[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

The animals require meat to survive. Humans do not. At any rate, a lion treats it's food in a far less cruel manner than humans do.

The point: it's a part of nature that animals kill and eat other animals.

It's merely someone's belief that humans have 'evolved' past that themselves, or that there's any moral issue involved. IE: A lion is morally exempt, therefore when it bites the throat out of a gazelle and eats it, its perfectly natural. But somehow a human can't have a steak because there's some moral absolute that states otherwise.

Personally, I think that's a whole load of horseshit. It's merely someone's BELIEF that there's anything "immoral" about humans eating meat. A belief that's no different than someone's religious belief.

I have no problem what-so-ever with people believing whatever they want. I don't eat much if any red meat myself- it's a personal choice, as it should be for anyone.

It's just when people start trying to force their beliefs on others that the problems start. If others choose to eat meat- a perfectly normal part of the natural world- then fine.

Also, the whole "cruelty free" nonsense, is just that. That just reeks of another of those ways people exempt themselves from whatever it is they're thumping on about, because they've found a little 'loophole' for themselves. If you believe it's wrong to kill animals for food, knock off all the what way of being killed and consumed is "cruel" or what isn't nonsense.

Lions don't torture and rape their food before they eat it.

Ever see a mere house cat catch a mouse?

[voodoo]

Ethics are just excuses for doing what you really want to do. There is a right thing and a wrong thing in every situation. Ethics be damned.

V

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Ethics are just excuses for doing what you really want to do. There is a right thing and a wrong thing in every situation. Ethics be damned.

V

Oh, this is just screaming to be quoted again. For posterity. Or something.

greg

[hyteckit]

Mad Cow Disease is God way of telling you bastards not to eat red meat.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Mad Cow Disease is God way of telling you bastards not to eat red meat.

It's God's way of reminding us that we should stop fucxing with shiat we know nothing about or we'll create diseases we know even less about. There was nothing wrong with red meat 'til a couple pinheads thought too much about ways to meddle with it.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Mad Cow Disease is God way of telling you bastards not to eat red meat.

Poor science created that monster. Just like it will create some rather horrendous diseases due to tampering with human genetics (if it hasn't already).

[Kr0nos]

I pretty much followed an omnivore diet for the first 30 years of my life, and to be completely honest, never had a clue about what went on in factory farms and other meat production facilities.

I made an effort to educate myself about the horrendous effects of meat consumption on society, the environment and politics and turned vegetarian over-nite – haven't looked back since.

To each his own, I guess, but turning a blind eye towards the tremendous amount of cruelty going on, simply because people want to continue their meat eating habits, makes me shake my head with disbelief (at times).

It's all rather sickening.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos 

I pretty much followed an omnivore diet for the first 30 years of my life, and to be completely honest, never had a clue about what went on in factory farms and other meat production facilities.

I made an effort to educate myself about the horrendous effects of meat consumption on society, the environment and politics and turned vegetarian over-nite – haven't looked back since.

To each his own, I guess, but turning a blind eye towards the tremendous amount of cruelty going on, simply because people want to continue their meat eating habits, makes me shake my head with disbelief (at times).

It's all rather sickening.

So, you're painting all meateaters with that broad brush, eh?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

So, you're painting all meateaters with that broad brush, eh?

Not at all. But, from my experience at least, only very few people who indulge in meat eating habits take it upon themselves to actually find out what "goes into" making that delicious burger etc.

And a lot of "them", even if they do find out, simply don't do a damn thing about it.

Of course there are those too who try to do their best to minimize the suffering in the production cycle...definitely a step in the right direction.

Like I said, to each his own.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

How did "poor science" and create the monster that is mad cow disease? I don't know much about it at all, but I thought it came from feed companies grinding up animals like sheep for feed for other animals.

greg

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

How did "poor science" and create the monster that is mad cow disease? I don't know much about it at all, but I thought it came from feed companies grinding up animals like sheep for feed for other animals.

greg

I'm sure these multi-multi-million dollar feed companies studied it in their labs to see if the practice is harmful. Not to mention the state universities that work hand-in-hand with these mega-farms (and rely on their sizeable donations).

[The Left]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos 

Not at all. But, from my experience at least, only very few people who indulge in meat eating habits take it upon themselves to actually find out what "goes into" making that delicious burger etc.

