[ryebread]

Hey All, I'd really appreciate any advice you could give me.

As with a few other posters here, I had been debating getting a 15" Powerbook for several weeks, having been a long-time PC user. I finally made up my mind to order it, when I read the news about Intel/etc. Is it still worth getting the PB in the face of this announcement?

The obvious answer to me is - Yes. Because waiting 1.5-2+ years for an x86 PB is too long for me at this point. My main worry is on the software front. In addition to the PB, I was planning to buy Office, Photoshop, and Final Cut Studio, which will cost a pretty penny. Is it still reasonable for me to buy the PB as well as all this software right now? Say I buy the PB, and in 3 or so years I buy a new Intel-based PB to replace it. I might not even be able to use all this software with the new machine, or if I can, it may be at a cost - both in terms of money and performance. Or maybe my assumption about software incompatibility is wrong.

Thanks if advance for the help!

[tie]

No, you really shouldn't buy it now until you find out what the software upgrade path is going to be. I don't know. Even if software remains compatible, it will have a large speed penalty.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by tie

No, you really shouldn't buy it now until you find out what the software upgrade path is going to be. I don't know. Even if software remains compatible, it will have a large speed penalty.

I would buy it now anyway.

By the time new Intel based Macs are out there will be new software versions out, and those new versions should run on either, since Apple is basically telling developers to support both for the next five years.

[Lorinserbenz]

THere is no point in waiting, by the time the x86 Mac OS hits it will be time to upgrade.
Why punish yourself for two years using a PC..
I think people need to take into consideration there is NO x86 Mac software available yet, its 2 + years away. I bet there will be some MAJOR headaches too..

[chrisutley]

Here lies one of the biggest challenges for Apple during this transition. According to what I've read, the past transitions have resulted in a net loss of marketshare. This is no 68K to PPC though, this is a very different animal. I think there's going to be lots of fence sitters over the next year, holding on to their cash or going with Windows as the "safe bet" (note the quotes please).

I'm going to Microcenter this Friday and laying out 2K for a new DP 2.0 GHz Power Mac, and it will serve me very well for the next 2-years no problem. I will run all the latest software, my life will be grand (god willing).

Let's hope Apple hits their shipping dates, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if things get pushed back by at least 6 months - who's to say really. I guess my point is go buy your PowerBook, I promise you won't regret it. If you don't *need* a laptop upgrade right now (just upgrading out of techno lust), I'd wait.

[runejoha]

Originally Posted by ryebread

Hey All, I'd really appreciate any advice you could give me.

As with a few other posters here, I had been debating getting a 15" Powerbook for several weeks, having been a long-time PC user. I finally made up my mind to order it, when I read the news about Intel/etc. Is it still worth getting the PB in the face of this announcement?

The obvious answer to me is - Yes. Because waiting 1.5-2+ years for an x86 PB is too long for me at this point. My main worry is on the software front. In addition to the PB, I was planning to buy Office, Photoshop, and Final Cut Studio, which will cost a pretty penny. Is it still reasonable for me to buy the PB as well as all this software right now? Say I buy the PB, and in 3 or so years I buy a new Intel-based PB to replace it. I might not even be able to use all this software with the new machine, or if I can, it may be at a cost - both in terms of money and performance. Or maybe my assumption about software incompatibility is wrong.

Thanks if advance for the help!

No, the programs will probably not be compatible because of the instruction sets. If you plan to buy such expensive SW which have to run in 2-3 years don't bother if they are not replaceable.

SW is upgraded more frequently anyway, which is taken into consideration when they announced the switch.

If you ned a reliable laptop and can live with the facts that your SW is outdated when you upgrade, then go for the PB15. If expenses is a issue, go for a x86 based laptop which is easy to replace. (and keep the SW :-)

my toughts.

[Wiskedjak]

I've been pondering the same debate. My solution as of this morning (remembering all the OS9 people who had to fork out for new software with the OSX transition) will be to pick up a Windows laptop.

