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Election 2020 (Page 9)
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OreoCookie
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Jan 7, 2021, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I agree it was too easy, but feel there stupidity explanations. Chiefly, they weren’t expecting it because the right wing is pro-cop, and before yesterday, seemed only to get out of line with Antifa.
We should wait. Usually the simplest, most straightforward explanation is the right one. Just because law enforcement tends to support Trump and the GOP doesn’t mean they like to be rushed by a mob. Once it is you (and a few colleagues) against tens and hundreds of protestors, I reckon you don’t think about who you voted for anymore.

PS I read that some on the right “conjectured” that this was a false flag operation by Antifa. Ugh.
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subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 09:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
We should wait. Usually the simplest, most straightforward explanation is the right one. Just because law enforcement tends to support Trump and the GOP doesn’t mean they like to be rushed by a mob. Once it is you (and a few colleagues) against tens and hundreds of protestors, I reckon you don’t think about who you voted for anymore.

PS I read that some on the right “conjectured” that this was a false flag operation by Antifa. Ugh.
What I meant is they weren’t expecting to get rushed, so they didn’t come prepared for it. If they thought shit might hit the fan, they would have been in riot gear, and asked someone like the Park Service (who I imagine regularly does crowd control) for extra boots on the ground.

To put it another way, I’m positing the most simple explanation is the Capitol Police got blindsided by a crowd they a expected to be far more orderly.


I don’t mind the Antifa conjecture when information is scarce, and I saw lots of misinformation floating around, such as cropped pictures of Viking guy trying to make him look like Antifa.

However, at this point, it’s pretty frigging obvious there was little or no Antifa involvement. Apart from people who can be easily identified as right-wingers, it just wasn’t Antifa’s MO. That they’re even identifiable is part of the MO. Antifa tries really hard to stay unidentifiable, right-wingers don’t.

Further, I want to see how anyone can blame Antifa and then also call Babbit a martyr.



P.S. I still want to address the earlier meta issues, but hope you will accept an apology for the numerous times I’ve inappropriately snapped, and my promise it won’t happen again.
     
reader50
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Jan 7, 2021, 09:55 PM
 
re: crimes.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So far it’s been unlawful entry, resisting arrest, assault, and firearms violations (carrying pistol without a license and unregistered ammunition). Mostly unlawful entry.
Let's not forget vandalism. They busted a lot of stuff. Furniture, congressional offices, office windows, the doors to both Chambers. Also, they took souvenirs. From the offices, from the chambers. Haven't heard if they stole any artwork from the walls.

There may be charges related to accessing classified data. Some offices were evacuated so fast, staffers were unable to log out of accounts. In the linked story, a staffer in Speaker Pelosi's office had left their computer logged into their email account. The computer itself was left in a logged-in state.
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 10:08 PM
 
I was reading off the current list of people who were arrested, and don’t remember seeing any vandalism/destruction of property/theft charges.

Those things obviously occurred, but no one had been pinched for it yet.

I’ve been told, though I don’t know if it’s true, there won’t be anything classified on the office computers, but I’m sure there’s some extra charge for trying to access the computer.
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 10:41 PM
 
Hearing the Chief of the Capitol Police resigned, which is as it should be.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 7, 2021, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What I meant is they weren’t expecting to get rushed, so they didn’t come prepared for it. If they thought shit might hit the fan, they would have been in riot gear, and asked someone like the Park Service (who I imagine regularly does crowd control) for extra boots on the ground.

To put it another way, I’m positing the most simple explanation is the Capitol Police got blindsided by a crowd they a expected to be far more orderly.
Oh, I agree with you. I don’t think we should be too harsh at the moment, and even if the mayor did not ask for the military in the streets, given her experience during the BLM protests, I think this is perfectly understandable. Politically, the head of the DC Police took the right step, even if we can argue whether he could have done something differently, he bears the political responsibility. Few politicians these days resign to take political responsibility, so also here I am ok with that.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don’t mind the Antifa conjecture when information is scarce, and I saw lots of misinformation floating around, such as cropped pictures of Viking guy trying to make him look like Antifa.
I think it is plainly BS and the people who popularize this myth know it is BS. And that’s dangerous.
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subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
...and even if the mayor did not ask for the military in the streets, given her experience during the BLM protests, I think this is perfectly understandable. Politically, the head of the DC Police took the right step, even if we can argue whether he could have done something differently, he bears the political responsibility. Few politicians these days resign to take political responsibility, so also here I am ok with that.
Important clarification.

