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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Dirtbags vandalize Grave sites of Veterans.

Dirtbags vandalize Grave sites of Veterans.
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typoon
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May 29, 2007, 02:07 PM
 
ORCAS ISLAND, Wash. — Vandals burned dozens of small American flags that decorated veterans' graves for Memorial Day and replaced many of them with hand-drawn swastikas, authorities said Monday.

Forty-six flag standards were found empty and another 33 flags were in charred tatters Sunday in the cemetery, authorities said. Swastikas drawn on paper appeared where 14 of the flags had been.

Members of the American Legion on this island off Washington's northwest coast replaced the burned flags with new ones Sunday afternoon.

The vandals struck again on Memorial Day after a guard left at dawn, the San Juan County sheriff's office said. This time, the vandals left 33 of the hand-drawn swastikas.

"This is not an act of free speech. This is a crime," Sheriff Bill Cumming said in a statement released Monday afternoon.

Sheriff's department officials declined to comment further on Monday.
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This really make me angry that dirtbags would do something like this on memorial day. If it wasn't for those Soldiers whose grave sites they vadalized THEY wouldn't have had their "freedom" to do this.

If/when found they should be made to Fight in Iraq. Too bad we couldn't string them up and give them a public beating.
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design219
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May 29, 2007, 02:56 PM
 
They do not have "freedom" to do this. What they did was a crime, and if caught, they will be arrested. There is a difference between vandalism and free speech.

There will always be dirtbags, unforunatly.
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Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 02:58 PM
 
Wow, WTF?
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 03:04 PM
 
Damn lefties.
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Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 03:06 PM
 
Just put it in your sig and be done with it.
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 03:12 PM
 
I like boobies.
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Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 03:14 PM
 
There's room for a line of text yet.
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 03:17 PM
 
Not if you have style there isn't.
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Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 03:20 PM
 
So you're good to go then
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 03:22 PM
 
Dammit hippie, you have me at a loss.
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besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 03:56 PM
 
Doofy: you're a hippy.
     
Big Mac
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May 29, 2007, 04:05 PM
 
Scum bags, the lot of them. Desecration of a grave is one of the lowest acts a human being is capable of.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Dammit hippie, you have me at a loss.
Considering I'm not a hippy, I guess I do.
     
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May 29, 2007, 04:15 PM
 
Maybe it was that evil church guy who hates purdy much everybody.

Rightwing scumbags!!!
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 04:21 PM
 
Doofy is a vegetarian too.

Hippy.
     
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May 29, 2007, 04:28 PM
 
It's hippie!!! He's a damn hippie!!!

Derived from the word 'hipster'.
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 04:31 PM
 
Let's clear one thing up.

Hippie = person given to wearing sandals and tie-dye shirts.

Hippy = adjective describing person with calf-bearing hips.

-------------------

Right then, if this wasn't the work of the local anti-war leftie scumbags, who did it?
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Dakarʒ
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May 29, 2007, 04:33 PM
 
Either spelling is acceptable.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
Well, Doofy is a Hippie, and his hips probably suck.
     
Doofy
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May 29, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
What's the kitchen-crapper going on about? I blocked his inane drivel months ago.
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May 29, 2007, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Right then, if this wasn't the work of the local anti-war leftie scumbags, who did it?
Drunk teenagers who have no political leanings, just a desire to **** with the system/be a PITA/get on the news.
     
kmkkid
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May 29, 2007, 05:11 PM
 
Veterans grave sites in my town get desecrated every year around halloween. They kick over gravestones and/or smash them to pieces. I doubt it's so much "lefties" as it is drunken teens out to cause some trouble on devils night, cause that's the "cool" thing to do. In any case, it's disgusting to disturb anyones grave site, veteran or not.
     
peeb
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May 29, 2007, 05:13 PM
 
Extremely unlikely that 'lefties' are responsible for scrawling swastikas.
     
typoon  (op)
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May 29, 2007, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
They do not have "freedom" to do this. What they did was a crime, and if caught, they will be arrested. There is a difference between vandalism and free speech.

