[Krypton]

The Mozilla foundation have decided to hire Josh Aas specifically to work on the Mac side of Mozilla's products.

Hoefully this means better UI compliance and better integration with the OS (there's an address book patch that has taken aeons to get ready).

[yukon]

Finally . Can't wait.

Actually, I was just remaking my profile, as the new version of firefox was crashing on launch.

[TheAlbinoBowler]

that's awesome if they work to make firefox more mac-like...but from looking at this guy's site it seems like he's on the Camino/Cocoa side of things.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by TheAlbinoBowler:
that's awesome if they work to make firefox more mac-like...but from looking at this guy's site it seems like he's on the Camino/Cocoa side of things.

I'd much prefer the effort put into Camino, it really could be a great great browser (I already use it everyday, and this is after trying Safari and Firefox quite extensively).

[wataru]

Putting that kind of effort into Camino would be pointless, unless they plan to merge the projects together in the future. Camino has so few of the features that make Firefox great (like extensions); all it has going for it is that it's pretty. The future of the Mozilla Foundation is Firefox, not Camino. Frankly I think they should stop splitting effort between the two and just kill off Camino.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by wataru:
Frankly I think they should stop splitting effort between the two and just kill off Camino.

Fortunately you are not the only person that thinks.

[macmike42]

Has anyone noticed that in Firefox 1.0.1, smooth scrolling actually works? I'm positive I tried this in 1.0, and was still extremely jerky and molasses-like, but now runs silky smooth. It actually seems smoother than OS X "native" smooth scrolling (which I normally leave disabled.)

[Superchicken]

Sweet, I hope he does some great work... that just happens to make my browsing experience that much better

[Twilly Spree]

I use Safari.

I tried Internet Explorer but it was a crappy carbon port. Yuck.

I tried Firfox and got a distinct Windows XP look and feel and dare I say experience.

I tried Camino and gave up on it since it just doesn't compare to Safari.

I tried Mozilla and kinda liked it. It is the Azureus of web-browsers. All the features in the world but generic looking.

I tried OMNI Web but it felt uncomfortable using a product that I'd never pay for.

I tried Opera and it was really odd. Kind of like OMNI Web is odd.

I tried iCab but damn. That is one silly browser.

I tried Lynx but I'm not into text-only.

I use Safari.

[PurpleGiant]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
I tried Camino and gave up on it since it just doesn't compare to Safari.

I'm interested in this point. What about it doesn't compare?

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by PurpleGiant:
I'm interested in this point. What about it doesn't compare?

The rendering engine is so much nicer in Safari and the whole interface is much more Mac like. I don't know, Safari just seems more polished to me at the moment. Camino shares the second place with Mozilla in my book.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
The rendering engine is so much nicer in Safari and the whole interface is much more Mac like. I don't know, Safari just seems more polished to me at the moment. Camino shares the second place with Mozilla in my book.

A major point about Mac apps is that they are consistent - so you feel you're in familiar territory. From a purely interface view, Safari fails on this completely (i.e toolbar, why metal?). It's almost as if Apple made Camino and not the other way around.

Considering how many people work on Camino and how many I assume can work on Safari, it's amazing how good Camino is.

And yea, Safari's rendering engine is nice, but it often fails - gmail is a good example of this. For the most part rendering in Camino and Safari looks almost identical.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
I tried Firfox and got a distinct Windows XP look and feel and dare I say experience.

I love all these people who dump Firefox because "it's ugly." First of all, that's stupid. Second of all, you didn't do your homework (you didn't even read this freakin' thread).

As usual, there are solutions to your problems. But if you give up before even trying then you'll always be stuck with inferior software.

By the way, what does "crappy Carbon port" have to do with anything, with regards to IE? You know the Finder is Carbon, right? If you'd done any research at all you'd know that Carbon is not inherently inferior to Cocoa. So either IE is crappy or not (it's certainly crappy), but that has nothing to do with Carbon. You Cocoa zealots are really annoying.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by monkeybrain:
A major point about Mac apps is that they are consistent - so you feel you're in familiar territory. From a purely interface view, Safari fails on this completely (i.e toolbar, why metal?). It's almost as if Apple made Camino and not the other way around.

Considering how many people work on Camino and how many I assume can work on Safari, it's amazing how good Camino is.

And yea, Safari's rendering engine is nice, but it often fails - gmail is a good example of this. For the most part rendering in Camino and Safari looks almost identical.

Not really, Safari is pretty much like the iApps which are all metal. There's your familiar territory.

I too am impressed with Camino but I still think Safari is more Mac like.