There’s the Capitol Police, and DC Metro Police, which are different organizations.

Getting a little conspiratorial again, I think the Capitol Police may have intentionally left the Metro Police out of the loop. The Mayor of DC hates Trump.

Metro ended up getting called in later, and they did not **** around. I saw video of some pretty unquestionable brutality by the Metro Police after curfew.
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think it is plainly BS and the people who popularize this myth know it is BS. And that’s dangerous.
I feel early on there was potential cause to be mistaken, so I can cut a little slack for it. Intent is important. If someone honestly makes a mistake, I’m not going to place blame.

Again, however, at this point there’s not really an excuse. None of the supposed evidence holds up.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 04:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Important clarification.

There’s the Capitol Police, and DC Metro Police, which are different organizations.

Getting a little conspiratorial again, I think the Capitol Police may have intentionally left the Metro Police out of the loop. The Mayor of DC hates Trump.

Metro ended up getting called in later, and they did not **** around. I saw video of some pretty unquestionable brutality by the Metro Police after curfew.
Uff, that sounds complicated, and I didn't know that the different police departments are not on the same page.

My reaction was more aimed towards some of the reactions where people put the blame squarely with police for allowing this to happen “so easily”.

And I should have also added to my previous post: there are some videos where law enforcement officers (not sure which) seem to cooperate with the rioters, i. e. they seem to let them through barriers and take selfies with them. That's of course not ok and these individuals should be investigated and punished in accordance to the law.

The same goes if police officers were unnecessarily brutal to rioters. They are criminals, yes, but they are human beings. Treat them with dignity and respect, violence is not necessary if they do not pose a threat to you.

Also, if there was misconduct on the higher levels (such as rivalries between different police departments), this should be investigated after the dust has settled. But IMHO the bigger story is that Mike Pence (illegally?) oked the mobilization of the national guard, not President Trump.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I feel early on there was potential cause to be mistaken, so I can cut a little slack for it. Intent is important. If someone honestly makes a mistake, I’m not going to place blame.
It depends on who is talking, too, and someone who originates BS conspiracy theories bears a lot more responsibility than someone just parroting it. Nevertheless, at a certain point, though, we are all adults, and we have to be smart enough to see through some of the more transparently idiotic conspiracy theories.

(At best this was the doing of the best organized anarchists I have ever seen )
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Jan 8, 2021, 04:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Make of this what you will...reports are that Trump will be going to Camp David for the weekend. This a really odd move. He famously loathes Camp David, and I don’t think he’s actually been there over the past four years (maybe once?) It has the advantage of being relatively remote and really easy to secure, though. And, it’s not in DC. Nor is it a public facility like Mar-a-Lago.
It seems he wanted to fly to Scotland to play golf right after the transition, but the Scots don't let him in because of Covid.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 04:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
It seems he wanted to fly to Scotland to play golf right after the transition, but the Scots don't let him in because of Covid.
Hahahaha. This is really funny … if everything weren't so sad. I reckon he'll have to get used to being an “ordinary citizen” again. (I reckon there are exceptions for heads of states and diplomats to the travel restrictions.)
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Doc HM
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Jan 8, 2021, 04:52 AM
 
The riot seems to have at last put trump firmly beyond the pale. When you have Betsy DeVoss resigning as a matter of conscience (I imagine she had to be have the concept explained to her in detail) then you know the game is over. Suddenly and irrevocably Trump has zero utility to any of the ethics free gang who were supporting him for future political gain. Suddenly he is ALL downside.
Shame they didn’t make that choice for anything other than careerist motives.
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Jan 8, 2021, 05:56 AM
 
