[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Try getting a car loan nowadays. Impossible if your credit score is under 700.

There's yer problem, right there.

If nobody had ever been allowed to acquire a car loan, the whole economy would be in much better shape.

Time to pay the piper.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Nope, that title belongs to the Kia Sportage.

Careful. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Sportage outsells most Chrysler models.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

A loan is only repaid if the recipient can pay it back. People such as OldManMac and others say that it's burnt money, because they expect that Chrysler goes tits up soon. Plain and simple.

I also wouldn't be so naïve and think that `Japanese' or other foreign companies `cannot build trucks suitable to farmers and construction businesses,' they already have. Be it Mercedes, VW, Toyota or other Japanese manufacturers, all that needs to be done is put it to market (if it hasn't already, see Dodge's Sprinter, for example). Not too long ago, some people on this board have claimed that Japanese companies cannot make trucks as popular as `true American trucks.' The statistics have proven them wrong.

Popular, yes. Capable? No way. And Mercedes makes the Sprinter. And looking back on history, Chrysler already repaid one loan, years early if I remember correctly. So yes, I can bet that the TARP money to the auto industry will be repaid.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's yer problem, right there.

If nobody had ever been allowed to acquire a car loan, the whole economy would be in much better shape.

Time to pay the piper.

Do you people not read the news? The banks stopped lending money. For anything. And then GM got some of the TARP money and said on the news they can start lending money to people with credit scores under 700. It hasn't always been like that. I don't have a credit score over 700 yet I have a new car. I bought it months ago before it kept getting worse and worse.

And if banks hadn't stopped lending money, the economy wouldn't be in such bad shape.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Popular, yes. Capable? No way. And Mercedes makes the Sprinter.

If they're in use in many other countries all over the world just for the same purpose, say in construction, what makes you think they won't work in the US?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Do you people not read the news? The banks stopped lending money. For anything. And then GM got some of the TARP money and said on the news they can start lending money to people with credit scores under 700. It hasn't always been like that. I don't have a credit score over 700 yet I have a new car. I bought it months ago before it kept getting worse and worse.

And if banks hadn't stopped lending money, the economy wouldn't be in such bad shape.

Now read carefully. I'll go slow.

If the economy hadn't come to rely on people having loans for everything in the first place, the banks withdrawing loan facilities would have no affect whatsoever. Therefore, the economy wouldn't be in a mess.

Also, if nobody ever had car loans, the whole of your car manufacturing industry would be on a different model... ...one geared to quality, long-lasting product rather than the "shift more and more and more crappy new boxes" model it's on now.

I don't have a credit score over 700 (whatever that means) either. I pay cash. For everything.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

If they're in use in many other countries all over the world just for the same purpose, say in construction, what makes you think they won't work in the US?

Wood is much heavier than stone, so obviously a Transit tipper wouldn't suit US house builders like it does here in Europe.

[ctt1wbw]

I'm not really talking about the Sprinter, it's not a truck. It's a van. And the Sprinter is freakin everywhere in the US. Fedex, UPS, ambulances, you name it. Just not farms and stuff like that.

This forum is talking primarily Japanese cars and trucks and how they are so much better than US trucks, which I'm still trying to figure out. Nobody can point to a Japanese truck that can outperform/haul/tow/load what have you something like a Dodge/Ford/Chevy quad cab one ton with a 6 or 7 liter diesel with a fifth wheel that people use to tow RVs or farmers use to tow cattle or pigs or chickens or construction crews or lawn care businesses use to tow the flat bed with their gear... Ever see the Toyota or Honda truck on the highway with something like that? Nope.

Americans believe whatever they read from the US car magazines and the news media.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

This forum is talking primarily Japanese cars and trucks and how they are so much better than US trucks, which I'm still trying to figure out. Nobody can point to a Japanese truck that can outperform/haul/tow/load what have you something like a Dodge/Ford/Chevy quad cab one ton with a 6 or 7 liter diesel with a fifth wheel that people use to tow RVs or farmers use to tow cattle or pigs or chickens or construction crews or lawn care businesses use to tow the flat bed with their gear... Ever see the Toyota or Honda truck on the highway with something like that? Nope.

Ummm. The farmers around here all use Hiluxes or Mitsi L200s to pull their cows, pigs and chickens around. Granted, our cows, pigs and chickens generally haven't been pumped silly with growth hormones so probably don't weigh the same as US cows, pigs and chickens. But still.

Bloke who cuts my lawn (all 2 acres of it) has a Isuzu (read: cheap Hilux) and somehow manages to bring all his gear with him. Odd.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm not really talking about the Sprinter, it's not a truck. It's a van.

You can get the sprinter also with a truck bed. Or without a truck bed and just and axle at the rear. With and without a crew cab. Or as a people carrier, etc. etc. They've had pictures of that in one of the links I've provided.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

This forum is talking primarily Japanese cars and trucks and how they are so much better than US trucks, which I'm still trying to figure out.