BTW I use gmail with Safari and it works fine.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by wataru:
I love all these people who dump Firefox because "it's ugly." First of all, that's stupid. Second of all, you didn't do your homework (you didn't even read this freakin' thread).

As usual, there are solutions to your problems. But if you give up before even trying then you'll always be stuck with inferior software.

By the way, what does "crappy Carbon port" have to do with anything, with regards to IE? You know the Finder is Carbon, right? If you'd done any research at all you'd know that Carbon is not inherently inferior to Cocoa. So either IE is crappy or not (it's certainly crappy), but that has nothing to do with Carbon. You Cocoa zealots are really annoying.

Hello stupid zealot

Look and feel are important, else we'd all be perfectly happy with running Mozilla in X11. But we don't.

Sure it is fixable but frankly I can't be bothered, I want my free browser to work and look Mac like out of the box because I'm on a Mac. I'm sure the Windows version of Firefox has a proper Windows look and feel (shudder)

BTW: I read this thread, what the heck do you mean? Does reading the thread change my experienc with Firefox? Are you nuts?

Finally, a crappy carbon port has everything to do with IE. On OS 9 it was a damn fine browser but in OS X it is a crappy carbon port. As opposed to a good carbon port. Perhaps English isn't your fort�.

Read. Comprehend. Post.

Remeber that one.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Not really, Safari is pretty much like the iApps which are all metal. There's your familiar territory.

I too am impressed with Camino but I still think Safari is more Mac like.

BTW I use gmail with Safari and it works fine.

Yeah I think one of the recent updates fixed Safari's gmail issues, but I was stuck on 10.3.3 for a long time and gave up on it.

To wataru:

Yeah I agree that carbon can be as good as Cocoa, but maybe using the Finder as a shining example is a poor choice. iTunes is a great carbon app I think.

But cocoa does have spellchecking, services etc, which is attractive to most users. Camino should get these soon hopefully, and then it will win more followers.

[Deimos]

Firefox is just lovely when you use the GrApple Pro theme, IMO. I think it's the best looking browser out there when using GrApple.

Each to there own, and all that.

[Millennium]

Mac-likeness means nothing with browsers, because the Web is not, and never will be, a Mac-only medium. Like it or not, the Web has its own user-interface conventions, and we would do well to be literate in them and handle them just as well as our own.

Windows users are wrong when they act as though the Web is Windows-only. But Mac users are equally wrong to do this. The Web is not Mac, Windows, Unix, or anything else: it is its own thing. To force a foreign interface convention on it runs entirely counter to its intentand spirit.

[Deimos]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Mac-likeness means nothing with browsers, because the Web is not, and never will be, a Mac-only medium. Like it or not, the Web has its own user-interface conventions, and we would do well to be literate in them and handle them just as well as our own.

Windows users are wrong when they act as though the Web is Windows-only. But Mac users are equally wrong to do this. The Web is not Mac, Windows, Unix, or anything else: it is its own thing. To force a foreign interface convention on it runs entirely counter to its intentand spirit.

Definitely.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by monkeybrain:
But cocoa does have spellchecking, services etc, which is attractive to most users.

Carbon hast them too, but you have to use them. The problem with Firefox is that Mozilla.org's priority is cross-platform compatibility over system integration. For Wataru this is great because he loves stuff like extensions that work on any platform. Other people value platform integration higher, for example because they make extensive use of Services. For them Firefox is not the best choice.

Also, one of the reasons Firfox looks ugly is the use of QuickDraw for rendering on Mac OS X. The result is a less than optimal text rendering, particularly when Unicode comes into play and Mozilla mixes WorldScript with single character ATSUI rendering and other oddities.

Mozilla.org is determined to modernize rendering, but is going to use the cross-platform Cairo library instead of Quartz. So again Mac users can not expect support for features that are unique to Mac.

[sieb]

I prefer Firefox. I like having the same browser on all platforms I use (linux, windows, osx) plus I can use the same extensions. It picks up whatever destop theme I have without a problem (the windows look argument is mute). And its FAST.

I tried to use Safari but its slow, pages I need for work don't load correclty (or at all, not safari's fault but still makes it unusable since firefox shows them fine), text looks the same to me in either FF or Safari. Only thing Safari has going for it in my book is that WMP doesn't play right in FF on OSX, not sure who's fault that is..

Camino was nice, but didn't feel the same to me as FF did for some reason. I wish they would just merge the two.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Hello stupid zealot

Look and feel are important, else we'd all be perfectly happy with running Mozilla in X11. But we don't.

Sure it is fixable but frankly I can't be bothered, I want my free browser to work and look Mac like out of the box because I'm on a Mac. I'm sure the Windows version of Firefox has a proper Windows look and feel (shudder)

BTW: I read this thread, what the heck do you mean? Does reading the thread change my experienc with Firefox? Are you nuts?

