[MindFad]

I'm a little baffled by this. You're telling me that, even if I own the content—music, sounds, etc.—if I want to hear a specified thirty seconds of it as a ringtone on my iPhone (which plays this content already), I have to pay another $.99? I can't be the only one who finds this incredibly lame, right? Is this Apple being greedy, or is this AT&T greediness through some corporate contractual business nonsense, or could this be the greedy music industry? If it's Big Music™, are they protecting their precious content from something? Are their ringtone demons of thievery I'm unaware of? Why is there "participating content"? If I own said song, why isn't there a free mechanism or something simple like specifying what thirty seconds I want to hear as a freakin' ringtone? I can only see this as utter greed from somewhere, or else I just don't quite get it. I wanted to be schooled, yo.

Discuss, bitch, and debate!

Edit: Don't see a lot of hubbub about the new iPods or iTunes yet in the Lounge, but see here for further details on the new iPhone rintone "feature."

[- - e r i k - -]

A ringtone is classified as a public performance of a copyrighted work.

[abe]

Originally Posted by MindFad 

I'm a little baffled by this. You're telling me that, even if I own the content—music, sounds, etc.—if I want to hear a specified thirty seconds of it as a ringtone on my iPhone (which plays this content already), I have to pay another $.99? I can't be the only one who finds this incredibly lame, right? Is this Apple being greedy, or is this AT&T greediness through some corporate contractual business nonsense, or could this be the greedy music industry? If it's Big Music™, are they protecting their precious content from something? Are their ringtone demons I'm unaware of? This can only be utter greed from somewhere, or else I just don't quite get it. I wanted to be schooled, yo.

Discuss, bitch, and debate!

In a society where water, plain old tap water, is sold for a buck, you can get an idea of how marketers think.

Anytime a product or service is provided in a different size, method or format it not only presents the manufacturer/producer/distributor an opportunity for a different income stream but sometimes a greater per unit revenue stream.

And although there may be added costs associated with providing the goods or service in a different way, sometimes even if the costs are minimal the demand for the the old product in the new format can be enough to justify a greater fee.

We all love Apple and Steve Jobs and want them to do well, so what's the problem?

j/k

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

A ringtone is classified as a public performance of a copyrighted work.

So it's a simple legal loophole for greed, or is their legalese that requires this to be done by Apple? Still feels like greed, no matter how this becomes cut. And speaking of cut, this is like buying a cherry pie and being legally allowed to enjoy it only whole—or otherwise, pay the baker to cut it into nice pieces for me with his special pie-cuttin' slice-o-magic slicer. Mmmm. Cherry pie content. If only music content were this easily digested and managed by consumers.

[nonhuman]

Bah. I make my own ringtones for my e815. All it takes is chopping 30 seconds out of any song with QuickTime, then importing it into iTunes as an MP3 with the appropriate settings. Email it to my phone as an MMS message and voila!

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Bah. I make my own ringtones for my e815. All it takes is chopping 30 seconds out of any song with QuickTime, then importing it into iTunes as an MP3 with the appropriate settings. Email it to my phone as an MMS message and voila!

This is what I do on my Ericsson. Why must consumers pay for such a simple means of playing a sound file? Greed makes baby Jesus and I sad.

I still want an iPod touch.

Edit: MindFad thread over four posts long. We've got legendary here, folks.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MindFad 

I'm a little baffled by this. You're telling me that, even if I own the content—music, sounds, etc.

None of the material eligible for turning into ringtones is material you own.

I'd really love to turn content I actually DO OWN into ringtones - as in, Apple supplies me with GarageBand to create my own music, but I'm required to PAY for licensed material, even though I'm perfectly enabled to create my own?

Hmf, Apple.

[starman]

Ambrosia Software, Inc. -- utilities/itoner

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by analogika 

None of the material eligible for turning into ringtones is material you own.

So, even if I had one of the eligible songs, and had already purchased it from iTunes, I do not own it? I'm no lawyer, but I want understand, however you want to say it, is the content—any content—purchased from iTunes not owned by me? Or is this a "$.99 rental" kind of thing. I thought it functioned the same way as if I purchased a CD—don't I own that CD, and can essentially do with what it as I please for my own personal use? Or am I way off? This "digital ownership" is fuzzy for me, but I'm rather interested in it.

