[Mark Larr]

There's only one thing wrong with that picture.

Muslim "patients" usually aren't breathing when the Israelies do their job right.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Uh, no it's not. The article very clearly says it's a surgical patient's gown. Once again you're wrong, Colin. But I guess you follow that motto, if at first you don't succeed. . . except your strategy is more like, "if at first you don't succeed, change the subject."

And the patient is wearing the surgical gown because they also dress in reversed roles in muslim countries?

[Cody Dawg]

sayf-allah

Your husband must be so proud of you

Proud isn't the word. He is "amused" by my MacNN antics.

Other than that, yes, he does like me.



(Hi Kevin!)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What Christians tell people that they'd better cover up?

NONE.

Are there any public places in America where a woman can go topless?

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, actually there is - many places.

At least, where I live.

South Beach is just one of many here in Florida.

[Spliffdaddy]

Depends on local laws.

I've seen nude beaches in Europe. A bunch of topless 45 year old women with 4 kids.

Don't think we need to see that here in the USA.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, actually there is - many places.

At least, where I live.

South Beach is just one of many here in Florida.

And on the street?

[Cody Dawg]

Again it depends on where you are - and when. There are a lot of topless parades in this country, for sure. Mardi Gras is one of them where you'll see a lot of topless women. Also, Bike Week at Daytona Beach.

Why?

What does a woman going topless on the street have ANYTHING to do with:

A) The topic - which is wearing religious clothes in a hospital when ill
B) Religion in general

Actually, nevermind...

I don't want to even try to understand.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

But, to be sure, again it depends on where you are - and when. There are a lot of topless parades in this country, for sure. Mardi Gras is one of them where you'll see a lot of topless women. Also, Bike Week at Daytona Beach.

Why?

What does a woman going topless on the street have ANYTHING to do with:

A) The topic - which is wearing religious clothes in a hospital when ill
B) Religion in general

Actually, nevermind...

I don't want to even try to understand.

I submit that America's insecurity over public female toplessness is directly related to America's stron Christian backbone.

The outrage over Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction?

[deej5871]

Does it really matter what you wear in the hospital anyway? They're just going to take it off when they cut you open (yes, I realize hospital does not equal surgery).

---------------

From my browsing of Wikipedia, I haven't found anything about Catholic dress codes. Catholics account for 1.1 billion Christians, so I use them because I am one and I think it makes more sense to use them as the rule rather than the exceptions (like a few of the small Christian denominations mentioned earlier, like the Amish, which as I said, are the exception, not the rule). Looking at Islam however, Wikipedia's article on the Sharia states:

The Qur'an also places a dress code upon its followers. The rule for men has been ordained before the women."say to the believing men to lower their gaze and preserve their modesty, it will make for greater purity for them and Allah is well aware of all that they do." For women, it emphasizes modesty. Allah says in the Qur'an, "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their khumūr over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or their sons, . . ." (surat an-Nur verse 31).

It seems to me that trying to say that Christians enforce a dress code is about as bad as saying a local business enforces a dress code. Yes, you can say they have a dress code because you can't go in there in certain attire, but that's only because of social customs, not because the dress code is religious doctrine.

Not to mention the fact that people have been talking about two different things. Christians have a dress code inside the church because that only makes sense, however there is no real policy for outside of Church (personally I was always taught to go to Church looking nice, but only because that was to show respect to God, not because of a policy); Muslims have a dress code for day-to-day life, which is fine by me, but seems strange to enforce in a hospital environment.

:/ My 2 cents.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Depends on local laws.

I've seen nude beaches in Europe. A bunch of topless 45 year old women with 4 kids.

Don't think we need to see that here in the USA.

You ain't never been to an Eastern German beach.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by analogika

You ain't never been to an Eastern German beach.

Hey, I guess communism worked.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Then why did you call her a liar?

BTW calling someone "ignorant and stupid" is worse than not knowing some inane fact.

You have your priorities all messed up.

I was spoofing her tone, Kevin.

Please, we've all realized some years ago that you don't do satire. Just accept it and don't just gung-ho rah-rah join the fray every time you feel one of the people you perceive as being "on your side" getting a little roughed.

Actually, no. I have absolutely no problem with somebody not knowing something. But I believe that spouting completely ignorant bullsh¡t as FACT is one of the greatest follies of today, and simply isn't necessary. Either you research it, or you realize that it MIGHT make you look stupid, and probably WILL if you keep pounding it.