Your claim was different: you don't think that Japanese trucks can do the same job. Toyota has had the Hilux for years, for example. These puppies can take quite a beating. Ditto for Mitsubishi's L-series.

But in other parts of the world, people don't necessarily insist on using their work gear as their main mean of transportation. Their truck doesn't have to be able to win a drag race, simply transport whatever cargo you have from A to B.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Ever see the Toyota or Honda truck on the highway with something like that? Nope.

I've never seen that on an American highway either, you're right. But in other parts of the world, I've seen plenty of them.

[ctt1wbw]

Well, I guess I stand corrected. European and Japanese trucks are better.

[ctt1wbw]

Oreo, did I mention a drag race somewhere? I didn't think so. Quit putting words into my posts. For the sake of argument, American cars suck. Japanese cars and trucks are The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread. The Kia Sportage is the best SUV ever made by human hands and the Honda Ridgeline is the best truck made by human hands, in the history of civilization. No other truck can do the job of the Ridgeline or the Sprinter.

[ctt1wbw]

Oh, and why brag about the Sprinter? Isn't that a vehicle made by DiamlerChrysler? And that company is going to fail because they make **** cars, right? So isn't the Sprinter a piece of **** by proxy?

[Dakar V]

Jesus, everything doesn't have to be so black and white.

[Laminar]

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Oh, and why brag about the Sprinter? Isn't that a vehicle made by DiamlerChrysler?

No such company.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Oh, and why brag about the Sprinter? Isn't that a vehicle made by DiamlerChrysler?

DaimlerWho?


And Jeez, can you PLEASE quit making this into a personal issue?

This is about the fact that Chrysler is a dead company, and that whatever money is pumped into that company, "loan" or not, is LOST because the dead don't repay their loans.

And there are plenty of companies who will more than fill whatever void you think Chrysler might leave when it's gone.

So deflate your wounded ego and pull up your pants, man.

You're scaring the children.

[ctt1wbw]

I'm not making it in to a personal thing. For the life of me, you people can't understand that sales are down for all auto groups because of the lending freeze. It has nothing to do with quality. And Chrysler isn't dead. Ford isn't dead, GM isn't dead. It confounds me why people see a logo and say it's a better car just because of the logo...

[Laminar]

Lost cause.

[Doofy]

He's right. Chrysler isn't dead. And won't die either.
The sheer force of Doof's willpower will keep them afloat (at least until I've had time to grab a couple of spare engines).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm not making it in to a personal thing. For the life of me, you people can't understand that sales are down for all auto groups because of the lending freeze. It has nothing to do with quality. And Chrysler isn't dead. Ford isn't dead, GM isn't dead. It confounds me why people see a logo and say it's a better car just because of the logo...

a) Car sales are down all over the world.

b) Chrysler IS dying - it will be the first to go. NOT because their cars are crappier or even less marketable than Ford's or GM's (none of the US carmakers saw the writing on the wall in the last fifteen years), but simply because it's in the worst shape of the big three.

Quality is only incidental, but largely irrelevant to this topic.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Now read carefully. I'll go slow.

If the economy hadn't come to rely on people having loans for everything in the first place, the banks withdrawing loan facilities would have no affect whatsoever. Therefore, the economy wouldn't be in a mess.

Also, if nobody ever had car loans, the whole of your car manufacturing industry would be on a different model... ...one geared to quality, long-lasting product rather than the "shift more and more and more crappy new boxes" model it's on now.

I don't have a credit score over 700 (whatever that means) either. I pay cash. For everything.

Okay, now read carefully... VERY FEW people have the money to pay cash for a house or a car. It's a simple fact. Now if there had never been loans for houses and cars, there would not be a housing market or a car market, because no one would be able to purchase them. Therefore, no jobs in construction or the auto industry, therefore no giant economy in this country. It's very simple. You can not pay cash for everything. I've only know ONE person who paid cash for a car, and it was a cheap car and he only was able to save the money over time because he went to sea a lot. It's easy out to sea, because you got nothing to spend money on. And when he was on land, he took the bus. Not every person can live like that. People HAVE to be able to get loans for big ticket items, otherwise they can't purchase big ticket items, and the items in those markets start to dry up, slowing down those markets. Pretty simple concept.

I'm sorry that I am not as rich as you, but there are more of us than there are of you who can't pay cash for everything.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Lost cause.

I know. You're simply smarter than me. I know nothing of the world.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

a) Car sales are down all over the world.

b) Chrysler IS dying - it will be the first to go. NOT because their cars are crappier or even less marketable than Ford's or GM's (none of the US carmakers saw the writing on the wall in the last fifteen years), but simply because it's in the worst shape of the big three.

