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F**k chiropractors. F**k them all. (Page 2)
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 18, 2012, 06:59 PM
 
Sorry if I've confused anyone. I was responding to Shaddim calling me a troll but I am not saying that everyone who gets acupuncture is a hypochondriac. Had I known about your back injury I wouldn't have mentioned the word, it was only because I was treated like one recently that I brought it up.

And I'm not trying to discount acupuncture either. Placebos have their place. Basically, everything Oreocookie said. Thanks O.
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FireWire
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Nov 18, 2012, 09:41 PM
 
I don't know how it is where you live, but in Québec, chiropractors are official health specialist, have to earn a real 5 years degree and can legally be called "doctors". And they do take x-rays. They are not considered "alternative medecine" and do not promote herbs or other dubious techniques. They have helped me a lot with my back and shoulder problems and I can clearly see a difference.
     
subego
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Nov 19, 2012, 12:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Sorry if I've confused anyone. I was responding to Shaddim calling me a troll but I am not saying that everyone who gets acupuncture is a hypochondriac. Had I known about your back injury I wouldn't have mentioned the word, it was only because I was treated like one recently that I brought it up.
And I'm not trying to discount acupuncture either. Placebos have their place. Basically, everything Oreocookie said. Thanks O.
I don't want this to seem like I'm having a snit or something, but you said hypochondriac before Shaddim called you a troll.

To be clear, I'm not offended or anything, but I feel like I'm reading a different forum than everyone else.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Why don't you disagree with others in a more civil fashion, without accusing them of trolling? It feels as if Waragainstsleep has touched a nerve by discounting your wife's profession. And do you really think a link to some Q&A website is a substitute for links to actual research if you want to argue your point of view?
Come on, let's keep it civil.
I was being civil, and that's a mighty big assumption. Nothing against acupuncture has ever been proven, especially with regards to muscular back pain, anyone who claims that is only trying to get a reaction. I'm a 15 year acupuncture patient, torn muscle in my lower back (SPI), and I receive that treatment to avoid narcotic pain relievers. I know it works, because I've not had to take a Hydro or Roxy since I started. It's even practiced and endorsed by Johns Hopkins. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/cam/Clinical_Services/Acupuncture

Yup.
Nope.

That's a weird way to read Waragainstsleep's response to Shaddim's post: the placebo effect is real, it's been tested scientifically that placebos can actually replace a sizable dose of actual pain killers so long the patients believe they're taking actual pain killers, for instance.
So, if that's the case, several people in here are trying to convince us to have doubts about our treatment, thereby possibly causing it to become ineffective and making us dependent on narcotics? That's not nice.
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Shaddim
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't want this to seem like I'm having a snit or something, but you said hypochondriac before Shaddim called you a troll.
To be clear, I'm not offended or anything, but I feel like I'm reading a different forum than everyone else.
and that's partly why I said he was trolling. The whole, "you're hypochondriacs buying into hoodoo treatments" and all that crap, without knowing any specifics at all.
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BLAZE_MkIV
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Nov 19, 2012, 06:16 AM
 
This morning in there was an add on the radio where a chiropractor claimed to be able to cure among other things, ADD.
     
P
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Nov 19, 2012, 08:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The mechanism behind the placebo effect also makes real medicine more or less effective, i. e. a patient's perception of a medicine alters its effectiveness. Which means acupuncture can be more efficient than »doing nothing«. But the cause for the subjective relief is the placebo effect.
I'm going to have politely disagree here. While the theory behind acupuncture has no basis in facts - think "energy fields" like body Feng Shui - and all the intricate positioning of the needles that follows from it is unnecessary, the basic idea of sticking needles into soft tissue has some effect beyond placebo. It produces a burst of endorphins, and the theory is that this can help healing. Connecting a weak electrical current to the needles can also help. The Wikipedia article on the subject has some links to relevant studies. In a way it is a disservice to still refer to this as acupuncture, as the modern usage of it has only a passing similarity to the old "eastern magic", but it is the accepted term.
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Uncle Skeleton
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Nov 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
It produces a burst of endorphins, and the theory is that this can help healing.
Isn't that exactly what placebos do too?
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 19, 2012, 12:09 PM
 
Was going to pose the same question myself.

