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clipamp · Nov 12, 2003, 03:01 PM

I have been deleted several times and eventually banned from Apple discussion boards for this message. I was given warning 5 minutes before I got the email saying I was banned, so I'm not sure where to go from here. I read over Apple's TOS and the emails they sent me and I'm not sure what I violated. At first I was surprised that Apple would actively be moderating their discussion boards, especially when Apple reps constantly deny the issues people have been experiencing as being widespread. They often claim to know nothing about them, but clearly there is an Apple employee CONSTANTLY reading the forums. The message was posted yesterday, deleted. Today I was smart and saved it. I was deleted both times within 5 or 10 minutes (yesterday and today).

The reason I post this here is because I feel like there's nowhere I can be heard. I wonder how many posts Apple deletes everyday. As stated below Apple reps are good for nothing.

Any advice would of course be greatly appreciated.

Here's my oh-so-controversial post.

I thought I posted yesterday but either I screwed it up or it was deleted. I'm not sure if this forum is moderated, and if it is why it would've been deleted, but like I said I did post yesterday and today it's nowhere to be found.

Update: It wasn�t me, this post keeps getting deleted.

Anyway, I am in the same situation as everyone else here more or less, and rather than bore you with those details, I just wanted to share some "information" I got on the phone yesterday from Apple Customer Care.

Yesterday was the 4th date I had been given as a ship date for my 15" replacement. I called to see if it shipped (which I naturally assumed it hadn't) and get a tracking number if it had.

The woman who had been assigned to my case is now "out of the office and won't be able to return any phone calls." Last week she was sick. Who knows. The message on her voicemail said to call AppleCare.

I called AppleCare and got a terrible rep. He was rude to say the least. Eventually after getting no information and getting nowhere (not only did he laugh when I mentioned I should somehow be compensated, he told me this wasn't a free for all and there is no way Apple is going to "throw things at me for free").

I called back and got a woman, and unfortunately I don't know her name, although I really, really, really wish I did.

I explained the situation and told her how I wanted details as to WHY it wasn't shipping, and not just be told ship date after ship date after ship date that always fall through. She put me on hold for a few minutes and came back with the same story, first telling me it would ship on Nov. 20 and then changing her mind and saying 7-10 days.

Interestingly enough, I said something that prompted her to give out some statistics.

According to her, Apple has sold "well over a million" of the new 15" PowerBooks and the reason for the delay is that the damand is so high Apple just can't keep up. Furthermore, "less than 3%" of the new 15" PB's were affected by the white spots. I mentioned the petition online, which she first dismissed as a "rumor site," but later when I mentioned the 1200 or so people that had signed it she restated the fact that well over a million have supposedly been sold.

A million PowerBooks? Or a million iPods? Or a million downloads of iTunes? Or a million songs sold? Maybe they're all lies, do we have any way of knowing the truth?

Apple's market share is PUBLIC knowledge that has been reported for years by many independent sources. Does she think I am stupid? Or is she completely retarded?

Later in the call she started eating. Loudly. I wonder if it was just to get me more mad, because I can't think of anything less professional a customer service rep can do while on the phone with an angry customer.

I have used Apple's for practically my whole life, ever since I could use a computer it was an Apple (I'm now 20). This PowerBook was the first computer I've bought with my own money, and it has been nothing but a miserable experience. Apple Customer Service/Care/Support/Whatever is the worst I have ever dealt with and I can't imagine being treated worse by a company.

Getting used to employees lying is something I've just begun to accept since about mid-September when my first AppleCare Powerbook related call was made. I was lied to then and on every subsequent call I've heard nothing but more lies. You name it, I've been following this forum and I've heard everything you guys have heard.

To be completely honest, the reason I didn't post about my problems earlier was that I didn't see the point. I was a huge Apple fan and supporter for years and I felt enough people had posted, if I added another it would only make them look worse. In some twisted way I thought I would "protect" them by not ranting on this public forum, they were dealing with my problem so I thought I'd keep it on a one-to-one basis with Apple. Yesterday my opinion on this completely changed.

To reiterate, I have never been treated so badly by any company EVER. Regardless of the circumstance I was in.. a few years back when I first went to college my parents bought me an HP laptop, my first Windows compuer, for some reason I really wanted it (ultimately something I regretted later). At one point the hard drive failed, I had had the computer for about 6 months. Not only did HP replace the computer, they sent me a new laptop OVERNIGHT and I sent the defective one back in the same box. THAT WAS IT. Simple, taking care of the customer. If it wasn't for me, they wouldn't have a job, they wouldn't have a company.

Obviously "the customer is always right" is NOT a strategy employed by Apple. Obviously Apple makes no attempt at finding customer care representatives that know how to deal with customers.

If anyone knows anywhere else to go, I was told by customer care that there is no one higher than them that I can talk to. They have a "chain of escalation" BLAH BLAH and there is no way I can talk to a supervisor or anything. This was reiterated the second time I called by the operator, she said hopefully I'll get someone different who is "nicer." So much for that idea.

To anyone who hasn't already spent their $3000 to partake in this NIGHTMARE, DON'T. Save yourself the trouble of having to deal with Apple's TERRIBLE customer support. Forget the trouble of having to deal with a defective computer, the biggest headache here comes from the people Apple pays to KEEP THE CUSTOMERS HAPPY.

After 20 years of support, I hate Apple. I've been so, so patient. When I spend $3000 on a product that for whatever reason cannot be delivered, AT LEAST TELL ME WHY. I believe that it's my RIGHT to know.

Apple RELIES on their loyal customer base to persevere, they RELY on word-of-mouth sales (which I've done plenty of myself). They're not getting any more from me, the last thing I could imagine myself telling a friend to do is get themselves involved in this MESS.

Thank you Apple, for NOTHING.

BTW, here are the terms of service I was sent in an email that I must have "violated" enough to warrant them banning me from the discussions.

