[ltitle]

Still alot of speculation out there about dual processor powerbooks coming soon, perhaps at the Macworld NY. While we're all still waiting for combo drives, faster processor, better graphic card with much more VRAM etc ... what is the likelihood that a 2 processor machine will be anounced in July or September. So far, I can get by with wallstreet (I am not a gamer) and would like to wait for a dual processor powerbook before replacing the aged wallstreet.

[Kozmik]

2 processors in a laptop is not smart. You'd need to bulk up the laptop with more cooling equipment to accomplish this feat, and I don't think Apple will do that, as it would go beyond the 1-inch very light form factor that the current PowerBooks have. You'll see a 600MHz PowerBook, with the NVIDIA chipset, and a combo drive at MacWorld. No more than one processor per PowerBook.

[Mac Guru]

Dual G4 laptop = big 'ol hunka titanium bull crap

Not gonna happen... too hot, too big, too stupid.

Save it for the towers.

Mac Guru

Here is one person's view picked up on ogrady:


It is far too soon for Apple to go all G4 with the Mac product line, especially in light of the iBook Dual USB's recent
announcement and the power still remaining to be eked out of the IBM 750CXi (G3) processor. With that in mind, here is one
reader's prediction for The Big Dance in two weeks. Take a deep breath and click the link below... you have been warned.

The Dual USB iBook is just a decoy. Son of Pismo is the real thing. It will be a 14-inch G4 with all the
advantages of the iBook plus a PC card slot in an enclosure the same style as the iBook but with metallic-like
plastics (like the new towers) in probably three colors: aluminum, dark aluminum and anodized dark blue (no
idea what the Apple logo color will be).

As for the dual G4 TiBook, the only problem that was left to resolve was the heating - but it may have been
resolve by now. Prototypes have been around at the same time as the single G4 TiBook was being developed.

As for desktops and the new iMac, everyone is trying to demonstrate that an iMac with a 15-inch flat panel
display is still too costly to market. Think about these points:

1. Apple already as a facility (or a sub contractor) manufacturing 15-inch flat panel displays for them. With
the launch of the 17-inch, who will want those 15-inch? Steve is not crazy (really). 15-inch displays are there
and already in production. Plus, they will be cheaper for Apple to buy, they will sell more of them in iMacs
than stand alone monitors.

2. G4 cube is EOL (end-of-lifed). That computer is a small wonder! Its only flaw was its price! If it wasn't for
that, it would have probably already replaced the iMac. Again, its ready to be produce, Steve will not let that go,
the innards of the cube will be re-used in the new iMac. Again, they will be cheaper for Apple to buy, they will
sell more of them in iMacs than Cubes.

3. Mac OS X will be standard on all computers this summer. Apple will want it to perform top notch on all is
computers. Exit the G3 (let's keep it for something else, but that's another story), G4 for everyone.

4. You have 15-inch flat panel displays and G4 innards so small they fit inside the TiBook. This would leave
the enclosure as the only thing Apple would need o update to make a G4 LCD iMac based on the TiBook
logic board - and Steve knows great enclosures!

Expect to see this line of products:

- Single G4 iMac;
- Single G4 iBook (the so-called SOP, replacing iBook 2 which was only to take our attention away from the
real thing);
- Dual G4 Towers (new enclosure);
- Dual G4 TiBook (already spotted some places).
- Everything else: gone.

Think different they say...

again, g4 sux, motorola sux! the whole altivec crap
has been a silly business and technological decision from
the get-go...

you gotta wonder when the powerbook would catch up with the peecees megahertz-wise!? remember once apple had the lead in the pb g3 era...
if not for the imcompotent idiots at moto and greedy steve jobs at apple,
i bet we'd be running 800mhz copper g3 in the powerbook right now.

[funkboy]

Wow, now that's some speculation...

