[cpac]

So I think this is the first time we've seen screen shots of the new Mail toolbar with all the recessed buttons.

Is that the current way everything looks in Tiger? (My understanding was that we were getting more solid grey, losing pinstripes, and eliminating the line between the title bar and the toolbar: NOT that we were getting all new recessed buttons and whatnot).

Or are those new mail-specific combo-buttons (one toolbar item for, e.g., delete and junk)

--------------------

And what's with the down-grade in Keynote's icon? The wooden podium was attractive, now we've got some blue and white ugly-ass podium with multi-colored documents on it?

What happened?

[TETENAL]

I think it's much better than the old Keynote icon.

[OAW]

The new toolbar buttons in Tiger Mail are just unbelievably ugly. The recessed button look that Panther has is much better than the raised button look shown there. The bluish background of the button combined with the colored icon is just downright cheesy. WTF are they thinking?

OAW

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

I LOVE the new look of mail. So much better than the old pinstrip and blandness.

[sandsl]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
I LOVE the new look of mail. So much better than the old pinstrip and blandness.

Yeah but..the strange bubbles around the toolbar icons are foul.

[bluesloth]

I was really hoping people would be outraged at the ugliness of the buttons. But it looks as though only half the people hate them and the other half love them.

Personally, I really like the rest of the Mail GUI redesign. I just can't understand what they were thinking creating those buttons. They look as though they should be on a 10.1 era 3rd party application. Not refined at all.

Please write Apple and let them know what you think. If you really like buttons vs. just the icon, then tell them you want them to look a little less cheesy, like the buttons in Safari.

[mchladek]

I wouldn't have too much of a problem with Mail's new UI if it was standard throughout all Apple apps and actually made sense. Here are the main issues I see:

• Customizable: How do you get icons in groups? It will be much different than in, say, Pages, whose icons are not like that.
• Mailbox Drawer: Apple got rid of the drawer, but now to resize there is a three bar icon on the bottom right. However, between the messages and active message there is the standard bar with a dot in the middle. If mailboxes are now part of the window, why are they using a different resize handle?
• Wasted Space: There is a hugh area to the left of the icons that is wasted. Unless that can be customized, but looks like Apple (or at least the Mail.app team) is going to for centered icon look which may not be customizable.
• Mail, Safari, iMovie, Garageband, and Pages will have very different looks. When Apple creates a new UI they need to have all their apps reflect it, not random ones like they've been doing for the past few years.

[bluesloth]

Here is the link to the feedback page.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

[Hi I'm Ben]

I think the mail looks sharp.

I'm not sure how this looks better

[CatOne]

The new Keynote icon is way better. The old one was too skinny -- it didn't fit in the dock.

The new one looks quite nice there. iWork looks nice too, only problem is, the dock is FULL of blue stuff. iView, NetNewWire, Delicious, DevonThink, OmniWeb, Keynote 2, Pages, iChat, EarthDesk... I need more red or yellow icons !

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Hi I'm Ben:
I'm not sure how this looks better

You don't see how a simple, discreet row of icons looks better than a garish mess of bubbles? That's the most Microsoftian interface I've ever seen from Apple.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Hi I'm Ben:
I think the mail looks sharp.

I'm not sure how this looks better

The difference is the non-standard combo-buttons that look out of place and (seemingly) eliminate the ability to choose which elements of those combo buttons you want to have in the toolbar.

I might feel slightly better about them if they were left-aligned and not leaving all that huge blank space above where the mailboxes are, but the pic above/on apple's tiger preview is just plain ugly.

Also, the combo-buttons has the effect of creating extra bubbles, so that instead of (e.g.) the button for "delete" just being the delete symbol, it's now a bubble with a delete symbol on it -- this just adds to visual clutter that doesn't need to be there...

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally posted by sandsl:
Yeah but..the strange bubbles around the toolbar icons are foul.

Sorry i still think it is better and makes then stand out more so they are easier to find.

[mdc]

i love the one window look of mail (sans drawer), but i really do not like the bubble icons. is it such a big deal? if you take a look inside mail.app, there are all the icons in there. i'm going to save my current mail.app and replace the icons in the new one with the current ones.

we have seen a lot of changes in tiger since we first saw it. i have given up on guessing what is the final look. i am sure it will be awesome regardless.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by mdc:
i love the one window look of mail (sans drawer), but i really do not like the bubble icons. is it such a big deal? if you take a look inside mail.app, there are all the icons in there. i'm going to save my current mail.app and replace the icons in the new one with the current ones.

we have seen a lot of changes in tiger since we first saw it. i have given up on guessing what is the final look. i am sure it will be awesome regardless.

