[Spaztik]

Listen to me and listen carefully (or read).

I work in the printing buisness. Those Apple Press Release screenshots aren't screenshots at all. They are HIGH RESOLUTION "mock-ups" of the screenshot. These files are made to be used in PRINT.

Now, with that said, of course they aren't going to have everything exact. It was probably all done in Photoshop. That also makes it possible to use HIGH RESOLUTION icons in the sidebar because they look nicer than the 32x32 icons we have.

Now, would everyone just calm down about the Apple PR images because they are not ACCURATE and it's stupid to compare REAL screenshots to HIGH RESOLUTION "mock-ups" that Apple has so kindly provided for use in Magazines and other Print material.

Thank you for your time.

[sanity assassin]

Personally speaking, I'm not talking about how, why, or what they were made with, adn for what reason; my point is that they look good, and hope that they could become features. Pity, they didn't use professional designers for any other shots, they look like sh!t.

[JKT]

Originally posted by Spaztik:
...because they look nicer than the 32x32 icons we have...

128x128 surely

[piracy]

Originally posted by nforcer:
Possible conclusions:[list=1][*]7B85 is not the GM, but rather a release candidate that someone down the line confused with GM.[*]Apple's PR materials are severely outdated or modified[*]z0ne81 mislabeled the images[*]Some kind of theme or customization was applied to the Finder in one of the images.[/list=1]

I'll help:

2.

[Eug]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Load up Preview with a multipage PDF, quickly turn on Expose, and this is what you get.

Originally posted by nforcer:
Neat. What build does that happen with?

Yeah, as C3PO said, I'm using 7B85, aka the GM.

It makes me wonder how OS X apps spawn the drawer. I can replicate the same bug in iDVD 3, and sort of replicate it in iCal as well.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by piracy:
I'll help:

2.

And
3. "z0ne81 mislabeled the images" because the iMage labeled "GM" is not GM, but PR.



(Boy am I glad I'm no longer desperately interested in content in this thread, having the GM running at home myself. If I didn't, I'd be *really* - as opposed to mildly - annoyed at this stupid pissing match.)

-s*

[diamondsw]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Load up Preview with a multipage PDF, quickly turn on Expose, and this is what you get.

Has this been reported to Apple's bug tracker as a severe bug? We may have seen problems with strange drawer separation once in a blue moon before, but now with Expose half of Apple's apps are going to break in this fashion.

I know in Mail I keep the mailboxes shown at all times, in iCal I'm likely to keep the info drawer open a lot, and in Poisoned, mlMac, etc, their drawers are all vital as well. That's a lot of stuff to break when I hit F9.

[Eug]

Has this been reported to Apple's bug tracker as a severe bug? We may have seen problems with strange drawer separation once in a blue moon before, but now with Expose half of Apple's apps are going to break in this fashion.

I know in Mail I keep the mailboxes shown at all times, in iCal I'm likely to keep the info drawer open a lot, and in Poisoned, mlMac, etc, their drawers are all vital as well. That's a lot of stuff to break when I hit F9.

This bug has been reported but I should point out that it does NOT show up just with an open drawer. The drawer has to open AFTER the expose feature has been activated.

For example, on my machine if I load up a multipage PDF there is a brief (1 second?) lag before the drawer pops out (automatically). If during this lag time I start Expose then I get the weirdness.

However, if I wait the 1 second until the drawer has popped out before I start Expose, then Expose works fine. That's probably why most people haven't noticed it.

BTW, what happens in iCal is a little different. Instead of displaying weirdly, sometimes it just doesn't display at all. And when I close the non-existent drawer, it pops on the screen somewhere else and closes.

[piracy]

Some people have a much different definition of "severe" than what it actually is...

[Eug]

Originally posted by piracy:
Uh, ok. Let's all calm down. This bug is not reproducible, and in fact I cannot get to occur in Mail, Preview, or any other app with a drawer, and secondly, it is most certainly not a "severe" bug.

