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VP Debate Tonight (Page 2)
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OldManMac
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Oct 2, 2008, 10:54 PM
 
I'm glad she did a much better job at making less of a fool of herself, but she's still in way over her head.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
TheWOAT
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Oct 2, 2008, 10:56 PM
 
tie
     
Kerrigan
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Oct 2, 2008, 10:59 PM
 
Obviously I'm a McCain guy but I felt that Biden had the edge in this debate. Biden came off as far more knowledgeable about national security, and although I find Obama's economic policy to be detrimental to growth, Biden did a much better job articulating and defending himself on this topic.

Palin's weakest moment came when she called Joe Biden's stance on Iraq a "white flag of surrender," after Biden gave a lengthy and detailed defense of Obama's Iraq strategy. The whole thing reminded me about how the "social conservatives" have little understanding of foreign policy.

I felt that Biden won, and I don't quite see why pollsters are saying that Palin won with a large margin of voters.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:04 PM
 
I find it amazing how Israel always finds a way to be a subject in debates.
     
Kerrigan
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:09 PM
 
What strikes me the most is how similar the two campaigns are. Both oppose gay marriage yet are for giving gay couples "civil rights"; both are for carbon caps; both are for drilling; both are for energy independence; both are for more aggressive measures against Iran; both are for the "bailout"; where is the real distinction between the two? Taxes? I doubt the rich east coast Democrat supporters of Obama's campaign are going to let him hike taxes as much as he says he will when he's elected.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
tie
I wouldn't quite say it was a tie but I would say it was much closer than I had expected.
(I didn't give Palin much credit before-hand but she surprised me with her poise and directness.)

I would rate it as 55% / 45% (Biden / Palin)
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TheMosco  (op)
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:25 PM
 
I would say style points are pretty close, I was expecting worse from Palin. However, there is no question that content wise, Palin was lacking in almost everything she said.

I also agree that the white flag statement was a pretty low point in her debate. It was pretty obvious that she didn't know what to say and her point didn't make any sense.
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Face Ache
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I find it amazing how Israel always finds a way to be a subject in debates.
For some reason King Kong and Fay Wray spring to mind.

Palin's performance wasn't the comedy riot I expected (energy energy energy joe six-pack hockey-mom energy soccer-mom energy maverick maverick maverick energy white flag surrender energy energy energy wink wink aside).
     
SpaceMonkey
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheMosco View Post
I also agree that the white flag statement was a pretty low point in her debate. It was pretty obvious that she didn't know what to say and her point didn't make any sense.
Whatever. All America needs to know is that John McCain knows how to win a war. Except that one he was in, I guess. Although I guess his POW experience counts as a personal victory. Does anyone know if McCain has commanded any wars that I'm not aware of?

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OldManMac
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Oct 2, 2008, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Whatever. All America needs to know is that John McCain knows how to win a war. Except that one he was in, I guess. Although I guess his POW experience counts as a personal victory. Does anyone know if McCain has commanded any wars that I'm not aware of?
He hasn't commanded anything, and his POW experience may be quite a bit different than he explains it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/cov...l_john_mccain/
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Shaddim
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:17 AM
 
I missed the debate many of you were watching, the one I viewed showed a clear Palin win. Maybe I should have watched it on PBS.


Palin 62/ Biden 38
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OAW
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:23 AM
 
My observations ....

1. Sarah Palin managed not to come across as clueless and incoherent as she has done in her recent interviews.

2. Sarah Palin continually repeated the same Republican talking points.

3. Joe Biden on several occasions totally decimated Palin with facts on his rebuttals. Palin, OTOH, simply did more of #2 on her rebuttal opportunities. For instance A. She never addressed it when Biden mentioned that McCain voted the same way Obama did when Palin criticized Obama's votes. B. She never addressed the deregulation issue. C. She never addressed the topic when she kept harping on Ahmadenijad and Biden pointed out that he doesn't control the security apparatus in Iran. Etc.

4. No major gaffes on either Biden's or Palin's part.

5. Palin really needed to just stop it when she went on that "There you go again talking about the past." when Biden pointed out that McCain didn't differ with Bush on any major policy initiative in the last 8 years. You can't claim to be all about "straight talk" on the one hand, and then duck the fact that you are in agreement with the Bush administration on the substantive policy issues on the other hand.