G4s across all lines would be a nice dream, but seriously... Apple itself has even admitted it isn't coming out with a new version of the iBook at MWNY - which cemented my iBook 500 purchase... I better not have missed a G4 by two weeks

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by <pazuzu>:
<STRONG>again, g4 sux, motorola sux! the whole altivec crap
has been a silly business and technological decision from
the get-go...

you gotta wonder when the powerbook would catch up with the peecees megahertz-wise!? remember once apple had the lead in the pb g3 era...
if not for the imcompotent idiots at moto and greedy steve jobs at apple,
i bet we'd be running 800mhz copper g3 in the powerbook right now.</STRONG>

Dude, what the h*ll are you talking about? I have a Dell 1.2Mhz Pentium 4 and my 400Mhz TiBook beats the crap out of it in PhotoShop 6. Yes, and they both have the same amount of RAM. So I guess Velocity Engine is crap. Yeah right. I hate to break this to you, but Mhz isn't everything.

Freakin trolls.

[icruise]

Originally posted by funkboy:
<STRONG>Wow, now that's some speculation...
</STRONG>

You can say that again! It's amazing what some people can come up with. The funny thing is, that there is often a grain of truth to many of these rumors, but we generally don't have any idea what until the actual products are released.

<STRONG>
- Single G4 iBook (the so-called SOP, replacing iBook 2 which was only to take our attention away from the
real thing);</STRONG>

Why would they need to "take our attention away" from a G4 ibook? Couldn't they just have waited a couple of months to release the successor to the ibook? The idea that they would release a "decoy product" is ridiculous.

As for the subject of this thread, while the idea of a dual-processor Tibook is attractive (heat issues aside) it seems pretty unlikely that they would make such a huge leap at this time. I predict that the next revision (which may or may not appear in July) will include a better video card and more options for internal drives. There might also be a jump to 500 and 600mhz processors.

That should be enough to entice Powerbook G3 owners like myself, who have been waiting for a machine that would be more of an upgrade from their previous machines.

[Ryu]

Seriously... what are we expecting from MWNY? New iMac? Definitely... new PowerMacs? Sure... New Powerbooks? Oh... may be. New iBook? Yeah...

Oh come on... let's be reasonably. I would love to see Apple updating all of its products but you seriously don't think it will do all that in NY? iMac needs a little upgrade. PowerMacs, definitely. So, Powerbook will wait until September. iBook will wait until Tokyo, thank you very much.

PS. By the way, how can someon imagine Apple installing 2 G4s in Ti while the damn thing is even hotter than my toaster with only one prosessor?

[ 07-07-2001: Message edited by: Ryu ]

Originally posted by velocitychannel:
<STRONG>

Dude, what the h*ll are you talking about? I have a Dell 1.2Mhz Pentium 4 and my 400Mhz TiBook beats the crap out of it in PhotoShop 6. Yes, and they both have the same amount of RAM. So I guess Velocity Engine is crap. Yeah right. I hate to break this to you, but Mhz isn't everything.

Freakin trolls. </STRONG>

photoshop this, photoshop that... blah blah blah... i'm so sick of these stupid photoshop 'bake-offs'... in return for your favor: i haven't heard one graphic pros who use photoshop with a laptop...

the truth is 800mhz g3 is sure a hell lot faster for 99.99% of apps
than the slow-poke g4 500/400 that steve jobs stick us with...

you can't handle the truth!

[Atomic Beat Boy]

Which products Apple will update is surprisingly easy to predict from channel inventory and special offers. Currently nothing I've heard points to a new PB G4 at MW NY, and the CD-RW promo runs till September. And no that isn't "just to throw us off the scent". Apple may be obsessive about people who break Non-Disclosure Agreements, but they've never done anything to deliberately confuse the public. Hence the "iBook 500 is a hoax" rumors are also bollocks. (Proof of all this: Before this year's MW SF, there were special offers on the Power Mac and PowerBook that expired Dec 31st. Which products did they update Jan 8th?)

In miniaturised electronics, the scarcest commodity is usually circuit-board area. Seeing as the motherboard is already very small due to the Airport/PC card slots and the huge DVD drive taking big chunks from it, I just don't think there's room on there for a second G4 and its support electronics, even if they could tackle the heat issue.

I'm always intrigued by the arguments around AltiVec. Like when they say "Only processor intensive apps use it". If an app isn't processor intensive, why does it even need to be optimised? The biggest issue for such programs is Hard Drive/Virtual Memory speed.