Did you try it as I described? You have to start Expose before the drawer opens. And yes I can reproduce it even after a reboot.

I agree though it's not a huge bug. But it is a bug nonetheless.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by piracy:
Some people have a much different definition of "severe" than what it actually is...

But it CAN result in data loss (isn't that an essential part of the "severe" classification?): What if the user totally freaks because he was waiting for a hugely important mail, drops his coffee cup on the keyboard and knocks his computer off the desk in the ensuing frenzy?

-s*

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
What if the user totally freaks because he was waiting for a hugely important mail, drops his coffee cup on the keyboard and knocks his computer off the desk in the ensuing frenzy?

then he needs a slap for drinking his coffee right over his keyboard.

[piracy]

Originally posted by Eug:
Did you try it as I described? You have to start Expose before the drawer opens. And yes I can reproduce it even after a reboot.

I agree though it's not a huge bug. But it is a bug nonetheless.

Yes, I did try that, and it is reported. I guess I don't use Expos� while a drawer is opening.

This manifests itself because of the way the window handling code handles drawers. While a drawer is opening, it is a separate window, not "attached" to the parent. Once open, it is associated with the window.

[Eug]

Originally posted by piracy:
Yes, I did try that, and it is reported. I guess I don't use Expos� while a drawer is opening.

This manifests itself because of the way the window handling code handles drawers. While a drawer is opening, it is a separate window, not "attached" to the parent. Once open, it is associated with the window.

Yeah, like I said, it's not a huge bug, and actually I don't really care all that much about it (except the possible spilled coffee effect ) since I don't usually use Expose while a drawer is opening too. That said, I did discover it by accident. I had a lot of stuff on screen and decided to open a .pdf, knowing it would take a while to thumbnail all the pages, and immediately went to expose to access something else.

What bugs me a lot though is the handling of wake after sleep on a multiuser system with fast user switching, while having then authenticate after sleep feature active. In OS X there are potential situations where a user would have to log in twice. (See earlier in the thread.)

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by philzilla:
then he needs a slap for drinking his coffee right over his keyboard.

Don't derail this: That scenario could cause data loss. That constitutes a "severe" bug.

All the more severe if it results in slappings. Unless, of course, the slapping is more of a light spanking and you're, er, into that stuff...

-s*

[Taipan]

Originally posted by mikemako:
If I stay logged into Safari in one account & switch to another, Safari won't work right: It's not possible to "middle click" to open new tabs for some reason. Also the dock will not respond to the mouse (app names will not appear when the cursor is moved over their icons). Menus won't work properly, also.

Hi!

I noticed this yesterday, too (7B74, though). I had no iTunes involved and Logitech mouse software. Damn, I was hoping the Logitech driver was (were? I never get that) the culprit...

[diamondsw]

Originally posted by piracy:
Some people have a much different definition of "severe" than what it actually is...

I apparently misunderstood the problem.

Had it happened on any drawer then people would be seeing it *very* frequently. The images also made it appear that the drawer stayed detached after expose finished. Based on that (now understood to be incorrect) analysis, yes, expose breaking every window that has a drawer would be "severe".

As it stands, it's a rare fluke that should get fixed at some point.

[Spaztik]

I'm sick of hearing about Panther... Just wait until it's in a box at your house before you start bashing it badly.

As it stands now... I am in 7B85 and it's definately the best version of Panther I have used, but I don't believe that it's done.

I am going to patiently wait for it to show up on my doorstep before I say "Panther 7B85 is Final Candidate"

That's my 2 cents.

[Eug]

Originally posted by diamondsw:
The images also made it appear that the drawer stayed detached after expose finished.

It does.

Well, sorta. It's still kinda attached, but it might be attached in the wrong spot (like in the picture), or it might be separate from the parent window on the screen, but when you move the parent window the detached drawer moves with it (maintaining the same space away from the main window).



And if you click on the thumbnail in the "detached drawer", it properly changes the parent window.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Spaztik:
I'm sick of hearing about Panther... Just wait until it's in a box at your house before you start bashing it badly.