There will always be dirtbags, unforunatly.
I totally agree that it's a crime. My statement was more to say that those soldiers graves they vandalized gave their lives so that they had the "freedom" of being the dirtbags they are. It's totally wrong for them to do and they should be prosecuted for what they did. I still think they should be sent to Iraq to atone for their vandalism.
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besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
What's the kitchen-crapper going on about? I blocked his inane drivel months ago.
I'm blocking you too, because I like to block hippies.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
I totally agree that it's a crime. My statement was more to say that those soldiers graves they vandalized gave their lives so that they had the "freedom" of being the dirtbags they are. It's totally wrong for them to do and they should be prosecuted for what they did. I still think they should be sent to Iraq to atone for their vandalism.
If these people spray painted "God bless this country" on these tombs, would you be equally angry? Is it the act of vandalism that angers you, or what their actions to these symbols represent?

If the latter, do you think that people that hold KKK rallies should be arrested too?
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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May 29, 2007, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If these people spray painted "God bless this country" on these tombs, would you be equally angry? Is it the act of vandalism that angers you, or what their actions to these symbols represent?
Seriously, WTF kind of dumb question is that? Desecrating someone's grave- especially vile that they are graves of soldiers- isn't defined by what symbol or words you write. Scrawling ANYTHING on someone's grave is desecration.

If the latter, do you think that people that hold KKK rallies should be arrested too?
Has nothing to do with anything. If the KKK or anyone else vandalize property, then they should be arrested.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Seriously, WTF kind of dumb question is that? Desecrating someone's grave- especially vile that they are graves of soldiers- isn't defined by what symbol or words you write. Scrawling ANYTHING on someone's grave is desecration.


Has nothing to do with anything. If the KKK or anyone else vandalize property, then they should be arrested.

Please control yourself, I did not say that it was not desecration. I'm not defending it. Please don't make assumptions as to what I'm trying to imply, they were just questions.

If somebody spray painted "Go Yankees" on the tomb of some solider that died in 1800, would you feel as strongly?
     
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May 29, 2007, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
There's room for a line of text yet.
With that picture, who would read it?
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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May 29, 2007, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If somebody spray painted "Go Yankees" on the tomb of some solider that died in 1800, would you feel as strongly?
Another dumb question.

I tell you what, go paint something you think "no one will fill strongly about" on some veteran's graves in front of a group of veterans. After you recover from your extended hospital stay, you'll have the answer to your dumb question.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Another dumb question.

I tell you what, go paint something you think "no one will fill strongly about" on some veteran's graves in front of a group of veterans. After you recover from your extended hospital stay, you'll have the answer to your dumb question.

Crash: please control yourself, you are projecting implications here.

They are just questions with a particular reasoning in mind that you are falsely jumping to conclusions over. Relax, tiger!
     
peeb
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May 29, 2007, 06:55 PM
 
It's nothing to do with what is written, or on whose grave. Grave vandalism is a crime, and a particularly upsetting one.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
It's nothing to do with what is written, or on whose grave. Grave vandalism is a crime, and a particularly upsetting one.
Understood, but why is it particularly upsetting, in general?
     
peeb
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May 29, 2007, 07:08 PM
 
Because it is an affront to the memory of the dead, not just vandalism of property, but vandalism of a symbolic memorial, and so, in some peoples minds, their memory itself.
     
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May 29, 2007, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Understood, but why is it particularly upsetting, in general?
It's posts like this from you that are a clear indication that you don't relate well to people.

How can you not understand how desecrating someone's grave could upset someone?
     
goMac
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May 29, 2007, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Understood, but why is it particularly upsetting, in general?
Think about it this way. Someone paid for a persons gravestone, normally their family. Would you be upset if someone sprayed a swastika on your car?

Or how about this. For a lot of people, the closest thing they have to a dead relative is the gravestone. Would you be upset if someone sprayed a swastika on your mother?