Last sentence = EXACTLY.

Tiger will not be out for awhile yet. Mail's look has changed since the first preview and will likely change again in the coming months. I, for one, hope it doesn't change much - I like the new look. It's simple and functional.

[ManOfSteal]

I love the new look; therefore, I'm sure it will change again.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
Last sentence = EXACTLY.

Tiger will not be out for awhile yet. Mail's look has changed since the first preview and will likely change again in the coming months. I, for one, hope it doesn't change much - I like the new look. It's simple and functional.

No doubt it will.

Doesn't change whether or not it's ugly.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
You don't see how a simple, discreet row of icons looks better than a garish mess of bubbles? That's the most Microsoftian interface I've ever seen from Apple.

Ironic that you'd say that, given that Microsoft was the first company to use toolbars which contained icons without buttons (Internet Explorer 3.0 for Windows being the most famous example). The paradigm was denounced by usability experts the world over, because the icons had nothing to indicate their clickability.

Now that Apple is going back to a more usable model -and Mail is not the first example; look at Safari- you complain? Is this not what the Mac is all about?

[Stradlater]

I'm in the "looks-good" crew for Mail.

Keynote, eh...either are fine, the old was agreeably nice, though (easy enough to change, anyways).

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Now that Apple is going back to a more usable model -and Mail is not the first example; look at Safari- you complain? Is this not what the Mac is all about?

They don't look like buttons. They look like butt-ugly bubbles, much like the Start Blob in Windows XP. They don't convey "clickable" to me as much as "LOOK AT ME! NOT THE MAIL! LOOK AT ME!"

You'll notice that I didn't complain about Safari, precisely because its toolbar looks right. The nonstandard (and ugly) appearance of the buttons and the overuse of combo buttons in Mail is what kills it for me. There's nothing especially "usable" about it. It's just garish.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Ironic that you'd say that, given that Microsoft was the first company to use toolbars which contained icons without buttons (Internet Explorer 3.0 for Windows being the most famous example). The paradigm was denounced by usability experts the world over, because the icons had nothing to indicate their clickability.

True - in fact, the whole idea of button bars was the problem - you weren't supposed to need one when menus/key combos would achieve the same things (I still know one purist who refuses to even use keyboard-combos - just wants to use the mouse and menus).

Now that Apple is going back to a more usable model -and Mail is not the first example; look at Safari- you complain? Is this not what the Mac is all about?

I still think Safari is lousy for now allowing the full customization of the toolbar, though I admit, their buttons are much better looking than that image of Mail.app. (I think the recessed thing works better on brushed metal - but I digress)

Bottom line is I think it's fine if Apple wants to make things look more clickable, but what I don't like is them doing it piecemeal (breaking consistency) or uglily (breaking my brain)

[-Q-]

Ignoring my preference for consistency (the one-time hallmark of the mac experience), I have to say I like the new look to Mail far better than any of its predecessors. My only hesitation is that I really like the new 3-pane view in Entourage '04. Does anyone know if the new mail offers a layout like that?

[Sharky K.]

I have to agree the buttons in mail are extremly sad... those colors, shape and effects, even for a keynote/preview it is too ugly. Looks like buttons from: my-first-website-with-anyoing-java buttons

[dru]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
I LOVE the new look of mail. So much better than the old pinstrip and blandness.

The bubbles don't make any sense. They're graphite when it's pretty clear graphite isn't what's set.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by dru:
The bubbles don't make any sense. They're graphite when it's pretty clear graphite isn't what's set.

They match the colour of the side-bar. That's great. What's not great is that the selected table column doesn't match. And that brushed metal stripe looks totally out of place.

But it's not a finished product yet. They'll make it look great.

[nooon]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
What's not great is that the selected table column doesn't match. And that brushed metal stripe looks totally out of place.

IMO the milk-style buttons (which also has showed up in iTunes lately) is also out of place. I can't say I like this lack of consistency..