Oh shaddap. We have the GM of Panther, we are allowed to discuss any potential bugs there is.

That said, I have yet to experience anything unusual with Panther 7B85. I even tried to replicate that drawer Expos� bug without luck.

[MadBrowser]

I'm still pissed the damn pirates get the GM build before most ADC members.

They could at least post GM for DL like they did for Jaguar.

Boo.

[Eug]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Oh shaddap. We have the GM of Panther, we are allowed to discuss any potential bugs there is.

That said, I have yet to experience anything unusual with Panther 7B85. I even tried to replicate that drawer Expos� bug without luck.

1) Load up a bunch of apps on your desktop so you have lots of apps to Expose.
2) Make sure PDF files are set to open with Preview, with thumbnail generation in the drawer.
3) Download a multipage PDF file.
4) Double click on the PDF file so that Preview automatically launches, and immediately press F9 to start Expose.

If you don't want to set Preview to load PDF files I suppose you could do the same thing with a series of image files. ie. Highlight 10 JPEG files in a directory and double-click it to launch Preview.

With this series of steps, I can replicate the bug every time. And it seems Piracy was able to replicate it.

Oh and the install was a Archive and Install of 7B85, so it's a relatively clean install, and I get the same bug after a fresh reboot too.

That said, I don't do this very often (even though I did discover this when I was simply doing normal every day type stuff with Expose).

[mikemako]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I've not had a single BSOD yet, despite leaving iTunes running with multiple users. Throw out the Mouseworks and report back.

-s*

That is a good idea, I'm hoping that (Mouseworks) is what the problem is.

The BSOD's I got just randomly occured when I logged in, that happened twice.

The problems that had to do with iTunes, don't include the BSOD's. This is what happens:

-Safari will start acting strange (links wouldn't open in new tabs when I "middle clicked").
-the dock will not respond the the mouse.
-menus get.. sticky- when I mouse through the words in the menu (About this Mac, Force Quit, Shut Down, Log Out, etc) the words don't get highlighted.

This occurs if I am running iTunes and Safari is open, then fast user switch to another account and open Safari, then switch back to the first account. This is reproducable.

I will uninstall Mouseworks and try again.

[mikemako]

Originally posted by Spaztik:
I'm sick of hearing about Panther...

Dude.. this is a Panther thread, of course you're going to hear about Panther if you click on the link to come in.

It doesn't hurt anything to discuss some of the bugs we've found regardless if it's GM or not. If users know in advance about the bugs the new system has, there will be more people noticing if the bugs are still there or if they've been squashed when they have their copy, and more feedback to Apple = 10.3.1 sooner.

[Musti]

Originally posted by MadBrowser:
I'm still pissed the damn pirates get the GM build before most ADC members.

They could at least post GM for DL like they did for Jaguar.

Boo.

So you'll get your hands on the leaked build and become one of those "damn pirates"? As if you wouldn't have done it had you had the chance, by now.

[daydreamer]

My 17inch Apple LCD has no brightness slider anymore in Panther.. the brightness button on the screen doesnt work to.. its just gone. Does someone have the same problem?

[MadBrowser]

Originally posted by Musti:
So you'll get your hands on the leaked build and become one of those "damn pirates"? As if you wouldn't have done it had you had the chance, by now.

Huh? I could find the leaked builds in a sec if I wanted to wait around for days waiting for DLs, etc...

I pay for ADC. It's a lot more convenient.

I do wonder why the GM build isn't posted online as they must already know that it has leaked out. That can't be the reason to not offer it.

I'm not sure what you're implying. I am not copping a holier than thou attitude. I could care less who pirates what... That's Apple's problem. I don't share the builds I get from ADC but obviously some folks do. Whatever. I still would like Apple to post a more recent build on ADC so I can download it from them. It's just easier that way (for me).

And to play devil's advocate here, I'm not sure that all people would rather download a pirated build, even if all folks were able to find them. Some people are not interested in them for many reasons and prefer builds from officially sanctioned channels.