* Discussions of Apple policies and procedures (including pricing and repair policies)
* Speculations/rumors about future Apple decisions
* Questions/rumors about unreleased products
* Posts in the technical forums that are not directly related to a technical support issue
* Polls, petitions, auctions, or advertisements
* Posts that are only complaints
* Posts which contain or imply abusive or obscene language
* Posts which are abusive to other Discussions users

Anyone have a guess?

-peter

Shaddim · Nov 12, 2003, 03:16 PM

Cancel the order and buy from a local reseller or CompUSA. Currently we (at my store) are being quoted 5-7 days on stock 1.25GHz models.

anaphora68 · Nov 12, 2003, 03:17 PM

I'm not siding with Apple but based on what you said they gave you a reason, their supply cannot meet the demand and you returned your laptop at a time of high demand. Everyone's order for a new Powerbook has been bumped, whether for QC or demand, the two issues are related.

At any rate, the writing's in your post.

clipamp · Nov 12, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Cancel the order and buy from a local reseller or CompUSA. Currently we (at my store) are being quoted 5-7 days on stock 1.25GHz models.

Thanks, I've tried that. I am awaiting a replacement and they refuse to let me cancel the order. They refuse to give me my money back. My only option according to the people I spoke with yesterday is to wait. They say 7-10 days but like I said this has been changed 4 times so far.

I called the closest Apple Store (Chestnut Hill outside of Boston, MA) yesterday and was told they have plenty in stock. Unfortunately with the issue of the replacement they said there was nothing they could do.

Lorinserbenz · Nov 12, 2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by anaphora68:
I'm not siding with Apple but based on what you said they gave you a reason, their supply cannot meet the demand and you returned your laptop at a time of high demand. Everyone's order for a new Powerbook has been bumped, whether for QC or demand, the two issues are related.

At any rate, the writing's in your post.

Demand???!! You have got to be kidding!
There is no demand... the problem is Apple SCREWED UP. The designed a product and forget the most important thing.... REAL WORLD TESTING.
Apple was has been criticized for showing new products but never delivering on time...Anyone remember the 17 inch Powerbook delays?! This is why Apple rushed the 15 inch out. I recall seeing nicve BOLD read text on Apple website saying IN STOCK READY TO SHIP.
Just the other day Apple had 15.2 inch Al'REFURBS in 1ghz and 1.25 ghz. Now how does this make all the people feel that are waiting for the units from repair???!! I would be pissed...
The only reason Apple is out of 15 inch Al Powerbooks is because 40% of them are DEFECTIVE. Lets see.... white spots, bad keyboards, bad latches, kernal panics... etc....
Apples delays are because of DEFECTS not sales.
If anyone MUST have a 15.2, go to www.bestbuy.com, try your local Apple store. The store in my hometown, Tampa... has plenty to sell.

clipamp · Nov 12, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Lorinserbenz:
Just the other day Apple had 15.2 inch Al'REFURBS in 1ghz and 1.25 ghz. Now how does this make all the people feel that are waiting for the units from repair???!! I would be pissed...
The only reason Apple is out of 15 inch Al Powerbooks is because 40% of them are DEFECTIVE. Lets see.... white spots, bad keyboards, bad latches, kernal panics... etc....
Apples delays are because of DEFECTS not sales.
If anyone MUST have a 15.2, go to www.bestbuy.com, try your local Apple store. The store in my hometown, Tampa... has plenty to sell.

The issue of the refurbs is one of the reasons why I was so angry yesterday. I mentioned this and I also mentioned that new PB's were available at a nearby Apple Store. I asked why existing customers weren't dealt with before new ones and was told to wait. Simply told to wait. I asked when the waiting would stop and they couldn't tell me. I'm furious.

And just to agree, this issue definitely has nothing to do with demand. They're putting new screens on REFURBS, why can't they throw a new screen on a REPLACEMENT. I've been waiting for about a month.

Common sense, at least to me, is deal with those you SCREWED over first. Then try to get new PB's sold. Clearly to Apple it's all about the money, they obviously earn more from selling a new PB then sending out a replacement.

Apple has made a LOT of money off of me and my family in the past, not to mention the countless people I have insisted purchase an Apple when they were in the market for a new computer, and actually have. I don't think this is a trend that will continue.

romeosc · Nov 12, 2003, 03:55 PM

BUY a USED 15" TIPB and wait until rev B. You can probably get back almost all you paid for the TI!

clipamp · Nov 12, 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by romeosc:
BUY a USED 15" TIPB and wait until rev B. You can probably get back almost all you paid for the TI!

I wish this was an option. As far as I've been told there is no recourse.

I bought it the day after they were released at the Chestnut Hill Apple Store. I brought it back there the first time it needed a repair and it was sent out from there. It came back to me at my house defective. At this point I called again and was instructed to send it in again. After waiting 2 weeks I called to get the status and was told it would be mroe delays. I was eventually issued a replacement, as it would be "quicker than waiting for yet another repair." That's what I was told, that's the main reason I went with the replacement.

I wish I could walk into the Apple Store that I BOUGHT the machine at and get a new one that they have "plenty" of in stock. But the guy that told me they had plenty in stock also told me I have to deal with AppleCare and cannot get a replacement at the store. If anyone knows otherwise please let me know.

Lorinserbenz · Nov 12, 2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by clipamp:
I wish this was an option. As far as I've been told there is no recourse.

I bought it the day after they were released at the Chestnut Hill Apple Store. I brought it back there the first time it needed a repair and it was sent out from there. It came back to me at my house defective. At this point I called again and was instructed to send it in again. After waiting 2 weeks I called to get the status and was told it would be mroe delays. I was eventually issued a replacement, as it would be "quicker than waiting for yet another repair." That's what I was told, that's the main reason I went with the replacement.

I wish I could walk into the Apple Store that I BOUGHT the machine at and get a new one that they have "plenty" of in stock. But the guy that told me they had plenty in stock also told me I have to deal with AppleCare and cannot get a replacement at the store. If anyone knows otherwise please let me know.