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I've been pondering the same debate. My solution as of this morning (remembering all the OS9 people who had to fork out for new software with the OSX transition) will be to pick up a Windows laptop.

Apple announced a full migration path. Current software WILL run on the intel-based machines; check out today's macintouch on the transition software.

The same issue - software compatibility - is just as acute from a windows machine you purchase today. Will it run under Longhorn? I think most will not.

If you need a computer now, buy the machine and the software -- they will run together just fine. What hardware will run the next version of the OS (mac OR windows) is anybody's guess.

My only hard prediction - classic apps are finally dead on the intel-based machines.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by SEkker

classic apps are finally dead on the intel-based machines.

With much blessing!

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by chrisutley

Here lies one of the biggest challenges for Apple during this transition. According to what I've read, the past transitions have resulted in a net loss of marketshare.

Yes I agree. I have a new G5, well a year old so I'm not in the market. While my PB is showing its age it does handle what I need it too. With that said, I'd really give pause to laying out any serious amounts of cash until I see a better road map and assurances that my investment would be safe.

Seeing the remarks "relax it will be time to upgrade" or "its not for a few years, your machine will be obsolete anyways" does not help and does not calm my fears I'm throwing my money away.

I see three groups of mac buyers
people who upgrade
people who are switchers.
businesses

The people who upgrade may old on to the curren pb/ibook/pm as long as possible until apple is further into the transition. The net effect less sales.

The switchers, some may question why to switch, some may not want to take a chance during this transition period. The net effect less sales and less customers.

Businesses. This group generally waits till the bitter end to purchase equipment as it effects their profit margin. Dealing with debits and credits it may make sense for a business to jump ship and go to windows. It may make sense to hold off and wait until apple finished navigating the rough waters of transition. Again the issue is less sales and possible less customers.

While there will still be people who upgrade/switchers/businesses buying macs, there will be a number that choose not too. There will be people that will decide not to take a chance on a small company that has 3-6% market share and go over to the dark side. What is clear is this is going to hurt apple in the short term. How they emerge from short term to long term will dictate the company's viability.

a page from history, while its like comparing apples and oranges (pun intended) I think it fits. Adam Osborne a early innovator in the pc world announced his new computer will be released shortly and it will blow the socks off of people. Well the sales of his current line dropped to nothing, he didn't have enough capital to handle the dry period and there was delays in getting this new computer to market, infact it never saw the light of day. The similarties here is Apple just announced that starting next year there will be a whole new platform, while the old may be compatible for a while the new one is the future. Well people will hold on to their money at statements like that and apple certainly has more cash in reserve then osborne did, but its going to hurt them - hopefully not like Osborne, I'd hate to see them written down in the annals of history along side Osborne, amiga, comedore, coleco, etc.


Mike

[maCCer]

agree

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

With much blessing!

For some of us, the loss of classic is a real problem. I work in molecular biology, and the software comes in a variety of flavors:

1) Pure unix/c++ programming modules

2) Perl-based scripts (do it yourself)

3) windows-based software that is technically the worst out there but it is supported

4) A few ported versions of (3) for the mac os; the best out there has announced that they have NO PLANS to make it compatible with TIGER, and no amount of hacking can make it run on TIGER.

5) Old, non-supported mac software that is still better than the fee-for-service windows or mac software. It all runs fine under classic. Most are from the pre-powerPC era (amazingly enough, they've survived all these years because they were well written).

I've spent at least $15,000 for the latest mac osx-compatible software, but it cannot run on my current powerbook. Now with the latest roadmap for the mac os, why would a company even want to support the current OS? I think they, too, will wait until the roadmap is clearer -- and maybe just recommend that everyone install windows on a separate partition on one's mac/intel hardware.

Ever since all three major OS options (windows, linus, mac os x) became unix-based, I was hoping for this interoperability. But instead, I find myself very concerned that my future computing life is going to be much MORE complicated, not less, over the next decade.