[Nimisys]

the other problem behind dual cpu notebooks is the power... desktops don't wave to woory about (see AMD's MP setup requiring a 460Watt one)but it's a HUGE deal to laptops. thats why there sppeds generally lag behing the desktops as they have to give lower power to the cpu. why do you think PowerNow! and SpeedStep were made? and Why does the Crouso CPU the best for Laptops, because of the power saving features. assuming you can cool a second CPU (mini or built in pelts perhaps, linking to heat pipes or the case?) how do you plan on powering? throw in a second Cpu and watch you lose 2/3s of you battery life. even with power saving tricks (i.e run it only when needed, only enough clockspeed for the app, ect) you might squeek by with only cutting it in half. not worth it.

[Lolo from Paris]

There won't be any dual G4 Tibook before a looooong time. Have you ever tried a Tibook ?

I own a 400 Mhz model and trust me after 2 hours of use, it is VERY hot...I don't know about the 500 Mhz model but I'm sure it's worst.

So, I can't believe Apple will release a dual processor model especially if they want to put a Geforce 2 Go or Radeon and a CDRW into the Tibook too.

Plus imagine the power you would need for a dual G4 Tibook. Battery life would be about 20 mn ;-)

Heat is the problem...and Apple doesn't like fan ;-)

[ 07-07-2001: Message edited by: Lolo from Paris ]

[bobette]

Originally posted by &lt;pazuzu&gt;:
<STRONG>

photoshop this, photoshop that... blah blah blah... i'm so sick of these stupid photoshop 'bake-offs'... in return for your favor: i haven't heard one graphic pros who use photoshop with a laptop...

the truth is 800mhz g3 is sure a hell lot faster for 99.99% of apps
than the slow-poke g4 500/400 that steve jobs stick us with...

you can't handle the truth!</STRONG>

Pros?!?! What kind.. like, uuuh, Golf pros?!?! uuh neither do i.
You evidently don't know what the hell you're blabberin' about.

Unless the pros you're reffering to are Quake gamers. AltiVec DOES make a difference, and TiBook IS used by pros to do about everything their professions ask them to do.

Next time, instead of making an arse-orifice out of yourself, Think Twice.

Originally posted by velocitychannel:
<STRONG>

Dude, what the h*ll are you talking about? I have a Dell 1.2Mhz Pentium 4 and my 400Mhz TiBook beats the crap out of it in PhotoShop 6. Yes, and they both have the same amount of RAM. So I guess Velocity Engine is crap. Yeah right. I hate to break this to you, but Mhz isn't everything.

Freakin trolls. </STRONG>

I wouldn't doubt for a second that your 400MHz g4 beats a pentium 4 1.2MHz. I didn't realise they produced a model like that tho? In fact you have been caught out in your absurd lie, you don't own a Pentium 4 1.2GHz because Intel never released one at such a low speed. Oh dear never mind. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

P.S. The p4 is a sloth, try a T-Bird 1.4GHz for your so called "comparisons"

[Mac Guru]

i haven't heard one graphic pros who use photoshop with a laptop...

Well you can't say that again... I make my living in Photoshop and Illustrator... I am currently working primarily off of a laptop. the other 10% is done on an old iMac. So don't tell me that graphics pros don't use laptops to work on... I know about 10 off the top of my head.

Mac Guru

[Circa]

Its true there are not very many graphic pros on laptops then their are on desktops. Duh, but their are alot of people using programs like photoshop and illustrator, you name it. I am one of them, I agree Mac Guru 100% this guy obviously hasn't seen many graphic pros.

[Ryu]

Hey, obviously he doesn't really know any pro-users personally but I have to say few things concerning G3 and G4 discussion. Before I start, I have to say that I am ignorant college student who doesn't know anything about real computing. I just read magazines and that's where I get my ideas so if I am wrong, please correct me.

Altivec sure makes things go faster. Look Photoshop and other Altivec-optimized softwares. They just can't be compared to the ones used on Wintel, even if it's PIV.

2 problems are:

1. Lack of Altivec optimized softwares: Many software companies program their softwares based on the Wintel version of them. So it is very difficult and enduring to produce programs that are specifically Altivec optimized. Furthermore, even Apple can't manage to produce fully Altivec optimized OSX as promised before.