And a lot of "them", even if they do find out, simply don't do a damn thing about it.

this is why legislation/laws are needed to enforce a ethical diet on those too stupid to think for themselves.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Left 

this is why legislation/laws are needed to enforce a ethical diet on those too stupid to think for themselves.

Stalin, Mao, and Castro all tried that, and failed.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Stalin, Mao, and Castro all tried that, and failed.

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Stalin, Mao, and Castro all tried that, and failed.

Interesting, I wasn't aware Stalin, Mao or let alone Castore issued laws regulating dietary habits in regards to vegetarianism…

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos 

Interesting, I wasn't aware Stalin, Mao or let alone Castore issued laws regulating dietary habits in regards to vegetarianism…

They all had widespread studies done, entire provinces regulated and watched. It didn't work though, people would simply get the food they wanted from other (not so legal) sources.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

Maybe because they're an island with very limited resources and faltering food production?

If the meat were available, they'd eat it.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

Their population is also more healthy and have a higher life expectancy than most Americans.

I'm sure not having access to Mcdonolds helps alot too.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

Cuba probably has a very low overall food consumption rate, considering how the majority of the population lives in poverty. I seriously doubt they can afford to go to vegetarian restaurants either.

Holding up Cuba as a model of a vegetarian lifestyle is hardly going to give your arguement credibility.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos 

Not at all. But, from my experience at least, only very few people who indulge in meat eating habits take it upon themselves to actually find out what "goes into" making that delicious burger etc.

And a lot of "them", even if they do find out, simply don't do a damn thing about it.

Of course there are those too who try to do their best to minimize the suffering in the production cycle...definitely a step in the right direction.

Like I said, to each his own.

In order to eat meat you have to kill the animal, period. If you consider that cruel, then it doesn't matter if the animal is killed in an efficient manner or if its sitting on a pillow being fanned with palm fronds which is what "cruelty free" people want. I've read a number of books about meat processing--some written by vegetarians--and aside from a few concerns I have about contamination and employee safety--I don't have a problem with the practices of these plants.

The only rules a meat processing plants should have to follow are those that ensure that the end product is safe for human consumption.

People "don't do a damn thing" about it because most sensible people recognize that animals like cows and chickens are here for us to eat. Not because the Bible says so, but because that is the natural food that we need and have evolved to eat.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

Their population is also more healthy and have a higher life expectancy than most Americans.

I'm sure not having access to Mcdonolds helps alot too.

My family is from Cuba, I've been there on several occasions (once legally and twice illegally), and I can tell you that their life expectancy isn't even close to that of citizens of developed countries. Castro's administration is full of **** if they claim otherwise. I've had relatives in their teens die from malnutrition, cholera, and dysentery. The place is a hellhole, with a few semi-nice places set aside for tourists and publicity.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

Yeah, just tell Americans we can abandon the lifestyle we have now, and start living like they do in Cuba. We will be miserable, but it's ok, because the animals are happy!

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

In order to eat meat you have to kill the animal, period. If you consider that cruel, then it doesn't matter if the animal is killed in an efficient manner or if its sitting on a pillow being fanned with palm fronds which is what "cruelty free" people want. I've read a number of books about meat processing--some written by vegetarians--and aside from a few concerns I have about contamination and employee safety--I don't have a problem with the practices of these plants.

The only rules a meat processing plants should have to follow are those that ensure that the end product is safe for human consumption.

People "don't do a damn thing" about it because most sensible people recognize that animals like cows and chickens are here for us to eat. Not because the Bible says so, but because that is the natural food that we need and have evolved to eat.

Well I supose the amount of suffering an animal may or may not have is up for opinion. For me the main concern is...what is in the meat? If it came from a factory it is probably loaded with pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, fat, and other nasty things. Fish farming also suffers from the same problems.

Organic free-range on the other hand is completely different.


People need to change how they think of meat. Many (if not most) of the prevantable diseases the developed world suffers from are linked to diet. Humans were never meant to eat meat every day. Diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, ect... all linked to diet. --- the American diet that is.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by The Left 

Cuba has a very low meat consumption rate compared to the rest of the world so I would not call that a failure at all.

Originally Posted by The Left

this is why legislation/laws are needed to enforce a ethical diet on those too stupid to think for themselves.

Ok, that settles it. You have to be a sock puppet.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Ok, that settles it. You have to be a sock puppet.

just because you disagree?