[wtmcgee]

windows isn't unix based ... who told you that?

[wtmcgee]

Originally Posted by runejoha

No, the programs will probably not be compatible because of the instruction sets. If you plan to buy such expensive SW which have to run in 2-3 years don't bother if they are not replaceable.

SW is upgraded more frequently anyway, which is taken into consideration when they announced the switch.

If you ned a reliable laptop and can live with the facts that your SW is outdated when you upgrade, then go for the PB15. If expenses is a issue, go for a x86 based laptop which is easy to replace. (and keep the SW :-)

my toughts.

This is incorrect.

The software (via rosetta) will work fine on your powerbook today and the intel based ones in the future. Additionally, companies like Apple and Adobe are going most likely release any updates in the form of fat binaries, meaning they will be compiled to work with both platforms.

The current generation of software will work fine (as Jobs demoed PPC versions Office and Photoshop on the intel mac yesterday with little or no speed loss). Please people, before giving advice at least do your homework without spouting off what you THINK is going to happen.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/06/...r.legacy.apps/

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by wtmcgee

windows isn't unix based ... who told you that?

windows xp is most certainly unix-based; M$ paid a LOT of money for the core to that OS over a decade ago. The first major release was windows NT - note that it even ran on powerpc-based machines.

http://www.computerhope.com/winnt.htm

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by SEkker

windows xp is most certainly unix-based; M$ paid a LOT of money for the core to that OS over a decade ago. The first major release was windows NT - note that it even ran on powerpc-based machines.

http://www.computerhope.com/winnt.htm

Just because it ran on PowerPC based machines doesn't mean it's UNIX. Nowhere on that page is it described as UNIX.

Can you guess why?

Because it isn't UNIX.

[Goldfinger]

Windows NT is based on VMS. Not UNIX.

EDIT: maybe you meant that Windows is POSIX compliant ?
From MS's website

POSIX, which stands for Portable Operating System Interface for computing environments, began as an effort by the IEEE community to promote the portability of applications across UNIX environments by developing a clear, consistent, and unambiguous set of standards. POSIX is not limited to the UNIX environment, however. It can be implemented on non-UNIX operating systems, as was done with the IEEE Std. 1003.1-1990 (POSIX.1) implementation on the VMS, MPE, and CTOS operating systems. POSIX actually consists of a set of standards that range from POSIX.1 to POSIX.12.

[wtmcgee]

what Goldfinger said. Just because it ran on PPC arch. doesn't mean it's UNIX based.

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by :XI:

Just because it ran on PowerPC based machines doesn't mean it's UNIX. Nowhere on that page is it described as UNIX.

Can you guess why?

Because it isn't UNIX.

I had some fun checking into how today's writers think of history one lived thru. I stand corrected on one detail: windows NT is not a true UNIX OS. In the late 80's this 'theft' was considered a 'purchase' when M$ hired the team lead by Cutler.

Windows NT is a version of VMS, an OS with many similarities in function to that of unix (and some consider it better than linux), plus the interface stolen from OS/2 (it is not, contrary to some reports on the web, a converted form of OS/2). Here's a nice article, which may or may not be entirely accurate:

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles...ArticleID=4494

[AndrewP]

Originally Posted by SEkker

I had some fun checking into how today's writers think of history one lived thru. I stand corrected on one detail: windows NT is not a true UNIX OS. In the late 80's this 'theft' was considered a 'purchase' when M$ hired the team lead by Cutler.

The definition of a "UNIX OS" is pretty murky these days. In the bad old days it was anything that was a derivative of either of the two major source code trees that originated out of UC Berkeley. BSD was the tree that remained in development at Berkeley and AT&T System xRy was the version maintained at AT&T Bell Labs. BSD 4.4 was the last version to be released by Berkeley in the early 1990s and AT&T System V Release 4 was the last version to be released by AT&T (at about the same time).