Whatever.

[vision619]

Originally posted by MadBrowser:
And to play devil's advocate here, I'm not sure that all people would rather download a pirated build, even if all folks were able to find them. Some people are not interested in them for many reasons and prefer builds from officially sanctioned channels.

i have b85, but there's no way i'm putting that on my machine. i use this machine to pay my bills and put food on my table. it's not worth the risk of any kind of data loss .. to me anyway. i can garauntee you that no one here REALLY knows what the GM # is, i don't care what they say.

... not that anyone cares

BTW ... mikemako, your response to

I'm so sick of Panther

was freakin funny.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by vision619:
i can garauntee you that no one here REALLY knows what the GM # is, i don't care what they say.

We'll see you on the 24th

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Spaztik:
<snip whine>
As it stands now... I am in 7B85 and it's definately the best version of Panther I have used, but I don't believe that it's done.

Jag still wasn't done either, hence the latest 10.2.8 upgrade. Certainly the GM will be the best version so far and it is destined to be improved until 10.4 comes out.

[Souljah]

Im a ADC member and it is a little annoying that we can get a supposed leaked GM faster on Bit Torrent than through official channels.

BTW it doesnt take days waiting around nor 6 hours to DL...try appx. 4 hours with 60 peers pumping out all 3 cds.

This build even went to SU for iCal and iSync.

If this wasn't GM why would it ask for registration and update to the new released iApps?

Hmmm.... we'll see.

[Eug Wanker]

Odd and meaningless xeyes/Expose bug

[JLL]

Originally posted by Souljah:
If this wasn't GM why would it ask for registration and update to the new released iApps?

All builds of Panther have the registration part.

[Diggory Laycock]

What is going on in the AppleScript Menu Department?

It seems like UI war has broken out. DVD player (and now AddressBook alas) are using the old OS 9-style AppleScript Menu - Which I think is ugly, in the wrong place and interferes with the behaviour of the new Script Menu.

Which leads to the following: (photoshopped so you can see contents of both menus at the same time.)



and



Trying to get rid of the old DVD scripts doesn't work - it just recreates them in your ~/Library/Scripts folder - which is very annoying since they then pollute the new Script menu.

[mikemako]

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

I noticed this yesterday, too (7B74, though). I had no iTunes involved and Logitech mouse software. Damn, I was hoping the Logitech driver was (were? I never get that) the culprit...

I removed the Kensington Mousworks software and disabled Fast User Switching.. My boyfriend is upset that I decided to install Panther on the main computer (before I had it only on my iBook for testing).. I get home from work and I hear "Panther is REALLY messing up the computer"! ..and he's right. He says "It's so much slower than Jaguar! Look at the menubar"! (He's talking about how now the menubar slides in like the dock when you log in).

Also, he has a custom sound file that plays when he receives mail and in Panther there is a *POP* before and after the sound file plays.. weird, huh? I went into the options to change the sound file and the sheet dropped down and turned white and then disappeard! After a while it returned and I was able to select the sound file I needed.

I ran disk warrior and it found a bunch of errors, I rebuilt the disk so hopefully that'll fix it. I'll report back with any info I uncover.

[addiecool]

I am running 10.3 7b85 on my pwermac g4 dual 800 quicksilver with 1 GB RAM. I have a Revolution 7,1 sound card which started workign under Panther with the latest driver update from M-audio. But sometimes while opening a quicktime video file or playing a song itunes, the whole system just freezes. No errors nothing.... just a sudden freeze, no mouse movement either.

I have been able to replicate this problem many times.

is anyone else experiencing this?

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by vision619:
i have b85, but there's no way i'm putting that on my machine.

Me too, I've already ordered the client and server versions( I always have to get it first, habit., but after using 7b85 there's too many little bugs and minor problems that would get in the way of working on it full time. I'll put it on one machine just to for testing, but wait until most of the apps I use are updated, and have been tested properly on it.

