[OAW]

This thread isn't designed to debate the merits of tabs vs. other "multi-page single window" browsing approaches. Since it appears that Safari will be implementing tabs that's probably a moot point by now. Instead, I thought I'd get everyone's opinion on the appearance of tabs in Safari. Specifically, the fact that they are upside down.

Personally, I think the upside-down tabs look OK when they are directly under the Address Bar ... but they look very visually confusing when they are directly under the Bookmarks Bar. In the latter instance, it looks like you are selecting between items in the Bookmarks Bar above instead of the page content below.

What do you guys think?

OAW

[Anomalous]

I don't have any of the illegal Safari betas, so I won't vote, but from the images I've seen, it doesn't look upside-down to me.

[dampeoples]

With all the references to camino, why not just use that?

[Peter]

Okay. I dont realy care what tabs look like, I've never noticed how bad or good they look.
So I vote for none.
"I dont care what they look like, as long as they work"

[OAW]

Originally posted by Anomalous:
I don't have any of the illegal Safari betas, so I won't vote, but from the images I've seen, it doesn't look upside-down to me.

Another way to describe it is the tabs appear to "hang from" or are attached to the UI above ... rather than sit on top of the content below.

OAW

[Sven G]

Camino, sofar, has the best tabs, IMO, with the "right side up" - and also coherent with the new, native OS X-style tabs, i.e. "centered" and with an Aqua look and feel. I really hope Safari won't be another "brushed-metal-only" app: at least, the users should be able to customise the final appearance!

[OAW]

Just in case anyone was wondering what I mean when I say that the "upside down" tabs in Safari are visually confusing .... a picture is worth a thousand words!



Thanks to Dfiler for the image that sums this issue up much better than I can explain it!

OAW

[Sven G]

Originally posted by OAW:
Just in case anyone was wondering what I mean when I say that the "upside down" tabs in Safari are visually confusing .... a picture is worth a thousand words!



Thanks to Dfiler for the image that sums this issue up much better than I can explain it!

OAW

... And not only confusing, but also quite irrational and contradictory: the contents of the individual tabs are, of course, referred to the "base line" of the tabs row, so in the picture above (with "inverted tabs") one would rightly expect to see a new row of different icons above when clicking on a new tab, while the window's content below shouldn't change, contrarily to the tabs' titles!

Due to its current, "original" (!) brushed-metal-only appearance, in Safari's case maybe the thing isn't quite so serious (no blue "base line", for example) - but nevertheless still very "strange", to say the least...

[Ghoser777]

Wait a minute. I don't have any illegal builds as well, but from the screen shots I saw, weren't the tabs:

1) Left justified
2) More gelled into the interface
3) Not big, blue, aquish tabs

That picture, I think, is a very misleading portrayal of how the tabs look in Safari, at least from what I recall.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[starfleetX]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
1) Left justified
2) More gelled into the interface
3) Not big, blue, aquish tabs

That picture, I think, is a very misleading portrayal of how the tabs look in Safari, at least from what I recall.

Indeed.

[Peter]

Camino 0.7
Safari v67

[OAW]

Originally posted by starfleetX:
Indeed.

I don't think it is "misleading" at all. In Camino and in the System Preferences image I posted, there is a very distinct blue line that is the "base" of the tab so to speak. This is a clear demarcation of the content that will be changed by selecting the tab. Of course, since Safari is metal this "base" line isn't there. However, the principle is still the same. The tab "hangs from" or "grows out of" the UI above. Hence, it gives the visual impression that you are selecting among the items that it is attached to ... namely, the Bookmarks Bar above rather than the content below.

My point is that the tabs do not appear to be related to the page content at all. There are no visual clues to indicate this since they are connected to things that are completely unrelated to the tabs' function.

To make this point even clearer, consider this....

If the "blue base line" in the System Preferences image above the tabs were removed then they would look just like the Safari tabs! And if the appearance obviously makes no sense in the System Preferences image, then it makes no sense in Safari either.

Is the sky going to fall over this? Absolutely not! IMO, it's a simple matter of the "aesthetics" not coinciding with the "functionality". However, I have yet to hear a single reason from anyone why making the tabs upside down and attaching them to the UI is better than turning them rightside up (as they appear everywhere else in OS X) and distinctly attaching them to the page content.

OAW

[Mike S.]

This explanation is a stretch but I'm going for it anyways.

Perhaps they aren't actually tabs, let us ignore for a moment that the UI refers to them as tabs but that could simply be because "tabbed browsing" is now a somewhat common term that refers to multiple pages in a single view.

The Chimera mailing list (I know it's Camino now but at the time it was the Chimera mailing list) had a lengthy discussion about tabs and how they were being misused in the creation of tabbed browsing.

They came up with an alternative called "quick marks" which served the same function but were not presented as tabs, thus preserving the adherence to the HI guidelines.

Perhaps Safari's implementation are not tabs because using actual tabs is a violation of the guidelines (not that Apple has been sticking to their rule book) so they're presenting something that acts like a tab but isn't actually a tab.

To me, it looks more like a toolbar with tab-like highlight and Apple has already set a precident with Safari that there is no one way to highlight something on a toolbar (their bookmark bar highlights are unique)

I mean, true tabs by the Apple definition don't have progress bars or close buttons but you can place those things on a tool bar.

My point of view is that despite the name, they aren't tabs but something like the quickmarks discussed on the mailing list.

I've never used a build that has these features but based on what I've been told they don't have all the quick mark functionality but perhaps those are to be added in future builds thus Apple's closing of the Seed Program to ensure it doesn't get leaked.