Now we have *IX all over the place... Most of the current "free" *IX operating systems (Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc) were based on the command set and structure of the original trees but for the most part they don't contain code that was considered proprietary under the license terms of the original releases.

Most of the vendor *IXes (Sun, HP, IBM) are derivatives of the SysV tree and have been highly modified from the original.

In general "UNIX" is defined by the nature of the kernel and device interface that is running. There is also a fairly common command set, but those are not necessarily required to call an OS UNIX. Linux, by definition, is not UNIX... nor is Darwin, FreeBSD, etc... they are alll UNIX derivatives.

Any version of Windows is definitely NOT a UNIX derivative since it doesn't have the UNIX-ish kernel component or device interface.

Windows NT is a version of VMS, an OS with many similarities in function to that of unix (and some consider it better than linux), plus the interface stolen from OS/2 (it is not, contrary to some reports on the web, a converted form of OS/2). Here's a nice article, which may or may not be entirely accurate:

The Windows NT command line was based on DOS which was based (loosely) on the syntax used in the VMS/RSX command line. The commands have some similarity, but for the most part are very different.

The Windows NT kernel and HAL are not based on VMS, but are a fully home-grown concoction out of Redmond. VMS handles devices, users, CPU states, and memory access very differently than windows.

An interesting side note is that large portions of the NT code based were "borrowed" from various sources. Most of the TCP/IP stack was lifted from BSD. The interface that was borrowed from OS/2. The command line that was borrowed from DOS..... etc...

The comparison between VMS and NT does bring up some good points, but consider the fact that all of the feature points that they compare are present in just about every other modern OS. In fact, they are the high points of of what are considered best practices in OS design.

VMS is a very old operating system with very deep roots. It's also considered to be one of the best operating systems out there for midrange to large systems. DEC did it right with their proprietary OS running on proprietary hardware and the rest of the industry is still trying to catch up to what you could do in VMS 10 years ago. Unfortunately due to the nature of the industry their market share eroded...

Now re-read the last paragraph and replace VMS with MacOS and DEC with Apple... eerily similar, eh?

[Scooterboy]

Doesn't Rosetta only emulate a G3? In other words, no Altivec, no apps that require G4 or G5 will run on Rosetta? Do I have that right?

[polendo]

I would hold on that purchase. If Apple chopped G5's future, then where did the G4 stands now? Software is being supported now; today. Tomorrow, you never know. I would certainly wait.

regards

[jasong]

Buy it now. When the transition to OS X occurred, most software required paid upgrades, but it most cases those upgrades included new features. In other words, you were paying for more than just OS X (or Intel) compatibility. All of the software you just mentioned has a known future universal binary (Final Cut Pro, MS Office, Photoshop), and 2 of them are known to already "just work" in their current unmodified versions on an Intel based Mac. As far as performance penalty, remember the Intel based Mac you buy will not be running today's Pentium IV at 3.6 Ghz, it will be even faster still, and may even run emulated PPC code faster than today's G5 (as was sometimes true in the 68k -> PPC transition).

When the new machines come out, the one you buy today will still work as fast (or as slow) as it ever did, the software will work the same as it ever did. Part of upgrading to a new machine means waiting until the software you need to run is ready.

Seriously man, just buy it. If Apple also released a PowerBook yesterday running PPC that offered a big enough advantage over my current one, I would still buy it now and then make the same decision to upgrade when the next worthwhile upgrade comes out regardless of what's inside.

[DylanG]

How long do you expect to use a Powerbook you buy today? If the answer is two years or less then don't hesitate to buy a G4 PB today. If the answer is three years then I'd still do it. We're not going to see Intel based PB's for at least a year and then it's going to take a long time for the majority of users to buy new hardware. For at least the first year I'm sure it will be the Intel hardware that will have compatibility problems. So it'll be a year for the hardware to be introduced and the another year (probably more) that PowerPC will be the most commonly used and supported architecture. And after that even if PowerPC isn't the majority it will still be common and supported.