Finally, a crappy carbon port has everything to do with IE. On OS 9 it was a damn fine browser but in OS X it is a crappy carbon port. As opposed to a good carbon port. Perhaps English isn't your fort�.

Read. Comprehend. Post.

Remeber that one.

1. Get a clue before calling others zealots or insulting their English.

2. You "can't be bothered" because you are lazy. Just admit it. You aren't interested in the best browsing experience, you're interested in the one that requires you to think the least. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

3. Actually reading the thread would have given you valuable information, like very attractive themes for Firefox, and a way to make the widgets prettier. But you "can't be bothered" to read the thread either, can you?

4. IE being Carbon has nothing to do with it being crappy. Please get a clue before opening your mouth on this subject. You're just making yourself look foolish.

PS. Who needs an Aqua interface or native widgets when you've got this masterpiece of UI engineering?

[Twilly Spree]

You sure proved to the world you're a zealot wataru. Good job

[Thain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by wataru:
Putting that kind of effort into Camino would be pointless, unless they plan to merge the projects together in the future. Camino has so few of the features that make Firefox great (like extensions); all it has going for it is that it's pretty. The future of the Mozilla Foundation is Firefox, not Camino. Frankly I think they should stop splitting effort between the two and just kill off Camino.

What does FF have that Camino doesnt, expect for plugins?

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by wataru:
I love all these people who dump Firefox because "it's ugly." First of all, that's stupid. Second of all, you didn't do your homework (you didn't even read this freakin' thread).

As usual, there are solutions to your problems. But if you give up before even trying then you'll always be stuck with inferior software.

By the way, what does "crappy Carbon port" have to do with anything, with regards to IE? You know the Finder is Carbon, right? If you'd done any research at all you'd know that Carbon is not inherently inferior to Cocoa. So either IE is crappy or not (it's certainly crappy), but that has nothing to do with Carbon. You Cocoa zealots are really annoying.

Crappy carbon port has nothing at all to do with the app being Carbon. It's just that, a crappy port. If it was redone in Cocoa, they would've had to rethink a few more things, and would've gotten a few things for free that you have to code into Carbon (Services) and since most Carbon developers don't even try to hook up the stuff, it's where the general anger to Carbon has come from.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Thain Esh Kelch:
What does FF have that Camino doesnt, expect for plugins?

What else does it need? Through extensibility all things are possible.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
You sure proved to the world you're a zealot wataru. Good job

If you're not intersted in having a real discussion about this, please don't post. Leave the name calling at the playground.

[Sarc]

I like FireFox, and since I found the G4 optimized builds, plus some extensions, it has replaced Opera as my primary browser, however, on the PC, FireFox is much, much faster (as if it where much more optimized, wich probably it is) and that adds up to a much better user experience.
On my Mac, a 1GHz PBG4, wich isn't obsolete hardware, it feels sluggish, wich is unnacceptable.

[bgotori]

Hey yukon

What are you running it on(FireFox 1.0.1 crashing)???


Great Times Ahead!!!

Brad

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by wataru:
If you're not intersted in having a real discussion about this, please don't post. Leave the name calling at the playground.

@wataru

pot. kettle. black.

"You Cocoa zealots are really annoying." - wataru

[Diggory Laycock]

Originally posted by Millennium:
...the Web is not, and never will be, a Mac-only medium. Like it or not, the Web has its own user-interface conventions, and we would do well to be literate in them and handle them just as well as our own.

Sure - I totally agree with that - but you are missing the point - the guy was talking about the behaviour of the app that displays the web - not the behaviour of the web itself.

An application can be consistent with the Mac OS, without altering the content it is displaying.

e.g. AppleScript support, Allowing Command-M to minimise windows - using aqua widgets (outside the webview, e.g. in the download window) etc.. etc...

[cpac]

The Web itself may not be mac or windows, but the applications we use to view it certainly are.

No I'm not talking about form elements (though I happen to prefer aqua widgets), what I'm talking about it proper toolbars, preferences, integration with other system resources, etc.

That's (one of) the reasons I prefer OmniWeb. It feels, looks, and runs like a Mac app. It's also the reason I prefer Camino to Firefox.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
Sure - I totally agree with that - but you are missing the point - the guy was talking about the behaviour of the app that displays the web - not the behaviour of the web itself.

An application can be consistent with the Mac OS, without altering the content it is displaying.

e.g. AppleScript support, Allowing Command-M to minimise windows - using aqua widgets (outside the webview, e.g. in the download window) etc.. etc...