DeVos doesn’t have a conscience. If she is resigning, it is because it is politically smart to do so right now.
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Doc HM
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Jan 8, 2021, 06:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
DeVos doesn’t have a conscience. If she is resigning, it is because it is politically smart to do so right now.
Absolutely. It's amusing to see the zero morals brigade jumping ship the second Trump's future value slides to zero. The fact that they are claiming to have finally noticed the moral vacuum at the heart of their party is funny. Of course they haven't noticed because they ARE the moral vacuum.
Cruz seems to be holding out so far though. That's likely the end of his career.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 07:39 AM
 
These people are desperately trying to salvage their reputation. To be honest, I don’t think it matters, it’s too late. And I think if you have been with Trump up until then, certainly knowing more than we do, knowing what he is saying on the inside, and you still stuck to him, IMHO you deserve to have that on your report card.

Ditto for Mitch McConnell who has been part of Trump’s support system the whole time, and whose cynical approach to governing made someone like Trump more likely. When his legacy is discussed, there’ll be images of the riots.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 8, 2021, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I feel early on there was potential cause to be mistaken, so I can cut a little slack for it. Intent is important. If someone honestly makes a mistake, I’m not going to place blame.
No one made an honest mistake. It's not like the crowd mysteriously appeared out of the ether. They were at Trump's rally. Then, at his encouragement, marched over to the Capitol and attacked the building. The Antifa spin is just that; spin. Cold, calculated, dishonest, political spin, and not anything close to a mistake.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Cruz seems to be holding out so far though. That's likely the end of his career.
I don’t know. I wish you were right, but I think Cruz intends to mine the same vein as trump. And Cruz hasn’t been liked by his colleagues it seems either, even way before Trump came onto the political scene. It is a risk, but a calculated one that could pay off. Seeing how stable Trump’s approval numbers have been, I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t enough people there.

The other thing is that we should keep in mind what things might look like in 10 years. I don’t want to invoke Godwin’s law, but in 1923 Hitler was arrested for attempting to overthrow the government. 10 years later he was chancellor.
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Laminar
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Jan 8, 2021, 10:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Further, I want to see how anyone can blame Antifa and then also call Babbit a martyr.
Current theories being pushed by the top minds on the BMW forums:

- It was antifa. Look at these pictures of four people that someone told me are antifa, they're definitely antifa. It's antifa. Two of them! They started all of this!

- The media doesn't care that the woman was killed simply because she was white. If she was black, everyone would be VERY MAD. White people are THE VICTIMS HERE. And I quote:

And an unarmed woman was shot and killed. No outrage. Just because she broke some glass. Now, because she was a Trump supporter..........."she got what she deserved."

That's the narrative now.
- Pictures and memes of Democrats responding to and encouraging the BLM protests, overlayed with images of buildings burning.

- Attacks on AOC, which are a given. I'm not sure what it would take for white conservative dudes to NOT attack AOC.
     
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Jan 8, 2021, 11:17 AM
 
devos resigned so she wouldn't have to vote as a cabinet member for article 25.
     
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Jan 8, 2021, 11:51 AM
 
Ben Sasse says he might vote for impeachment, if the articles of impeachment suit his taste. Still don’t think that will pass - even if they can seat Ossoff and Warnock and Romney is still on board, they need 15 more. We have the usual suspects of potential swing votes, but that won’t be even nearly enough. This needs Moscow Mitch coming out in support of it to bring over the big numbers, and I don’t see that.
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Jan 8, 2021, 12:24 PM
 
     
subego
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Jan 8, 2021, 02:28 PM
 
FWIU, this has been doctrine for awhile, and makes sense to me.

The only military who have training as cops are MPs. It is truly best for all involved for the NG only to provide support. You definitely do not want the military engaging violent civilians.
     
subego
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Jan 8, 2021, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
- The media doesn't care that the woman was killed simply because she was white. If she was black, everyone would be VERY MAD. White people are THE VICTIMS HERE. And I quote:
To put it bluntly, I’m sad she was killed, but she also... how does that go?

****ed around and found out.
     
Doc HM
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Jan 8, 2021, 07:51 PM
 
And now Twitter have perma-banned him, removing his favourite toy.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 8, 2021, 07:56 PM
 
And Reddit has banned its largest remaining Trump sub, r/donaldtrump.