2. Difficulties of producing Altivec processors: This is what I learned from many rumors magazines so I am not very sure but oh well... I heard that the yield for G4 without Altivec(which is basically G3) has better yield than G4 with Altivec. Apparently, the real difficulty is to maintain the yield while keeping the Altivec structure on them. Only Moto and IBM would know really but if they could produce faster G3 at the rate of Wintel world, may be... just may be, it would have been better to go with G3. Imagine, if we had 1.5Ghz G3 today. I don't think G4's Altivec would make Photoshop work faster than this super-fast G3. So I admit that G4 is a great chip but apparently, the problem lies on the yield compared to G3.

Sure... Photoshop is important and Altivec is important. But with G4, we don't see a general performance improvement from G3 while PIII 800mhz and PIII 1ghz, we see a general improvement. I think that is the whole point. I would just love to see some more important Altivec optimized softwares soon.

PS. If I am wrong, please tell me where I am wrong. As I said, I am not a specialist and I felt just like giving my humble opinion.

[Circa]

No don't worry Ryu you have some good and valid points.[/LIST]

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by &lt;pazuzu&gt;:
<STRONG>

photoshop this, photoshop that... blah blah blah... i'm so sick of these stupid photoshop 'bake-offs'... in return for your favor: i haven't heard one graphic pros who use photoshop with a laptop...

the truth is 800mhz g3 is sure a hell lot faster for 99.99% of apps
than the slow-poke g4 500/400 that steve jobs stick us with...

you can't handle the truth!</STRONG>

Dude, you don't even have a clue as to what the truth is. Man, you really are an ill-informed, aren't you? PhotoShop is a very common example of just what Velocity Engine does. And yes, when you put a G4 w/VE up against a Pentium 4 using PhotoShop as a benchmark, you see what little difference Mhz makes between the two.

I suggest you go and post at the Windoze SuperSite forums from now on.

Have a great day!

P.S. Many, many of my co-workers use laptops with PhotoShop professionally. Also, I seem to remember that in the making of Star Wars, Episode I they used a PowerBook G3 to perform digital video effects. But that guy probably wasn't a professional, was he? Nah.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: velocitychannel ]

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by some moron:
[QB]

I didn't realise they produced a model like that tho? In fact you have been caught out in your absurd lie, you don't own a Pentium 4 1.2GHz because Intel never released one at such a low speed. Oh dear never mind. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.
QB]

Hahaha. You're right, they don't. It was a typo. I have a 1.3 Ghz Pentium 4. A Dimension 8100 from Dell. I am sure you are familiar with Dell. You probably work for them. Oh, by the way, nice profile. Oh wait...you don't have one. Hmmm. I wonder why that is. Oh, oh, oh! I know!!

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by Ryu:
<STRONG>Sure... Photoshop is important and Altivec is important. But with G4, we don't see a general performance improvement from G3 while PIII 800mhz and PIII 1ghz, we see a general improvement. I think that is the whole point. I would just love to see some more important Altivec optimized softwares soon.</STRONG>

Well, I think you made some very valid points here. I too would love to see more Altivec optimized software. But for what I do, having PhotoShop enhanced for it makes things nice for me

[acadian]

oh, sorry, had to scroll back to the top to remember what the actual topic of this thread was, forgot what I was going to post.

lol

[admac]

Originally posted by &lt;pazuzu&gt;:
<STRONG>photoshop this, photoshop that... blah blah blah... i'm so sick of these stupid photoshop 'bake-offs'... in return for your favor: i haven't heard one graphic pros who use photoshop with a laptop...</STRONG>

uh. i do it all the time. i do layouts on my powerbook when i'm not in my office and sometimes that entails doing retouching on the road on a laptop. i just bring my mouse along and we're good to go. also, almost all the photographers i work with (high end pro photographers) carry a powerbook with them to do retouches on the fly for their clients to see. maybe you just don't know enough "graphic pros." cause practically every art director i know has had to do some photoshop work on a laptop at some point. in fact, i'm waiting till mwny to buy a new machine to by my only machine at this house. so i'll be doing tons of graphics work on it with an extra monitor and even getting into video editing and fx.