[mikemako]

Originally posted by addiecool:
...But sometimes while opening a quicktime video file or playing a song itunes, the whole system just freezes. No errors nothing.... just a sudden freeze, no mouse movement either.

Hey.. Did you clean install Panther, upgrade, or archive and install? Did you carry over any library or preference files from your account that was on Jaguar?

Thanks.

[solitere]

Originally posted by addiecool:
I am running 10.3 7b85 on my pwermac g4 dual 800 quicksilver with 1 GB RAM. I have a Revolution 7,1 sound card which started workign under Panther with the latest driver update from M-audio. But sometimes while opening a quicktime video file or playing a song itunes, the whole system just freezes. No errors nothing.... just a sudden freeze, no mouse movement either.

I have been able to replicate this problem many times.

is anyone else experiencing this?

I have aprox.. the same config on one of my G4 dual machines. I have only experienced system freeze when have put machine into sleep... and starting up the machine again.
But then I also got a lot of extra hardware attach to this machine (Acard cards, Sonica usb audio stuff scanners) Any of these could cause problems if the drivers is not properly updated for 10.3.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by addiecool:
I am running 10.3 7b85 on my pwermac g4 dual 800 quicksilver with 1 GB RAM. I have a Revolution 7,1 sound card which started workign under Panther with the latest driver update from M-audio. But sometimes while opening a quicktime video file or playing a song itunes, the whole system just freezes. No errors nothing.... just a sudden freeze, no mouse movement either.

I have been able to replicate this problem many times.

is anyone else experiencing this?

Somebody reported on Ars to having random kernel panics with Panther and an M-audio card.

[Lyra]

Hey

Just dropped a not to you, it seems B85 isn't a GM after all...

A good friend of mine is working for Apple, she told me that they stopped with the dev. seedings as they were more or less done. Also they needed set a few things straight before announcing it a GM.

All I know is she has a different version then B85 and it looks a little bit different. Also acts a bit faster.

I got from her the B85, installed it on my iMac800 G4, and to be honest some of the other builds were faster then this one. Don't ask me how this is, it just is.

Now, I need to ask you people, when you do an install of any OS when it is a FULL os and not just an update, do you do a clean install or an upgrade? I did an Upgrade. Could that be why it is slower then before?

Also the Snap To Grid is all messed up in B85, on the left side of the screen, it simply does not match the right side of it. I mean the icons simple cannot stand next to each other and worst there is a big space between the the left side of the screen and the right. So the left side cannot hold half as many Icons as the right side...

Also it takes almost 4min to start up, and then another 1 or 2 min from the spinning circle. So it just has the Apple logo for 4min and nothing happens... Any ideas what that could be?

Sorry but I don't know what version of OS X 10.3 she had on hers, but she said it was never and that it was the final version.

I'll see her again once it is released so can get my own copy but, this is getting to me, cause I thought the problems or bugs would be none existing in such an everyday usage of the OS, and I mean what, 2 more builds could have come out since 85? How much could they have fix in that amount of time?

I need someone with the same build as the one she is using or newer then 85 to tell me if the snap to grid bug is fixed and a what to do about the start up...

Thanks

[Busemann]

Originally posted by Lyra:
Hey

Just dropped a not to you, it seems B85 isn't a GM after all...

A good friend of mine is working for Apple, she told me that they stopped with the dev. seedings as they were more or less done. Also they needed set a few things straight before announcing it a GM.

All I know is she has a different version then B85 and it looks a little bit different. Also acts a bit faster.

I got from her the B85, installed it on my iMac800 G4, and to be honest some of the other builds were faster then this one. Don't ask me how this is, it just is.

Now, I need to ask you people, when you do an install of any OS when it is a FULL os and not just an update, do you do a clean install or an upgrade? I did an Upgrade. Could that be why it is slower then before?

Also the Snap To Grid is all messed up in B85, on the left side of the screen, it simply does not match the right side of it. I mean the icons simple cannot stand next to each other and worst there is a big space between the the left side of the screen and the right. So the left side cannot hold half as many Icons as the right side...