Speaking of Reddit, you might want to mosey over to the r/byebyejob sub. They’re noting who’s losing their jobs over participating in the riot. It’s kind of cathartic.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 09:38 PM
 
What I am reading here is quite disturbing I have to say from so many angles. I hope there will be a Congressional inquiry about this after the President-elect Biden has been sworn in.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 09:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Speaking of Reddit, you might want to mosey over to the r/byebyejob sub. They’re noting who’s losing their jobs over participating in the riot. It’s kind of cathartic.
I’m a bit wary of that kind of activity, it feels like cheap revenge that satisfies our lizard brains.* And it makes us forget that the actual problem still persists. The riots in the Capitol are just the tip of the ice berg.

* I’m not speaking of legal proceedings, by all means, everyone who can be convicted of crimes during that day should. But I’m against what amounts to doxing.
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subego
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Jan 8, 2021, 10:38 PM
 
Never mind... I’m super slow.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 8, 2021, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
* I’m not speaking of legal proceedings, by all means, everyone who can be convicted of crimes during that day should. But I’m against what amounts to doxing.
Is it truly doxing, though, if these idiots are recording themselves ransacking the US Capitol and posting the vids for all to see? I’m not on board with actual doxing, but these fools are doing it to themselves, as far as I’m concerned.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 8, 2021, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Is it truly doxing, though, if these idiots are recording themselves ransacking the US Capitol and posting the vids for all to see? I’m not on board with actual doxing, but these fools are doing it to themselves, as far as I’m concerned.
If they publish videos and photos under their own name, then clearly no. If you advertise who you are and what you have done, then you are responsible for your own stupidity. Ditto if you are a public person like a politician.

But if someone identifies a co-worker and then spreads his or her true name together with enough information that the person becomes uniquely identifiable, then yes. Let law enforcement handle this for now — and keep an eye on law enforcement to make sure they are really doing their job. I don't need to know the real name of rioter 123 to see who he is and what they are doing.
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reader50
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Jan 9, 2021, 02:28 AM
 
A thumbs-up to the dude who wore his work ID badge while busting into the Capitol building. Also while being photographed by co-rioters. The company was able to recognize him, and he was fired.

Normally, I oppose companies who try to control employees while they're off work. Including their political speech. Like that woman who gave Trump the finger as his motorcade drove by, and was fired for it.

But ID-badge man does not have the right to parade the company logo around while doing crimes. I feel the company was within its rights to fire for it.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 9, 2021, 10:04 AM
 
Here's the thing...This wasn't a case of "drunk partiers get loud and stoopid on TikTok." Losing your job over that level of silliness would be uncalled for. This, though, was a crowd of people, many of them armed, storming the US Capitol with the intent of subverting the carrying-out of Constitutionally-mandated actions by Congress, and overturning a democratically-decided national election at the behest of the sitting (and defeated) President. That's unprecedented. It's a clear and very dangerous attack on our democracy and, imho, those involved deserve as much public shame and recrimination (and jail time) as can be heaped on them. That citizens are incensed enough to shame and punish their employees, coworkers, neighbors, and family members, I think, speaks to how dearly people actually still hold our system of government, even after decades of constant propaganda that government is evil and should be flushed down the drain.

We're very lucky these idiots were unsuccessful in accomplishing their aims. But, as a society, we need to make it abundantly clear that this garbage will not be tolerated in as many ways as necessary to drive home the message.