[t500]

Buy it! Even if all of Apple's products are converted over to intel next year, There are alot of G4 and 5's out there that will be getting support from someone. They sill still be selling the Power PC's for another year. Enjoy it. I love my 15inch 1.67mhz....

[cobra27]

If I were you, I will buy now. The lost opportunity and productivity is more worrying than the money.

Apple will most probably release a new Intel based PB late next year, but will you buy a revA hardware? Especially when it is a totally new design? Furthermore, there may not be many compatible software 1 year from now.

The 3 software you've named should have some upgrade path to Intel based machines, but you'll have to approach MS and Adobe for their roadmap.

[hakstooy]

I'd say buy it. (A weird recommendation from someone who has been poo-pooing the PBs on these boards lately)

IntelBooks will likely be out next year, but given the PB track record for major revisions (and this will be the most significant...ever) they will be buggy, so it would be best to wait for Rev. B, which would likely be early 2007-ish. Also, we have no idea what is going into them yet, will it be Yonah, or something else entirely. Plus, the PowerMac will likely be the last to go Intel, and until it does, I think there will be plenty of PPC dev.

That would mean at least 18 months before you should really be in the market for an IntelBook which is a healthy life for a laptop, especially if you are a bleeding edge sort of person. At that point, sell it and get yourself a Rev. B IntelBook and ride the wave.

Your financial loss would likely be minimal as well. Look at the resell value of the 3 year old TiBooks; a 1 GHz version still pulls in close to $1500 on eBay, which is about half its initial cost...3 years after its introduction. Why? Well, there are several reasons, but one of the main ones is the fact it runs OS 9.

The diehards and laggards will keep demand high then just as now and you'll be able to pull a good chunk of change back out of it when you want to upgrade.

The only pause I would have is that if you are a not a Mac user already, you'll likely have to put a significant investment into software which will not be useless after the transistion, but be far less useful. So I would be very wary about how much you spend on PPC apps. Of course, you'd need to compare such expenditures to how much software you'd be purchasing for Windows in the same timeframe, which would be essentially useless (apparently) when you do decide to switch.

[yticolev]

I would buy now. It sounds like your real issue would be one of your significant software investment becoming obsolete. That won't happen on the machine you buy now. Future software updates and paid upgrades will work on both processor families. The only real issue is if you will need to upgrade to the latest and greatest PB a couple years from now (which will likely be x86 flavor only). Then your software may not work natively on the new PB and as I understand it, some things will not even run under Rosetta. So it will be a question of whether your software companies will allow you to transfer your license to the new machine which will require a different compiling. Possibly they will have no choice because your installers will in the future contain both versions. But who can say?

But if you think you will be happy for the usual two to six year hardware upgrade cycle for Mac owners (way longer than for Windows), then it is a no brainer. Buy now! There are going to be new PPC models coming out as well if you want to upgrade PPC later.

[ASIMO]

Realize this: You could very well die next week and never have had the fortune of owning and using the latest and greatest powerbook. Think about that.

[SassyPants]

*sigh*...still don't know if i should buy or not...

[ryebread]

A big thanks for the great response to everyone! A lot of great points and advice above.
I will make my decision by this weekend. I really do want a PB and have found myself biased towards it as I've thought about this for the past few weeks, and maybe for good reason. I've configured comparable PCs at lower prices, but I just want a change and something other than Windows. I've been a Dell customer for my last three computers, but they seem to crap-out pretty quick. My roommate had a Mac during college and it lasted him the four years without a problem.

That's right, it really boils down to the software issue for me now. But, hey, the software works great on the current PB, so might as well get it now. I can't see Apple/software companies leaving current users in the dark, so am hopeful that some sort of bridge or upgrade will be available.

Thanks again all, I'll keep you posted on my purchase.