[admac]

dp

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: admac ]

[milhous]

as much as i had the urge to flame the hell out of the dual processing TiBook possibility, who really knows?

i mean, even before mwsf '01 earlier this year, consensus suggested that there was no way that a g4 was going to be in the successor model of the Pismo. but low and behold they did.

i think anything will fly these days with the exception of having macs powered by AMD chips.

the day a macintosh is powered by inferior x86 chips will be the day i die.

I've been using my Tibook for Photoshop work all day, and let me tell you it IS very quick, yes even quicker than the 1ghz Athlon at work!
Times are changing and clock speed is now no longer the most important factor. If there are any other Graphic Designers out there worried about the speed of the Tibook and yet to make the jump from desktop to laptop, don't even hesitate now is the time.

[Atomic Beat Boy]

Originally posted by milhous:
<STRONG>i mean, even before mwsf '01 earlier this year, consensus suggested that there was no way that a g4 was going to be in the successor model of the Pismo. but low and behold they did.</STRONG>

Consensus amongst who? Ever since the G4 towers came out people expected a G4 powerbook. A lot of people thought the Pismo would ship with a G4. Before every single show since the G4s came out in October 99 people were expecting a Powerbook G4.

[Azerty]

Originally posted by Atomic Beat Boy:
<STRONG>. Currently nothing I've heard points to a new PB G4 at MW NY, and the CD-RW promo runs till September. And no that isn't "just to throw us off the scent"..</STRONG>

ACTUALLY the CD-RW promo runs till JULY 27 in Europe! (http://www.apple.com/uk/promo/powerbook/) Do you really believe that Apple will then revert to selling Ti 'Books without the CD-RWs till September?

[Korv]

Originally posted by ltitle:
<STRONG>... what is the likelihood that a 2 processor machine will be anounced in July or September. </STRONG>

Hahahahahahahahahaheheheheheeeeeehooohohohohahahah ahahaha. *ahem*

Did I help answer your questions?

[Phoible]

Another barrier to dual-processor TiBooks would be battery life. In order to keep the same battery life, Apple would need to make the battery significantly larger and heavier. And they would need more ventilation. So unless they double the thickness and add a pound or two, I can't seen a 2-CPU TiBook in the near future.

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by Phoible:
<STRONG>Another barrier to dual-processor TiBooks would be battery life. In order to keep the same battery life, Apple would need to make the battery significantly larger and heavier.</STRONG>

This is a good point and one that I hadn't thought of. Personally, I doubt very much that we will see a dual processor configuration for a TiBook for awhile. But then again, Apple's engineers have come up with some amazing things in the last few years. So who knows.

um, would it take a dummy to program a simple "if battery is on, then disable the second processor" solution? Other companies have engineered a solution to the heat problem...

Look, who the heck would shell out an extra thousand bucks for a 400 g4 Powerbook when the iBook has similar performance. Sure there are plenty of great features on the Powerbook that the iBook is lacking, but let's get real. A 100mHz speed bump is nothing too smashing.

There needs to be some distance between the two laptops, and a dualie would do it. I'm waiting here with my g3 400 powerbook waiting for a reason to buy, and that would get me there. Maybe not right that day, but during the quarter certainly.

[PeteWK]

I'm afraid all of my good Apple friends here on Macnn have lost their way on this one. And the reason is because we're not talking about a computer question. We're talking about a business question. The bottom line is how much can Apple put into a computer and still maintain their profit margin? My quess is that since they came out with the Ti G4, their costs have probably only come down 100-150 dollars max. That would allow for the video upgrade and maybe a 100mhz speed bump, now that production has ramped up at Motorola. That's as far as my vote goes.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Apple bean counters sit around in a circle and talk about what items they could install in every computer and how much it would cost them. They do this periodically as prices on existing components come down. Their objective is to continuously revise their hardware to (nearly) exactly maintain their profit margin. The truth is nothing more and nothing less than that.

Some of you need to go back to school and get your MBAs. You're starting to scare me with jibberish.

PeteWK

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: PeteWK ]

Well, welcome to the 1st world, where innovations and superior competition are the key to unit sales -- especially in this Western consumption environment in which we flourish.

