[Appleman]

I was wondering if it's possib;e to replace my current Airport card in my PowerMac G5 with an Aiport N card?
Cannot find it but I wouldn't know why not possible?
Thanks.

[ghporter]

No. It's a completely different kind of card, and to top it off, the N card requires different antennas that aren't in ANY computer not built for that new card.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

No. It's a completely different kind of card, and to top it off, the N card requires different antennas that aren't in ANY computer not built for that new card.

Was afraid so. That actually means using a Apple TV with my PowerMac slows it down to G?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

No. It's a completely different kind of card, and to top it off, the N card requires different antennas that aren't in ANY computer not built for that new card.

I know we've been through the antenna argument before with a laptop...

Is the internal wireless on a Mac Pro a MiniPCI-e card like that in the CD and C2D MB and MBP, or is a PCI card like what any PC desktop uses?

Also, the xlr8yourmac front page has an article this morning about a guy who successfully put a C2D card in his CD MBP.

Originally Posted by xlr8yourmac

"Hi Mike, I read with interest Julian's account of upgrading his core duo MacBook Pro (Julian didn't mention the exact model, but assumed to be a MBP/MB) to 802.11n using a Dell card. A couple of days ago I installed an Apple Airport Extreme card from a Core2Duo MacBook Pro into my CoreDuo 2.16GHz MacBook Pro. (I asked him were he bought it and how much-Mike) The card itself physically fits perfectly but on the 802.11n card there are 3 antenna connections.
(the Mac Pro tower module has only two antenna connections I think, although isn't there an unused wire in the Mac Pro? (The dell 1500 uses broadcom chip as does Mac Pro - OEM Macbook/Macbook Pro core2 wireless card is Atheros based). A photo of the dell 1500 card at an ebay auction showed only 2 antenna connections, unless there was another that isn't seen in the photo.-Mike)

In my MacBook Pro I have only 2 antennas. The card was recognised and using Pacifist I installed the enabler and re-booted. Network utility now shows the card as a/b/g/n supported. I noticed straight away that I had better range with the 802.11g networks I have access to as well as finding far more networks than the standard card. I have not yet been able to test with an 802.11n router (no new Airport Extremes yet where I work in Australia) and I feel that because of the lack of the third antenna the important MIMO part of 802.11n is missing and will effect my ability to get full 802.11n speeds.
(MIMO is Multiple Input Multiple Output, a smart antenna technique to increase speed, range, reliability and spectral efficiency.-Mike)
I will let you know when I have tested with an Airport Extreme when they arrive and also if I find a suitable antenna I can add and fit inside the already cramped MacBook Pro. If any of your readers can suggest a suitable antenna, that would be fantastic.
Regards,
Jeremy"

An antenna is just a wire. Unless the new N cards use antennas made from a different kind of special material that is only compatible with those cards, you SHOULD be able to put an N card in a computer that claims it's not designed for it. If there is a PCI or PCI-e 802.11n card on the market with a chipset that is compatible with OS X (e.g. the same chipset that the Airport Extreme drivers expect to see), I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't work.

[shifuimam]

Also:

Originally Posted by xlr8yourmac

" So I was really pissed about only having G because of being an early adopter. So I started looking what could I do about it. Browsing the net, I found out that the new core2duo machines actually use a broadcom chip (Actually as mentioned here previously, the Core2Duo MacBook/MacBook Pros use the Atheros AR5008 Chip, although the Mac Pro uses a Broadcom chip (not sure on chip version no.) - the Apple 802.11n enabler supports both. See notes on Mac 802.11n page here.-Mike) and this chip is the same one in Dell Wireless 1500 adapters. (Dell notebook mini PCI-e card)

I bought one of those Dell 1500 cards on ebay, (I searched google and found the Dell 1500 card for as low as $52.xx, although an ebay auction had over 100 of them at $90 "Buy it Now" price. Searching ebay.com found other auctions also with Buy it now prices of $43.99 and $55.99. I'd prefer confirmation on this before buying though and I wonder if Dell is dumping these for some reason (do they have upgradeable firmware for future draft N changes?-Mike) and using the great guides on ifixit, change the card on my machine.
(He didn't mention which CoreDuo Mac he had (Macbook? Macbook Pro? iMac? Mini?) but I'm assuming a Macbook or Macbook Pro since iFixit's guides don' t cover the intel-based Mini or iMac.-Mike)

