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nayr x · 01:31 AM

So... aside from a few new tricks like expose and a more streamlined file browsing architecture... and the obvious necessity-driven ability to run the G5 like it's 'sposta... Do you all think that this release of Mac OS X will be THAT different? In looking at screen shots and reading some of the resources online, I can see some great ideas and workflow improvements... but in my opinion, this release does not seem worthy of as much hype as it's getting. (I know, i know... apple is a super-hype driven machine). This is supposed to be the equal/"trumper" of all of microsoft's Longhorn plans, right? It seems like it is just a revamp of 10.2.x to me (?). Hopefully it will give my older PBG4 a shot in the ol' arm... but I wonder if it's truly worthy of new feline nomenclature... I just can foresee some disappointment if this turns out to be just another 10.2.x update with a few new hot keys. Especially when Longhorn is coming out in 3years... thats a long time to build a new OS... I cant imagine Microsoft unveiling something that is only about the equal to what panther will be when it's released in a few days here. (Of course if it's windows, it will probably STILL suck.) Anyway, just my opinion...

What do all you think?

Catfish_Man · Oct 17, 2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by nayr x:
So... aside from a few new tricks like expose and a more streamlined file browsing architecture... and the obvious necessity-driven ability to run the G5 like it's 'sposta... Do you all think that this release of Mac OS X will be THAT different? In looking at screen shots and reading some of the resources online, I can see some great ideas and workflow improvements... but in my opinion, this release does not seem worthy of as much hype as it's getting. (I know, i know... apple is a super-hype driven machine). This is supposed to be the equal/"trumper" of all of microsoft's Longhorn plans, right? It seems like it is just a revamp of 10.2x to me (?). Hopefully it will give my older PBG4 a shot in the ol' arm... but I wonder if it's truly worthy of new feline nomenclature... I just can foresee some disappointment if this turns out to be just another 10.2 update with a few new hot keys. Especially when Longhorn is coming out in 3years... thats a long time to build a new OS... I cant imagine Microsoft unveiling something that is only about the equal to what panther will be when it's released in a few days here. (Of course if it's windows, it will probably STILL suck.) Anyway, just my opinion...

What do all you think?

Ummmm... ALL the .x updates have had new cat names (Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther). Panther is definitely just as big as 10.0->10.1, or 10.1->10.2. I'm running Panther, and it's great. You're just scratching the surface with workflow improvements, the guts have changed in some really nice ways (MS Word compatibility, vastly improved PDF handling, improved IPv6 support and windows networking support, etc...). I highly doubt 10.3 is going to be a Longhorn killer, but 10.5 might be

nayr x · Oct 17, 2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
Ummmm... ALL the .x updates have had new cat names (Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther). Panther is definitely just as big as 10.0->10.1, or 10.1->10.2.

As I said: "a 10.2 update" (i.e. 10.2.X...) I understand the number of cats apple has, uh adopted.. I just don't feel as excited as I did before, say... jaguar (because I did fall victim to hype...) The list of improvements posted by apple just does not impress me the way i would hope to be impressed by the next generation of OS. You can tell when expose is listed first in every paragraph regarding improvements that it is probably going to be the only really notable difference besides overall speed improvements and stability. (Oh, and maybe a new button in "mail")

- - e r i k - - · Oct 17, 2003, 01:53 AM

You SHOULD feel excited. Panther gives a definite speed-improvement, i.e. no touchy-feely snappier� effect due to placebo or clean install, but a noticeable speed-gain.

The workflow improvements and Expos� should not and can not be understated. It's a dream come true. You'll notice various little things virtually everywhere, from the real-time filtering of files in Finder to the eye-popping sheet effects. Or if you have bluetooth the way SMSing is handled in address book. Or how iCal's window resizing is no different from any other window.

There's also an unparalleled stability in this system. For the last builds I have had not one system crash.

There are plenty of REAL improvements in Panther, and I were just as excited (if not more) than I was for Jaguar.

Jim_MDP · Oct 17, 2003, 01:56 AM

First... your sig says it all. I had hoped you would put a smilie with your pissy moaning but I'll just have to live with the disappointment.

Now... depending on what kind of use you put your Mac to, this list should either put a big grin on you puss or have you doing cartwheels with glee:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/compare.html

This in NOT your father's point upgrade.

And I'm just being a smartass with ya, now back to my own ennui. :-)

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 17, 2003, 01:56 AM

10.2 was much more exciting with many more improvements. It also had a huge speed gain. No matter what anyone here has said I haven't seen that much of a speed increase on a iBook, G4 Cube or Dual G5.

Unless you use Expos� it really isn't worth it.

For me it is worth it JUST for Expos� and the cleaner Aqua and the pinstripes drove me nuts.