While you were getting your MBA, you were too busy to realize that Apple simply shoehorned a g4 chip onto the existing Powerbook G3 motherboard. In other words, they have not improved the Powerbook internals for well over a year now. Funny how a cheaper consumer product such as the iBook can cannibalize sales of the higher margin G4 Powerbook by following your bean-counting fallacy. Do you even realize just how cheap a G4 7410 chip is these days? Imagine increased margins when they add a $100 chip and charge $400 for that option. In fact, they could charge an additional cost for every additional option as a build-to-order situation.

Funny how you don't see many Ti Powerbooks in use around town. Now what's the MBA explanation for that?

[ion]

&gt;&gt;Look, who the heck would shell out an extra thousand bucks for a 400 g4 Powerbook when the iBook has similar performance. Sure there are plenty of great features on the Powerbook that the iBook is lacking, but let's get real. A 100mHz speed bump is nothing too smashing.

Anyone whose job requires them to work with altivec coded apps...

And actuialy its not a "100mhz speed bump" but a "100mhz speed drop" : )

[velocitychannel]

Originally posted by &lt;mugwump1&gt;:
<STRONG>
There needs to be some distance between the two laptops, and a dualie would do it.
</STRONG>

You're kidding, right? The is a pretty big distance between the two, and I am not just talking about price.

[Korv]

Man, dual processor laptops are not going to happen. I posted a sarcastic response for two resons: (1) the concept is so rediculous and (2) others had already covered why it wouldn't happen. Yet your still speculating about a dual G4 PowerBook. Ugh.

Let's first look at this from an engineering prespective (before we revisit it from a business presepctive). First problem is sapce. The TiBook is mighty samll, and I doubt there's room in there for another processor. Do you really think Apple is going to abandon the design that won it acolades and awards and go back to a 2+" thick box? Let's say they can shoehorn a second processor in there, the #1 problem will be heat disipation. They would have to put in a fan, and probably two (one in one out) to get proper air circulation in such cramped quarters. This would make the 'Book much bigger (see above). It would also make it MUCH louder. As we all know Jobs has a fetish for quiet computers, and I doubt he would sacrafice the usbility for a gimick like a second processor. Third, there is powerconsumption. Between the beefed up MoBo, the second processor, and the two fans, this thing would last about 15 minutes on battery. Unless, again, you upped the batery size, thus makeing the enclosure large (again) and heavy. There are zero engineering probelms with making a dulie laptop, it would just be huge, heavy, and loud! The crux is the heat disipation. No matter how good your engineering, you can't change the laws of thermodynamics.

Now from a business prespective. Mr. MBA was talking about unit margins. In this case R&D costs would have more of an impact than unit production costs. To get a dualie you gotta: redesign the MoBo, redesign the enclosure, retool production (in Apple's case pay/wait for your contractor to retool), and ramp up. The fact is this would cost buku bucks. After it was done, Apple would have to charge tons (probably over $7500 ea.) on these special dualies to cover startup. After start-up, Apple has just increased the complexity of its lineup by adding an additional MoBo (read: the price of single-chip laptops will go up too). (They wouldn't use the dualie MoBo with only one processor because of the increased power/heat generation. This is the same reson why a software hack to turn off one processor on battery wouldn't work: the MoBo and other overhead still ruin your power/heat equations.) Having a dualie (even if it ran on one processor) would necessarily be more expensive than BOTH a G4 laptop and a dualie desktop COMBINED. So the descision would make no sense to Apple Finance OR Apple Marketing either as (1) they couldn't recoup costs (2) there is NO market niche.

Yes, a dualie G4 laptop would be cool as all getout technologically. But for BOTH engineering and business reasons it is not going to happen this year, or next, or next. I'd say it will reasonably be 5 years before you see a laptop with more than one processor. And then it would make most sense with something like the Crusoe (realy low power, low preformance) and a *NIX OS, like linux or OSX. Face it: desktops are faster than laptops. If you want preformance (like 2 or 4 processors) get somthing that you can adequatly cool (read: huge) and can plug into the wall. The chance of a dual processor Apple laptop in the next 18 months is ZERO.