I'm not sure why you don't get this.
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Uncle Skeleton
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May 29, 2007, 08:37 PM
 
Vandalizing a grave is like punching a baby, or a retard. There's no dignity in bullying someone who can't fight back because they're dead. If you disagree with them, your chance to act on it is while they're still alive.

However...
If it wasn't for those Soldiers whose grave sites they vadalized THEY wouldn't have had their "freedom" to do this.
No. A country needs some military, with some soldiers. But no country needs as much military as the US has. The military is overgrown, it's a cancer on this country, eating it from the inside out. It needs paring down, and the majority of the military we have today is not required to protect our "freedom" to be dirtbags or any other way we choose to be; in fact it inhibits our freedoms.
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; May 29, 2007 at 08:44 PM. )
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 08:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Think about it this way. Someone paid for a persons gravestone, normally their family. Would you be upset if someone sprayed a swastika on your car?

Or how about this. For a lot of people, the closest thing they have to a dead relative is the gravestone. Would you be upset if someone sprayed a swastika on your mother?

I'm not sure why you don't get this.

I get it, my question was a general one.

Never mind.
     
besson3c
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May 29, 2007, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
No. A country needs some military, with some soldiers. But no country needs as much military as the US has. The military is overgrown, it's a cancer on this country, eating it from the inside out. It needs paring down, and the majority of the military we have today is not required to protect our "freedom" to be dirtbags or any other way we choose to be; in fact it inhibits our freedoms.
Since the crazy big size of our military industrial complex is not really needed for defense, do you buy into the argument that investing in our military benefits the economy as a whole?

I do, but I also often think that that money could be invested in other, better ways.
     
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May 29, 2007, 10:50 PM
 
No, of course it doesn't. On the most basic level, arms are consumption, not investment.
( Last edited by peeb; May 30, 2007 at 02:11 AM. )
     
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Jun 3, 2007, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Extremely unlikely that 'lefties' are responsible for scrawling swastikas.
In replace of the flag? Not surprised at all. The Left has been calling America naziland since Bush took over. What are you talking ab00t..
     
Kevin
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Jun 3, 2007, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Please control yourself,
Please stop projecting that people are out of control in an attempt to belittle them in a conversation. That is being intellectually dishonest.

If your rant is just, you wouldn't have to revert to such shenanigans.
     
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Jun 3, 2007, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Since the crazy big size of our military industrial complex is not really needed for defense
Canada has a crazy big military?
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Understood, but why is it particularly upsetting, in general?
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
It's posts like this from you that are a clear indication that you don't relate well to people.

How can you not understand how desecrating someone's grave could upset someone?
Umm, because not every culture holds the same values regarding the sanctity of grave-sites as those of us raised/living in a Judeo-Christian culture.

If you are Buddhist then reverentially treating someone's grave-site would be contradictory to the key Buddhist teaching regarding attachment to material objects. And even the Japanese and Chinese, who have a great cultural practice of ancestor worship/reverence, celebrate that reverence at temples and shrines not at individual grave-sites. Then there is the Hindu sect that leaves their bodies lying out so that they can be scavenged by vultures; They want to disassociate totally from any attachment to their bodily selves. Heck, even among some adherents in the Judeo-Christian faiths treating grave-sites as sanctified spaces is frowned upon. Both the Amish and Mennonite religions eschew major death/burial ceremonies because death is not something to be feared, but rather welcomed, as it brings the deceased into union with God.

Anyway, to make a long story short, it is quite possible to question "why" grave-site desecration is such an emotional issue. Because, not everyone holds the same beliefs about the value/significance/sanctity of grave-sites.
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Jun 4, 2007, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Umm, because not every culture holds the same values regarding the sanctity of grave-sites as those of us raised/living in a Judeo-Christian culture.