But all that aside, even if I am "renting" this $.99 song, it feels awfully greedy that from some corporate this is the only mechanism in place for custom ringtones on iPhone—that I should essentially have to buy something twice to use it as a ringtone, content "eligible" or not, "owned" or not.

I'm really just curious as to the who and why really, despite my calling out Evil Greed™.

I'd really love to turn content I actually DO OWN into ringtones - as in, Apple supplies me with GarageBand to create my own music, but I'm required to PAY for licensed material, even though I'm perfectly enabled to create my own?

Hmf, Apple.

Me too! From "ineligible" content, which brings us back to me maybe not understanding the legality of it all. It only makes sense that there would be a way for me to perform this function with content I "own" (created myself or otherwise)—yet, there's not. Seems like Apple missed out on adding something so simple that people would love, or that there's something else at work which I'm missing.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MindFad 

So, even if I had one of the eligible songs, and had already purchased it from iTunes, I do not own it? I'm no lawyer, but I want understand, however you want to say it, is the content—any content—purchased from iTunes not owned by me?

No.

Only two entities "own" the content -

one, the guys who WROTE it (they own the song's copyright and can decide what happens with the song - who gets to put out their own recording of it and who gets to sample it), and

two, the guys who own the copyright to that particular RECORDING of the song.

You never OWN the content - you OWN a LICENSE to play that content in a private setting.

Yes, that restriction to private use is there, and it's been ever since people started selling recorded media. Every single CD or vinyl album or original cassette or 8-track you ever bought has somewhere on it a notice about unauthorized broadcasting and whathaveyou. That is not covered by the license under which the media are sold to you, and must in fact be paid for by whoever is doing the public presentation - the radio station, the club, the bar that's playing it on their in-house stereo, whatever.

In Germany, it's the GEMA that collects those licensing fees from the radio stations, clubs and bars (and, in fact, record companies), in the Netherlands, it's BIEM/STEMRA, in the U.S., it's ASCAP.

Originally Posted by MindFad 

Me too! From "ineligible" content, which brings us back to me maybe not understanding the legality of it all. It only makes sense that there would be a way for me to perform this function with content I "own" (created myself or otherwise)—yet, there's not. Seems like Apple missed out on adding something so simple that people would love, or that there's something else at work which I'm missing.

Actually, I can figure out one really compelling reason why Apple wouldn't allow this: It's trivially simple to just drag a ripped mp3 file into GarageBand, edit it into a 30-second snippet there, and import that into iTunes just as you would any self-built GarageBand track.

There is absolutely no way for Apple to ensure that you actually own the license to use material assembled in GarageBand as a ringtone.

For stuff bought via the iTunes store, this is easy.

Nobody would care, except that Apple is the world's leading legal online distributor of music, by a wide margin, and needs to be damned careful about licensing.

[abe]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Bah. I make my own ringtones for my e815. All it takes is chopping 30 seconds out of any song with QuickTime, then importing it into iTunes as an MP3 with the appropriate settings. Email it to my phone as an MMS message and voila!

Very nicely done!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Bah. I make my own ringtones for my e815. All it takes is chopping 30 seconds out of any song with QuickTime, then importing it into iTunes as an MP3 with the appropriate settings. Email it to my phone as an MMS message and voila!

Does your e815 not have bluetooth?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Does your e815 not have bluetooth?

It does, but I'm with Verizon and they cripple their phones. Specifically they try and prevent you from getting any media onto the phone other than buy purchasing it from them. The email to MMS method that I use is a workaround that I'm sure they'd get rid of if they could.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

It does, but I'm with Verizon and they cripple their phones. Specifically they try and prevent you from getting any media onto the phone other than buy purchasing it from them. The email to MMS method that I use is a workaround that I'm sure they'd get rid of if they could.

Wow. That really sucks. I feel for you Americans and your borked cellular system

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Wow. That really sucks. I feel for you Americans and your borked cellular system

Yeah, it sucks.

But at least we have the iPhone.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by starman 

Ambrosia Software, Inc. -- utilities/itoner

I'd never give those right-wing kool-aid drinking zealots so much as a cent of my money.

Besides, I can make my own ringtones without their help.

V

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I'd never give those right-wing kool-aid drinking zealots so much as a cent of my money.

What the ****?