[Niubi]

Originally posted by Mac Guru:
<STRONG>Dual G4 laptop = big 'ol hunka titanium bull crap

Not gonna happen... too hot, too big, too stupid.

Save it for the towers.

Mac Guru</STRONG>

Disagree, you can afford another inch on the old titanium, and still be a damn sexy machine in the titanium mould...also think about the ramifications for on site video post production in the high end video market and the OS X influence

[Ryu]

Originally posted by Niubi:
<STRONG>

Disagree, you can afford another inch on the old titanium, and still be a damn sexy machine in the titanium mould...also think about the ramifications for on site video post production in the high end video market and the OS X influence</STRONG>

I am sure you're right but the problem is that now Ti is only an inch thick therefore Steve will never want to introduce a Powerbook thicker than the one we have today. Even if it has to be thicker, I doubt that it'll be very different. I personally don't believe that dual G4 is possible for notebooks... well... not this year anyway.

How long did we have G3? After years of development, G3 is still damn hot. Well, to be more precise, my new iBook is a lot hotter than I expect it to be. To pack in 2 really low-consuming G4 in an inch thick notebook, I believe that will take at least few years from now.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm not a specialist so may be I am wrong... but oh well...

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Ryu ]

[Ryu]

Oops... double post.

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Ryu ]

[kman42]

I doubt Apple would alter the enclosure; it is just too soon for that. Whatever upgrade they make will have to be in the same enclosure with the same space limitations. Anyone know how big a G4 is? What other chips do you need to support a second cpu? Any at all?

As for the heat problem, I'm sure they could come up with something to dissipate the heat via the titanium case. After all, what good is huge surface area of thermal conducting material if you can't use it to cool the thing off? I'm half kidding on this point, but I'm sure Apple can find a way around this issue if they really wanted to. Quiet fans maybe?

The power consumption seems like the hardest problem to solve to me. Any new battery technologies in the pipeline?

I doubt that Apple will be introducing dual PBs next week, but if we are going to speculate can't we throw around some facts? It would be much more informative if someone who actually knows would chime in with some worthwhile information rather than just repeating the "it's impossible" refrain.

I'm thinking we will see 500 and 600 mhz machines or possibly 733s, new graphics, more drive options. Anything more would be quite a jump and rather unprecedented.

kman

[Stingray]

Well, as for batteries, maybe a lithium-polymer battery design is in the works. I don't know if Apple has them in 'Books already. They should be marginally better than current lithium-ion batteries.

Stingray

[THT]

Originally posted by Ryu:
How long did we have G3? After years of development, G3 is still damn hot. Well, to be more precise, my new iBook is a lot hotter than I expect it to be.

Well, the problem with the Powerbook G3 heat was that Apple kept on using higher clocked processors so the CPU power consumption essentially stayed the same, around 5 to 8 Watts, throughout the Powerbook G3's life. It's no different with the iBook.

To pack in 2 really low-consuming G4 in an inch thick notebook, I believe that will take at least few years from now.

Space-wise, I don't think it would be a problem if Apple uses the MPC 7440. Since it doesn't have backside cache, (it has 256K L2 cache on the die), 2 of them won't take up much more room than the current PBG4 with the MPC 7410 with 1 MB backside cache. The 1 MB of SRAM cache chip(s) do take up about the same area as the CPU itself.

As always, the problem is dissipating the heat. The 7440 is a little hot for a uniprocessor PBG4, let alone a dual. So, Motorola has to bring the HiP 7 fab online sooner than later reduce the voltage of the 7440 to 1.2V or 1.3V like Intel does with their mobile processors. I'd be amazed if the HiP 7 fab comes online by Q4 01 let alone Q3 01, and I don't think they'd put in the work to further reduce voltage requirements on the 7440. So, a dual PBG4 probably isn't in the cards this year. I suppose Apple could use the 7410 however, but the increase in MHz won't be all that great.

Okay, now we have hit upon the problem. The current 7410 chip won't scale up very far in speed, unless MOT can pull something off. That 7440 chip that THT mentions is TWICE as hot as the current Powerbook G4 processor, and it should only be used in a g4 iMac or the embedded chip market.