Take the manager aside, and tell him you want a refund. Go to all the websites that have written about the spots and PRINT the messages along with the Macworld articles, the online petitions, the Silicon Valley article...etc... and ask for a new one, money back, or get the 17. I got the 17 and got my money back on the second 15 I bought. I went through FIVE 15 Al's ALL had spots.

anaphora68 · Nov 12, 2003, 05:56 PM

40%, where are you getting your figures from? If that's so then roughly half of the people on my campus that have these machines should be having problems, and there is not a single report of any problems with ANY of the AlBooks on my campus, and don't start telling me I'm wrong on that figure, I work tech support. A lot of these problems sound user induced in the first place. I'm not saying that Applie DIDNT ship defective units, but units that start having problems well after some one received them are also a sign of bad care. If you put a ton of weight on a laptop, on the top, you are going to damage the screen. It happens to PCs, not just this specific model of Powerbook.

Everyone should just stop complaining, if you're not happy with Apple good for you, go buy a Dell. I've used Apples for 10 years now and have had no problems, even when I have had to send something in for repair.

I didn't post that to get flamed by the way, I appreciate the timliness of your rude posting. I was just positing a possible solution. It's good to know you can speak your mind freely on these forums.

jcgerm · Nov 12, 2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by anaphora68:
40%, where are you getting your figures from? If that's so then roughly half of the people on my campus that have these machines should be having problems, and there is not a single report of any problems with ANY of the AlBooks on my campus, and don't start telling me I'm wrong on that figure, I work tech support. A lot of these problems sound user induced in the first place. I'm not saying that Applie DIDNT ship defective units, but units that start having problems well after some one received them are also a sign of bad care. If you put a ton of weight on a laptop, on the top, you are going to damage the screen. It happens to PCs, not just this specific model of Powerbook.

Everyone should just stop complaining, if you're not happy with Apple good for you, go buy a Dell. I've used Apples for 10 years now and have had no problems, even when I have had to send something in for repair.

I didn't post that to get flamed by the way, I appreciate the timliness of your rude posting. I was just positing a possible solution. It's good to know you can speak your mind freely on these forums.

I'm sorry but the thousands of people who have posted about their problems on message boards (and even those who haven't) are not lying about their problems. And, arguing numbers isn't going to help anyone, but there are a large number of us that have had problems with their 15" AL Powerbooks. Personally, I've had LCD, battery, and keyboard problems so far and I've been able to use the thing for 3 weeks out of 6-7 that I've owned it. Plus the LCD problem showed up after 2 weeks of use. I BABY this laptop. I treat it better than my old dell laptop, so it's not me that's the problem.

Also, the fact that applecare cannot fix laptops due to lack of parts is a clear indicator of how many people need this specific repair. There comes a time when a coincidence like that is no longer a coincidence. I'm sorry but it sounds like you're calling all of us liers. That just isn't right.

anaphora68 · Nov 12, 2003, 10:20 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're getting that I am calling you all liars. I wasn't aware that it is a problem for someone to voice thier opinion on a public forum. I was simply trying to offer a differing viewpoint. I said in MY POSTING that there is a problem but that SOME OF THE PROBLEMS may in fact be user induced. I work tech support and I know how to diagnose a manufacturing defect versus a user issue, all I was saying is that some of the issues with the new powerbooks are user induced, and SOME ARE LEGITIMATE. If you're going to try and flame me do it right.

Luca Rescigno · Nov 12, 2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by anaphora68:
40%, where are you getting your figures from? If that's so then roughly half of the people on my campus that have these machines should be having problems, and there is not a single report of any problems with ANY of the AlBooks on my campus, and don't start telling me I'm wrong on that figure, I work tech support. A lot of these problems sound user induced in the first place. I'm not saying that Applie DIDNT ship defective units, but units that start having problems well after some one received them are also a sign of bad care. If you put a ton of weight on a laptop, on the top, you are going to damage the screen. It happens to PCs, not just this specific model of Powerbook.

Everyone should just stop complaining, if you're not happy with Apple good for you, go buy a Dell. I've used Apples for 10 years now and have had no problems, even when I have had to send something in for repair.

I didn't post that to get flamed by the way, I appreciate the timliness of your rude posting. I was just positing a possible solution. It's good to know you can speak your mind freely on these forums.

Simple, dude. See how people on message boards and stuff, you know, Apple fanatics, are noticing all these problems yet you're getting very few reports as a tech support guy about defective units?

It's not because the guys at the message boards are leaving heavy stuff on their screen all the time. These are the people who would treat their PowerBooks the best. They're also the ones who would be most likely to notice any imperfection. Many users might not notice the white spots, and those are the ones who are more likely to treat their computers carelessly.

striker100 · Nov 12, 2003, 10:29 PM

It sucks there's no doubt about it.
Apple treated you horribly and they deserve to lose your business, I agree with you 1000%.

The only thing I can say is first you are safest getting a replacement from Apple even if it does take a couple of extra weeks. At least you will very likely get a Powerbook that will not have the display problem again, if you were to buy a stock 15" Powerbook there is a very good chance you'll get another with the same problem and then imagine how you'll feel.

Hopefully when you do get the replacement after a while you'll enjoy it so much this will just be a bad memory.

I certainly hope that is the case.

jyvin563 · Nov 12, 2003, 10:48 PM

I went through 2 of them and said the hell with this. I traded mine for this nice set up I am on now; 1.6 G5, 17 in. Studio, 1 GB of memory. Screw'm!

Waveman · Nov 12, 2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by anaphora68:
40%, where are you getting your figures from? If that's so then roughly half of the people on my campus that have these machines should be having problems, and there is not a single report of any problems with ANY of the AlBooks on my campus, and don't start telling me I'm wrong on that figure, I work tech support. A lot of these problems sound user induced in the first place. I'm not saying that Applie DIDNT ship defective units, but units that start having problems well after some one received them are also a sign of bad care. If you put a ton of weight on a laptop, on the top, you are going to damage the screen. It happens to PCs, not just this specific model of Powerbook.