6. Palin was clearly reading notes throughout much of her answers. Probably has something to do with why she sounded so much better than she did in unscripted interviews.

7. The whole "Ifill is in the tank for Obama" controversy was complete BS.

8. Palin is a relatively attractive woman, but she really needs to work on that fake a*s smile. The nasal voice .... well, that's just how she talks. Not much she can do about that I suppose.

9. Did she really need to say "maverick" like 100 times? Why keep belaboring that point unless you are trying to distance yourself from the Bush administration on major policy issues ... on which McCain was in lockstep with it?

10. Overall a good debate. Palin went a long way toward redeeming her image. She was still very obviously scripted and rehearsed. But that may not matter for the general public. I expect she won't be doing many more extensive interviews between now and the election. I'm sure the McCain doesn't want her to screw up the good she did for his campaign tonite.

OAW
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:35 AM
 
OMG! "I'd like to thank the Commission for allowing me to speak directly to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media"? No dear. There was no filter in your recent interviews. You came off as incoherent all on your own in those interviews. I certainly disagree with her and McCain on the issues. However, she came across as very intelligent and articulate this evening. I'll grant her that. She didn't seem nowhere near as informed on the issues as Biden ... but that's another topic. But she really did herself a disservice by trying to play the "mainstream media" card because it in no way explains away her dismal performance in her recent interviews.

OAW
     
shabbasuraj
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:42 AM
 
Palin on global warming...

"I don't want to argue about the causes, what I want to argue about is how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts."

kinda incoherent.... no?
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xi_hyperon
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I missed the debate many of you were watching, the one I viewed showed a clear Palin win. Maybe I should have watched it on PBS.


Palin 62/ Biden 38
Elaborate? I haven't watched it yet.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
Palin on global warming...

"I don't want to argue about the causes, what I want to argue about is how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts."

kinda incoherent.... no?
Positively affect the negative impacts of global warming through actions to combat it. It wasn't incoherent. Perhaps not as artful as some others may have put it, but it wasn't incoherent.

Wow, you guys are really terrifically tough on her. She obviously won the debate. She displayed a good grasp of the issues, stayed on the offensive, spoke authoritatively, smoothly and passionately in a way that will resonate with non-partisans. Biden came across as tired, pessimistic and smug, a characteristic he shares with the top of his ticket. Could she have done better on a few of the issues? Sure. But on the whole her performance was almost the best anyone could have asked for. If you can't give her credit where it's due you know you're a blind, hopeless partisan.

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Oct 3, 2008, 01:12 AM
 
Biggy, you're the last person to be giving advice on how to avoid being partisan, and you have absolutely no standing to judge what will and won't resonate with non-partisans. You owe it to yourself to at least recognize that your view is slanted, so you won't be surprised when your estimation of what non-partisans will see is horribly inaccurate. Just curious, what was the last topic where you portrayed anything counter to your party line?
     
OAW
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Oct 3, 2008, 01:15 AM
 
Palin won huh? Really?

Well so far this poll has Biden the winner at nearly 80% to 20% for Palin.

http://www.polls.newsvine.com/_quest...dential-debate

And this poll has Biden the winner at nearly 51% to 36% for Palin.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...oll/index.html

The following is a quite telling quote ....

While both vice presidential candidates succeeded in their only debate of the campaign Thursday night, the stakes were much higher and the bar was much lower for Palin. So, in the contest of low expectations, Palin won.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27001589/

OAW
     
goMac
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Oct 3, 2008, 01:16 AM
 
I wish I could answer questions like Palin does...

"I would love to do this Calculus problem. But honestly, I'm not going to let a professor make me answer the questions they want on a final. Instead, I'm going to do this addition problem..."
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SpaceMonkey
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Oct 3, 2008, 01:17 AM
 
Smoothly? No. Authoritatively? Maybe on energy issues, which she fell back on as a crutch repeatedly when she wouldn't address other questions. She's obviously still cramming on foreign policy. Coherently? Yes. If she "won" it was only because the expectation was that she wouldn't be able to speak in complete sentences. On balance, it was a tie at best. Certainly nothing that's going to help or harm either campaign.

I thought it was interesting that on CNN's real-time reaction meter, their bipartisan focus group in Ohio had virtually no reaction at all during long stretches of Palin's remarks.