On boot, the card is recognized (and even more stable than the older one). The enabler didn't want to work (wouldn't install I assume he means) on my system though. So I opened it in pacifist, (available here-Mike) and moved the file to the System folder, and magic! I have draft-N in my macbook coreduo
Hope you can publish this and it helps someone.
-Julian"

It can be done, and it has been done. It may take a little system tweak to make a CD Mac recognize a card from a C2D Mac (or, in Julian's case, a Dell card), but it can be done and would be worth the effort for some users.

[ghporter]

The "an antenna is just a wire" is both true and false. It's my impression that the three antennas in the Core 2 Duo machines are tuned for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz-and this is very important to performance. Tuning an antenna is very important, because it not only ensures better transmission and reception range, but it more effectively terminates the transmitter circuits. This is crucial because the transmitter generates radio power and it has to go somewhere; if it isn't properly radiated by an antenna, it winds up just generating heat-and sometimes a lot of it.

If the 2.4GHz antennas in a Core Duo machine aren't properly tuned, you will NOT see 5GHz performance at the level you should, and it could actually damage the card to use them. Further, having only two antennas attached could damage the card's third transmitter system because it has no load. These are relatively extreme cautions, since the card doesn't push much power, but with cards getting smaller and smaller, there's less physical mass to absorb the energy that should be radiated and that could indeed cause physical damage.

So sure, you "CAN" do this, but don't expect it to be as good as the actual AirPort card, and don't be surprised if the card quits because it doesn't have the right antennas and it burns up.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Is the internal wireless on a Mac Pro a MiniPCI-e card like that in the CD and C2D MB and MBP, or is a PCI card like what any PC desktop uses?

AFAIK it's a proprietary slot that no one else uses; separate AP and BT cards explain why there are only 2 antennas for the AP.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The "an antenna is just a wire" is both true and false. It's my impression that the three antennas in the Core 2 Duo machines are tuned for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz-and this is very important to performance. Tuning an antenna is very important, because it not only ensures better transmission and reception range, but it more effectively terminates the transmitter circuits. This is crucial because the transmitter generates radio power and it has to go somewhere; if it isn't properly radiated by an antenna, it winds up just generating heat-and sometimes a lot of it.

If the 2.4GHz antennas in a Core Duo machine aren't properly tuned, you will NOT see 5GHz performance at the level you should, and it could actually damage the card to use them. Further, having only two antennas attached could damage the card's third transmitter system because it has no load. These are relatively extreme cautions, since the card doesn't push much power, but with cards getting smaller and smaller, there's less physical mass to absorb the energy that should be radiated and that could indeed cause physical damage.

The Core Duos should have a 5Ghz tuned antenna for 802.11a.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by mduell 

AFAIK it's a proprietary slot that no one else uses; separate AP and BT cards explain why there are only 2 antennas for the AP.

It's too bad that Apple didn't use a standard for that one. PowerMacs have PCI slots though, right? So a PCI wireless card with the proper chipset should work.

The Core Duos should have a 5Ghz tuned antenna for 802.11a.

Just out of curiosity, how does one tune an antenna? e.g. is it tuned at the point where the antenna attaches to the card, so the connector on the card is doing the tuning, or is there some way to "tune" the physical antenna? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If that was the case, then it shouldn't be possible to put a B/G MiniPCI card in Dell laptop that was made before 802.11g existed...but it is. I can see how multiple coaxial connections on a card will each receive and transmit different frequencies, but I don't see how the little wires that are embedded behind the LCD and reach down to the card are different from each other.

I suppose I'm likening it to HDTV vs SDTV broadcasts. The same $10 antenna will receive both signals - it's up the TV to decide if it can receive the HDTV signal, and if it can, it displays the signal on the screen. If the TV's tuner can't read HDTV, then it ignores the singal. I don't understand how this is any different.

Not trying to be ornery - just want to be better educated.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The Core Duos should have a 5Ghz tuned antenna for 802.11a.