I would have thought the 16th-chapel debacle would have taught you that.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Again it depends on where you are - and when. There are a lot of topless parades in this country, for sure. Mardi Gras is one of them where you'll see a lot of topless women. Also, Bike Week at Daytona Beach.

Why?

What does a woman going topless on the street have ANYTHING to do with:

A) The topic - which is wearing religious clothes in a hospital when ill
B) Religion in general

Actually, nevermind...

I don't want to even try to understand.

It has to do with a little thing called FREEDOM. I thought that was important to american's...apparently not.

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah?

Well, we have more freedoms in this country than any other, unfortunately for you and your little friends.



The only other places where there are equal freedoms are Great Britain, Australian, or "Western" countries.

And, sorry to say, we have more freedoms in this country than we need, to be honest - as evidenced by the ACLU that attempts to enforce that everyone is happy.

Listen, I don't care what a Muslim female patient wears, to be honest. If it's going to make them more comfortable to be 100% covered up, then fine.

I just think it's sad that when women are feeling their worst and are in a hospital that they are still worrying about being 100% covered up. Seriously, it's not a very pleasant thing to think about.

A lot of the time you have IVs sticking out of your arm, or bandages, or even a foley (catheter) and you're a woman having to worry about whether or not you're covered up?

I just think that's terrible, that's all.

And since men are the ones trying to enforce (or reinforce) that Muslim women cover up, they don't bear the brunt of being uncomfortable.

With all of that said, the day is coming when Muslim women will refuse to be covered up in robes and bags...they'll throw it all off, they'll demand to be equal to men, and guess what? The jig will be up in all of those Muslim countries.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And since men are the ones trying to enforce (or reinforce) that Muslim women cover up, they don't bear the brunt of being uncomfortable.

Really? Got any facts to back that up or is this yet one more of your ignorant "factoids"?

With all of that said, the day is coming when Muslim women will refuse to be covered up in robes and bags...they'll throw it all off, they'll demand to be equal to men, and guess what? The jig will be up in all of those Muslim countries.

Most Muslimah consider themselves equal to men. At least their religion doesn't say that they are "the glory of man" or that they were created from man or that they are created for men.

But sorry for disturbing your tirade. Go on with your ignorant hatred. I'll try not to interrupt.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yeah?

Well, we have more freedoms in this country than any other, unfortunately for you and your little friends.



The only other places where there are equal freedoms are Great Britain, Australian, or "Western" countries.

One's religion places restrictions on your freedoms in ways you don't even see as restictions. And, often in ways that trancend the laws of a country, which is even worse because you choose to live by these restrictions. It's impossible to fully explain this to you because you see the restrictions of your religion as "right" and the restrictions of other religions as "extreme" or "wrong".

Is the burka extreme? Certainly, from our perspective. From another perspective, the bikini is just as extreme: savethemales.ca - The Debauchery of American Womanhood: Bikini vs. Burka (note: this link does not represent my opinion, but merely someone else's perspective)

[Cody Dawg]

sayf-allah

Really? Got any facts to back that up or is this yet one more of your ignorant "factoids"?

I'd say that you owe me an apology.

Here's an ignorant "factoid" for you - or two - backed by links:

From Sean Penn's trip to Iran recently:

At 3:30 p.m. Munich-time, Norman, Reese and I boarded Lufthansa Flight 602 to Tehran. The other passengers were about 95 percent Iranian and a few Europeans. Last year, including journalists, fewer than 500 non-Iranian Americans visited Iran. I looked around the plane, full of modern men and women in Western garb, returning from vacations, family visits and business. Alcoholic beverages were served on the plane. But no alcohol sold for duty- free purchase. Iran is an Islamic state and a dry one. Nonetheless, many of these travelers were happy to get in their last swill before landing.

Four hours and 10 minutes later and a time change that would have us land at 10:30 p.m. Tehran-time, came a P.A. announcement as we went into approach: "Ladies and gentlemen, we have a very important announcement to make. For all our female passengers, by decree of the government of Iran, all female visitors are required to keep their heads covered. In your own interest, therefore, we ask you to put on a scarf before leaving the aircraft in Tehran. Thank you." With that, women clamored for the lavatory. One at a time as they exited, hundreds of years of transformation had occurred. All of these modern women, who would've looked quite at home dancing in a Paris nightclub, were now covered head to toe in black chadors, makeup scrubbed from their faces, cleavages and midriffs a memory.