So what's the roadmap for the Powerbook g4? Duals would solve any speed problem.

Oh yeah, and to the MBA dude up above, we should expect that the R+D costs that you mentioned above must be underway or already spent and finished, because Apple needs to have something ready to go as a backup solution, even if it's never used. It's called Research and Development and yes it does cost some money.

[Ryu]

Originally posted by THT:
<STRONG>As always, the problem is dissipating the heat. The 7440 is a little hot for a uniprocessor PBG4, let alone a dual. So, Motorola has to bring the HiP 7 fab online sooner than later reduce the voltage of the 7440 to 1.2V or 1.3V like Intel does with their mobile processors. I'd be amazed if the HiP 7 fab comes online by Q4 01 let alone Q3 01, and I don't think they'd put in the work to further reduce voltage requirements on the 7440. So, a dual PBG4 probably isn't in the cards this year. I suppose Apple could use the 7410 however, but the increase in MHz won't be all that great.</STRONG>

The reason why I perceive Apple notebooks better than Wintel ones is of course the design but also their performance compared to the desktop machines. People who got me to buy a Mac actually told me that Apple notebooks use basically the same processors as desktops unlike Wintel Mobile version of processors which are relatively slower than their desktop-version brothers.

Please correct me if I am wrong but if Apple(I mean Moto and IBM) decides to develop specific mobile version of G4, aren't Powerbooks going to lose this theoratic advantage over Wintel notebooks?

[THT]

Originally posted by Ryu:
The reason why I perceive Apple notebooks better than Wintel ones is of course the design but also their performance compared to the desktop machines. People who got me to buy a Mac actually told me that Apple notebooks use basically the same processors as desktops unlike Wintel Mobile version of processors which are relatively slower than their desktop-version brothers.

As I recall, back in the Pentium I/II days, Intel produced some mobile Pentia with lower performance cache architectures, but the primary problem was that Intel didn't ship mobile Pentia at clock rates even close to desktop Pentia due to power consumption. They have that problem to this day. Back in those days, Apple shipped notebooks and desktops at the same MHz. Obviously Apple doesn't do that anymore.

In general, mobile Pentia or Celera are just low voltage desktop Pentia or Celera. At the same MHz and memory architecture, mobile Pentia will perform the same as desktop Pentia. However, you don't see mobile 1.5 GHz PIV anywhere do you.

Please correct me if I am wrong but if Apple(I mean Moto and IBM) decides to develop specific mobile version of G4, aren't Powerbooks going to lose this theoratic advantage over Wintel notebooks?

Running a processor at lower voltages doesn't reduce performance; computers are digital machines, not analog. Reducing voltage does reduce power consumption (by about the square of the ratios of voltages). TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch), processors that run at lower voltages aren't as easy to produce as ones with higher voltages, so it ends up being more expensive (and less plentiful). Note, Intel is the King at mass producing microprocessors.

Since notebooks are power sensitive, they don't run with the same performance memories, bus speeds, hard drives, and video chips as desktops. So notebooks do have less performance than desktops at the same CPU clock rate. What seems to be PPC's advantage is that Windows on x86 is more cache/memory sensitive than Mac OS 9 on PPC. I don't think the story is the same with Mac OS X.

One thing I can see is Apple shipping a dual 1.5V MPC 7410 (with the Pangea core logic). Moto says they'll ship 450 MHz 1.5V 3.5W 7410 CPUs in Q3. 500 or 533 MHz 7410s won't consume much more power at all, they'll just be less plentiful. 2 of them probably consumes less power than a single 600 MHz 7440. So a dual notebook isn't beyond the realm of possibility. The problem is that dual 500 MHz G4s versus a single 600 or 700 MHz G4 is a very complex tradeoff.

[Phoible]

The plural of Pentium is Pentiums, not Pentia
The plural of Celeron is Celerons, not Celera

[Azerty]

Originally posted by Phoible:
<STRONG>The plural of Pentium is Pentiums, not Pentia
The plural of Celeron is Celerons, not Celera</STRONG>

Before you start flaming posters please check your facts: http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=pentium

[M�lum]

Dual G4 in TiBooks? = no way