[zerostar]

Ok fill me in, I was thinking of using this but not if they are kool-aid drinkers!

p.s. I had AppTap and SSH installed so I could SFTP over my ringtones in a snap! but I have a spare apple loaner phone now so I wasn't going to hack it until my phone comes back from the shop I thought this app would be a solution for now.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I'd never give those right-wing kool-aid drinking zealots so much as a cent of my money.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Yeah, it sucks.

But at least we have the iPhone.

Touché

[irunat2am]

Originally Posted by abe 

In a society where water, plain old tap water, is sold for a buck..

This pisses me off. Happens to me all the time.

[Dakarʒ]

Legal problem, loophole, or just sheer greed, it takes a set of Brass Balls to go up on stage and celebrate this thing as a it being something that lets Apple Users "control" things. And I'm so stuffed from Stev'es pushing of the wireless iTS I want to puke. Apple put out a lot of great products today, but they also bent over most of the iPhone users.

[Chuckit]

Well, what's he supposed to do? Go out there and apologize for their new service?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by zerostar 

Ok fill me in, I was thinking of using this but not if they are kool-aid drinkers!

Ah yes. The president of that company is more delirious than Dick Cheney and Tom DeLay combined. I don't give my money to their ilk.

V

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No.

Only two entities "own" the content - one, the guys who WROTE it (they own the song's copyright and can decide what happens with the song - who gets to put out their own recording of it and who gets to sample it), and two, the guys who own the copyright to that particular RECORDING of the song.

You never OWN the content - you OWN a LICENSE to play that content in a private setting.

Yes, that restriction to private use is there, and it's been ever since people started selling recorded media. Every single CD or vinyl album or original cassette or 8-track you ever bought has somewhere on it a notice about unauthorized broadcasting and whathaveyou. That is not covered by the license under which the media are sold to you, and must in fact be paid for by whoever is doing the public presentation - the radio station, the club, the bar that's playing it on their in-house stereo, whatever.

In Germany, it's the GEMA that collects those licensing fees from the radio stations, clubs and bars (and, in fact, record companies), in the Netherlands, it's BIEM/STEMRA, in the U.S., it's ASCAP.

Well, this makes much more sense, but I still can't see how this would affect any parties involved (consumers or Apple et al) in such a way that it calls for charging customers again for the same content. Erik's comment makes sense if that's what a ringtone is considered legally—I guess, even if it is the same thing. Kind of like making the a slice from my cherry pie analogy a pie itself. A pie is a pie and a slice is a slice, but a pie as well?

So in conclusion, a Shitty Deal™. This does help restrict licensing, that's for sure, and is a logical sound way for them to ensure that songs aren't "stolen" material, but the stink of "the consumer is a thief by default" doesn't sit well with me.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Well, what's he supposed to do? Go out there and apologize for their new service?

My only real complaint is that he said this gives users 'control'

the rest I can live with.

[abe]

Originally Posted by irunat2am 

This pisses me off. Happens to me all the time.

Although when I used to find myself miles from home on a hot summer evening run and stopped in a corner store and faced with the option of soda, milk or Sunny Delight, I would have paid $2.00 for water. Can't tell you how many garden hoses I sucked. In fact, I still kinda like that taste of rubberized plastic and grass.

[SSharon]

How does itunes keep track of which songs can be used as ringtones? Can I buy just one song from them to use as a ringtone and then rename one of my files to that song? I thought that if itunes can't find the file it lets you point it to a new one. I only need one ringtone at a time until I get tired of it and I can spare 99 cents.

[OwlBoy]

Millions of dollars worth of ring tones get sold each year for more than $99 cents. And they are not custom.

This is cheap in comparison.

So if you don't want to do though the trouble of making it your self, and want to give the artist a bit of money (no matter how little their cut really is…) this is really cool.

-Owl

[MindFad]

But you've already given the artist their "cut" by buying/licensing/purchasing this song in the first place. But you have to buy a portion of it again just to use it as a ringtone. There isn't technological feat or service being accomplished here—it's a damn sound clip. So, again, who are the greedy ones here? Restricting ringtone content to "participating material" I can understand from a standpoint of licensing, but why must consumers buy these songs, essentially, twice? Is it Apple, Big Music, or AT&T?