Jim_MDP · Oct 17, 2003, 02:28 AM

Wow, you really are disgruntled.

DBvader · 02:43 AM

im running 7B85, and i bought panther for 20 dollars (since my sister got a powerbook last week), and i can say that its not as amazing of a step up from jaguar (which was released about the same time i got my Dual 867 (my first mac)). When i got my mac, i thougt it wasnt very responsive, but by the eighth update, jag was pretty fast. I know people say that for the older systems, its a huge speed increase. I dont notice a thing else i wouldnt notice if i did a fresh install of jag. None of the apps have been updated to the point where they were just so much more innovative (dont have an isight and i dont plan to use iChatAV). When jag came out there were slews of new apps...now we just have logical updates (even though iTunes still cant sort Artist>Album>Date of Release (instead of alphabetical order) expose is awesome and i set it up to go when i move my mouse down to the lower right, so its super streamlined. Games also run noticebley faster (which is fantastic). But thats about it. Finder is now a lot better, and a lot more explorer like (eject button is an excellent touch). Yay...

I would have a hard time forking out the full price of 129 dollars for this...and im glad i dont have to.

"You SHOULD feel excited. Panther gives a definite speed-improvement, i.e. no touchy-feely snappier� effect due to placebo or clean install, but a noticeable speed-gain."

It doesnt feel at all faster on my Dual 867 than 10.2.8.

"The workflow improvements and Expos� should not and can not be understated. It's a dream come true. You'll notice various little things virtually everywhere, from the real-time filtering of files in Finder to the eye-popping sheet effects. Or if you have bluetooth the way SMSing is handled in address book. Or how iCal's window resizing is no different from any other window."

expose is great, but im not sure about how much it improves workflow (or maybe my res is high enough to where app switching isnt that huge of an issue). There are a lot of apps, most metal ones actually, that dont resize real time...which is weird, windows has been able to do this for years. Other than that, i dont think all that fluff is worth 130 dollars...

"There's also an unparalleled stability in this system. For the last builds I have had not one system crash."

Yeah but Jag was amazingly stable as well, my computer rarely crashed, and now it feels just as stable. There are a few apps that have issues with panther, such as menumeters, matlab, and USB overdrive. My 52 X burner also didnt work until a disc and permissions repair (on a freshly formatted drive)...weird.

Im not trying to say youre completely wrong, there are some great improvement (especially in gaming performance), but this is hardly the update jag was with its sheets of new features, programs, and quirks. Jag was such a big step up from 10.1 and Windows that it easily was enough to covert me to the mac side. If I was on a Jaguar machine, and another vendor came out with panther, i wouldnt swutch to their machine (hopefully that makes sense)

nayr x · Oct 17, 2003, 02:35 AM

Sorry to be such a buzz kill..It was not my intent to come across as "whiney" or "Pissy"... I will agree there a lot of features on that list (linked to by jim_MDP) are wonderful, and they do get me antsy to get my hands on a copy and try it for myself, but to be fair, only about 1/10th of the features are unique to Panther and not just improvements from jaguar. (Not to say jaguar isn't great).

I guess im just jealous of some of the other OSes out there. I mean Macs are great and all.. But have you seen the GUI for those computers in Zion? Or the one Tom Cruz has in Minority Report? I bet Jobs has something like that he keeps hidden in his basement... it's a conspiracy I tell'z ya!

Chuckit · Oct 17, 2003, 03:05 AM

Features that seem like major improvements to me, many of which people have been begging for:

- Fast User Switching
- Universal Word .doc compatibility
- Amazing PDF support
- Expose
- Font Book
- Universal faxing support
- In-Finder compression
- Proper labels

If it were only one of these being added, I'd say it's a pretty big improvement for a point release. For all of these changes (as well as others I didn't feel like putting on my list, like FileVault, which has some people all hot and bothered), I'd say that's way more than a point release.

Honestly, I don't know how you could be so underwhelmed. Out of all the things Jaguar added, Rendezvous, Quartz Extreme and the firewall GUI were the only things that actually offered me any benefit. (And since I still use both 10.2 and 10.1, I'm not just forgetting how it used to be.) I haven't used Panther, but just conceptually, I actually consider the first two on my list to be bigger improvements than those three.

Jim_MDP · 09:38 AM

Yeah, this is such a personal thing...

As I said with that list page, it depends on what uses you put your Mac to.

Remember, this was the premiere OS for graphics pros for a long while. And though I haven't done any of that work in a decade, I got the feeling that that had slipped badly in the last four years or so. Maybe longer. Just FontBook alone should make anyone in typography or publishing ecstatic. SysAdmins should find plenty to be happy about as well. Who knows how many different types of users will love the new sys just because of a feature or three.