[Sven G]

Probably, the bubbles are just a new form of the previous vertical separators: as one customises the toolbar, they dynamically expand/contract, as buttons are added/removed. Hypothetically, of course.

That said, the new look-and-feel is almost something � la MSN Explorer - but a little better (and definitely improvable!), IMHO...

[KP*]

I don't like it. It just looks messy. I don't use Mail, but I hope this GUI doesn't become standard. Although brushed metal finally started growing on me... I guess if they make you stare at something long enough eventually you get used to it.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
They match the colour of the side-bar. That's great. What's not great is that the selected table column doesn't match. And that brushed metal stripe looks totally out of place.

But it's not a finished product yet. They'll make it look great.

The selected table column matches the system default. That is right.

It's the buttons and sidebar that are wrong - they should match the Aqua selection colour too! (Or Graphite if that's what's chosen.)

Amorya

[Steve Bosell]

I wish they would implement column view in Mail like outlook2004/entourage

[mchladek]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Probably, the bubbles are just a new form of the previous vertical separators: as one customises the toolbar, they dynamically expand/contract, as buttons are added/removed. Hypothetically, of course.

If this were the case, I'd be accepting of Mail's new look. However, it looks like Mail is taking on Safari's form of customization, which I'm not OK with. I prefer to order my icons from most used to least used. To do that properly I'd prefer to split the delete & junk mail icons which doesn't appear possible. I also rarely forward e-mail and would, therefore, prefer to not even have that icon. But sense it's in a group, looks like I have to either have all or none of those icons.

I'm not really against the button instead of icon idea, but please let me left align and not be forced to keep the buttons in groups.

[CreepingDeth]

The drawer doesn't need color. And the buttons don't fit in. The regular ol buttons just work fine, and I'd rather have them in the order I want instead of the group they're in right now (appears you can't change order for obvious reasons). Yuck. Let's hope it changes.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by mchladek:
If this were the case, I'd be accepting of Mail's new look.

I still wouldn't. Multibuttons imply a much closer relationship between the functions than a simple grouping (as evidenced by the fact that the Finder has both).

[pliny]

What's this look? Recessed metal? Aqua bubble??

Why don't they try following the AHIG??

[CatOne]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
I LOVE the new look of mail. So much better than the old pinstrip and blandness.

Note: It doesn't HAVE to look like this. You don't HAVE to use the groupings -- if you do "customize toolbar" you can have individual buttons for each function (that is, NOT grouped).

I tinkered with it and did exactly that as MacWorld -- you can have separate buttons for each and every function, and order them however you want, just as you could in Panther.

They are still smaller ovals, but you don't have to go with the grouped icons as the screenshots show. I suspect Apple just did that to make the screenshots look different.

I also played with spotlight... WOW. I typed "pizza" and got 15 images of pizzas, 10 emails advertising pizza socials (from real mailing lists that made it into the archive), and various other documents which had it in the PDF.

WOW

It took about 2 seconds to generate the whole list... maybe less. I was hella impressed.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by CatOne:
Note: It doesn't HAVE to look like this. You don't HAVE to use the groupings -- if you do "customize toolbar" you can have individual buttons for each function (that is, NOT grouped).

I tinkered with it and did exactly that as MacWorld -- you can have separate buttons for each and every function, and order them however you want, just as you could in Panther.

They are still smaller ovals, but you don't have to go with the grouped icons as the screenshots show. I suspect Apple just did that to make the screenshots look different.

I also played with spotlight... WOW. I typed "pizza" and got 15 images of pizzas, 10 emails advertising pizza socials (from real mailing lists that made it into the archive), and various other documents which had it in the PDF.

WOW

It took about 2 seconds to generate the whole list... maybe less. I was hella impressed.

Regardless, the choice of color and button style is way out of place in Aqua, especially in reference to their own guidelines. But anywho�what system are you running? Every time I see Steve do something that fast, I wonder how many G5s they have linked together. IS it really that fast, or is it one of those demos where everything is optimized, clean and new, creating an illusion of speed�kind of like the fast searching�in away.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Amorya:
It's the buttons and sidebar that are wrong - they should match the Aqua selection colour too! (Or Graphite if that's what's chosen.)

If you prefer a boring "everything looks the same" look that is.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
If you prefer a boring "everything looks the same" look that is.