One reason I can think of why Apple might be doing this is the deployment of this protected ringtone file. Presumably you select the portion you want and download this DRM'd "clip" from Apple (making it a bit more than "a damn sound clip." Any other way of doing this would probably mean the iTunes client itself having to "create" DRM'd ringtone files on a user's machine, and having no actual tie to iTMS. Maybe there are fears of cracking client-created ringtones? Or scripts turning multiple 30-second clips of licensed content into MP3s, yadda yadda. Who knows! Maybe it's easier for Apple to do it this way, or maybe Big Music feels safer with it being done this way.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MindFad 

But you've already given the artist their "cut" by buying/licensing/purchasing this song in the first place. But you have to buy a portion of it again just to use it as a ringtone.

You're missing the point: Ever since the advent of "virtual" (i.e. non-physical) music distribution, ringtones have been separately licensed.

Apple's distribution contracts don't include ringtones, and every song to be distributed as a ringtone MUST be separately licensed. Which is why only 500,000 songs are eligible for ringtone use.

Record companies (and artists, for that matter) are pretty careful about ringtone licensing these days, as it's a billion-dollar industry.

An acquaintance of mine had a couple of fairly major chart-hits in the 80's, but had neglected to include a ring-tone clause in his contract renewal in the late 90s.

That oversight cost him tens of thousands of dollars.

Originally Posted by MindFad 

So in conclusion, a Shitty Deal™. This does help restrict licensing, that's for sure, and is a logical sound way for them to ensure that songs aren't "stolen" material, but the stink of "the consumer is a thief by default" doesn't sit well with me.

Well, either you own the license to do what you're doing, or you don't.

With iTunes, the situation is absolutely clear.

[Graviton]

You inexplicably wish to own a musical ring tone and a corporation is exploiting your lameness for greed and profit. That's the joy of being a consumer.

I have a suggestion. Don't buy a musical ring tone. How about that for a solution? It's hardly essential to your survival or the stability of your mental equilibrium.

[Doofy]

analogika has given a good overview of the legal situation, so no need for me to say owt about that.

But I will say: All I want is a ring tone that sounds like a phone. No music, no mp3s... ...just a ring. Can't get anything anywhere near that on my phone.

[OreoCookie]

I used to own a SonyE phone with bluetooth, it would accept any mp3 as ringtone. I trimmed down a few songs to the appropriate length and converted them into mono.

It's funny to see all the kids who are leeching music online, but are willing to pay up to $3 for a ringtone

[zerostar]

Well the itunes 7.4 update basically made iToner useless anyway. I snced my iPhone and it wiped all my ringtones I had added via SFTP. I tried iToner and they added fine, but the too got removed on a sync. VERY shady move Apple!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by zerostar 

Well the itunes 7.4 update basically made iToner useless anyway. I snced my iPhone and it wiped all my ringtones I had added via SFTP. I tried iToner and they added fine, but the too got removed on a sync. VERY shady move Apple!

How is that a shady move on Apple's part? I am sure there will be a iToner update. Sometimes things break on upgrades.

For example, I am sure 10.5 will remove any themes you have installed on your computer via replacement.

[zerostar]

Because they are purposefully clearing out any non-paid-for ring-tones on the iPhone, no method that I have tried will put ring-tones in and keep them thru a sync. I have tried 4 ways to add ringtones, they all work (i.e. add the tone and I can use it) but when it syncs back to iTunes 7.4 it clears them all out. I have luckily had 7.3.2 on backup so I will revert back for now.

Any other phone I have ever owned can add ring-tones from ANY file in mp3, etc. ripped, stolen, brought whatever.

Maybe "shady move" is too strong, but it sure smells of a money grab to me.

[Kevin]

Maybe Apple sees iToner as being a shady application that modifies it's product in a way it wasn't intended to?

I mean you probably did agree to a term of service when you had it installed.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But I will say: All I want is a ring tone that sounds like a phone. No music, no mp3s... ...just a ring. Can't get anything anywhere near that on my phone.

There are songs with ringing phones that you could use (e.g., I have Admiral Twin's "Phone Call #27").

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by analogika 

You're missing the point: Ever since the advent of "virtual" (i.e. non-physical) music distribution, ringtones have been separately licensed.

Apple's distribution contracts don't include ringtones, and every song to be distributed as a ringtone MUST be separately licensed. Which is why only 500,000 songs are eligible for ringtone use.