[ryebread]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the delayed update. But I bought my first Mac about a month ago! 15" Powerbook G4 1.67, 1 Gig RAM. It's been a busy month, so I haven't played with it as much as I've wanted to. But so far, it's been a great experience. It's much more fun to use than my PCs of old. I started playing around with Garageband 2 not long after buying it; what a cool piece of software! I'm in the process of getting a midi keyboard now to hook up to the PB.
Thanks again all. I'm sure I'll be posting as questions arise.

PS. Interesting new discussion now with IBM anouncing it's dual core PowerPC chips. (Sorry, don't want to start another thread here.)

[Drakino]

If I didn't already have a Powerbook, I'd be in the market now and would definitly buy a Powerbook instead of waiting. You buy what works and does the job today, and it will continue to do so years down the road. For me, I expected a 3 year lifespan on the machine, and at two years in, I'm not feeling any big pressure to upgrade.

If you buy software now, you are buying Mac software. Down the road, if you buy an Intel Mac, odds are there will be newer versions of Fianl Cut, Office, and so on. So at that time you can then buy an upgrade version for cheeper, and get the intel native version out of it.

Honestly, seeing Rosetta, future Intel Macs will run PPC programs pretty much without a hitch. True, it is going to be slower, but the part that makes up for that is the Intel chips next year or in 2007 will be faster. So the perceived speed will still increase, even when running PPC apps. Running Intel apps will just mean better peformance on the Intel hardware, but with the backwards compatibility, you don't need to worry about having to invest in all new software day one.

[Recto Bold]

I am in a slightly similar predicament. My PB G4 667 Ti is now the best part of 4 years old and despite the sterling service it has given me, it is starting to really become a pain sometimes. It's maxed out with 1GB RAM and Tiger gave it a huge speed increase, but it is woefully slow when I need to use more than a few apps. I have had more than my fair share of value from it and consider it excellent value. Having dropped a CD case on the back of the screen casing I now have a 2nd dead pixel as well as a new dent, and I think you lot have convinced me to get a new 15" PB the next time they speed bump it, which I assume they must do at some point.

I was going to wait for the PB G5 but seeing as the Intel PB won't be around for at least 18 months, and seeing as I will no longer buy a v1 Apple product, 2 or even 2.5 years is just too long to wait. It'll be a reasonable time to buy a new PB anyway when the 2nd revision Intel ones come out.

I hope the new PB's are as durable as this old Ti. It's been quite incredible - Battered, beaten, losing paint, crack in the casing edge etc. and dragged around the globe more times than I can count, but still works fine. I suppose it's just starting to show it's age.

[cebritt]

I waited for PowerPC and ended up buying a 6100 which turned out to be one of Apple's lamer models. Apple's current line up is one of the strongest they've ever offered. The first generation of Intel Macs probably won't be that terrific.

Don't worry about the software. There will be upgrades available. The software publishers want to wring an upgrade fee out of you every year anyway. I'm still using Illustrator 10 without any problems even though Adobe is on CS2 (aka version 12).

The right time to buy a new computer is when you need one. If a new computer will save you 30 minutes a day, it's time to buy. Don't worry about what may come out next month or next year...

[jboeskool]

I know your decision is already made, but thought I'd add this. I remember my first Mac. I waited 2 years for it partly because of financial cold feet, but also because I was constantly tantalized by the promise of newer and better, so it would be "prudent to wait" for that latest upgrade. As a result, I had no computer at all :-) and was denied 2 years of the pleasure of using a Mac. I think you made a wise decision.

By the way, the model I bought? One of the last beige towers ever built! Three weeks later Apple pulled their "surprise" unveiling of the iMac-looking towers. but for three weeks I was king... :-)

[dona83]

I just picked up my new iBook on Friday... I wasn't planning on sticking with a PC for the next 2 years, but at the same time couldn't justify the cost of the PowerBook knowing that I may upgrade in 2-3 years, and knowing that the iBook should serve me decently until then.