That's a bigger stretch though

[Anomalous]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying now. Incidentally, I want to clarify that I was not stating any opinion about people who use prerelease betas. I was just saying that I don't.

[Peter]

Camino tabs Vs Safari tabs -> Camino IMO is better more ... normal?

[kmkkid]

Personally, I feel like the 'upsidedown' tabs create a sense of 'unity' in that they look like they are part of, or an extension of the interface (which they are). Opposed to being singled out and detached. I thought they looked wierd at first, but then they made sense.


Chris

[kupan787]

I don't like how chimera center justified the tabs (I haven't used camino, so I wont comment there). I do like how Safari left justifies the tabs. I also like how Safari puts in a close widget in the tab.

[Peter]

Camino centres tabs still, dont mind. But with Camino it has two buttons 'open new tab' 'close current tab' VERY useful

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Perhaps they aren't actually tabs [...]

I think you somehow got the point: the currently active "tab" in Safari simply looks like an extension to the toolbars, etc. above, thus making the "tab" part of the browser "control center" (everything between the title bar and the actual web page), as an "indicator" of what is currently active in relation to the URL address, the bookmarks, etc.

Is this some form of taskbar? Is it some "bastard" form of hybridation between tabs and taskbar buttons? What is it? It's really not so clear, at the present stage!

My personal hope is, of course (as already said previously), that Apple - alias the "Shiny Fruit" - will finally go beyond this rather incomplete, Safari-only implementation of tabs/taskbars, and soon make something truly integrated (also in the look and feel) on a system-wide level (similarly to KDE, for example)...

[daftpig]

Originally posted by Sven G:
I think you somehow got the point: the currently active "tab" in Safari simply looks like an extension to the toolbars, etc. above, thus making the "tab" part of the browser "control center" (everything between the title bar and the actual web page), as an "indicator" of what is currently active in relation to the URL address, the bookmarks, etc.

*snip*

Hmm... then I was imagining that some feature could be implemented such that the "bookmarks" change in relation to the page displayed such that you associate certain "bookmarks" with certain pages..

Silly thought and quite inane too..

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by dampeoples:
With all the references to camino, why not just use that?

Camino: 21.3 megs
Safari: 13.3 megs

Smaller footprint.

[Peter]

I am using the Camino nightly build 24/3/03. Some comments -
* The new bookmarks in window ala Safari type, is okay. It actually beats Safari IMO
* It feels faster
* IT LETS YOU MOVE TABS AROUND
Havn't noticed any other features, but OMG it lets you drag tabs around
No ad blocking though

[keston]

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Camino: 21.3 megs
Safari: 13.3 megs

Smaller footprint.

yea, with the 80Gig drive and all that p0rn, hardly any space left...

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by keston:
yea, with the 80Gig drive and all that p0rn, hardly any space left...

Hehe. Yeah, 10 gig hard drive here. But really, what's up with how large Safari is getting now? It used to be 6 megs... now it sits around 13 (v67). What are they adding, it's very unapparent in the builds where the extra bloat is coming from.

[OAW]

Wow .... it looks like over half the people that took the poll actually thinks the "upside down" tabs look fine in all circumstances. Very interesting. I know one thing .... I better not see anyone who voted that way saying anything about consistency in the OS X GUI ... because the tabs in Safari throws that out the window by being upside down and left justified!

Of course, there's no way I could know ... but you know who you are!

OAW

[JLL]

Originally posted by OAW:
because the tabs in Safari throws that out the window by being upside down and left justified!

No! Safari's tabs are not the same as standard Aqua tabs and don't even look like them.

If they looked like standard tabs and were upside down and left justified, it would have been a mess.

[OAW]

Originally posted by JLL:
No! Safari's tabs are not the same as standard Aqua tabs and don't even look like them.

If they looked like standard tabs and were upside down and left justified, it would have been a mess.

"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... then it's a duck!"

They are tabs. The are called tabs in the application. The reason they are inconsistent is because now we have a completely different type of tab. One of the strengths of the Mac has always been a consistent UI ... in the OS and in apps. But if every app can create its own widgets all "willy nilly" ... then the consistency of the UI is ruined.

What is the benefit of having "tabs" in X number of different flavors?

OAW

[ohm^n]

Originally posted by OAW:
"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... then it's a duck!"

They are tabs. The are called tabs in the application. The reason they are inconsistent is because now we have a completely different type of tab. One of the strengths of the Mac has always been a consistent UI ... in the OS and in apps. But if every app can create its own widgets all "willy nilly" ... then the consistency of the UI is ruined.

What is the benefit of having "tabs" in X number of different flavors?

OAW

I think Apple breaks their HIG by using a textured window. As for the tabs.. it's really just how you want to define them(the tabs). In Camino, they are a control that the pages are placed in. In safari they're part of the toolbar/control center. In my opinion, it almost makes *more* sense. The active tab is going to be modified by that toolbar. Safari keeps confines all of its controls to one place, and puts the webpage in another. Camino puts the toolbar in one place, the bookmarks bar somewhere else, and the webpages and their tabs in another. So... it's really up for grabs. Don't blame the developers for trying to 'think different'. Tab boxes in the system prefs are a much different thing than the tabs in a web browser. They are different applications of a similar idea, but that doesn't mean they need to be implemented identically. So even though I'm all for consistency, I'm also for innovation. And in this case I like how safari has set it up. And I think they made it bushed metal *only* to make it look different from the other browsers.

[ohm^n]

Just for comparison....hehe, make Chimera er, Camino a textured window..ew.

[mrtew]

At least the tabs in Camino match the theme you are using.... but the ones in Safari sortof do to.... How did they make tabs that kinda match the theme you use without using tabs that are in the theme anyway? Very biizzarre.