/soapbox

(I apologize for the above emotional rant. I'm just an old guy who has seen a lot of turmoil and violence in this country over his life. But, throughout it all, it always seemed like we came through the dark times a better nation and people, however slightly. But, the past four years, frankly, has scared the crap out of me, and Wednesday shocked me to my core. I've lived in places where it wasn't uncommon to see Klansmen in full garb marching down the street. I've been teargassed. I've lived through 2 Kennedy assassinations, Vietnam, MLK's assassination, Nixon, Watergate, Iran-Contra, OKC, 9/11, etc. and this week's events easily scared me more than any of them. )
     
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Jan 9, 2021, 02:37 PM
 
I doubt you're allowed to sack anyone for their political or personal opinions over here, employment law is very firmly weighted towards the employee on paper at least. If I were hiring people though, I'd want to hire decent people, not just people who are decent at their job. Especially if there is so much as the slightest contact between them and my customers (even just being in the same room/building as them). If I discover that someone working for me is a complete piece of shit, I'm going to assume that sooner or later, that attitude, behaviour or belief is going to cost me either cash or reputation or both. Plus I don't want to be rewarding people like that from my pocket and my hard work.
These people seem to think they should have the right to be assholes without consequence. They are only half right.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jan 9, 2021, 02:57 PM
 
while free speech etc might be a grey area, I imagine the "convicted felon" is a legit dealbreaker for many employers.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 9, 2021, 03:33 PM
 
In the US, where many (most?) states are "at will" states, anyone can be canned at any time, at the whim of the employer. Reasons are kept pretty non-specific for legal reasons, so "Because you invaded the Capitol" probably won't fly as a reason for termination. "Not a good fit" or "services no longer needed" are some of the usual go-tos.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 9, 2021, 05:49 PM
 
The Secretary of Defense (#5) now refers to Wednesday’s riot as “First Amendment Protests.”
     
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Jan 9, 2021, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Here's the thing...This wasn't a case of "drunk partiers get loud and stoopid on TikTok." Losing your job over that level of silliness would be uncalled for. This, though, was a crowd of people, many of them armed, storming the US Capitol with the intent of subverting the carrying-out of Constitutionally-mandated actions by Congress, and overturning a democratically-decided national election at the behest of the sitting (and defeated) President. That's unprecedented.
Agreed.
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
It's a clear and very dangerous attack on our democracy and, imho, those involved deserve as much public shame and recrimination (and jail time) as can be heaped on them.
More important than shame to me is to clearly show those people that these are not acceptable opinions to hold if they want to participate in ordinary life. Just like being a klansmen or hating gays. The nation’s immune system must kick into full gear.

While I am usually not one who calls for harsh penalties, this is an exception. In German, we have the expression that “justice is blind on the right eye”, and looking at the data the same is true in the US.
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
(I apologize for the above emotional rant. I'm just an old guy who has seen a lot of turmoil and violence in this country over his life. But, throughout it all, it always seemed like we came through the dark times a better nation and people, however slightly. But, the past four years, frankly, has scared the crap out of me, and Wednesday shocked me to my core. I've lived in places where it wasn't uncommon to see Klansmen in full garb marching down the street. I've been teargassed. I've lived through 2 Kennedy assassinations, Vietnam, MLK's assassination, Nixon, Watergate, Iran-Contra, OKC, 9/11, etc. and this week's events easily scared me more than any of them. )
I don’t think you need to apologize. Personally, I think this will be an event of a similar historical stature in the US than 9/11 or when the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain fell. What’s scarier is that it seems far more difficult to find a solution.
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Jan 10, 2021, 11:43 AM
 
No apologies needed, Thorz. This “event” was clearly an assault on the very foundation of our Republic.

On September 1, 1978, I took a solemn oath “to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” I repeated that oath several times over the ensuing 23 years. I have never been relieved of that duty. And unlike a whole lot of people who enlist “for educational benefits” or whatever, I actually READ both the oath and its meaning in historical context.

(Food for thought: Look here for an in-depth discussion of the oath. Note that FIRST we swear to support and defend the Constitution, and “orders of the President” is farther down AND nuanced by the Uniform Code of Military Justice - basically the UCMJ requires individuals to assess whether or not any order from anyone is or is not lawful...)

Historically, the United States has always sworn in anyone from elected Dog Catcher to the highest levels of government (and EVERY member of our military) exactly the same way: the Constitution is and always will be the highest authority of the land and what we vow allegiance to. Anyone who takes such an oath should understand how different it is from other countries’ oaths of allegiance. Not to “King and Country,” not to some cult of personality figure, but to the ideas upon which our nation was founded.