Link

Let's pick another country, this time one that is supposedly "progressive" shall we? Here's an interview with a young woman:

Host. But, what about strangers? If you’re going out in Saudi Arabia, and you’re not covering yourself up, don’t strangers make comments?

Sahar. Some people do. Some people pass comments. Some people will look at me, and they’ll think I’m Lebanese until I say something very Saudi. You know, very Saudi girl thing to do and they’ll be like whoa, whoa! You know it’s like, what did I just hear. I think that’s good. I also like to do that just to make a point. Even when I travel in a Saudi airport with my friends, they’re always saying, “Sahar’s at it again. She’s not wearing the Hijab, or she’s listening to her music and walking like this.” They laugh too because they almost.. Sometimes, a lot of people say, “I wish I had the guts to do what you do.”

Host. We hear so much about the religious police that are supposedly patrolling, looking for people like you who aren’t covering up the way you’re supposed to. Do we have an unrealistic sense of this?

[b]Sahar. All my life, I’ve heard that people get hit. I’ve never had any of my friends actually get hit or abused or even have the religious police bother them. I’ve had many encounters with the religious police, and actually, it’s interesting. There are two kinds of them. They’re all run by something called the Mutawi’een, and they’re an institution. Basically, they’re the religious police that promote “proper Islam.”

Host. Am I right in my assumption that this is not a real police force?

Sahar. They have an institution. They are protected by the national police, but they’re not a police, so to speak. They’re just like an institution that’s allowed to come visit malls. There’s a mall in Saudi where they’re allowed to come in, but if they cause any havoc, they’re kicked out of the mall. They’re not allowed to harass anybody.

Host. So, their goal is to convince you by their very presence to behave a certain way.

Sahar. Yes, to sort of administer and watch and make sure no one’s out in tank tops or bikinis. So, I’ve had two encounters or actually three with them. In one encounter, this guy was walking by, and I don’t even think he was a police but he looked like he could have been part of their organization. He looks at my cousin and me, and he’s says, “Cover” and then starts screaming, “Cover, cover, cover!” This was in the days when you didn’t have to wear an Abaya (cloak), and I was in a brown skirt and very conservative shirt. My Hijab was on my neck, and he wanted me to wear the Hijab over my hair. My hair is always tied back when I go out in public. I try not to flaunt anything because nobody needs to be flaunting. My cousin all of a sudden puts her Hijab on and covers her face, and I hear him say something like, “You should cover your face too.”

Now who's "ignorant" sayf-allah?





(I'd say it's YOU.)

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I just think it's sad that when women are feeling their worst and are in a hospital that they are still worrying about being 100% covered up. Seriously, it's not a very pleasant thing to think about.

A lot of the time you have IVs sticking out of your arm, or bandages, or even a foley (catheter) and you're a woman having to worry about whether or not you're covered up?

The beauty of this country is that you're free to do that, too.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW there was this REALLY cool guy that did some really cool stuff and made this obsolete.

Forget his name, but I heard he was great at parties.

Whom are you talking about that came AFTER PAUL and obsoleted the teachings the entire church was structurally based upon?

Mohammed?

That Mormon Smith guy?

Or did you just completely munge your Bible chapters?

Corinthians is New Testament.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by analogika

Whom are you talking about that came AFTER PAUL and obsoleted the teachings the entire church was structurally based upon?

Mohammed?

That Mormon Smith guy?

Or did you just completely munge your Bible chapters?

Corinthians is New Testament.

[Wiskedjak]

And what if a woman chose to cover herself up with something like a burka? Say to avoid scathing remarks (as below) because she is not appealing to the eye.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I've seen nude beaches in Europe. A bunch of topless 45 year old women with 4 kids.

Don't think we need to see that here in the USA.

In this case, you also also placing clothing restrictions on women ... but by using social ridicule rather than law or religion. You are saying that age and giving birth somehow make the female body unappealing.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I'd say that you owe me an apology.

Here's an ignorant "factoid" for you - or two - backed by links:

Link

Let's pick another country, this time one that is supposedly "progressive" shall we? Here's an interview with a young woman:



Now who's "ignorant" sayf-allah?





(I'd say it's YOU.)

Good for you. You've found examples of two men out of a population of something around 1billion. You sure proved your point........

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, I can provide as many as you want.

Just let me know.

From google

Results 1 - 10 of about 7,330,000 for muslim women covered bodies. (0.18 seconds)

[Sayf-Allah]

Liberation by the Veil

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Actually, I can provide as many as you want.

Just let me know.

Please provide more. You've got about 999.999.998 Muslim men left to condemn.