Better that than some non-uniform, crazy looking resources.

[exca1ibur]

Seeing it in person as well, I personally like the new look of mail much better than it is now. I have no major issues with it as is but, the new look is pretty sweet to me.

[curmi]

Wow!

Just stumbled on those new screenshots.

I'm all for toolbars with buttons that look like buttons - wish Apple did that long ago. But the buttons in Mail seem slightly wrong - and in one screen shot the "Chat" button isn't in a button oval at all. What does that mean? You can't click it?



The consistency is a real problem now in the OS. We have some apps using Aqua, some using Metal, some with button-less toolbars, some (one) with button toolbars, some with Safari-like toolbars (which are slightly different again)...

Hopefully Apple will fix things up - but then they've gone to a lot of trouble making those new pages and quicktime movies - makes me think they are close to freezing the look and feel. If you care, send feedback now...

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
If you prefer a boring "everything looks the same" look that is.

Application interface consistency used to be one of the biggest advantages of the Mac.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Application interface consistency used to be one of the biggest advantages of the Mac.

And you are right that it is indeed an important thing if you want a consistent ease of use/learnability for Macintosh applications, but you can have too much of it. The coloured mailbox list in Mail will help making the Mail window easier to recognize when minimized or in Expos� etc. I don't mind that at all and I don't think this has to be a boring white standard list at all costs.

Other things in the new Mail interface do suck though. Like that brushed metal stripe in an Aqua window. That looks really dumb. And Apple should finally settle with one (or at least "few" looks for buttons). It looks like with Tiger they are approaching a dozen or so of button styles, and that makes it a little bit too arbitrary for my taste.

[OptimusG4]

I hope that you can move the side panel from the left to the right, otherwise its just a huge reminder of OE

[lavar78]

Alan Smithee strikes again?

[hyperb0le]

Originally posted by curmi:
Wow!

Just stumbled on those new screenshots.

I'm all for toolbars with buttons that look like buttons - wish Apple did that long ago. But the buttons in Mail seem slightly wrong - and in one screen shot the "Chat" button isn't in a button oval at all. What does that mean? You can't click it?

*snip*

The consistency is a real problem now in the OS. We have some apps using Aqua, some using Metal, some with button-less toolbars, some (one) with button toolbars, some with Safari-like toolbars (which are slightly different again)...

Hopefully Apple will fix things up - but then they've gone to a lot of trouble making those new pages and quicktime movies - makes me think they are close to freezing the look and feel. If you care, send feedback now...

Plus, in that screenshot, the sheet is in some random location, instead of connected to the titlebar.

[alex_kac]

Originally posted by pliny:
What's this look? Recessed metal? Aqua bubble??

Why don't they try following the AHIG??

Because they are writing new ones

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by curmi:
Wow!

Just stumbled on those new screenshots.

I'm all for toolbars with buttons that look like buttons - wish Apple did that long ago. But the buttons in Mail seem slightly wrong - and in one screen shot the "Chat" button isn't in a button oval at all. What does that mean? You can't click it?

I would imagine that this is because it's an unfinished operating system and they're still tweaking it. Tiger's gone through a lot of interface changes - I would assume it's by no means finished in that regard yet. Y'all are reading way too much into stuff like this.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Spirit_VW:
I would imagine that this is because it's an unfinished operating system and they're still tweaking it. Tiger's gone through a lot of interface changes - I would assume it's by no means finished in that regard yet. Y'all are reading way too much into stuff like this.

If they really considered this such an unfinished portion of the system, I don't think they would have posted the screenshots on a page intended to promote it. The look may change, but it's clear that this is the direction Apple wants to take it right now.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
If they really considered this such an unfinished portion of the system, I don't think they would have posted the screenshots on a page intended to promote it. The look may change, but it's clear that this is the direction Apple wants to take it right now.

Yeah, perhaps it's the *direction.* Obviously, the *execution* of said direction is doubtlessly unfinished. Me, I like the direction. I figure the execution of it will be pretty nice when Apple is finished with it, which they aren't I'm guessing.

[Chuckit]

If it is not pretty darn close to what they intend for the final product, it's pretty goofy for them to put it on their Mac OS X PR page. It's not like this is some dip posting a screenshot from an illegitimately obtained beta � this is Apple saying, "This is the face we want to show you. We think it looks good as is."