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OAW
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Oct 3, 2008, 01:29 AM
 
And while she spoke articulately on energy, what did she say really other than more domestic drilling? The fact remains that that approach won't produce another drop of oil for at least 10 years. Alternative energy sources is the what is needed for climate change, energy independence, and national security issues. Palin's (and McCain's policy) would only line the pockets of oil companies. And do nothing for the aforementioned issues.

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Big Mac
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Oct 3, 2008, 02:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Biggy, you're the last person to be giving advice on how to avoid being partisan, and you have absolutely no standing to judge what will and won't resonate with non-partisans.
You are entitled to your opinion.

Just curious, what was the last topic where you portrayed anything counter to your party line?
I don't support some of the things McCain-Palin support. I disagree with some of their campaign choices. I disagree with Palin's stated support for a "two-state solution," unless she defines it differently from the Bush Administration. I disagreed with some of John McCain's previous legislative efforts. I also admit Biden did make some good points. Clearly he is more experienced and more of a policy wonk. Palin's been running for national office for five weeks, whereas Biden has been running there for 30 years. On the whole, Governor Palin beat him soundly. Of course, it matters most what the fence sitters think because there's no way I'm ever changing my vote to Osama-Biden, nor would you change yours.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Oct 3, 2008 at 02:24 AM. )

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TheWOAT
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Oct 3, 2008, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Positively affect the negative impacts of global warming through actions to combat it. It wasn't incoherent. Perhaps not as artful as some others may have put it, but it wasn't incoherent.

Wow, you guys are really terrifically tough on her. She obviously won the debate. She displayed a good grasp of the issues, stayed on the offensive, spoke authoritatively, smoothly and passionately in a way that will resonate with non-partisans. Biden came across as tired, pessimistic and smug, a characteristic he shares with the top of his ticket. Could she have done better on a few of the issues? Sure. But on the whole her performance was almost the best anyone could have asked for. If you can't give her credit where it's due you know you're a blind, hopeless partisan.
Biden had a couple AlGore style grunts and gasps, then he learned to just smile..but he started out poorly, while Palin started out very strong but then seemed to lose her posture and get tired towards the end... I dont see how either candidate won outright. Palin had lame responses with the "there ya go talkin about the past" when Biden was critical of BUsh, and Palin seemed to push the maverick talk a little too much, and seemed to speak of McCain as some sort of savior.. Biden was mediocre to start and seemed flustered (at the time I thought he was going to pull a Gore 2.0), then settled in and was patient and most of his rebuttals were good... the time he almost choked up seemed sincere... If this debate was 45 minutes, then Palin wins easily, but Biden fought back and made it ANOTHER boring election debate. I thought it was never going to end.
     
PaperNotes
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Oct 3, 2008, 05:51 AM
 
I must admit even though I'm not into American politicians, Sarah Palin is a hot milf lol who must be voted in!

( Last edited by PaperNotes; Jan 9, 2018 at 06:36 AM. )
     
PaperNotes
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Oct 3, 2008, 05:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
My observations ....

1. Sarah Palin managed not to come across as clueless and incoherent as she has done in her recent interviews.

OAW
But at least you know where she stands. With Obama you can't figure out anything. He keeps saying "change" but isn't describing any manifesto in detail and all his views are a murky grey area. A beggar is easier to understand when they ask for change.
( Last edited by PaperNotes; Jan 9, 2018 at 06:36 AM. )
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 06:16 AM
 
     
ebuddy
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Oct 3, 2008, 06:59 AM
 
Once again, I'm flummoxed. I'm out here all by myself. I thought Palin came off as "in way over her head" in which case I'd have never thought OldManMac and I had anything agreeable between us. It was truly the first thought that popped into my head last night.

Look, I like Palin. I like that she's a strong figure in her household and in her community. I like that she's tenacious and bold and one cannot argue her approval rating as governor. She has some solid core values that I think resonate well with the public, but I would've thought this not the arena for amateurs. She really did come off as over-rehearsed and amateurish. It's not good when you're wishing you were arguing Biden at the other podium.

Palin seems to have staved off certain McCain defeat, though quite possibly by the skin of her teeth. It seems to have worked and I haven't a clue how. I'm open to suggestions from others, but man... it was frankly hard to watch.

Biden on the other hand, while solid delivery is likely giving factcheck an hernia right now. I have a hunch that more than half the "numbers" Biden was spewing will be ditched from Obama at their next debate.