Quality is only incidental, but largely irrelevant to this topic.

Every single thread about US cars has revolved in the supposed piss poor quality of US cars. I know, I've seen most of them. And all it takes is for the banks to start lending money again, so us not-so-well-off people can purchase them.

[Laminar]

No, it takes people saving money. The average car payment is about $460 per month. Save that up for 10 months and you can pick up a 10-year-old car that will get you to and from work just fine. Do it for another ten months, and you can have an $8000 car that's a bit nicer. Do it again, and you have a $12,000 car. Again, and you can have a brand new, reliable, efficient car that's completely paid off. Easy, huh?

[Laminar]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1389/satur...dont-buy-stuff

[nonhuman]

Amazingly it used to be considered shameful to have to get a mortgage in order to buy a house...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

People HAVE to be able to get loans for big ticket items, otherwise they can't purchase big ticket items, and the items in those markets start to dry up, slowing down those markets.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You need those markets to slow down - they should be much slower than they actually are. The market speed is the problem (if everyone was driving around in 20 year-old pickups, there'd be no social pressure to buy a 2009 2010 model in order to keep up with the Jonses).

(Which is basically what Lammy is saying a couple of posts up. Damn my having to grab pizza out of the oven!)

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

No, it takes people saving money. The average car payment is about $460 per month. Save that up for 10 months and you can pick up a 10-year-old car that will get you to and from work just fine. Do it for another ten months, and you can have an $8000 car that's a bit nicer. Do it again, and you have a $12,000 car. Again, and you can have a brand new, reliable, efficient car that's completely paid off. Easy, huh?

Not to mention, in terms of investment, brand new cars are awful – you lose 20% of its value just driving it off the lot.

Its just another aspect of the entitlement attitude that pervades our society. A *brand* new car is a luxury. You can save yourself thousands (say the price of a brand new Mac) just by buying one thats just a few years old.

[ctt1wbw]

A ten year old car? Anyone can save for a 10 year old car. You don't get bank loans for a 10 year old car, at least not an auto loan. But I'm sure you are aware of that. I'm talking about new cars. That's what banks lend money for the most. And in order to save money like you're talking about, you need a job. And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm talking about new cars. That's what banks lend money for the most. And in order to save money like you're talking about, you need a job. And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

Most jobs don't require a brand new car to drive to with.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

A ten year old car? Anyone can save for a 10 year old car. You don't get bank loans for a 10 year old car, at least not an auto loan. But I'm sure you are aware of that. I'm talking about new cars. That's what banks lend money for the most. And in order to save money like you're talking about, you need a job. And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

Why are you talking about new cars? There's almost no reason whatsoever for anyone to ever buy a new car. Buy the car you can best afford that best suits your needs. If you happen to live in a city, as I do, there's a good chance that you don't need a car at all, as I don't.

If people had been acting responsibly for the past several decades instead of wracking up massive debt in order to always have the latest and greatest of everything our economy would certainly be much small, but it would also certainly be much more stable.

[ctt1wbw]

How is buying a new car part of the "entitlement attitude"? Social security and food stamps are what is generally thought of as entitlements.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Most jobs don't require a brand new car to drive to with.

Brilliant post! Did I say a brand new car? Nope, I said a car of your own. That's not even remotely similiar to a brand new car, now is it?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

A ten year old car? Anyone can save for a 10 year old car. You don't get bank loans for a 10 year old car, at least not an auto loan. But I'm sure you are aware of that. I'm talking about new cars. That's what banks lend money for the most. And in order to save money like you're talking about, you need a job. And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

Read past the third sentence.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

How is buying a new car part of the "entitlement attitude"? Social security and food stamps are what is generally thought of as entitlements.

Because there is no need whatsoever for most people to own a new car. For a very large number of people there's no need whatsoever for them to own a car at all.

The 'entitlement attitude' comes in when people feel that they need a brand new, $20,000 car, when, in actuality, a $5000 10-year old Civic would be more than sufficient for their needs.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

Push bike -> motor cycle -> car.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Brilliant post! Did I say a brand new car? Nope, I said a car of your own. That's not even remotely similiar to a brand new car, now is it?

Do you even read your own posts? The very first sentence made it clear that you were talking about new cars. In as many words even.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Why are you talking about new cars? There's almost no reason whatsoever for anyone to ever buy a new car. Buy the car you can best afford that best suits your needs. If you happen to live in a city, as I do, there's a good chance that you don't need a car at all, as I don't.

If people had been acting responsibly for the past several decades instead of wracking up massive debt in order to always have the latest and greatest of everything our economy would certainly be much small, but it would also certainly be much more stable.

Okay, here's another genius. I'm talking NEW CARS BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT BANKS ARE NOT LENDING FOR TODAY. The new car auto industry is slumping because BANKS ARE NOT LENDING MONEY FOR NEW CARS. Good God in Heaven Above people. Learn to read.