Record companies (and artists, for that matter) are pretty careful about ringtone licensing these days, as it's a billion-dollar industry.

An acquaintance of mine had a couple of fairly major chart-hits in the 80's, but had neglected to include a ring-tone clause in his contract renewal in the late 90s.

That oversight cost him tens of thousands of dollars.

I understand, but I reluctantly wrap my head around the idea and how slimy that is, no matter the legal definition of a ringtone. So I guess it's just convenient for everyone involved to make a little more dough. Feels like a lame legal freebie that is just taken advantage of.

Originally Posted by Graviton 

You inexplicably wish to own a musical ring tone and a corporation is exploiting your lameness for greed and profit. That's the joy of being a consumer.

I don't actually—I don't own an iPhone. I was asking these questions so I can understand the legality of the situation that Apple's in and why exactly it's set up the way it is. I understand it now, but that doesn't make it any less shitty!

I have a suggestion. Don't buy a musical ring tone. How about that for a solution? It's hardly essential to your survival or the stability of your mental equilibrium.

WTF

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But I will say: All I want is a ring tone that sounds like a phone. No music, no mp3s... ...just a ring. Can't get anything anywhere near that on my phone.

What kind of phone do you have? There should be plenty midi and mp3 files out there for all kinds of phones!

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I used to own a SonyE phone with bluetooth, it would accept any mp3 as ringtone. I trimmed down a few songs to the appropriate length and converted them into mono.

It's funny to see all the kids who are leeching music online, but are willing to pay up to $3 for a ringtone

You should give yourself an infraction for discussing illegal stuff on MacNN!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by badidea 

What kind of phone do you have? There should be plenty midi and mp3 files out there for all kinds of phones!

It's a crappy Sony Ericsson K310i.

MIDI and MP3s don't work for me, since I have to be able to hear the ring over music. It has to be a *loud* normal ring. The phone doesn't even come with any built-in normal rings.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's a crappy Sony Ericsson K310i.

MIDI and MP3s don't work for me, since I have to be able to hear the ring over music. It has to be a *loud* normal ring. The phone doesn't even come with any built-in normal rings.

Ok, so the problem is not the lack of ringtones for your phone? All tones are too silent?
I have a K810i (?) but only have this problem with a few very silent MP3s and MIDI files...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by badidea 

Ok, so the problem is not the lack of ringtones for your phone? All tones are too silent?
I have a K810i (?) but only have this problem with a few very silent MP3s and MIDI files...

No, the problem is that I want a normal ring tone - *not* something MP3 or MIDI based. Invariably, the perceived volume of an old-style tone is much, much higher the new mp3 and MIDI styles - even if those new styles are just attempting a ring.

You probably don't have the same problem because you're probably not trying to hear it above a kilowatt of studio monitoring.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You probably don't have the same problem because you're probably not trying to hear it above a kilowatt of studio monitoring.

True...but I also have my phone 99% of the time on vibrating only because I really hate it when I have to listen to all those "supercool" ringtones from everyone around me (even though I use a "supercool" rintone myself)!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by badidea 

You should give yourself an infraction for discussing illegal stuff on MacNN!

I was just saying that other people were doing something illegal, not me … 

My current phone only accepts midi files or expensive downloads -- and all of the built-in ringtones are crappy :/

[badidea]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I was just saying that other people were doing something illegal, not me … 

Well, I was once just saying that it is possible to copy DVDs (but not how) and that already earned me an infraction...
Now don't be a coward and step ahead as the first Mod that gives himself one!!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by badidea 

Well, I was once just saying that it is possible to copy DVDs (but not how) and that already earned me an infraction...

I wouldn't have.

Originally Posted by badidea 

Now don't be a coward and step ahead as the first Mod that gives himself one!!

I literally can't
(The Infraction link is disabled for all mods and admins.)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, the problem is that I want a normal ring tone - *not* something MP3 or MIDI based. Invariably, the perceived volume of an old-style tone is much, much higher the new mp3 and MIDI styles - even if those new styles are just attempting a ring.

You probably don't have the same problem because you're probably not trying to hear it above a kilowatt of studio monitoring.

Yeah those old cool sounding ringtones.. I miss those. Sounded like you were in a Dr Who episode.