Advice to McCain/Palin. Palin needs to arrange a townhall within the next 15 days between her and Biden. Someone had mentioned this last night and while I forget who it was (I was switching back and forth between news channels because I couldn't believe I was alone in thinking Palin botched this one bad), she needs to bone up on some core differences between them. She said it was fun, show it by offering to do it again.

In the above townhall and in the next Presidential debates, challenge Obama/Biden more effectively on their disconnect on the biggies like... war. When to engage it, when not to engage it, how to engage it, and how to end it. It doesn't do any good to engage Biden in a debate with Republicans, encourage them to debate one another. If they can't agree on war, seemingly the central theme of their talking points last night, what can they agree on?

Biden taught us that you can come with numbers and neither side will know how the other twisted them. Excellent. Bring the numbers. Barrage them both with numbers. Never let up. The more numbers the better. It doesn't matter if they're correct, just give 'em.

I was going to give Biden a hard time about getting choked up thinking; there's no way this would be viewed as a strength for Palin if it had happened to her. I thought his emotion was genuine and a little refreshing. However, one could argue that he's a little "too invested"? Not sure how that'll play out. The fact of the matter is that because Palin was able to walk with an upright gait to the podium, stand there without fainting, and actually engage Biden directly; she scored pretty highly with most. I say the judgments of the left (for the most part) on Palin's performance have been fair.
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Paco500
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Oct 3, 2008, 07:03 AM
 
I have not seen the whole debate, only clips, but it looks like perhaps may have managed to move up from being a drag on the ticket to simply an embrassment but ultimately a non-factor- Quayle style.
     
villalobos
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Oct 3, 2008, 07:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
But at least you know where she stands. With Obama you can't figure out anything. He keeps saying "change" but isn't describing any manifesto in detail and all his views are a murky grey area. A beggar is easier to understand when they ask for change.
She was debating Biden yesterday, notObama. This is who you should compare her to. Not that it matter though, Sidney McCain won't win this election anyways, and she will disappear back to Alaska.
     
villalobos
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Oct 3, 2008, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Once again, I'm flummoxed. I'm out here all by myself. I thought Palin came off as "in way over her head" in which case I'd have never thought OldManMac and I had anything agreeable between us. It was truly the first thought that popped into my head last night.

Look, I like Palin. I like that she's a strong figure in her household and in her community. I like that she's tenacious and bold and one cannot argue her approval rating as governor. She has some solid core values that I think resonate well with the public, but I would've thought this not the arena for amateurs. She really did come off as over-rehearsed and amateurish. It's not good when you're wishing you were arguing Biden at the other podium.

Palin seems to have staved off certain McCain defeat, though quite possibly by the skin of her teeth. It seems to have worked and I haven't a clue how. I'm open to suggestions from others, but man... it was frankly hard to watch.

Biden on the other hand, while solid delivery is likely giving factcheck an hernia right now. I have a hunch that more than half the "numbers" Biden was spewing will be ditched from Obama at their next debate.

Advice to McCain/Palin. Palin needs to arrange a townhall within the next 15 days between her and Biden. Someone had mentioned this last night and while I forget who it was (I was switching back and forth between news channels because I couldn't believe I was alone in thinking Palin botched this one bad), she needs to bone up on some core differences between them. She said it was fun, show it by offering to do it again.

In the above townhall and in the next Presidential debates, challenge Obama/Biden more effectively on their disconnect on the biggies like... war. When to engage it, when not to engage it, how to engage it, and how to end it. It doesn't do any good to engage Biden in a debate with Republicans, encourage them to debate one another. If they can't agree on war, seemingly the central theme of their talking points last night, what can they agree on?

Biden taught us that you can come with numbers and neither side will know how the other twisted them. Excellent. Bring the numbers. Barrage them both with numbers. Never let up. The more numbers the better. It doesn't matter if they're correct, just give 'em.

I was going to give Biden a hard time about getting choked up thinking; there's no way this would be viewed as a strength for Palin if it had happened to her. I thought his emotion was genuine and a little refreshing. However, one could argue that he's a little "too invested"? Not sure how that'll play out. The fact of the matter is that because Palin was able to walk with an upright gait to the podium, stand there without fainting, and actually engage Biden directly; she scored pretty highly with most. I say the judgments of the left (for the most part) on Palin's performance have been fair.
Very good analysis there. I agree that she seemed to "mechanical". What bugs me with it is that in spite of regurgitating talking points from the campaign (which is what she is supposed to do), she was not able to come across as knowledgeable on them. Her speech level and her mannerism (the winks!!) reminded more of a game show that a political tribune. She is either unable to raise it, or she is deliberatly taking a populistic attitude.
Granted Biden was also giving his polished scripted answers, but he actually sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Most of the time anyways, I think he does not grasp the economic debacle either but again, who does?.