For myself, I stayed with 1.5 for the longest time. Only a few months ago did I make the jump, and it was all the way up to 2.6. Nothing about it stands out the way I feel about this upgrade.

I think it's a winner, many others do too, some do not. And with my G3 400 Pismo, I don't have QE, so no user switching 'cube' for me.

Everyone cry for Jim now... on three

mitchell_pgh · Oct 17, 2003, 07:15 AM

As sad as this may seem... Apple should have pulled a

Mac OS X

to

Mac OS X v11

to

Mac OS X v12

to

Mac OS X v13

I don't think people understand how major these updates are. It's like going from Windows 95 to Winows 2000 with not only no slow down, but a speed up!

hudson1 · Oct 17, 2003, 07:17 AM

I'm with those who are struggling to find where Panther is as big a deal as Jaguar was when it was released. Here are what I perceive as the four biggest advances with Panther and my thoughts on them as a home user:

1) Expose -- Nice but I don't have 18 windows open at any time.

2) Fast user switching -- Yes, this is a very good thing for home users.

3) Faster PDF support -- Yet to figure out why this is a big deal.

4) Word compatibility in TextEdit -- I already have MS Office and the new Edu Edition barely costs more than Panther itself. And that's for all four apps.

Are any of these even close to the perceived benefit that Quartz Extreme is for most users? Nevertheless, I'm sure I'm sure I'll buy Panther. It's just that I doubt it will be right on Oct. 24.

mitchell_pgh · Oct 17, 2003, 07:18 AM

On second though, if I only used my computer once every other day for 5 mins to check my e-Mail and surf the news...

$129 would be a big pill to take.

Spaztik · Oct 17, 2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
On second though, if I only used my computer once every other day for 5 mins to check my e-Mail and surf the news...

$129 would be a big pill to take.

Check your email faster!

eevyl · Oct 17, 2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by hudson1:
3) Faster PDF support -- Yet to figure out why this is a big deal.

Well, opening a large PDF file in pre-10.3 is just a pain. The little previews in the drawer draw slower than if I do them by hand. Searching in Acrobat Reader kind of sucks and it is slow as hell also.

Preview in Panther just flies. Open PDF files in a breeze, render the drawer previews on the fly, and the search is truly amazingly fast.

For me, it is a really big deal.

cambro · Oct 17, 2003, 09:41 AM

So let me get this straight....

You're suggesting that 10.3 isn't that big of a deal because Longhorn, which might be released in THREE YEARS, has time to catch up with it as it is now??? What is Apple going to do? Sit with it's thumb up its rump for those three years??

Go read the Apple "what's new" pages. There's plenty to be excited about. But this is 10.3, not 11.0. OF COURSE there aren't broad sweeping changes to every aspect of the system!

Don't buy it if you don't think it's worth it, but I'll definitely be laying down the cash for this update/upgrade/point-release/whatever you want to call it, because unless all you do is check email and surf the web, it is definitely worth every penny.

PBG4 User · Oct 17, 2003, 10:40 AM

For me, I'm excited to get my hands on xCode. The developer tools alone are worth hundreds, check out what Visual Studio will cost you then come back and complain about the $129 price.

Of course, this means nothing for non-coders.

Also, let's compare Apple's OS development to MS. Whenever MS puts out a new OS, you need to "upgrade" to hardware that can handle the bloat. Have you seen the tentative requirements for "Longhorn"? You will need a 64MB 3d card at minimum!

Each OS X update has allowed the OS to run more efficiently on the same hardware while adding new capabilities at the same time. To me, this is an amazing feat.

mediacoop · Oct 17, 2003, 10:45 AM

i'm also noticing a change in my memory usage. i'm pretty sure i'm not going nuts. i use menumeters so i've got a good idea of how much was being used in jag... assuming that menumeters is reporting properly i'm seeing more free memory open. i'm using apps like mail, safari, ichat, itunes, address book, indesign, photoshop, romeo on a 1st gen powerbook 12" with 640 MB ram... and i'm not seeing my free ram dip below 200mb. under jag it always showed at below100... usually under 50.

is it possible that panther is using ram differently, more efficiently?

i think it's a worthy upgrade. each app that has been improved, some have been completely transformed: finder, preview, address book, mail, safari... system wide faxing. when you get into the details of all of these changes it's quite impressive. across the board speed improvements and continued rock solid stability.

yeah, i'd say it's significant and certainly worth the upgrade.

wadesworld · Oct 17, 2003, 11:17 AM

If you're into Unix at all, Panther is definitely worth the upgrade. It's got a ton of changes under the hood that make porting Unix programs easier, and thus, will enable lots of new applications on Panther.