Everyone should just stop complaining, if you're not happy with Apple good for you, go buy a Dell. I've used Apples for 10 years now and have had no problems, even when I have had to send something in for repair.

You're probably correct in saying that the percentage of problematic PowerBooks is less than 40%, but it's not negligible, either.

I take issue with your contention that mishandling is to blame for many of the screen problems that people are reporting. My first 15" AlBook had white spots out of the box; my second is now developing them, despite careful handling. This is my 4th PB model since the 170, and the most problematic so far (that includes a 5300).

As for complaining, you don't get a response unless you make your voice heard. There is a right way and a wrong way to do this, however, and the banned poster probably was in the latter group. I do understand his frustration, though.

wy4tt · Nov 12, 2003, 11:18 PM

if they're not tough enough to be gently carried in a protected bag with nothing on top of them...then apple's idea of a laptop is really just an expensive, unreliable desktop that looks pretty sitting on the breakfast table. not sure what anyone else has done to their pb's, but i know what has happened to mine for every minute of our short time together (2 weeks). and if, by being overly cautious and careful as i've used it is considered abuse...then i'm guilty. some people use their computers. guess R&D forgot that.

let us know how your situation turns out.

:dragonflypro: · Nov 12, 2003, 11:39 PM

First of all, I imagine the post was deleted because it was a wild foray into bitchiness. You even stated yourself that you weren't posting about anything new...seems rather that you decided you have an axe to grind and decided to do it in a place where you could garner a good measure empathy.

As a matter of fact, from you original post, I am not even sure what your problem was. I don't doubt your machine is having problems...I don't deny that you deserve to have it fixed. However, letting the situation consume you is not the answer. I gather that you are just angered to the point where you lashing out at the smallest things...eating on the phone, factoid in accuracies, whatever.

...that a diatribe like this that is nothing other than a rant is deleted from a support forum on hosted by the company that makes the product should come as no surprise.

Incidentally, I'd like to point out the warranty on the PBs are a year.

OK, so maybe there are white spots on your screen. That sucks. Apple has even basically publicly acknowledged the issue.

It is also no big secret Apple has delayed delivery of 15a in the short-term.

So why in the world do all these users, knowing this, send their PBs to Apple, then whine about it when there is a delay? It is like those who live on the Mississippi flood plain that are actually surprised to see their house covered in water.

If it (your issue) isn't rendering the machine completely useless, hang on to it for spell and then send it in when it is much less likely there will be a delay

hmmm, look...a rant of my own.

T

wy4tt · Nov 13, 2003, 12:05 AM

i agree. don't send it in if you don't think it will be shipped back in a timely manner. so, do i believe apple reps are telling me the truth? i was quoted 5-7 business days for turnaround from applecare. if i knew this were true i'd send it in. as things stand, i don't know what to do. and that's not a place customers should be placed in, imo. the best way to get rumors flowing is to not be open about the situation. maybe it would be in apple's best interest to do more than "basically publicly acnkowledge the problem". i don't know many companies that command such high brand loyalty as apple. maybe i'm wrong, but telling apple customers there is a problem that is being addressed (and how and when)would squash a lot of these problems.

Lorinserbenz · Nov 13, 2003, 12:49 AM

My bitch about the whole situation is Apple has not addressed the buyers of the 15 inch Powerbooks directly.
I think a statement stating that any user experiencing irregularties in their display to contact Apple care for a replacement/repair or refund. This sort of communication would go a long way to retore faith and credibility.
Apples "we never make a defective product mentality" is getting old.

goMac · Nov 13, 2003, 01:09 AM

I ate while I was on the phone with AppleCare getting my horrid Ti 15" replaced with an AlBook 15".

nagromme · Nov 13, 2003, 01:42 AM

I'm getting a 15" AlBook--in part because Apple treated me so well when I had problems with my last PowerBook. (IBM hard drive died in it, and then I lost my receipt! They worked it out.) I also talked to the nearest Genius Bar and was told if I wanted to open my new PowerBook in the store, I could get a swap on the spot if it had any defects. Tempting--but since I know the defects are the minority, I'm probably buying from MacConnection and getting free RAM.

However, the risk of defects does matter to me, and so I'm waiting a little to hear if the odds have improved. (I know the odds of getting a perfect 'Book were always good--but if Apple addresses the spots issue in manufacturing and makes the odds BETTER, that's in my favor.)

I believe that you've had bad luck in in who you've dealt with, though, and I'd be just as mad as you are. I will offer three pieces of advice, from dealing with OTHER companies who have treated me rotten. These tips have worked for me--EVENTUALLY:

1. Be polite and don't blame the person you are talking to. Calmly reject their excuses, even let THEM get emotional and unprofessional, but stay cool on the phone yourself. If the issue is NOT their fault, you'd rather have an ally than someone to vent on. If it IS their fault, they'll take you more seriously if they can tell how adamant you truly are--rather than hoping you'll "cool down" later.

2. Always get the person's name. You may need it--but even if you don't, they'll be on the ball better knowing that you are tracking what they personally do. (I often forget to ask--so write a note to yourself with things to remember to ask, and include that.)

3. As you already tried--keep taking it to a supervisor. If they refuse, ask for the name of their supervisor, and tell them you will call back until you get things resolved. Then they know that if they stonewall you, it just might come back to haunt them personally. Sometimes trying a different division helps--like customer service vs. tech support. You can get transferred internally to people you can't directly call.

When you DO find someone who agrees to help you, keep that name, and ask them the best way to reach them again.

As for demanding a REASON for the delay on your machine, that's a complex question that you're unlikely to get an answer to without more hours of research than you care to have. The repeated delays (or rather, the false claims that it would NOT be delayed any more) are weight in your favor--they should bend over backwards for the mistake of telling you dates that weren't real. But focus on getting what you want--not on punishing them. Demanding a reason for past incorrect info sounds more like the punishment category. Not useful for your goals.