She was painful to watch in my opinion. She did better than the interviews in that there was no follow up by the moderator on her non answers. But overall there was not much substance. And certainly nothing that tells me that she would be of any use as a US VP. I guess I should be happy about it, since it means that Obama will get the nod.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 07:38 AM
 
Palin held her own against the biggest mouth in the Senate who is a life-long politician who has an answer (mostly untruths) about everything. If "winning" is spouting the most numbers and showing how big a brain you have, than I'd take a loser who is right on the issues over a big brain every time.

Despite her detractors assuring us that Sarah Palin couldn't string two sentences together, she did a good job after only a few weeks of preparation. Joe has had about two years of running for President to prepare. He should have wiped the floor with her, but didn't.

"I'd like to thank the Commission for allowing me to speak directly to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media"? No dear. There was no filter in your recent interviews.
Wrong. The media IS the filter. Her last 2 interviews where she faced an antagonistic TV personality looking for a "gotcha" pop quiz flub, while in at least one case (probably the other a well) editing the interview in order to create a dishonest spin on a question, was most definitely a "filter" to her beliefs. They weren't interviews. They were not the kind of discussions that Biden has ever had to face on Prime Time. When has he been in Prime Time defending his ties to lobbyists? When has he had to talk about his long-term problem with plagiarism? When has he been grilled on controversial issues in the same way Palin has?

The debate was the first time Palin was asked questions and had the opportunity to answer fairly, the same way as the guy on the other side of the aisle. Despite the left telling us she was incapable of discussing the issues and lacked any basic knowledge, she proved that wasn't the case.

Again, if lack of experience is a barrier to being Vice President, it should be as well to being President. If all you have to do is give speeches and do decent at debates, Palin is every bit as experienced as Obama and she's running for the #2 spot, not the top of the ticket. It's funny seeing people getting their panties in a bunch about this sort of thing while the guy who they support looks like a liberal noob in comparison to the guy he's running against.
     
TheMosco  (op)
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Oct 3, 2008, 08:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Palin held her own against the biggest mouth in the Senate who is a life-long politician who has an answer (mostly untruths) about everything. If "winning" is spouting the most numbers and showing how big a brain you have, than I'd take a loser who is right on the issues over a big brain every time.

Despite her detractors assuring us that Sarah Palin couldn't string two sentences together, she did a good job after only a few weeks of preparation. Joe has had about two years of running for President to prepare. He should have wiped the floor with her, but didn't.



Wrong. The media IS the filter. Her last 2 interviews where she faced an antagonistic TV personality looking for a "gotcha" pop quiz flub, while in at least one case (probably the other a well) editing the interview in order to create a dishonest spin on a question, was most definitely a "filter" to her beliefs. They weren't interviews. They were not the kind of discussions that Biden has ever had to face on Prime Time. When has he been in Prime Time defending his ties to lobbyists? When has he had to talk about his long-term problem with plagiarism? When has he been grilled on controversial issues in the same way Palin has?

The debate was the first time Palin was asked questions and had the opportunity to answer fairly, the same way as the guy on the other side of the aisle. Despite the left telling us she was incapable of discussing the issues and lacked any basic knowledge, she proved that wasn't the case.

Again, if lack of experience is a barrier to being Vice President, it should be as well to being President. If all you have to do is give speeches and do decent at debates, Palin is every bit as experienced as Obama and she's running for the #2 spot, not the top of the ticket. It's funny seeing people getting their panties in a bunch about this sort of thing while the guy who they support looks like a liberal noob in comparison to the guy he's running against.
By answer fairly, do you mean not answer them at all? The reason why she didn't look incoherent is because when she didn't answer the questions. There wasn't anyone there to make her answer it.