Wade

mitchell_pgh · Oct 17, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by wadesworld:
If you're into Unix at all, Panther is definitely worth the upgrade. It's got a ton of changes under the hood that make porting Unix programs easier, and thus, will enable lots of new applications on Panther.

Wade

That's what I'm a little nervous about. I have a ton of shell scripts doing who knows what in the background... I sure hope they all work well... I'm a shell script hack, so I wouldn't be surprised it they didn't work.

Webscreamer · Oct 17, 2003, 12:42 PM

Besides all the new effects and eye candy in OS X 10.0-10.3. To ME, 10.3 actually adds NEW features that we have never really seen before in other OS X versions. 10.0-10.2 just seemed to be putting back in OS 9 features people liked. 10.3 adds new amazing inovation to the Mac OS we havn't seen is a while....

Just my opinion...

Powaqqatsi · Oct 17, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by PBG4 User:
Have you seen the tentative requirements for "Longhorn"? You will need a 64MB 3d card at minimum!

IIRC in the beginning it was 128 MB.

hadocon · Oct 17, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
That's what I'm a little nervous about. I have a ton of shell scripts doing who knows what in the background... I sure hope they all work well... I'm a shell script hack, so I wouldn't be surprised it they didn't work.

They will work... at worst you will have to tell your system to use the old shell, or tweak your scripts for the new one.

nayr x · Oct 17, 2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by cambro:
So let me get this straight....

You're suggesting that 10.3 isn't that big of a deal because Longhorn, which might be released in THREE YEARS, has time to catch up with it as it is now??? What is Apple going to do? Sit with it's thumb up its rump for those three years??

To quote the very first paragraph on apple's panther page: "Mac OS X has evolved. The fourth major release in just three years, Panther offers breakthroughs in innovation, ease of use and reliability that won�t be seen in other operating systems for years, if ever.
"
To me, (and i could be wrong) this is making a direct stab at windows systems (which it should!) and then directly alluding to the future release of their competetor's OS (Which I assume to be MS Longhorn) and basically saying that panther is greater than or equal to whatever will be released at that date. That was my interpretation.

The only reason I tied the far-off longhorn into this is for the same reasons you are rolling your iconic eyes at me. My main point is that this release (while providing some good features) is just the logical progression in the OSX lineage, and the fact that it is coming 3 years earlier than LH means nothing, other than we get faster user-switching first (or whatever). Im sure LH will be a force to be reckoned with, and it will be X.4 or .5...( or who knows) that will go up against it.

I know I will end up upgrading to panth' (maybe after the first bug fix).. I was just questioning the need for a day/hour/min/sec countdown until the release of this OS upgrade. (I will countdown the release of OS XV.0, though...

)

cpac · Oct 17, 2003, 07:30 PM

how about better exchange support in Mail, Address Book, and iCal?

how about smb printing without hacks/reverting to a 10.2.4 version of a file?

these are HUGE factors for those dealing with windows-centric networks....

PBG4 User · Oct 17, 2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
how about better exchange support in Mail, Address Book, and iCal?

how about smb printing without hacks/reverting to a 10.2.4 version of a file?

these are HUGE factors for those dealing with windows-centric networks....

From http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/printing/

SMB Printing
Print directly to Windows shared printers over the SMB protocol.

BurpetheadX · Oct 17, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Jim_MDP:
First... your sig says it all. I had hoped you would put a smilie with your pissy moaning but I'll just have to live with the disappointment.

Now... depending on what kind of use you put your Mac to, this list should either put a big grin on you puss or have you doing cartwheels with glee:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/compare.html

This in NOT your father's point upgrade.

And I'm just being a smartass with ya, now back to my own ennui. :-)

Video CD playback in QuickTime - Check!

Bout Time!

daftpig · Oct 19, 2003, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by nayr x:

I was just questioning the need for a day/hour/min/sec countdown until the release of this OS upgrade.

There's something else called capitalism. You have to trust your own mind not to accept the fluff from marketing.

BZ · Oct 19, 2003, 07:55 AM

Longhorn? Are you kidding?

Microsoft says they can't release it (won't) till 2006. At that point, going by Apple's OSX releases we should all be on 10.5.8 and have pre-ordered 10.6.

This is Microsoft tactic 100% of the way. Start talking about a competing product that will be released in many years, to scare people off of moving to another competitor, or at least keep them waiting.

As far as I am concerned, Longhorn is a pipe dream. When it is shipped, and ONLY when it is shipped, should we see what it compares to. I can tell you though, looking at the model that Apple and Microsoft are doing OS updates with, that it looks like OSX 10.x will be years ahead of Longhorn, just by having been updated for years.

BZ