Precisely

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by cpac:
The Web itself may not be mac or windows, but the applications we use to view it certainly are.

No I'm not talking about form elements (though I happen to prefer aqua widgets), what I'm talking about it proper toolbars, preferences, integration with other system resources, etc.

That's (one of) the reasons I prefer OmniWeb. It feels, looks, and runs like a Mac app. It's also the reason I prefer Camino to Firefox.

Exactly

Diggory Laycock and cpac - I'd add you to my respected user list if there was one!

[hotani]

I really like Firefox on PC. I'm using it right now actually (no macs at work *sigh*). However, the mac port is broken on my machine - it has a hard time launching, sometimes will bounce, disappear, reappear then open. When it opens, there is only one item in the menu bar. I have to click over to another app, then back to FF to see all the menu items.

Then there is the field issue, sometimes a field (like the address bar - DOH!) won't accept text. Can't even get the curser to display in there. Firefox is broken in so many ways on my machine. I seem to be the only one with this problem, haven't found anyone else that experiences it. Could be a conflict with another app, but I haven't tried all the possibilities yet.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a *working* firefox on Mac. It is my favorite browser, and with some *luxury* features such as spellcheck and a pretty face it would earn a special place on my machine as The Default Browser. Until then I will primarily use Safari, with some Camino mixed in from time to time.

[monkeybrain]

Yep cpac and Diggory Laycock are exactly right - the point is to make the web application as consistent with what people are used to as possible. Of course with Apple using bizarre logic like brushed metal metal for the Finder this is hard, but Camino is the right direction.

Oh and for people who might find Camino slower than whatever browser, go along to the camino forum and try one of the processor specific versions: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=12

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:

Finally, a crappy carbon port has everything to do with IE. On OS 9 it was a damn fine browser but in OS X it is a crappy carbon port. As opposed to a good carbon port. Perhaps English isn't your fort�.

Really? I always thought it was just old. On OS 9 systems I use, I use Mozilla and iCab mostly because IE 5 is so old.

[David Lee]

For me, the arguments about Firefox 1.0.1 are irrevelant, the application crashes on launch! I have tried all the usual stuff- trowing out old application support/Firefox folder etc. and re-downloading the dmg file. No go. It crashes on my G4 Tower with a Gigadesigns 800/2MB cache and on my iBook 933 G4.

[wataru]

Originally posted by ryaxnb:
Really? I always thought it was just old. On OS 9 systems I use, I use Mozilla and iCab mostly because IE 5 is so old.

Twilly Spree doesn't know what he's talking about. Pay no attention.

Originally posted by David Lee:
For me, the arguments about Firefox 1.0.1 are irrevelant, the application crashes on launch! I have tried all the usual stuff- trowing out old application support/Firefox folder etc. and re-downloading the dmg file. No go. It crashes on my G4 Tower with a Gigadesigns 800/2MB cache and on my iBook 933 G4.

Did 1.0 crash for you? Have you tried making a fresh user to test with?

[Gamoe]

Originally posted by hotani:
I seem to be the only one with this problem, haven't found anyone else that experiences it. Could be a conflict with another app, but I haven't tried all the possibilities yet.

No, no you aren't. I, too have experienced these problems with FireFox. It shows only one or two menu bars, does not allow address field input or simply will not go to the address... and I don't have too many 3rd-party apps that I can think of which could conflict in these ways.

However, I seem to have gotten it to work pretty stably. I remember trying to run Mozilla on my Power Mac 8600 under Mac OS 9, and it was an absolutely horrible experience. Actually, it was like when FireFox misbehaves now, but even worse, and it was much much slower (I guess it needed much more juice than the G3 upgraded 8600 could give it), and under an unprotected OS... well, it could bring the whole thing down. But, apart from the OS and hardware advances, I think Mozilla has improved, though they still have a way to go, at least as far as the Mac version is concerned.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a *working* firefox on Mac. It is my favorite browser, and with some *luxury* features such as spellcheck and a pretty face it would earn a special place on my machine as The Default Browser. Until then I will primarily use Safari, with some Camino mixed in from time to time.

We may never get a great default Mac theme (or we may, hopefully), but if you look... you may find a good Mac theme-- your "pretty face". You could try the theme Deimos suggested (I certainly will!). Also, although I agree that it would be nice if FireFox used system services, there is a pretty good spell checking extension for FireFox called Spellbound.

I like Safari. It has the Apple blessing-- is integrated into the system, and will continue to receive support from Apple, but Apple also likes to limit things sometimes. Apple does a good job at simplifying things, but sometimes this takes options away. And I think this is where FireFox and other third party, particularly open source, software comes in.