[Dakar²]

No, because you're a joke.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

No, because you're a joke.

? well sorry you disagree

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by The Left 

? well sorry you disagree

Oh no. He's stating provable fact.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Oh no. He's stating provable fact.

that he disagrees?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by The Left 

that he disagrees?

Uh... yeah.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

If it came from a factory it is probably loaded with pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, fat, and other nasty things. Fish farming also suffers from the same problems.

True, but I think many of these things are also present in vegetables(not antibiotics or hormones obviously, but certainly pesiticides aplenty). I remember as a kid seeing a chemical froth in the ditches next to corn and sugarbeat fields.

People need to change how they think of meat. Many (if not most) of the prevantable diseases the developed world suffers from are linked to diet. Humans were never meant to eat meat every day. Diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, ect... all linked to diet. --- the American diet that is.

Sure, the average person probably shouldn't have meat at every meal and I certainly won't dispute that people's health problems are frequently caused by what they eat. However, when I hear vegetarian people argue about how unhealthy meat is, they tend to focus on fast food at places like McDonald's or Burger King -- as if the only way to eat red meat is in between two buns with extra cheese and bacon. A lean cut of red meat with a side of *gasp* vegetables(rather than steak fries) is perfectly healthy. Substituting a chicken breast would be even better.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

I'm sure these multi-multi-million dollar feed companies studied it in their labs to see if the practice is harmful. Not to mention the state universities that work hand-in-hand with these mega-farms (and rely on their sizeable donations).

Could be true, but the statements on "science" leading to this downfall were quite strong. Does anyone have anything besides supposition on the processes behind how animals like sheep were ground up and fed to other animals?

greg

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Could be true, but the statements on "science" leading to this downfall were quite strong. Does anyone have anything besides supposition on the processes behind how animals like sheep were ground up and fed to other animals?

Where'd it happen?

Is that place also a derelict spiv nation in which the inhabitants will do anything and take all manner of shortcuts to save a buck?

That's not supposition. That's fact (I'm in the National Farmers' Union of that country).

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Well, that's what I was wondering. At least two people specifically blamed mad cow disease on scientific tampering with "things they don't understand." I know very little about its history, but if it was indeed transmitted by grinding up animals to feed other animals, I have my doubts that "science" was very involved in the process in any meaningful way – probably more like feed companies trying to save a buck and not testing their product at all.

Not that I don't think science does a crapload of stupid stuff. But blaming "junk science" for mad cow when no one seems to be able to produce any evidence makes me go

greg

[Zeeb]

Why was "The Left" banninated? He/she was the one flamebaiting us to keep this thread going.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Well, that's what I was wondering. At least two people specifically blamed mad cow disease on scientific tampering with "things they don't understand." I know very little about its history, but if it was indeed transmitted by grinding up animals to feed other animals, I have my doubts that "science" was very involved in the process in any meaningful way – probably more like feed companies trying to save a buck and not testing their product at all.

Not that I don't think science does a crapload of stupid stuff. But blaming "junk science" for mad cow when no one seems to be able to produce any evidence makes me go

There was a teeny bit of science mixed in, IIRC. But what you have to remember is that those scientists are inhabitants of that derelict spiv nation. If I had to guess I'd say 75% feed companies, 25% "scientists".

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

In order to eat meat you have to kill the animal, period. If you consider that cruel, then it doesn't matter if the animal is killed in an efficient manner or if its sitting on a pillow being fanned with palm fronds which is what "cruelty free" people want.

Well, given the wealth of information out there, and the mind boggling amount of senseless cruelty involved in factory farming, I personally don't see how any halfway "sensitive" and intelligent person could not at least think about changing his or her dietary habits to at least minimize the suffering involved.

I don't know what books you've read, but what I've seen and heard is hardly a "laughing matter". It's not only the lack of efficiency (both nutritional and ecological), but also the unbelievable disrespect for ethical concerns in (some) factory farms which made me reconsider my choice of food.

The "health concerns" you speak of are, of course, a direct result of these issues.

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

People "don't do a damn thing" about it because most sensible people recognize that animals like cows and chickens are here for us to eat.

And you know this because…? Quite frankly, even if they were alive merely for our consumption (which is not only highly debatable, but most likely flat out wrong), that still wouldn't justify the sometimes truly revolting ways animals are being treated in ritual killings, factory farms, and meat production facilities.