Oh, and btw.

Results 1 - 10 of about 140,000 for cody ignorant. (0.13 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,070,000 for cody stupid. (0.19 seconds)

Need more?

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Actually, I can provide as many as you want.

Just let me know.

So are you against polygamy too? because that is quite popular in the muslim world. Just curious.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Please provide more. You've got about 999.999.998 Muslim men left to condemn.

Oh, and btw.



Need more?

What personal jabs?
Typical.

[Cody Dawg]

sayf-allah, I read your Liberation by the Veil link and your link makes me laugh - - and reinforces the notion that Muslim women are mistreated and brainwashed.

From your link sayf-allah

The Hijab is viewed as a liberation for women, in that the covering brings about "an aura of respect" (Takim, 22) and women are recognized as individuals who are admired for their mind and personality, "not for their beauty or lack of it" ( Mustafa ) and not as sex objects.

Why is it that women would be viewed as sex objects by wearing NORMAL clothes? In other words, a shirt or blouse and skirt or pants? No head coverings?

In other words, let me say it more clearly: You're article is saying that if women do not wear a bag over them - from head to toe - that Muslim men are so horny and oversexed that they are likely to be unable to control their sexual desires and will openly lust after women? Because that is what I get from the article.



No, this is all about Muslim men suppressing Muslim women. We don't see a "law" about Muslim men covering up, do we? Aren't Muslim men worried about being viewed as sex objects? And if it's all about sexuality, why do old women have to cover up? Surely they're not very sexually attractive, are they?

In fact, I'm surprised Muslim men don't circumcise their wives and daughters.

Oh, wait...THEY DO:

However what the Arabic actually says is:

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.

Link

Oh, since you like LOTS of links, here are more:

Link

And another link...

And another...(where a ban on the practice was overturned in Egypt of all places)...

Yes, this proves that Islam is one really great religion for women: You get to have your genitals mutilated and then you're coerced and manipulated and forced into covering up.

Nice religion.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Liberation by the Veil

So, muslim men just can't give a woman any respect unless she's covered herself with non-revealing garments from head to toe.

All they see is somthing to put their dingdong into. Of course. This explains a lot.

V

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

sayf-allah, I read your Liberation by the Veil link and your link makes me laugh - - and reinforces the notion that Muslim women are mistreated and brainwashed.
+

Why is it that women would be viewed as sex objects by wearing NORMAL clothes?

In other words, let me say it more clearly: You're article is saying that if women do not wear a bag over them - from head to toe - that Muslim men are so horny and oversexed that they are likely to be unable to control their sexual desires and will openly lust after women? Because that is what I get from the article.

Dear God. It's completely impossible to reason with you. You are so filled with hate and xxxxxx that I think I'll just stop responding to you. Because if that is what you get from that article it's quite obvious don't want to learn about other cultures and don't want to show the least bit of respect.

From that article.
Secondly, the article ignores women's sexual desires. I find certain men very attractive. Sexuality is a part of human nature. It's normal. Sometimes I find a guy very attractive on not only a physical level, but chemical. Like my childrens' swimming instructor. He's very hot with blonde hair and blue eyes and an awesome body. My husband knows I'm attracted to him and jokes about it - just like I joke about the Heather Locklear lookalike who is a lifeguard at the beach nearby (he says he's going to pretend drown when he's in the water just to get her to "rescue" him ).

Please keep your personal innuendos to yourself. I'm not interested in your personal life. Not the least.

My point SECONDLY is this: Why don't men cover up?

Because, don't Muslim men want to be valued "for their minds and personality and not as sex objects?"

Read the article again.

The answer is no. The answer is that Muslim men don't care. The answer is that it's all about Muslim men suppressing Muslim women.

.....deleted.....

In fact, I'm surprised Muslim men don't circumcise their wives and daughters.

Oh, wait...THEY DO:

Link

Oh, since you like LOTS of links, here are more:

Link

And another link...

And another...(where a ban on the practice was overturned in Egypt of all places...

Yes, this proves that Islam is one really great religion: You get to have your genitals mutilated and then you're coerced and manipulated and forced into covering up.

Nice religion.

This has been dealt with so often before on here that I won't bother saying anything about it except that you are simply wrong on that account. If you want to know more you can find it out for yourself (but stay away from the hatesites you frequent).

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Why is it that women would be viewed as sex objects by wearing NORMAL clothes? In other words, a shirt or blouse and skirt or pants? No head coverings?