I also don't think Apple should ban you from the forums. That's a support resource they are denying you. So AFTER you get your 'Book issue resolved, I'd tackle that!

From Lorinzerbenz:

I think a statement stating that any user experiencing irregularties in their display to contact Apple care for a replacement/repair or refund. This sort of communication would go a long way to retore faith and credibility.

Apple did make almost exactly that statement. It was reported a week or so ago.

But really, it does go without saying that Apple should fix a bad display--and I've never once heard anyone say they are not doing so. So... a manufacturing problem is a pain for all concerned, but I don't see how Apple's overall response--repair this small fraction of machines as needed--is a problem at all.

Some think Apple shouldn't just fix the duds, they should recall the GOOD ones too. (The majority.) I don't know where that idea comes from.

hazelnutcoffeeg · Nov 13, 2003, 02:08 AM

well, my ship date was delyed, then airborne claimed it hadn't been shipped, then i called the apple SALES rep and bitched about it, then i called airborne and bitched about it, then my 15"Al showed up in 4 days. the box was completely trashed, it had definately been drop-kicked and i have pics to prove it, but when i opened it up, the PB was perfect. it's been perfect, i have yet to install panther.

clipamp · Nov 13, 2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
First of all, I imagine the post was deleted because it was a wild foray into bitchiness. You even stated yourself that you weren't posting about anything new...seems rather that you decided you have an axe to grind and decided to do it in a place where you could garner a good measure empathy.

As a matter of fact, from you original post, I am not even sure what your problem was. I don't doubt your machine is having problems...I don't deny that you deserve to have it fixed. However, letting the situation consume you is not the answer. I gather that you are just angered to the point where you lashing out at the smallest things...eating on the phone, factoid in accuracies, whatever.

I was intentionally vague, I didn't think the problems I have were relevant at all.. Apple is doing nothing for me, posting the specific issues I have wouldn't help anyone.

The problems on my repaired Powerbook include a latch issue, white spots and so far three keys have fallen off. Battery life is inconsistent to bad, I've calibrated and recalibrated and reset the power manager, the whole nine. My first "issue" with these Powerbooks was actually a replacement battery. Life improved a bit with Panther but now the best I can say is inconsistent. The new battery DID help a bit in the beginning (I was only get 1:30 on a full charge) but now I get about 2:00 to 2:30 tops. (Nothing close to the 4.5 the website STILL claims).

Besides the white spots my screen has begun to creak and it appears to be loosening. I haven't looked much into this but maybe there is a way to tighten it, I keep hoping the replacement will come before I get to that point.

The white spots consistently get worse. I'm sure the screen I had before would have gotten as bad as this one if it hadn't already been replaced after a week or so. I anticipate I will soon have an approximately 1" thick horizontal spread of white spots completely across my screen. Above and below this there are similar lines that are beginning to form. Of course I also have the "diamond" type shape that most people seem to have. The four "points" of this diamond are the positions of the horizontal lines that keep growing.

I definitely do not mishandle this thing. I do bring it with me places but always in a good bag.

When you are talking to the person that is supposedly the last resort, the only person you can talk to, and they're eating dinner in your ear.. it's not the type of thing anyone should have to experience.

I posted there because that is the place I checked to see what other people were hearing from Apple. Read through the white spot thread if you're interested, there's hundreds of different people with problems, many posting the varied responses they've gotten from Apple.

The statement Apple made about the white spots is unacceptable. It doesn't admit a fault, it only mentions that users have been reporting a problem. That is BS if you ask me. Not to mention it fails to address the generally crappy workmanship and lack of quality control that Apple devoted to these Powerbooks. With all the attention they pay to making sure the products are in pretty boxes and have custom cardboard pieces and everything individually wrapped, you'd think they could have someone actually look these things over before they're sealed up.

My replacement screen had white spots when I opened the box. It had just been returned from a repair, incidentally one to repair the white spots.

To whoever mentioned the thing about the million Powerbooks.. I know it was a lie, I thought it was so obviously a lie that it was funny.. that's why I mentioned the thing about market share, clearly with 3-4% market share it'd be a damn good percentage of Apple users having purchased this new Powerbook.. so many it is most definitely a blatant lie.

Like I said, I've unforunately gotten used to the lying, I would expect nothing else from Apple at this point.

laserjock · Nov 13, 2003, 12:22 PM

1,000,000 is a lot of powerbooks. 3% is 30,000 laptops! That's a bunch.... prob way more than have spoke-up on the web.

I got some white spots on my 15Al. I took to a genius at the denver store. He says they have no idea why... these are the exact same screens they've used on the TiBooks forever, and only a small percentage have the problem.

I don't know if any of that is true (except the 3% of 1,000,000 calc!) but that's what I know...

clipamp · Nov 13, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by laserjock:
1,000,000 is a lot of powerbooks. 3% is 30,000 laptops! That's a bunch.... prob way more than have spoke-up on the web.

I got some white spots on my 15Al. I took to a genius at the denver store. He says they have no idea why... these are the exact same screens they've used on the TiBooks forever, and only a small percentage have the problem.

I don't know if any of that is true (except the 3% of 1,000,000 calc!) but that's what I know...

Apple pays people to lie. There is no way in hell they sold 1 million new 15" Powerbooks. I wonder if any specific model of any computer EVER has sold 1 million. Don't you think Apple would make an enormous deal of this fact, like they did with the million iPods and the million songs?

It's just another huge lie, about the only thing I can expect for sure from Apple at this point. They keep piling them on.

-peter

Chemmy · Nov 13, 2003, 02:40 PM

clipamp: Had you taken your Powerbook to The Computer Loft in Allston (One block from the Fordham Road stop on the B line), they would've ordered parts for your computer, and called you when they were ready to install them.

