it seems like nobody would benefit from rushing the process. (Yes, I'm aware that rosetta adds a decent degree of backwards compatibility, but it won't satisfy most people using professional level content creation apps).

Ah, but if an x86 mac runs iLife, iWork, Safari, and the Pro Apps about 5x faster than what's out now, that's fine for many folks!

Supposedly the developer transition kit boxes absolutely fly when running native Apple code, and that's with far less capable processors than what we should expect in the first few models on the market. I'm pretty stoked to see what the Intel transition will bring.

However, I agree that it's unlikely we'll see these machines so early. Developers have until the end of 2006 to return their transition kit machines, so Apple can theoretically take their time with this switch. Maybe we'll get a dual-core iMac or Mac mini slipped in to hold us over, and all PowerMacs will become quad during 2006. Only time will tell, and nobody who posts here (especially not me) can say for sure.

[Troll]

I'm in s aimilar position to the original poster and thought I'd try to steer the conversation back to his question.

I have an 867MHz Ti-Book, 60GB hard drive, 512MB of RAM, Airport, external Bluetooth module. I have an external DVD writer too. Apart from some music recording, I don't do too much heavy duty stuff. I spend most of my time with iPhoto, Safari and Mail running. The Ti-Book is getting a bit long in the tooth. iPhoto takes forever to load and small tweaks to photos take ages to render. I have problems with GarageBand and Logic and find that every software update sucks my computer's will to live!

If I sell my TiBook and go for a refurb 1.67GHz 15" AluBook, I'm looking at shelling out about $700. Getting a new one would cost me about $1,300. I'm not sure how much of a difference in speed I'll notice though between mine and a 1.67GHz. I imagine it's pretty dramatic though? The other possibility would be to spend $200 - $300 on RAM and make this one last a bit longer. The downside of that choice is that I will probably badly need to upgrade when intel books come out and my resale value will probably be zero at that point.

So, advice?

[aristobrat]

As much as I love my Apple products, I wouldn't want the worry of buying a Rev A. Mactel product. It may be a flawless transition, but $1499+ is a rather large sum to gamble, IMO.

I doubt the new Mactels will be shipping in January. Even if you guess March at the earliest, then add in that Rev B's probably won't ship until 6-9 months after the that, you're still looking at a decent period of time.

Anyhow, I wouldn't want to be in the position where I *HAVE* to upgrade during the Rev. A cycle. If the Rev. A's have problems, then your only choice is to pick up a used, older PB, which kinda sucks since Rev B's would be just around the corner.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Troll

If I sell my TiBook and go for a refurb 1.67GHz 15" AluBook, I'm looking at shelling out about $700. Getting a new one would cost me about $1,300. I'm not sure how much of a difference in speed I'll notice though between mine and a 1.67GHz. I imagine it's pretty dramatic though? The other possibility would be to spend $200 - $300 on RAM and make this one last a bit longer. The downside of that choice is that I will probably badly need to upgrade when intel books come out and my resale value will probably be zero at that point.

Buy the refurb and throw in $180 worth of RAM. You'll notice the speed difference.

[photoeditor]

I used the Powermax trade toward an Apple-certified refurbished 1.5GHz Combo drive Powerbook with 1.5GB of all Apple-Samsung RAM pre-installed. A pity that neither Powermax nor any other reseller can sell through the educational channel, or I'd have had a new one for even less than I got the refurb one. But the trade was too convenient and Powermax was willing to deal.

This way, all the aggravating irritations of my TiBook -- the fragility, USB 1.1, the 1GB limitation on RAM, the slow CD burning, the fan noise, the lack of CoreImage support, the keyboard, the lack of a proper scrolling trackpad -- are all banished at once. This will keep me nicely for a while, and when Apple has the Merom Powerbook down cold in a couple of years, we begin the process all over again.

Buying the new Powerbook was on the cards but it wasn't worth it, especially in view of the QC problems, and I'll probably spend the money I saved on AppleCare and a spare battery. The screen does not render text sharply to my eyes, it is barely faster than the 1.5GHz PB, the SuperDrive is much slower than the Combo Drive on CD-RW (the format I need the most), and I can't wait several months for them to fix the Airport situation.

[Filburt]

If running Aperture is important, I would wait. Although Apple specifies "15- or 17-inch PowerBook G4 with a 1.25 GHz or faster PowerPC G4 processor" as compatible systems, one should take its recommended spec seriously ("Dual 2GHz Power Mac G5 or faster,
Radeon X800 XT, Radeon 9800 XT or 9800 Pro, GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL or 6800 GT DDL, GeForce 6600 LE or 6600, GeForce 7800 GT, or NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500").

[Filburt]

If running Aperture is important, I would wait. Although Apple specifies "15- or 17-inch PowerBook G4 with a 1.25 GHz or faster PowerPC G4 processor" as compatible systems, one should take its recommended spec seriously ("Dual 2GHz Power Mac G5 or faster,
Radeon X800 XT, Radeon 9800 XT or 9800 Pro, GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL or 6800 GT DDL, GeForce 6600 LE or 6600, GeForce 7800 GT, or NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500").

[photoeditor]

Of course, on the logic of meeting Apple's recommended requirements with a portable, one bad better wait for dual-core Pentium-M laptops, preferably the 64-bit Merom due next fall.

[365]

Originally Posted by Moon Potato

Just out of curiosity, what are you basing this on?

A conversation.

[runejoha]

folks, get real. This was the last PB upgrade before the mactels. See you in May Mr.Pentiumbook :-D If anyone ask me, I think the first Mactels is called a PowerBook XX. What do you think will be the new name? Powerbook x86?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by runejoha

folks, get real. This was the last PB upgrade before the mactels. See you in May Mr.Pentiumbook :-D If anyone ask me, I think the first Mactels is called a PowerBook XX. What do you think will be the new name? Powerbook x86?

Since the Pentium M is derived from Intel's 6th generation core, perhaps PowerBook P6; unless they wait for Merom, then maybe PowerBook P8.
(The original Pentium was P5, the Pentium 4 is P7.)

[photoeditor]

Held off on the 1.5 and will probably go for the new 1.67 instead . . . . but will wait a few weeks for the apparent teething troubles to be resolved. Out of curiosity has anyone had one of the new books back in for display issues (e.g. the alternating horizontal darkened lines) and had a successful repair?

[ryonious]

what kind of video cards do you think the new mactels will have? The ibooks will obviously get an upgrade (32 mb is lame ass) but I'm hoping the powerbooks will get a bump as well. the 12 inch should really get past the 64 mb if it wants to compete with professional pc laptops. And while the 128 isnt terrible for the other powerbooks... I'm hoping for a bump up to 256 mb... I know the alienware notebooks have the NVIDIA GeForce™ Go 6800 with 256MB and they are still cheaper than powerbooks for the most part... so hopefully apple will make the jump.