A lot of people seem to get offended when the "placebo effect" is mentioned. I mean, the placebo effect works; it's a measurable effect. If it works for you, then give 'er....
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subego
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Nov 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I'm going to have politely disagree here. While the theory behind acupuncture has no basis in facts - think "energy fields" like body Feng Shui - and all the intricate positioning of the needles that follows from it is unnecessary, the basic idea of sticking needles into soft tissue has some effect beyond placebo. It produces a burst of endorphins, and the theory is that this can help healing. Connecting a weak electrical current to the needles can also help. The Wikipedia article on the subject has some links to relevant studies. In a way it is a disservice to still refer to this as acupuncture, as the modern usage of it has only a passing similarity to the old "eastern magic", but it is the accepted term.
I've always had the impression "old-fashioned" Asian science has drummed up many interesting practical applications, but can't do theorization for shit.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 19, 2012, 12:19 PM
 
For the record, I didn't intend to imply that anyone here was a hypochondriac, I was implying you might have seen a doctor who thought you were.

The grammar sounds awful in that sentence.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Nov 19, 2012, 12:54 PM
 
Honestly, it's cool either way.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 19, 2012, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I'm going to have politely disagree here. While the theory behind acupuncture has no basis in facts - think "energy fields" like body Feng Shui - and all the intricate positioning of the needles that follows from it is unnecessary, the basic idea of sticking needles into soft tissue has some effect beyond placebo.
I've read one study where they have compared »correctly applied« acupuncture (including all those chakras, energy fields and what not) to »incorrectly applied« acupuncture (the placebo), and the effect was statistically the same.

So yes, I think it's plausible that the endorphins released by sticking small needles into your skin can lift your mood. By the same token, if you lie on your back relaxed during acupuncture sessions also has a positive effect. But then a massage would perhaps even be more effective than an acupuncture session? And nobody would claim a massage cures allergies (when I was a child, a doctor I was in treatment at proposed acupuncture to treat my eczema).

But I think I know where you're getting at, although I don't think that what you're describing is widely perceived to be the same thing as acupuncture.
Originally Posted by P View Post
In a way it is a disservice to still refer to this as acupuncture, as the modern usage of it has only a passing similarity to the old "eastern magic", but it is the accepted term.
Perhaps it's my perceptive bias, but I have not seen any acupuncturists who does not apply it according to the principles of Eastern magic as you so nicely put it (I think I'm gonna steal that expression ).

I think what people (especially those who believe in Eastern magic) underestimate is the power of suggestion and autosuggestion. A friend of mine hypnotizes people as a hobby. He's a fellow scientist and I was very curious how it worked, so he explained it to me and then hypnotized me. Hypnosis works, but if you know how it works, then it's clear to you it's not magic or anything. There are clear patterns and even, or rather, especially if you know these patters, hypnosis tends to work better. It was surprising, for instance, how strong the physical manifestations to the suggestions can be. And fun.
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andi*pandi
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Nov 19, 2012, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I've read one study where they have compared »correctly applied« acupuncture (including all those chakras, energy fields and what not) to »incorrectly applied« acupuncture (the placebo), and the effect was statistically the same.
Was it this one?

Forty patients, randomly assigned to an experimental and a control group, participated in a double-blind study to assess the effectiveness of acupuncture in reducing chronic pain associated with osteoarthritis. The experimental group received treatment at standard acupuncture points, and the control group at placebo points. Analysis before and after treatment showed a significant (P < 0.05) improvement in tenderness and subjective report of pain in both groups as evaluated by two independent observers and in activity by one observer. Comparison of responses to treatment between the two groups showed no significant( > 0.05) difference.