They're a certified Apple warranty center, and they do really great work.

http://www.computerloft.com/

TribeLeader · Nov 13, 2003, 02:46 PM

Here's a recent article reporting Apple sales: eweek.com. If I read it correctly, they report 176,000 PB sales (in the last quarter, I believe).

However, regardless of the total number of sales, my guess is the percentage of defective units is closer to 3% than 40% � at least I'm hoping that's the case, my wife and I just ordered our first PBs!

clipamp · Nov 13, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by TribeLeader:
Here's a recent article reporting Apple sales: eweek.com. If I read it correctly, they report 176,000 PB sales (in the last quarter, I believe).

However, regardless of the total number of sales, my guess is the percentage of defective units is closer to 3% than 40% � at least I'm hoping that's the case, my wife and I just ordered our first PBs!

Thank you so much for that link. I have a feeling it could be very helpful, and I was unable to find any numbers like that anywhere. THANK YOU. That is what forums like this are for, and it just goes to PROVE the consistent lying that Apple employees have done to their customers regarding this Powerbook.

You know when you call pretty much any type of customer service and you get the message "this call may be recorded or monitored.." I HOPE my call was recorded when that was said, because unfortunately I have no proof other than what I heard. Maybe Apple will go back and listen to that tape and encourage their employees to tell the TRUTH. Maybe there will be repercussions for that terrible woman I spoke with.

Thanks also to Chemmy for the information about ComputerLoft. I had no idea there was anywhere near me (I've read stories about people in the UK and Malaysia I think on the Apple boards) that would order parts and call when they are ready for the repair. This is very useful to know, thank you.

-peter

MusicalTone · Nov 13, 2003, 08:42 PM

I gotta say that my experience with Applecare is just as bad. Applel make great products - most of the time. But their after sales support is very bad. I wont go into my long list of problems here, but will mention the latest episode. My 15" TiBooks rubber pads that separate the screen from the keyboard have worn away in a matter of months. I phoned Applecare and they seemed intent on insinuating that I had dropped the PowerBook and caused the problem myself. My reply of course was that if I had dropped the PB then I would be calling Applecare with something more serious than worn down rubber feet!

wy4tt · Nov 13, 2003, 09:21 PM

i've got an airborn box to send mine back to apple, but i think i'm going to wait until after midterms. you supposedly have a month with which to use the box they send for repair shipment. maybe there will be a fix by then. hope so. i have seen posts here in which people claim they have received superior support. i.e. old tibooks that are beaten and worn, which apple simply replaces screens on, no questions asked. thing is, i don't think most ppl are looking for freebies or handouts, just a permanent fix with nice CS reps. the people i've talked to so far have been pretty good. i just wish my wonderful first experience with apple could have lasted a little longer than 2 weeks.

BkueKanoodle · Nov 13, 2003, 11:11 PM

If you bought with a credit card, or even a some debit cards, you can file for a chargeback with the Bank. Let apple keep their laptop and let the bank do the work for you.

Chemmy · 09:32 AM

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
If you bought with a credit card, or even a some debit cards, you can file for a chargeback with the Bank. Let apple keep their laptop and let the bank do the work for you.

You better have a better reason than "The screen has funny spots" because Apple's going to tell the bank they offered to fix it for free, and the bank is going to ask you why you want your money back. You have the laptop, a repair system is in place, the bank is going to agree with Apple.

Originally posted by wy4tt:
maybe there will be a fix by then.

Talking to the head tech at Computer Loft, he's only had to replace 2 15" screens so far, including his own, and he says the screens he's recieved have all been perfect.

I think the screens are getting damaged in shipping. I almost worked for FedEx last summer, and let me tell you, packages don't get babied.

Originally posted by clipamp:
Thanks also to Chemmy for the information about ComputerLoft. I had no idea there was anywhere near me (I've read stories about people in the UK and Malaysia I think on the Apple boards) that would order parts and call when they are ready for the repair. This is very useful to know, thank you.

No problem. I was there yesterday. They replaced the aluminum panel around my keyboard while I waited.

RGray02 · Nov 14, 2003, 01:40 PM

I do have to agree, its the minority of people that speak up about their problem that get heard more than people that are satisfied with their purchase. People want to know what is wrong, but they are complacent when they are happy.

I havent had any problems with mine, and reading these boards has me combing the thing for defects every couple of hours when Im at home. Other than the handrest squeaking a bit, and the fan on the video chipset whining a bit, maybe screen has a bit of bend to it, I cant find a damn thing wrong with it. I bought it from the Apple store in SOHO, stock 1ghz model.

I am sure you had problems, Im not saying that you dont have a case. But I kind of understand it from both points of view. Its tough for Apple because many of the problems, like fan whine, are perceived more than real. Its tough for the consumer because they want to think their powerbook was the best one Apple has ever produced.

I believe that the people buying powerbooks with problems are the minority. I also think they are holding off on your shipment because they are sorting this problem out, or are inundated with requests.

This takes me back to my marketing class: if you satisfy a customer, hes likely to go home and enjoy it without complaint and perhaps come back to buy another. However, if a customer finds something wrong with your product, they are likely to tell 10 other people what a bad company you are. Its why Apple fixes a lot of problems for free, and tries for good customer service.

Honestly, I dont know what to make of this, but I want to know when I can stop checking my powerbook for defects. Ive been pretty happy with it so far.

Chemmy · Nov 14, 2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by RGray02:
Other than the handrest squeaking a bit

It's on the right handrest I assume? The latches on that side are hard to put in. Try pushing down to get them to seat better.

If you're daring, get a stiff plastic prying tool, and pull on the piece of metal above the slot loading drive, while pushing down on the handrest to lock that all together.

RGray02 · Nov 14, 2003, 03:32 PM

wow, guess I wasnt the only one with a squeaky handrest.