And what makes your opinion about there's no good reason to buy a new car today worthy? In this country, people don't need permission of people and their opinion on this forum to buy a new car.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Brilliant post! Did I say a brand new car? Nope, I said a car of your own. That's not even remotely similiar to a brand new car, now is it?

Hey hey hey!

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm talking about new cars.

How on earth do you expect to be taken seriously?

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Brilliant post! Did I say a brand new car? Nope, I said a car of your own. That's not even remotely similiar to a brand new car, now is it?

...

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm talking about new cars. That's what banks lend money for the most. And in order to save money like you're talking about, you need a job. And how do you get to a job reliably? Friends? Not always. The mass transit system? Not always. You need a car of your own, which takes money to buy.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Because there is no need whatsoever for most people to own a new car. For a very large number of people there's no need whatsoever for them to own a car at all.

The 'entitlement attitude' comes in when people feel that they need a brand new, $20,000 car, when, in actuality, a $5000 10-year old Civic would be more than sufficient for their needs.

Ever been on the highway? If people didn't need new cars, then there would be no used cars on the freeway. How in the hell do people get to work? 350 million people in this country take cabs and trains? And I didn't walk in to the dealer and say I'm "entitled" to a new car. I walked in and said I wanted a new car, and paid the down payment...

[Laminar]

This is why I love MacNN.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Okay, here's another genius. I'm talking NEW CARS BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT BANKS ARE NOT LENDING FOR TODAY. The new car auto industry is slumping because BANKS ARE NOT LENDING MONEY FOR NEW CARS. Good God in Heaven Above people. Learn to read.

I'm aware of that. In the last few posts the conversation has turned towards the systemic failures inherent in our economic system due to the fact that people are always buying the latest and greatest things even when they can't afford them. If people would restrict themselves to buying only what they can afford, then we wouldn't have this massive reliance on credit and we would be susceptible to death by credit freeze. Does it matter to me if I can't get a loan to buy a new car? No, because I'll just buy a used car that I can actually afford.

And what makes your opinion about there's no good reason to buy a new car today worthy? In this country, people don't need permission of people and their opinion on this forum to buy a new car.

Common sense and logic. Used cars are cheaper, on average more reliable, and better for the environment. All in all, used cars are a vastly superior value proposition to new ones. The important thing I'm trying to get at here is that for most people, it makes no economic sense to buy a new car. I'm aware that people don't need my permission to buy a new car. But they do, apparently, need the permission of the banks or else we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. In the meantime they might want to take my advice and not put themselves into massive debt from which they currently can't recover.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

This is why I love MacNN.

Seconded.

[ctt1wbw]

No one's answered my question about where used cars come from.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Ever been on the highway? If people didn't need new cars, then there would be no used cars on the freeway. How in the hell do people get to work? 350 million people in this country take cabs and trains? And I didn't walk in to the dealer and say I'm "entitled" to a new car. I walked in and said I wanted a new car, and paid the down payment...

You do realize that what you just said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, right?

You're also aware that just because a car has had a previous owner and been driven by someone other than you that it's still quite capable of taking you to work, right?

You did say that you're 'entitled' to a new car because you were willing to go into debt in order to get one when you could have gotten a perfectly serviceable used car for a price that you could actually afford. Even if you absolutely need to own a car, that does not mean that you absolutely need a brand new car. As I've already said the 'entitlement attitude' comes into play when people insist that they have to have something they don't: such as a new car, when a used car is probably a better option for them.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

I'm aware of that. In the last few posts the conversation has turned towards the systemic failures inherent in our economic system due to the fact that people are always buying the latest and greatest things even when they can't afford them. If people would restrict themselves to buying only what they can afford, then we wouldn't have this massive reliance on credit and we would be susceptible to death by credit freeze. Does it matter to me if I can't get a loan to buy a new car? No, because I'll just buy a used car that I can actually afford.



Common sense and logic. Used cars are cheaper, on average more reliable, and better for the environment. All in all, used cars are a vastly superior value proposition to new ones. The important thing I'm trying to get at here is that for most people, it makes no economic sense to buy a new car. I'm aware that people don't need my permission to buy a new car. But they do, apparently, need the permission of the banks or else we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. In the meantime they might want to take my advice and not put themselves into massive debt from which they currently can't recover.

So in other words, anyone that buys a new car is someone that can't afford it? That applies to every single person on the planet?

The primary reason that we are in the mess that we are in now is because banks won't lend money. Understand this simple fact.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

No one's answered my question about where used cars come from.

That's because you're being obtuse, either intentionally or otherwise. If it's intentional, then why should we bother entertaining your moronic question? If it's unintentional, then why should we bother entertaining your moronic question?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

No one's answered my question about where used cars come from.

Over here, they come mostly from people who can afford to buy a new car.