Really? This is news to me; my Core Duo MacBook Pro has 802.11a capability?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Really? This is news to me; my Core Duo MacBook Pro has 802.11a capability?

According to the FCC regulatory and EU regulatory statements in the back of the manual downloaded from Apple's support site, yes, you do. It's just not advertised with that functionality, likely because Apple made no 802.11a AP when the MacBook was released.

802.11a capability is also discussed in articles on the Internet such as these two.

Of course, this still doesn't answer the question of "what does it mean for an antenna to be tuned for a specific frequency" - is it the coaxial connection that is tuned to receive a specific frequency, or the physical wire?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

It's too bad that Apple didn't use a standard for that one. PowerMacs have PCI slots though, right? So a PCI wireless card with the proper chipset should work.

Just out of curiosity, how does one tune an antenna? e.g. is it tuned at the point where the antenna attaches to the card, so the connector on the card is doing the tuning, or is there some way to "tune" the physical antenna? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If that was the case, then it shouldn't be possible to put a B/G MiniPCI card in Dell laptop that was made before 802.11g existed...but it is. I can see how multiple coaxial connections on a card will each receive and transmit different frequencies, but I don't see how the little wires that are embedded behind the LCD and reach down to the card are different from each other.

I suppose I'm likening it to HDTV vs SDTV broadcasts. The same $10 antenna will receive both signals - it's up the TV to decide if it can receive the HDTV signal, and if it can, it displays the signal on the screen. If the TV's tuner can't read HDTV, then it ignores the singal. I don't understand how this is any different.

The Mac Pros have PCIe slots, but for wireless I'd just use a USB adapter. The cards are more expensive, and it ties up a slot that could be used for something more demanding in the future.

Antenna tuning a combination of geometry and size (among other things) to provide efficient signal reception and broadcast. It may be helpful for you to read the Wikipedia article on antennas.
Both of your examples (802.11g using an 802.11b antenna, and OTA HDTV using an SD antenna) are situations where the new technology is using the same frequency bands as the old technology. You could probably even use an 802.11b/g antenna with a BlueTooth device, since BlueTooth is in the same 2.4Ghz band. But 802.11b/g and 802.11n use different frequency bands (2.4Ghz vs 5.8Ghz), so they need different antennas to be efficient or even effective.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Really? This is news to me; my Core Duo MacBook Pro has 802.11a capability?

Yes, but it doesn't work in OSX; only in Windows and I think Linux.

[tinkered]

802.11n can function in both the 2.4GHz and 5GHz range. Most 802.11 routers work in both frequencies unless set to do otherwise, like in my house, where I have the N network only at the 5GHz so that no b/g cards can join it and slow it down.

Also, I am no expert on wireless, but couldn't the extra antenna be related to the MIMO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipl...ultiple-output) functionality of 802.11n and with out it your throughput could be reduced?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Antenna tuning a combination of geometry and size (among other things) to provide efficient signal reception and broadcast. It may be helpful for you to read the Wikipedia article on antennas.
Both of your examples (802.11g using an 802.11b antenna, and OTA HDTV using an SD antenna) are situations where the new technology is using the same frequency bands as the old technology. You could probably even use an 802.11b/g antenna with a BlueTooth device, since BlueTooth is in the same 2.4Ghz band. But 802.11b/g and 802.11n use different frequency bands (2.4Ghz vs 5.8Ghz), so they need different antennas to be efficient or even effective.

Funny you should mention that, because I was *just* reading that very Wikipedia article a few minutes ago.

So basically there are physical characteristics about the wires used that optimize them for different frequencies. There's a whole ton of physics crap in there, though...too complex for my tiny brain. However, maybe I'm just never going to figure this out (a bit like calculus).

However, since there is indeed hidden 802.11a in the original CD Macs, then you should conceivably be able to connect the antennas there to an 802.11a/n network, correct?

And since 802.11n does work on the 2.5GHz band, then it should be possible to connect a draft-n card to a laptop previously equipped with b/g, as long as you're connecting the antenna to the coaxial connections on the card designed for 2.5GHz transmission, right? How did those guys on xlr8yourmac get their draft-N cards to work on their CD laptops?