You might look at her ability to not answer questions using the same talking points she always uses as a win, but I don't.
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villalobos
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Oct 3, 2008, 08:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
The debate was the first time Palin was asked questions and had the opportunity to answer fairly, the same way as the guy on the other side of the aisle. Despite the left telling us she was incapable of discussing the issues and lacked any basic knowledge, she proved that wasn't the case.
No she did not. She just said what she was told, the same way she did in interviews. The only difference is that there were no follow ups on her irrelevant answers. So i guess that made her look better. But it's hard to say from yesterday's performance what makes you think she is is indeed able to discuss the problems at hand or has any basic knowledge on foreing affairs.
( Last edited by villalobos; Oct 3, 2008 at 08:54 AM. )
     
stupendousman
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Oct 3, 2008, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by TheMosco View Post
By answer fairly, do you mean not answer them at all? The reason why she didn't look incoherent is because when she didn't answer the questions. There wasn't anyone there to make her answer it.
Who was moderating? I heard at least once were the moderator mentioned that neither candidate answered her question and that she was going to follow-up. The one time people keep talking about where she said she wasn't going to answer (because she wanted to refute an earlier point) she went back and answered.

You might look at her ability to not answer questions using the same talking points she always uses as a win, but I don't.
You mean like Joe Biden always going back to his talking points of McCain voting with Bush regardless of the topic, and Ifill even helping him by making Palin defend Bush?

Not only did Joe keep up that tact, the moderator helped him.

Originally Posted by villalobos View Post
No she did not. She just said waht she was told, the same way she did in interviews. The only difference is that there was no follow ups on her irrelevant answers. So i guess that made her look better.
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Oct 3, 2008, 08:41 AM
 
Clearly, some people here are only going to see the wins from one person and the failures from the other. I haven't watched the debate, but the most interesting and insightful comments I've seen are those from the Right are critical of Palin and those from the Left critical of Biden.
     
Dakar V
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:02 AM
 
I was watching, but I missed Biden getting "choked up". What happened?
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
I must admit even though I'm not into American politicians, Sarah Palin is a hot milf lol who must be voted in!

That is so photoshopped.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
I was watching, but I missed Biden getting "choked up". What happened?
He talked a bit at the end about when his wife and daughter was killed in that car crash, and about having to raise his two sons afterwards. It was meant as a bit of a counterpunch to the "Joe Sixpack" comments he had been getting all debate long, to make the point that although he has had a very nice career in the Senate, he could still relate to the needs of ordinary Americans.

Talking about the accident still stings for him. It must be hard, even for a Senator known for his ability to talk about anything.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
I was watching, but I missed Biden getting "choked up". What happened?
He was talking about the fact he was a single parent raising his two remaining children after his wife and one child died in a car crash.
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:15 AM
 
I don't think either one "won". Both got in really good shots from time to time, and both had times when their defense of their man at the top floundered. Biden appeared more at ease with the issues, which should be expected - he's been doing this for a couple years now as a Presidential candidate.

Given that she's only had a couple of weeks to prepare, Palin shows she's capable of digesting the issues and speaking coherently on them. Those who hate her were wrong when they claimed she couldn't string 2 sentences together.

Given that Joe performed as expected, but didn't wipe the floor with someone who has had a couple of weeks to prepare, I don't see how her performance can be panned. She did better than expected and didn't have any major gaffes which would lead one to believe that she lacked the intelligence to serve in office. The fact that Joe Biden can speak for hours about any topic, especially when that topic is about himself, isn't a suprise.

I don't think that's a partisan take on the issue. It's not always about adding up the tally on the scorecard.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Who was moderating? I heard at least once were the moderator mentioned that neither candidate answered her question and that she was going to follow-up. The one time people keep talking about where she said she wasn't going to answer (because she wanted to refute an earlier point) she went back and answered.

You mean like Joe Biden always going back to his talking points of McCain voting with Bush regardless of the topic, and Ifill even helping him by making Palin defend Bush?
I guess we watched a different debate. Time and time ago, Palin didn't answer the questions with any type of depth.

I have already admitted, I though stylistically she didn't do too bad. I am trying not to be partition here. But at the end of the day, I think Biden summed it up the best when he pointed out that he hadn't heard how Palin/McCain were different than George Bush healthcare and all those other topics. He even said, maybe there are differences, but Palin wasn't able to articulate them. I came away knowing where Biden/Obama stand, and I don't think you can say the same with McCain/Palin.



To address the point of bringing up the comparison to Bush on votes. I think thats different. If you are talking about a subject that many consider a failed policy by Bush, and you don't see a contrast between your opponent, I think that's only good strategy pointing that out. I mean that's their slogan, change.