Ill give it a go tonight. It doesnt feel loose or anything though, I thought I might have screwed it over by moving it from location to location by gripping it there with the display open.

briandunning · Nov 14, 2003, 04:55 PM

I am very sympathetic to all the trouble you're experiencing, and hope it gets resolved soon. But I would encourage you not to be too upset about having your post deleted from the support boards. Your post clearly violated their posting guidelines, and in simpler terms, its content is completely outside the purpose of that board - which is for discussion of technical problems. I know that it's frustrating, because your post is certainly valid and you clearly have a legitimate gripe - you were just sending it to the wrong people through the wrong channel. Whoever deleted it was doing his job properly. He probably could have forwarded it to customer service, but that may be expecting too much.

mag2 · Nov 14, 2003, 05:25 PM

Counting the weekend my repair took 10 days and the new screen seems fine. Funny thing though, on the paperwork, it shows they replaced the modem also. I did not know any one was having problems with them.

khemani · Nov 14, 2003, 05:34 PM

If anyone knows anywhere else to go, I was told by customer care that there is no one higher than them that I can talk to. They have a "chain of escalation" BLAH BLAH and there is no way I can talk to a supervisor or anything. This was reiterated the second time I called by the operator, she said hopefully I'll get someone different who is "nicer." So much for that idea.
-peter

Hi Peter,

Sorry to hear about your negative experience with Apple. Sadly, it only takes one bad customer service representative to ruin an company's image. Apple has great products, but lacks in its customer service department.

If you paid for your computer with a credit card, simply contact your credit card company and dispute the charge. Explain the situation to them, detailing your frustration. They may just take the information on the phone and that will be the end of it. Or they may ask you to sign an affidavit. After that, they deal with the merchant, and generally will side with the consumer if things are unclear.

If you're not completely disheartened with Apple, you can purchase another Powerbook.

Good luck!

Yash

voicebox · Nov 14, 2003, 07:10 PM

Hi Peter,
Sorry to read of your problems with Apple and your PB - it appears you've had a rough ride...
You are right - there are Apple resellers over here in the UK that will order parts in and then call when they are ready to repair. All in all a pretty good service - much better than being given the old 'stone wall' treatment by Apple Care, although when I've had to call Apple Care/Technical (in Ireland!) about my iMac I have experienced nothing but great service; rather like the service I received at my local PC World on Sunday when I purchased a 15" 1Ghz PB. I discussed the white spot issue with the Apple guru there and he told me if I had any problems whatsoever on that score - or any other - to bring the machine back and he would relace it immediately with one out of stock, no problem, no waiting for 7/10 days and definately no fighting with a burgher munching Apple girlie!!
Sadly that sort of service is now pretty rare.
Keep smiling fella .........John

Originally posted by clipamp:
Thank you so much for that link. I have a feeling it could be very helpful, and I was unable to find any numbers like that anywhere. THANK YOU. That is what forums like this are for, and it just goes to PROVE the consistent lying that Apple employees have done to their customers regarding this Powerbook.

You know when you call pretty much any type of customer service and you get the message "this call may be recorded or monitored.." I HOPE my call was recorded when that was said, because unfortunately I have no proof other than what I heard. Maybe Apple will go back and listen to that tape and encourage their employees to tell the TRUTH. Maybe there will be repercussions for that terrible woman I spoke with.

Thanks also to Chemmy for the information about ComputerLoft. I had no idea there was anywhere near me (I've read stories about people in the UK and Malaysia I think on the Apple boards) that would order parts and call when they are ready for the repair. This is very useful to know, thank you.

-peter

sirlexelot · Nov 14, 2003, 07:35 PM

I hate to say it, guy, but you're the victim of Apple's small market share. It's simply a matter of numbers.

You mentioned that HP replaced your entire laptop next-day when the HD failed, but Apple's giving you a run-around about a screen replacement. The problem, simply put, is that HP is big enough to afford replacing the whole unit, and Apple is not.

It was pretty hysterical that the applecare rep told you that they've sold 1million of these laptops. I'd be impressed if it was 100,000. Anyway, the point is that when you only move a few hundred thousand systems every quarter, you simply can't afford to arbitrarily replace them every time there's a single defective part. Yes, it sucks ass that you have to wait for a replacement screen to be available for your system, but those are the breaks when buying from Apple.

The most important lesson here is this: WAIT. When a new Apple product comes out, there's no need to place your order while Steve's still giving the keynote! It's just not that big of a deal! Wait and find out what the issues are first, and if/when they've been resolved. THEN make your purchase.

The same goes for OS upgrades. Note all the people whose FW800 drives got hosed when they loaded Panther. This sucks royally, and I'm really glad I waited to load it on my tower - in fact, I still haven't. I feel terrible for anyone who lost critical data, and it's crap like that which is why you have to resist the urge to be trigger-happy about every new thing Apple does.

As for your customer service rep experiences, that is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe they were so terrible (well, actually I can believe it - I've had similar experiences with Apple support reps). This is actually one major reason to not buy AppleCare immediately - you have the entire first year that you own the system to purchase additional AppleCare. If you buy your system from a retail store that actually does replace defective units (ala Best Buy) and make sure that you get a working one, and then eventually buy your AppleCare, you'll be in better shape when it comes to this kind of nonsense.

Okay, that's my advice on the matter, take it or leave it.

Chunderkat · Nov 14, 2003, 07:56 PM

here's my story.

my fiancee and i each bought a 15 inch pb, combo drive, 1 stick 512 ram, 5400 80 gig hd, 1.25 ghz.

anyway, we got our pb on oct 9th, sent them back to apple on the 20th b/c of white spots.

we were quoted an 11/3 shipdate for the replacements, but then that got pushed to 12/24!

i have a good customer support rep person's extension, and he knows these two cases well, so he would tell me the internal apple shipdates for these comptuers. first it was 11/3, then 11/6, then 11/10, then 11/19. finally yesterday, i received an email saying it was shipped.

the delay stemmed from shortage of 5400 rpm 80 gig drives, and i am really hoping that there will be no more problems with these machiens. these two orders were pushed to the head of the manufacturing queue cause they are replacements.

anyway, so the two machines are scheduled to be arriving on the 20th, even though i was supposed to have 2 day shipping.

i also was not given the option of changing my configuration or even the option of returning.

i'm pretty frustrated with apple, and just want the comptuers.