Wait - have we established that Catholics have certain dress codes? That despite what you claimed, you probably didn't get into the Vatican in a shoulderless top, flip-flops, and a miniskirt?

Just to clarify whether we can now safely ignore this line of argumentation and concentrate on the new theater of female circumcision that you're trying to establish...

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by voodoo

So, muslim men just can't give a woman any respect unless she's covered herself with non-revealing garments from head to toe.

All they see is somthing to put their dingdong into. Of course. This explains a lot.

V

Seen the Hot Babes thread? Lot of respect for women there.







Ertu ekki búinn að fá nóg af þessum stælum annars?

[Cody Dawg]

sayf-allah

So stay quiet bitch!!!

Oh, thanks for calling me a "bitch."

Nice guy, you are...classy Muslim...



Oh, and as far as mutilating your wives, sisters, and mothers genitals, the links speak for themselves.

It's hard to argue against "factoids" or links, eh?

voodoo

So, muslim men just can't give a woman any respect unless she's covered herself with non-revealing garments from head to toe.

All they see is somthing to put their dingdong into. Of course. This explains a lot.

voodoo also caught onto the fallacy inherent in your "religion."

[voodoo]

OK, mr. culture-makes-everything-right. Since even western women in muslim countries such as Iran are required to cover their bodies in the tradition of that country, its culture and religion then you'll have to bite the bullet at accept that muslim women in western countries have to wear their head uncovered and dress like western women.

It's our culture and you have to respect that. I mean.. otherwise we shouldn't really give a **** about muslim culture.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Seen the Hot Babes thread? Lot of respect for women there.

I don't care much for threads like that. Even so, this is a 99% male dominated board. Women are a rare breed among computer geeks.

Were the roles reversed, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'Hot oily He-Men' thread.



V

[davesimondotcom]

Catholic school girl skirts are much more attractive.

[Doofy]

I see Logic's point.

If my women were ugly I wouldn't want them going out in public without a veil either.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Catholic school girl skirts are much more attractive.

They compliment a wood floor fantastically.

[Cody Dawg]

Remember Elizabeth Hurley in Bedazzled in her schoolgirl skirt?

[Dakar]

*stares off into space*

Yeahhhhhh...

[Cody Dawg]

Remember her "pointer" that she whipped around in that scene?





I tried to find a graphic of that scene but wasn't successful.

[Dakar]

No, but I remember the cop outfit...

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, the COP OUTFIT...

Remember that BADGE?



Oh, and don't forget the beach scene with her doberman pinschers...

[Dakar]

Ack. I've uniwittingly helped derail the thread. Bad Cody. Seducing me with thoughts of Elizabeth Hurley.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I see Logic's point.

If my women were ugly I wouldn't want them going out in public without a veil either.

Then why aren't British women covered up from head to toe!??!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Then why aren't British women covered up from head to toe!??!

Stupid human rights laws allowing them to walk around without veils. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

[Cody Dawg]

Okay, Dakar, this is for you:

[invisibleX]

I don't see the big deal here. So a religion treats women poorly. Or at least some sects do. Big deal. They have an extreme view in some respects and arguably the "factoids" stated are merely one end of that spectrum. If one day the majority chooses not to cover up they won't have to cover up. Why should we be offended if they don't share our freedoms? Its not our responsibility. Maybe a shift is already starting. Bottom line is when muslim women want what Cody wants for them bad enough they'll get it. No maybe I worded that wrong. They'll take it.

On the other hand our society has become the opposite end of the spectrum. Women in our society are often considered or encouraged to be objects. You're nothing more than somewhere for a man to get his kicks so enjoy it. All the freedom in the world doesn't do much if your mind is a prisoner of your culture. Could this be said of muslim women? Of course.

The line here is one side thinks its better than the other one. Muslims are your "barbarians" and this mentality allows you, and encourages, to look down on them. This in turn makes them feel threatened and defensive and that in turn creates more hatred.

What I'm driving at is you can't point to someone in a burka and tell them they'd be happier dressing the way you do. You can't tell individuals that their choice of religion and religious practices is wrong and they should stop because at the end of the day its still their choice.

I won't claim to have the answers here but I think what I've said can hold its own weight. One side who doesn't respect women cannot tell another that it oppresses women.

Cody's heart is in the right place being compassionate for other people. Your passion has blinded you to their perspective of both themselves and you. Also other people get into it and try to turn it into a "Islam vs Christianity" thing which is just far too silly for me even to comment on.

[Sayf-Allah]