Thus, both experimental and control groups showed a reduction in pain after the treatments. These results may reflect the natural course of illness, and various attitudinal and social factors. (N Engl J Med 293:375–378, 1975)
The same doctor, both medically and traditionally trained, did the procedures. Interesting.
     
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Nov 20, 2012, 02:24 AM
 
I think what we have here is confusion about the terms - basically, if someone uses acupuncture needles and sticks them in as they feel like, do you call that acupuncture? I would say yes, although I don't particularly like that usage, as it confers an air of legitimacy on the "magicians".

Anyway: sticking needles into people, whatever you want to call that, does reduce pain and inflammation at a rate that exceeds the typical placebo effect (giving someone sugar pills). A possible mechanism for this is that the flow of endorphins increases, but the exact details of this are not known. Simply reducing inflammation can be very effective relief in an auto-immune situation (such as arthritis), but I wouldn't call it a cure. Since chronic pain can be a serious problem, and some conditions are not curable, I can see this sort of treatment having a value, and so do some in the medical community. Just don't think that it cures cancer or anything.
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subego
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Nov 20, 2012, 02:57 AM
 
And this is exactly my situation. Incurable, chronic pain.
     
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Nov 21, 2012, 11:40 AM
 
There's no such thing as "alternative medicine." You know what we call "alternative medicine" that works? Medicine.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Nov 28, 2012, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
I don't know how it is where you live, but in Québec, chiropractors are official health specialist, have to earn a real 5 years degree and can legally be called "doctors".
Christ, I can't stay away. First of all, it isn't a medical degree. Secondly, it's not even an academic degree recognized by the U.S. or Canada. It's a title attributed to graduating chiropractors by a non-accredited college. They don't even meet the basic requirements to be considered a medical student. Nowhere in those 5 years does it require the study of core scientific courses that are the basis of any medical degree. In fact, you only need 1 year at a real college where you're encouraged to take basic anatomy and biology classes, then you finish up at the Chiropractic college. You finish your 5 years with a "Doctorate in Chiropractic" without ever taking a single advanced biology, anatomy, or related medical course. In many provinces and states, you can become a "doctor of chiropractic" in as little as 2200 hours.

Ironically, while they love to quote Grey's Anatomy on their website, it's actually never referenced in the course of their studies.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
And they do take x-rays.
I think the more important question you should be asking is, why the hell am I letting this f*cktard blast me with cumulatively lethal amounts of radiation when he/she is not a radiologist? According to the British Journal of Radiology, 63% of Chiropractors regularly refer or operate x-ray for their patient. An astonishing 4% make it routine. They do an x-ray every single visit to monitor "sublexation correction."

Exposure to ionized radiation is cumulative! The radiation doesn't go away, it only gets worse with every single dose. That is why x-rays should never be used to screen for problems. You're harping potentially the one thing that should make you run away from Chiropractic as fast as possible. They are literally killing you, and you think that's a feather in their cap?

Surprisingly, there is no agency in Canada or the United States that oversees the illegal use of x-ray machines. From what I understand, anyone can use one.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
They are not considered "alternative medecine" and do not promote herbs or other dubious techniques.
Yes they are, and yes they do. According to the Canadian Chiropractic Association, Chiropractic is a complete health care system providing (in addition to Chiropractic) herbal and homeopathic remedies. In addition to pretending to be general practitioners, they also like to pretend they're dietitians and obstetricians by giving "diet advice" to individuals through their liberal prescription of herbal and vitamin supplements. They also claim they're able to treat asthma, respiratory infections, diabetes, dementia, and cancer. I don't care how many years they have to take of that bullsh*t, it's still bullsh*t.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
And this is exactly my situation. Incurable, chronic pain.
In the last 120 years, Chiropractic has never been demonstrated to have any measurable effect on chronic back pain. Why would someone think this would somehow magically changed? I mean, other than that core tenant of Chiropractic is that the body itself is a living organism powered by magical life-giving energy that may be obstructed by subluxations.

Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
There's no such thing as "alternative medicine." You know what we call "alternative medicine" that works? Medicine.
Yes, but how we determine what does and does not work is what makes the difference between what real doctors call "medicine," and what quacks call "medicine." Real medicine goes through years of rigorous testing, retesting, peer review, more testing, animal clinical trials, then human clinical trials.
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OreoCookie
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Nov 28, 2012, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
And this is exactly my situation. Incurable, chronic pain.
The objections I raise, though, is complete lack of scientific foundation: Most of these »alternative« approaches predate modern medicine and have their origins in the 19th century or so. They have usually started as an attempt at systematically explaining diseases and using this understanding to derive treatment plans. However, these ideas and philosophies have been thoroughly debunked scientifically.

So while P may be right that sticking needles into your skin may alleviate your pain (which is good for the patient), the study he mentions also shows that the tenets of acupuncture are incorrect, because there is no difference between sticking in the needles in the »correct« place and someplace else. So if P's assertion is correct, then bringing in all this mumbo-jumbo into acupuncture hinders its development as a healing method according to scientific principles. It's similar to hypnosis: there is a perfectly reasonable and scientific explanation for why it works, and you're much more effective at hypnotizing people if you actually understand that. It gets dangerous when a hypnotist claims his ability is due to some mysterious »power« or special relationship to the universe.
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FireWire
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Nov 28, 2012, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Christ, I can't stay away. First of all, it isn't a medical degree. Secondly, it's not even an academic degree recognized by the U.S. or Canada. It's a title attributed to graduating chiropractors by a non-accredited college. They don't even meet the basic requirements to be considered a medical student. Nowhere in those 5 years does it require the study of core scientific courses that are the basis of any medical degree. In fact, you only need 1 year at a real college where you're encouraged to take basic anatomy and biology classes, then you finish up at the Chiropractic college. You finish your 5 years with a "Doctorate in Chiropractic" without ever taking a single advanced biology, anatomy, or related medical course. In many provinces and states, you can become a "doctor of chiropractic" in as little as 2200 hours.
I beg to differ. Strongly. In Québec, the degree is awarded by the Université du Québec, a governement-run network of colleges.

The University of Quebec (Fr: Université du Québec) is a system of ten provincially-run public universities in Quebec, Canada. Its headquarters are in Quebec City. The university coordinates university programs for more than 87,000 students. It offers more than 300 programs. The government of Quebec founded the Université du Québec, a network of universities in several Quebec cities.
As they are giving the course, I sure hope it is recognized by the governement... And yes they are fully accredited. According to the college's website, the program has been authorized by the Ministry of higher education and sciences of Québec in 1992.

Furthermore, according to the Chiropractor's Association of Québec's website :


Au Québec ou en Ontario, les disciplines étudiées touchent à l’anatomie, à la biochimie, à la physiologie, à la neurologie, à l’embryologie, aux principes de la chiropratique, à la radiologie, à l’immunologie, à la microbiologie, à la pathologie, à la nutrition et aux sciences cliniques liées en particulier au diagnostic.

In Québec and Ontario, studies covers anatomy, biochemistry, physiology, neurology, embryology, chiropractice principles, radiology, immunology, microbiology, pathology, nutrition and clinical sciences pertaining to posing a diagnostic.

[quote name=olePigeon]I think the more important question you should be asking is, why the hell am I letting this f*cktard blast me with cumulatively lethal amounts of radiation when he/she is not a radiologist? According to the British Journal of Radiology, 63% of Chiropractors regularly refer or operate x-ray for their patient. An astonishing 4% make it routine. They do an x-ray every single visit to monitor "sublexation correction."[/quote]

From the same souce:

La formation en radiologie est particulièrement poussée chez les étudiants en chiropratique. Elle comporte 360 heures de cours ainsi qu’un internat clinique, et touche à la biophysique, à la protection des radiations, à l’interprétation clinique des radiographies et au diagnostic.