However, Palin used her talking points to completely ignore answering questions with any type of depth.
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
I must admit even though I'm not into American politicians, Sarah Palin is a hot milf lol who must be voted in!
It's pretty sad if that's your criteria and explains much about the current state of American politics if others share your shrewd evaluation of your candidates.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by TheMosco View Post
To address the point of bringing up the comparison to Bush on votes. I think thats different. If you are talking about a subject that many consider a failed policy by Bush, and you don't see a contrast between your opponent, I think that's only good strategy pointing that out. I mean that's their slogan, change.
More-so if your opponent is running on a campaign of being a "maverick".
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sealobo View Post
Sarah Palin is a major question-dodger.
That's what happens when you cram for 2 weeks just to be able to respond to a question.

Originally Posted by TheMosco View Post
She is waaaaaaaaaaaay out of her league.
She was, but she held her own. I was actually very suprised. Even though she didn't have a strong grasp of the topics, she still mananged (when she actually responded to a question) to make it look like she did.

Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
I'm glad she did a much better job at making less of a fool of herself, but she's still in way over her head.
I agree. Although she certainly came across as likeable and didn't say anything really stupid, she kept falling back to things she was confortable with, even if they had nothing to do with the question asked. And my God, how many times did she say "I'm a Maverick", "John is a Maverick", or "We are Mavericks"? That got old really quick.

IMHO, it terms of substance Biden won. In terms of likeability, Palin won.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:32 AM
 
I actually found Biden more likable for the same reason I find McCain more likable.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I actually found Biden more likable for the same reason I find McCain more likable.
Yeah, I have had mixed feelings about Biden. I wish that Obama had picked Clinton, but I think Biden did a pretty good job. There were a couple times where he got a little too detailed, like when he was describing the McCain health care tax situation. But then again, I personally like to see more detail then less detail.
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Dakar V
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:54 AM
 
Notable moments for me:

• Palin having a Cartman like moment ("Whatever! I'll do what I want!") regarding being forthright in the debate.
• Biden's soul-sucking sighs, though he did do a nice job of introducing some unintentional comedy when he capped them by turning on his "I'm enjoying a 12" Turd Sandwich" level ****-eating grin.
• Biden, correcting himself when he said a word correctly, only to recorrect himself. I thought the wheels were coming off at that point. (They didn't though)
• Biden, trying to play the Bush card far, far too often.
• The moment where Palin paused for two seconds to recall the soundbyte/phrase the McCain campaign gave her to rebut Biden on some particular issue. The level of "contrivity" for the moment was scale rocking, even in respect tot he rest of her statements.
• Palin mentioning her love of unfiltered access without a trace of irony.

As far as performance quality, I thought this was a mirror of the McCain/Obama debate, with Biden as McCain and Palin Obama. I thought Palin knocked it out of the park to start, but starting running out of steam by half-way through, while Biden looked shaky early on, but got his legs under him after a while.

-----

Honestly, from my side of political spectrum, I thought the most mind-blowing statement of the night was when Biden dropped the bomb on where he and Obama stood on gay marriage. Not only was as succinct and straight-forward as you'll ever hear from a politician, but it fell in lock and step with the right-wing line. If I were a conservative, I'd have gotten a wry smile from this. It's obvious somewhere in the heart of the Democratic party, some people blame the 04 loss to the anti-gay marriage voter mobilization, and are scared to death it could happen again.
     
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Oct 3, 2008, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
Honestly, from my side of political spectrum, I thought the most mind-blowing statement of the night was when Biden dropped the bomb on where he and Obama stood on gay marriage. Not only was as succinct and straight-forward as you'll ever hear from a politician, but it fell in lock and step with the right-wing line. If I were a conservative, I'd have gotten a wry smile from this. It's obvious somewhere in the heart of the Democratic party, some people blame the 04 loss to the anti-gay marriage voter mobilization, and are scared to death it could happen again.
I cringed when it became clear that he was doing everything he could to not say the word "marriage" in his answer, but in the end he finally let it slip.

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Oct 3, 2008, 10:09 AM
 
She because she didn't eff up during a well-choreographed event doesn't make her qualified.
IMO it's still an indication of McCain's character to choose someone who isn't nearly as qualified as other potential running mates, because her `story' is more important than her `qualification'.
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Oct 3, 2008, 10:28 AM
 
     
 
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