And on Thursday, a large number of supposedly intelligent, highly educated people (didn’t Hawley go to Yale Law?) acted in direct opposition to their oaths. None of that was new, just more of the same. But somehow these “smart people” had no idea that their low-IQ fan clubs could become mindless mobs of (paraphrasing Trae Crowder here) the most mayonnaise, special school dropout brutes, and actually storm the Capitol Building with guns, bombs and hands-on violence.

These instigators and rabble-rousers need to go. They need to resign or be forced from office. And their names need to be recalled in the same way Vidkun Quisling was. They need to be blacklisted by publishers and by those who book speaking engagements. They need whole sectors of industry to shun anything they have anything to do with. If this sounds like I’m suggesting “driving them before us, salting their fields and burning their cities,” you’re not wrong. They’ve become wealthy, fat and power-drunk from decades of abuse of position and power, and now is when the hangover should set in. And it should be a life-long hangover.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
ghporter
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Jan 10, 2021, 03:48 PM
 
I am pleased to be able to share this:
Arnold Schwarzenegger on the Insurrection. Wow.

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subego
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Jan 10, 2021, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
While I am usually not one who calls for harsh penalties, this is an exception. In German, we have the expression that “justice is blind on the right eye”, and looking at the data the same is true in the US.
Important clarification to the numbers she gave.

They’re off by an order of magnitude. It’s not 50% to 30% chance of police intervention, it’s 5% to 3%. I came very close to just giving up where her numbers came from until the mistake dawned on me.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 10, 2021, 05:55 PM
 
Arnie said it well.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 10, 2021, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Important clarification to the numbers she gave.

They’re off by an order of magnitude. It’s not 50% to 30% chance of police intervention, it’s 5% to 3%. I came very close to just giving up where her numbers came from until the mistake dawned on me.
I don’t think it is a mistake, I just think you are referring to different numbers than they do. If you go to the link they gave as the source of the data and scroll down to the figure titled “Use of Force by Law Enforcement in Demonstrations”, you see the 51 % vs. 34 %. I cannot find any bases for your figures, though. Where did you find them? Perhaps you are referring to different quantities.

PS I am not sure which 538 article I sent you, they have two. The one that contains all the hyperlink goodness is this one.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 10, 2021, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
And on Thursday, a large number of supposedly intelligent, highly educated people (didn’t Hawley go to Yale Law?) acted in direct opposition to their oaths. None of that was new, just more of the same. But somehow these “smart people” had no idea that their low-IQ fan clubs could become mindless mobs of (paraphrasing Trae Crowder here) the most mayonnaise, special school dropout brutes, and actually storm the Capitol Building with guns, bombs and hands-on violence.
Hawley isn’t just any Yale alum, he clerked for Chief Justice John Roberts at the Supreme Court. So he didn’t just get into Yale because his grandfather donated a building, you gotta be top-of-the-class. That’s a very long-winded way of saying that he knows the Constitution way better than most. Likewise, Cruz is academically very smart and my operating assumption that everything he does is deliberate. I find it hilarious-if-it-weren’t-true that these are the ones to save us from the elites.

That speaks to a larger issue: the ones bearing the brunt will be the fans who stormed the Capitol or believe in conspiracy theories that a six-year-old would question, because they are so laughably dumb.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
These instigators and rabble-rousers need to go. They need to resign or be forced from office. And their names need to be recalled in the same way Vidkun Quisling was. They need to be blacklisted by publishers and by those who book speaking engagements. They need whole sectors of industry to shun anything they have anything to do with. If this sounds like I’m suggesting “driving them before us, salting their fields and burning their cities,” you’re not wrong. They’ve become wealthy, fat and power-drunk from decades of abuse of position and power, and now is when the hangover should set in. And it should be a life-long hangover.
The most important aspect of this is IMHO that they be removed from office and be barred from holding (at least federal) elected office. This has a constitutional basis in the 14th Amendment, unfortunately, but I don’t think this is remotely realistic.
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subego
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Jan 10, 2021, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I cannot find any bases for your figures, though. Where did you find them?
I downloaded the ACLED Excel file.