Also it takes almost 4min to start up, and then another 1 or 2 min from the spinning circle. So it just has the Apple logo for 4min and nothing happens... Any ideas what that could be?

Sorry but I don't know what version of OS X 10.3 she had on hers, but she said it was never and that it was the final version.

I'll see her again once it is released so can get my own copy but, this is getting to me, cause I thought the problems or bugs would be none existing in such an everyday usage of the OS, and I mean what, 2 more builds could have come out since 85? How much could they have fix in that amount of time?

I need someone with the same build as the one she is using or newer then 85 to tell me if the snap to grid bug is fixed and a what to do about the start up...

Thanks

Umm.. i have 85 and no problems with snap to grid at all. Boot times is unbeliveably fast on my MDD 1,25 Ghz. Much faster than Jaguar. The boot panel only says "welcome to macintosh" and sudddenly the login panel appears

85 has bugs, but hey! tell me an OS that hasn't

[- - e r i k - -]

If what you say is true she is most likely on the 7Cxx builds (10.3.1?)

[addiecool]

Originally posted by mikemako:
Hey.. Did you clean install Panther, upgrade, or archive and install? Did you carry over any library or preference files from your account that was on Jaguar?

Thanks.

clean install on a formatted drive. It could be a revolution driver bug or maybe some incompatibility issue. I hope they fix it soon. It is really annoying.....

[Eug Wanker]

Anybody having sleep issues? My TiBook doesn't consistently sleep automatically anymore in Panther, although it did when I first installed it.

[chuckeroo]

Is the Secure Delete function still in Panther?
I remember reading about the 3 different levels of secure delete that you were going to be able to use. How do you get that function to work?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by chuckeroo:
Is the Secure Delete function still in Panther?
I remember reading about the 3 different levels of secure delete that you were going to be able to use. How do you get that function to work?

Still there. Just "Secure delete" though. No multiple settings.

-s*

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by addiecool:
I am running 10.3 7b85 on my pwermac g4 dual 800 quicksilver with 1 GB RAM. I have a Revolution 7,1 sound card which started workign under Panther with the latest driver update from M-audio. But sometimes while opening a quicktime video file or playing a song itunes, the whole system just freezes. No errors nothing.... just a sudden freeze, no mouse movement either.

I have been able to replicate this problem many times.

is anyone else experiencing this?

I don't have an M-audio card, but 7B74 on a clean install froze for 10-20 seconds, iTunes stopped, no mouse movement and Menumeters was showing 4-5Mbs download.
It turned out to be a broadcast storm on our LAN when a new 6 blade server box was connected, causing our entire LAN to go down.
All OS 9 Macs had to restart, several XP boxes blue-screened and OS X froze but recovered. I have never seen anything happen like this before.
The 4-5Mbs via the ethernet connection certainly brought OS X to its knees.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by piracy:
I'll help:

2.

I don't think the images are old or even "simply modified". Like Spatztik said they are just high resolution mockups that were made for print. They're not screenshots at all. Lots of the screenshots' fonts are obviously faked and in this photo:



Loke someone mentioned, the bottom press release photo's scrollbar is active while the window is active. An oversight by the person who made the mockup. The close, minimize, maximize widgets are completely different. They don't look like that just with some saturation. The bevel of the scroll views is also different as is the search field.

Oh and:








(Is platinum blue back? heh)

Shrink them down and you have your "outdated screenshots".

[Me�vv]

Originally posted by Eug:
Why do people care so much? I believe 7B85 is the GM, but even if it isn't, who the frig cares? It doesn't make 7B85 any less good. It's not perfect, but it's certainly ready for prime time.

Two words: Future Compatible.

What if it is not recognized by Software Update (like previous builds)? I could for example not just run Software update from my 7B44 and expect to get 10.3.1 when it comes out..

The functionality of 7B85 might be essentially equat to 10.3 but to start using it seriously 7B85 must BE 10.3.

It seems puzzling that some people seem to have different set of icons than others... Are there different 7B85 floating around...?