99Lude · Nov 14, 2003, 07:57 PM

I work for an Apple Specialist, what you should have done was taken it in for repair. If you had brought it to a Specialist they could have replaced the screen and gotten it back to you in a timely manner. I just checked and screens for the 15" are showing in stock, which would mean that we would have the part next day. Problem with taking your machine back to the Apple store is that they don't service laptops, they facilitate them back to Apple. See if you can get your old unrepaired laptop back and just go find a Specialist that will do the repair for you.

wintermute1 · Nov 14, 2003, 09:26 PM

I agree with this, but I dropped off my 15 inch powerbook (FW800) 10 days ago at the Clarendon Virginia Apple store.

They still can't tell me when I will get it back, and report that screens are still back-ordered. So dropping it off for repair with a specialist is no guarantee of quick service.

Chunderkat · Nov 14, 2003, 11:00 PM

so at the time, i was given the choice of repair or accept a DOA and get a new pb. this was before anyone realized that there was a freakin huge shortage of 5400 rpm drives.

that and why the heck should i pay 2500+ for a machine just to bring it in to the repair shop. who knows what else will go wrong during a repair? I had read about airport antennas being misaligned, new screen swaps failing to fix the problem, etc.

so i figured i'd return the machine and get a new one.

that was a mistake! anyway, with these new machines that are coming in, if there are any other problems with it (assuming that it starts up and works), i'm just going to wait until winter break (i'm a student) to get repairs, and i'm not going to deal with DOAs anymore.

one09jason · 12:04 AM

I've been a long-time Apple fan and customer. I get more and more dissapointed with Apple's customer service and policies. You could dedicate an entire website to the multitude of paying and well-meaning customers of Apple that get terrible treatment. As someone with plenty of experience with Apple, there are two important points that I see here about your problem:

1) If you choose to buy Apple, never buy the first iteration of anything they make. There are always problems, and your probability of having one drops dramatically if you wait for revisions. Of course, there's no way to find this out until you yourself get screwed once.

2) You don't deserve to be treated like that. No one does. Unfortunately, you have little recourse. Apple has become like other major corporations: they will not respond to you unless you represent a significant legal threat. I suspect that they employ many clever attorneys that have convinced them that it is safe to behave as badly as they do on these occasions. Somehow it must not not hurt sales much to treat people badly - at least in the short term. Otherwise they would not treat people badly. Which brings me to my point: the only real way you can get justice is to vote with your feet and your wallet. I personally could never suggest that you move to the 'dark side', but I sure as hell can recommend that you don't buy Apple anymore. Go ahead. Do it. You deserve better, and they deserve to loose you as a customer. I'm sorry to say, but you have to either take Apple, or leave Apple. It's a choose-your-battles situation. Unless of course you file a class-action lawsuit.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do. We all feel for ya.

BTW - You were asking for advise on what to do, but I think you've already done the right thing, if not to solve your specific problem, to solve it in general. Be vocal. Be loud about what happened. When sales drop because of poor service, Apple will eventailly respond.

Deal · Nov 15, 2003, 02:12 AM

Apple has been pretty good about their defective products. Remember the 5200's? Apple replaced nearly every part of every 5200 sold and paid shipping and did it with a smile.

I personally only had one problem with an Apple product (my iPod smelled like burnt sulfur and the battery quit working right). Apple sent me a box which paid the shipping to them, and as soon as they got it they sent me a replacement. The whole process took 4 working days (I wish it had been 3 as I was going on a vacation that weekend).

My Ti was a first revision. Great product. My G5 at work, awesome!

It never helps to get pissed off. I have never received good help from somebody I got pissed off at. I know how you feel as I think we've all been there from one company or another. Play this one out. You'll get your laptop. You'll love it when it gets there. I wish I had one on the way....

PeteWK · Nov 15, 2003, 02:34 AM

Come on here people, move along. There's nothing to see here.

It's obvious to me that Clipamp is nothing more than a troll. Isn't it amazing that he just happens to become a new member now? And he just happens to have every problem that every purchaser of a new Powerbook fears? He's feeding on your sense of insecurity. I'm stuck on the fact that he's 20 and has been dealing with Apple reps for 20 years.

I smell windows with my nose all over these posts. Give them another read and see what you think.

PeteWK

Link · Nov 15, 2003, 03:50 AM

Look people, I don't know about you but I'm sick of people slandering and harassing other people because they're actually having problems with a company. That's rediculous.

If they have problems, they DO indeed have problems, and from what I've observed lately it is NOT an isolated thing, it's not 'whoa that's rare', this is happening, and the defect rates are redicule.

Ironic it is, how people never believed my rants about apple support, those people are pretty disgusting. I'm sorry for everyone who had this kind of experience and wish that this company would actually listen to it's customers on ONE front. :shrug:

nagromme · Nov 15, 2003, 04:19 AM

Problems with Apple products are real. Problems with Apple support are real. Someone COULD invent them--it happens on forums--but I tend to assume a simpler explanation: someone really DID have a bad experience. That happens too. Hopefully my suggestions above are of some value in getting resolution.

Having said that, I'll point out (for anyone on the fence about buying from Apple) that Consumer Reports reported a pair of large-scale surveys this year, of computer makers. Apple was THE best in terms of hardware failure rates, and THE best in terms of support and service. And I'm happy to say that's been my personal experience with Apple too.

The whole industry has quality problems--so maybe Apple is the best of a bad lot. But the impression you might get from any forum will be far worse than reality: people post to vent frustration and to seek help--as well they should. People seldom bother to post to say "all is well" even if that's true the vast majority of the time.

If people have problems, they should pursue them and complain about them. Others should be understanding and helpful. And those who might worry that such problems are the norm shouldn't. They are the exception. But when the worst happens, you've always got places like MacNN to turn to