If you are Buddhist then reverentially treating someone's grave-site would be contradictory to the key Buddhist teaching regarding attachment to material objects. And even the Japanese and Chinese, who have a great cultural practice of ancestor worship/reverence, celebrate that reverence at temples and shrines not at individual grave-sites. Then there is the Hindu sect that leaves their bodies lying out so that they can be scavenged by vultures; They want to disassociate totally from any attachment to their bodily selves.
Either you are very ignorant about besson3c, or you are trolling.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Heck, even among some adherents in the Judeo-Christian faiths treating grave-sites as sanctified spaces is frowned upon. Both the Amish and Mennonite religions eschew major death/burial ceremonies because death is not something to be feared, but rather welcomed, as it brings the deceased into union with God.
I think of the body as a shell as well. I welcome death as a release. But I still respect someone's memory and respect someone else's feelings about it.
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Anyway, to make a long story short, it is quite possible to question "why" grave-site desecration is such an emotional issue. Because, not everyone holds the same beliefs about the value/significance/sanctity of grave-sites.
Again, you are ignorant or trolling.
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Either you are very ignorant about besson3c, or you are trolling.
Not trolling but thanks for the ad hominem attack.

Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
I think of the body as a shell as well. I welcome death as a release. But I still respect someone's memory and respect someone else's feelings about it.
Again, not everyone else will feel the same way about this as you do. And that was my point. You took an assumption (reverence for grave-sites) and assumed it was universal and used that presumption about universality to question besson3c. I was pointing out your act of making an assumption about something being universal and showing you examples where your assumption was not universal. Hence, making it not universal like you presumed, thus making your assumptions logically invalid, and making your question towards besson3c logically invalid as well.

Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Again, you are ignorant or trolling.
Again, not trolling but thanks for the ad hominem attack.
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Jun 4, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Umm, because not every culture holds the same values regarding the sanctity of grave-sites as those of us raised/living in a Judeo-Christian culture.
If you are Buddhist then reverentially treating someone's grave-site would be contradictory to the key Buddhist teaching regarding attachment to material objects.
Ahh, yes, that explains it. The swastika is a sacred symbol in Buddhism, so it must have been Buddhist monks, making a theological point about the reverence of material symbols! How stupid of us to think that it was grave vandals.
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
Vandals burned dozens of small American flags that decorated veterans' graves for Memorial Day and replaced many of them with hand-drawn swastikas...
Nazi's must be on a very tight budget.
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Graviton View Post
Nazi's must be on a very tight budget.
There appears to be some confusion here.

I took this action as the folks who did the vandalising suggesting that the US military was a bunch of nazis. Meaning they're lefties, since lefties are the only people who do that kind of thing.

And if this is indeed the case, then of course they're on a tight budget. That's 'coz they sit around all day whining about capitalism instead of working.
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dcmacdaddy
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Jun 4, 2007, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Ahh, yes, that explains it. The swastika is a sacred symbol in Buddhism, so it must have been Buddhist monks, making a theological point about the reverence of material symbols! How stupid of us to think that it was grave vandals.
Umm, did you not read the whole thread? What I was pointing out is NOT that the grave-site vandalism is acceptable, or in any way justified. Rather, I was pointing out errors in Railroader's logical assumptions when he questioned beson3c's question. Since you appear to have not read the whole thread I will summarize for you below the part of the discussion that pertains to you.
  1. Besson3c questions why grave-site vandalism is so upsetting. In de-constructing this argument he gets to the question of why there is such reverence/sanctity towards burial practices in this country.
  2. Railroader questions besson3c's questioning with an exclamation as to how could he not undertand people's reverence/sanctity towards burial practices.
  3. I pointed out to Railroader that his questioning of besson3c was based on an assumption of universality that, in fact, was not universal. (Not all cultures, even within this country, have the same ideas about death/burial practices. So, to assume so is logically incorrect.)
  4. In pointing out examples to Railroader where his assumption of universality was wrong I mentioned Buddhists (who happen to use a swastika symbol to represent certain beliefs).
So, now that i have explained the logic of our discussion here for you, I hope you understand that I was not justifying the actions in any way. I was merely pointing out the logical errors in Railroader's questioning of besson3c.
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Jun 4, 2007 at 12:56 PM. Reason: changed "Kilbey" to "Railroader in two places.)
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