Training in radiology is particularly advanced in students in chiropractice. It includes 360 hours of courses and a clinical internship and covers biophysics, protection against radiation, clinical interpretation of x-rays and diagnostic.
If you want to take a look at the program's curriculum: https://oraprdnt.uqtr.uquebec.ca/pls/public/pgmw001?owa_cd_pgm=7025

Finally, before being able to practice, chiropractors must pass the tests and become a member of the Order of chiropractor, a professionnal order mandated by the Governement. The same type of order that oversees engineers, architects, lawyers, chemists, doctors, and pharmacists...

Au Québec, on compte 44 ordres professionnels qui réglementent la profession de quelque 357 000 membres. Ces ordres sont constitués conformément au Code des professions. Ils doivent répondre aux exigences de cette loi-cadre.

In Québec, there are 44 professional orders who regulate the occupation of over 357 000 members. Those orders are constituted in accordance to the Code des professions. They must obey the requirements of this law.

olePigeon"]Yes they are, and yes they do. According to the Canadian Chiropractic Association, Chiropractic is a complete health care system providing (in addition to Chiropractic) herbal and homeopathic remedies. In addition to pretending to be general practitioners, they also like to pretend they're dietitians and obstetricians by giving "diet advice" to individuals through their liberal prescription of herbal and vitamin supplements[/quote]

Canada ≠ Québec. Nowhere on the Order's or Association's website they are talking about homeopathy or herbal supplement. They are doing adjustment, that's it.

I rest my case.
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2012, 03:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
In the last 120 years, Chiropractic has never been demonstrated to have any measurable effect on chronic back pain. Why would someone think this would somehow magically changed? I mean, other than that core tenant of Chiropractic is that the body itself is a living organism powered by magical life-giving energy that may be obstructed by subluxations.
There are plenty of chiropractors who don't buy into the bullshit.

I was talking about acupuncture, not chiro FWIW.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Nov 29, 2012, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
I beg to differ. Strongly. In Québec, the degree is awarded by the Université du Québec, a governement-run network of colleges.
The degree program is accredited by the Canadian Federation of Chiropractic Regulatory and Educational Accrediting Boards, not the university. While it is located at Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières, it is currently a privately funded program. The CCA's goal is to turn it into a program funded by Canadian tax dolars. They are systematically and purposefully building ambiguity around the practice to get morons to vote and pay for it.

The association has been actively gaining regulatory seats in each province as they attempt to move Chiropractic from a privately funded industry into a public funded industry through the Canadian university system. While they claim to be evidence-based, they refute all attempts to (and results of) clinical trials of chiropractic. They are now attempting to get Chiropractors into the ER, people with absolutely no formal medical training what-so-ever.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
If you want to take a look at the program's curriculum: https://oraprdnt.uqtr.uquebec.ca/pls/public/pgmw001?owa_cd_pgm=7025
Basic courses, no advanced medical or clinical courses involved what-so-ever. Per your own website. A huge list of 100 level classes that wouldn't even qualify them as a medical student. I took more advanced biology classes at my 2 year community college than is required to become a "Doctor in Chiropractic." They are not qualified to give a diagnosis of any condition, spinal or otherwise. It doesn't matter that they've taken 10 different 100 level courses, that doesn't make them an expert at anything. I took AP 101 and 201 English classes in high school for god's sake, that doesn't make me a Doctor in English Literature.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Finally, before being able to practice, chiropractors must pass the tests and become a member of the Order of chiropractor, a professionnal order mandated by the Governement.
And I have to pass a test by the Order of Masons to become a Mason. In California you have to get licensed by the local Chiropractic board. It means jack and shit because our state has grandfathered in numerous quackery laws since the 1900s at behest of heavy lobbying from the homeopathic and chiropractic groups. Being licensed by an unregulated board of quacks means absolutely nothing to me.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
The same type of order that oversees engineers, architects, lawyers, chemists, doctors, and pharmacists...
That's should be flat out insulting to anyone holding a professional or doctoral degree.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Canada ≠ Québec.
Until you secede, yes it does.

Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
Nowhere on the Order's or Association's website they are talking about homeopathy or herbal supplement. They are doing adjustment, that's it.
If I had time to learn French, I'd peruse that website. In the meantime, here is the Canadian Chiropractic Association's website (the governing body responsible for appointing people to the Order and accrediting and administering Chiropractic courses at the university) affirming their support for and recommending the use of "hydrotherapy, homeopathy, naturopathic manipulation, and traditional Chinese medicine/acupuncture."
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Nov 29, 2012, 08:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There are plenty of chiropractors who don't buy into the bullshit.
By virtue of being a chiropractor they've bought into the bullshit.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I was talking about acupuncture, not chiro FWIW.
I missed that. Didn't improve your position, though.
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subego
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Nov 29, 2012, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I missed that. Didn't improve your position, though.
And my position is?
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Nov 30, 2012, 07:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
And my position is?
I'm jumping the gun, sorry about that. I'm in a blind rage as you can read in my above post.
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subego
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Nov 30, 2012, 08:01 AM
 
It's all good.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 30, 2012, 12:06 PM
 
All I've got to say is, there's nothing more annoying than that one chiropractor everyone knows who insists on calling themselves a "doctor".

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Shaddim
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Nov 30, 2012, 12:18 PM
 
My chiro is a doctor. He's an MD, an orthopedic.
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Mrjinglesusa
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Nov 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
 
Nice rant. Too bad the blame rests with your sister, not the chiropractor.

SHE is the one who went to a chiropractor instead of her GP.

SHE is the one who bought into and took everything the chiropractor gave her.

No one forced her into these decisions.

Chiropractors are not trained to diagnose an ectopic pregnancy and shouldn't/can't be expected to.

So if a person with an ectopic pregnancy goes to see a chiropractor FIRST, instead of her GP, and the chiropractor does not diagnose the ectopic pregnancy, that's HER fault, not the chiropractor's.

Glad your sister is OK, but your rant should be about your sister making stupid decisions, not her chiropractor failing to diagnose an ectopic pregnancy.
     
raleur
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Nov 30, 2012, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
Nice rant. Too bad the blame rests with your sister, not the chiropractor.
No one forced her into these decisions.
No, the blame rests with both.

You are right in that the sister willingly made those decisions, but they were almost certainly based upon her belief that the chiropractor would know the appropriate actions to take- a belief that the chiropractor no doubt actively encouraged.

His responsibility was to recognize that he wasn't curing her, and therefore to seek additional help with the problem. He didn't, and so jeopardized his patient's life.

So yes, she made a bad choice, but he also failed to perform in a responsible manner. Both are to blame.

However, if you insist on saying that one was more to blame than the other, then his fault is greater by virtue of the fact that his professional (not to mention moral) responsibility is to know his own limits.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Dec 4, 2012, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
Chiropractors are not trained to diagnose an ectopic pregnancy and shouldn't/can't be expected to.
Chiropractors are not trained to diagnose anything. That doesn't stop them from claiming they can treat everything from infertility to cancer.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
So if a person with an ectopic pregnancy goes to see a chiropractor FIRST, instead of her GP, and the chiropractor does not diagnose the ectopic pregnancy, that's HER fault, not the chiropractor's.
Chiropractors want all the glory of being a doctor, but none of the culpability if something goes wrong. They can claim to be able to treat something, but when they misdiagnose, people defend them by saying its not really their fault because they're not trained for it. So when does the "doctor" part come in, then? When it's convenient? When the bill is due? Apparently not when making a proper diagnosis. A proper diagnosis, by the way, includes telling a patient that you simply don't know and refer them to someone who does.

Yes, my sister shares some of the responsibility, she made the decision to go (even after I told her not to,) but it was the chiropractor that claimed she could treat my sister's ailment after her "diagnosis." It's the chiropractor that claims to be a doctor, then assured my sister that the problems were simply a misalignment in her spine.

Chiropractors are not taught not how to diagnose, but how to shoehorn symptoms into something that can be treated through chiropractic. Snake oil salesmen have never changed, only the product.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
 
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