There are 9,379 entries classified as protests with BLM listed up-front as the first associated actor. Police intervened in 454 of them. That’s 4.84%. I don’t have the slightest clue where they got 50% from unless they misplaced the decimal point.

My numbers could be slightly off. I was kinda quick and dirty culling the data, but I’m not an order of magnitude off. I mean, I can take literally every single entry in the database not classified as peaceful protest, regardless of BLM or police involvement, and it would still only constitute 22% of the BLM protest total.

I can give more numbers, but those are the important ones.

Of course, I could be missing something, and I understand the position I’m putting myself in by declaring them wrong. They’re professionals, and I’m just some rando on the Internet, but I was incapable of even deliberately fudging the numbers anywhere close to what they’re claiming.
( Last edited by subego; Jan 11, 2021 at 02:28 AM. )
     
subego
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Jan 11, 2021, 12:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I can’t let a Quisling reference go without pointing out he’s a dead ringer for a certain former White House Press Secretary.

     
OreoCookie
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Jan 11, 2021, 09:09 AM
 
First of all, your “quisling” photo is gold!
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I downloaded the ACLED Excel file.

There are 9,379 entries classified as protests with BLM listed up-front as the first associated actor. Police intervened in 454 of them. That’s 4.84%. I don’t have the slightest clue where they got 50% from unless they misplaced the decimal point.
You’re quite thorough. But usually raw data is a bit tricky to work with unless you know precisely what figures they give. Perhaps a look at the text helps just above the relevant figure clear things up (emphasis mine):
Demonstrations associated with the right-wing have been met with law enforcement intervention far less frequently relative to BLM-linked demonstrations: under 4% of events, compared to nearly 10% of events.When authorities have engaged demonstrations associated with BLM, they have used force — such as firing less-lethal weapons like tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepper spray or beating demonstrators with batons — more than 51% of the time, compared to only 34% for right-wing demonstrations (see graph below).10
The higher percentages are the ratio of violence-to-engagement. I don’t know what non-violent engagement precisely means (I reckon it includes instances where protestors are blocked, but not shot at with tear gas or so). The numbers seem to be different from yours, and since I am on my iPad, I haven’t had a look at the raw data. Nevertheless, if we only look at order of magnitudes, the data seems to line up once you know what it actually means.

I grant you this is a tricky distinction. But if the data is correct, then law enforcement has a much more aggressive towards stance towards BLM protestors than right-wing protestors with 2.5 times the engagement. Not only that, you have to compound that with a roughly 50 % higher likelihood of use-of-force.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Of course, I could be missing something, and I understand the position I’m putting myself in by declaring them wrong. They’re professionals, and I’m just some rando on the Internet, but I was incapable of even deliberately fudging the numbers anywhere close to what they’re claiming.
I find it commendable that you are going back to the original data. However, it seems that reading the text carefully might have prevented unnecessary skepticism.
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Doc HM
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Jan 11, 2021, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can’t let a Quisling reference go without pointing out he’s a dead ringer for a certain former White House Press Secretary.

I had no idea that was where the word Quisling came from. Should also go in the today I learned post.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 11, 2021, 10:26 AM
 
It appears Parler has imploded like a neutron star. Various webservices they had been using have dropped them, including one called Twilio, which handled security authentications for users. Here's a Reddit thread explaining the snowball effect that loss has created. [SIZE="1"][COLOR="Silver"] And, here's a Gizmodo link explaining what's happened.

TL/DR: Hackers gave themselves Admin rights and downloaded TBs of data from Parler, including user data, every discussion ever posted, and all media ever posted, even if they've been deleted by the users.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 11, 2021, 12:42 PM
 
That...is amazing.
     
Laminar
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Jan 11, 2021, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
while free speech etc might be a grey area
It's not. The first amendment protects (most) speech against government intervention. What these Republican/conservative/Trump dumbasses fail to realize is that the first amendment has absolutely no bearing on your employment by a private corporation. Unless you're in a protected class (and if you're voting for Trump, you very likely aren't), you can be fired at any time for any (or no) reason.

Your employment has absolutely nothing to do with free speech.
     
 
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