The only thing that FireFox does not have is the tight integration, but even this is of no great importance, as far as a web browser is concerned. But, FireFox has extensions and (bookmark separators!, and) other things Safari lacks.

I am just glad, that, although we could use improvement on all, there are serious alternatives out there. I remember when an aging Netscape was the only real alternative out there. Now there's Safari, Mozilla, FireFox, Camino, and a few others.

I alternate between Safari and FireFox. I like all the goodies of Safari, but I don't like the brushed metal either, and I don't understand why little basic things such as separators (to put a line between folders and bookmarks) are missing. That one particularly really bothers me. Also, there are things Safari cannot render, which FireFox can.

Edit: Added a few paragraphs, moved one around.

[CaptainHaddock]

" It shows only one or two menu bars, does not allow address field input or simply will not go to the address."

I too have had this problem. I've only used Firefox a few times on my Mac, and I had no end of trouble with it the other day when I needed it for a certain site. One of the problems was being unable to type into the address bar. I managed to drag the text string of the url I wanted into the bar, but I still couldn't make the enter key work for accepting the URL.

The lack of a working middle-click function (for opening links in new tabs) is also a serious impediment.

So basically I avoid Firefox on the Mac, but it is the main browser on my Linux computers for now. I must say, Konqueror also works very well these days too, thanks in part to Apple's KHTML contributions. It often renders better than Firefox.

[driven]

I use Firefox on Windows and Linux. It's my favorate browsers on those platforms.

On my Mac I use Safari. I wouldn't think of changing.

It does everything I need it to do. I don't feel I'd gain anything by installing Firefox. Also: It let's me sync my bookmarks between my macs effortlessly. (via iSync). Lastly: I like the bookmark manager better in Safari. (Also: It feels faster to me ... usage wise.)

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by ryaxnb:
Really? I always thought it was just old. On OS 9 systems I use, I use Mozilla and iCab mostly because IE 5 is so old.

On OS X Internet Explorer is a crappy carbon port. IE on OS 9 is very good despite its age.

[devmage]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock

I too have had this problem. I've only used Firefox a few times on my Mac, and I had no end of trouble with it the other day when I needed it for a certain site. One of the problems was being unable to type into the address bar. I managed to drag the text string of the url I wanted into the bar, but I still couldn't make the enter key work for accepting the URL.

Does anyone know if there is a fix for this? I've had this problem of not being able to type in the input fields of either firefox or mozilla on several macs.

[Weyland-Yutani]

I use Firefox as a backup browser for Safari. I always did like Mozilla better than FF and used it as the Safari backup, but that project is dead so FF is my backup now.

Mac look and feel is very important. Moz never had it but it had very mature features instead. Now that FF is coming of age and the Moz foundation has hired a Mac specialist to work with FF for Mac things might just be looking bright in FF's future.

Safari is still no. 1 though. I haven't really used the other browsers so no comment there.

cheers

W-Y

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by wataru

1. Get a clue before calling others zealots or insulting their English.

2. You "can't be bothered" because you are lazy. Just admit it. You aren't interested in the best browsing experience, you're interested in the one that requires you to think the least. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

3. Actually reading the thread would have given you valuable information, like very attractive themes for Firefox, and a way to make the widgets prettier. But you "can't be bothered" to read the thread either, can you?

4. IE being Carbon has nothing to do with it being crappy. Please get a clue before opening your mouth on this subject. You're just making yourself look foolish.

PS. Who needs an Aqua interface or native widgets when you've got this masterpiece of UI engineering?

1. You are a zealot. Point to the word with command-option-D held down. Oh wait, you can't.

2. "Best" is relative. Your best is obviously not the same as mine and others'.

3. I can't speak for him, but I've tried Firefox with these themes, and yet for me these compensations still don't bring it close to Safari.

4. True, the carbon/cocoa argument is old and tired. A carbon app can be just as good as a cocoa app; however, cocoa apps are more likely to integrate well with the OS.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

1. You are a zealot. Point to the word with command-option-D held

Dude, you just responded to a 7 month old post.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Dude, you just responded to a 7 month old post.

And yet he's still a zealot.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

And yet he's still a zealot.

Well this is actually quite an interesting thought.. I mean 7 months ago he was clearly a zealot, but is he *still* a zealot today?

**paging wataru**

(my bet is on "yes he still is a zealot")

cheers

W-Y

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Well this is actually quite an interesting thought.. I mean 7 months ago he was clearly a zealot, but is he *still* a zealot today?

**paging wataru**

(my bet is on "yes he still is a zealot")

cheers

W-Y

Earlier this month:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=269129

Anyways, check his personal site out if you want to know why he's so sensitive.