[Tuoder]

So I was reading a good deal of Wikipedia articles today, and I came across these two, which were of particular interest to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ..._vegetarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat

I have been considering cutting out my support of animal cruelty by eating all-organic. Then, I came accross the article about how animal farming is bad for the environment. I already drive no car and am seeking to reduce my CO2 output through various other means. What I wonder is, knowing the ill effects of meat-eating, does it make sense to keep a cruelty-free diet, a vegetarian diet, a vegan diet, or no change at all?

[Shaddim]

Cruelty free for me.

I'm too much of a carnivore to ever go completely veggie. However, I am down to eating meat once /day (and red meat maybe twice /week).

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Cruelty free for me.

I'm too much of a carnivore to ever go completely veggie. However, I am down to eating meat once /day (and red meat maybe twice /week).

Do you buy organic/free range?

[GSixZero]

Just like no country admits to torture, but lots do it, no farm will admit to being cruel to it's animals.

While I agree that cruelty free meat is a great idea (and is something I try to practice), I don't look forward to trying to decide what that actually means.

[BRussell]

I figure that once we end all human suffering then we can start working on other species.

[RAILhead]

I always tell my cows jokes and stuff, just to get them laughing a little bit – and then I slit their throat.

They have no idea it's coming.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat

That's a pretty well-structured web-page, with it's argument-rebuttals arraignment.

Anyway, I have no intention of changing my omnivorous ways. I love meat, and some animals just seem to lack any purpose other than being eaten (cattle, I'm looking at you and licking my lips).

[Atheist]

Nothing compares to a tender filet mignon. If given the chance, I'd eat red meat every day. For me it's simple... I have a limited number of years on this planet.. and I'm going to enjoy them... as long as I don't cause any harm to other humans. Animals... I'm not too concerned about.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

So I was reading a good deal of Wikipedia articles today, and I came across these two, which were of particular interest to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ..._vegetarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat

I have been considering cutting out my support of animal cruelty by eating all-organic. Then, I came accross the article about how animal farming is bad for the environment. I already drive no car and am seeking to reduce my CO2 output through various other means. What I wonder is, knowing the ill effects of meat-eating, does it make sense to keep a cruelty-free diet, a vegetarian diet, a vegan diet, or no change at all?

If a viable alternative existed to cruelly-killed animals I would jump at it but frankly I don't think the cruelly-killed cow would mind if I ate him. At a certain point how much dignity an animal was given ceases to matter and that point for me is when I'm eating it.

Humans are bad for the environment. Technically killing myself would reduce CO2 output by quite a bit not to mention all the other benefits.

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I figure that once we end all human suffering then we can start working on other species.

Ending factory farming now helps to stop human suffereing later, by reducing green-house gas emmissions. Also, I find it to be quite possuble to do both at the same time, with the detriment o one to the other.

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I always tell my cows jokes and stuff, just to get them laughing a little bit – and then I slit their throat.

They have no idea it's coming.

That's.....expected.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

That's a pretty well-structured web-page, with it's argument-rebuttals arraignment.

Anyway, I have no intention of changing my omnivorous ways. I love meat, and some animals just seem to lack any purpose other than being eaten (cattle, I'm looking at you and licking my lips).

I like the page a lot. I agree that cattle, among other animals were intentioned to be eaten by their creator. Where I have the problem is that I don't think they were intended to live in the manner that they are forced to live in.

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Nothing compares to a tender filet mignon. If given the chance, I'd eat red meat every day. For me it's simple... I have a limited number of years on this planet.. and I'm going to enjoy them... as long as I don't cause any harm to other humans. Animals... I'm not too concerned about.

Factory farming harms future humans through the production of greenhouse gases. Also, Annmal farming is a terribly food-inefficient process. If the grain America produced were diverted to, say, Africa, there would be a good deal less starvation, that is to say, none.

Originally Posted by invisibleX 

If a viable alternative existed to cruelly-killed animals I would jump at it but frankly I don't think the cruelly-killed cow would mind if I ate him. At a certain point how much dignity an animal was given ceases to matter and that point for me is when I'm eating it.

Organic food is the alternative. By your logic, you remove the dignity of the animal you eat by paying for its death.

[quoteHumans are bad for the environment. Technically killing myself would reduce CO2 output by quite a bit not to mention all the other benefits.[/QUOTE]Humans ARE bad for the envirnment, in practice. But, they don't hve to be, they choose to be. That is where I have gotten stuck. It is true that killing yourself would reduce CO2 emissions, but then, you could reduce your net output to below zero instead. What are the other beneits?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

Do you buy organic/free range?

About 99% of the time.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by GSixZero 

Just like no country admits to torture, but lots do it, no farm will admit to being cruel to it's animals.

While I agree that cruelty free meat is a great idea (and is something I try to practice), I don't look forward to trying to decide what that actually means.

Get to know the farms, and buy your meats, eggs, and dairy products from people you know and trust. We get those products from a market that's run by a co-op of private, organic, farms. Any time I like, I can go over to one of the farms, mark a cow, and have them slaughter it that day. But usually I just go into the their store and get something from the butcher, and I watch him cut the meat in front of me. It's more expensive, but the quality (and taste) is far, far beyond what you'd get at any supermarket.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

I agree that cattle, among other animals were intentioned to be eaten by their creator.

That's not correct. In the original design, man was veggie. Christianity and Judaism do not support meat eating - the verses relating to meat eating are purely there as God saying "well, if you're going to be a bunch of bastards anyways, I might as well set up some rules".

From a green perspective, consider this: A veggie Range Rover driver actually has a lower carbon footprint than a meat-eating cyclist (go check the lung capacity of a cow and work it out).

The answer to your conundrum is easy: Don't eat meat.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

Factory farming harms future humans through the production of greenhouse gases. Also, Annmal farming is a terribly food-inefficient process. If the grain America produced were diverted to, say, Africa, there would be a good deal less starvation, that is to say, none.

Sorry, there is no food shortage in the world. If African countries stopped rejecting some of our food things might be a little better for them.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

That's not correct. In the original design, man was veggie. Christianity and Judaism do not support meat eating - the verses relating to meat eating are purely there as God saying "well, if you're going to be a bunch of bastards anyways, I might as well set up some rules".

From a green perspective, consider this: A veggie Range Rover driver actually has a lower carbon footprint than a meat-eating cyclist (go check the lung capacity of a cow and work it out).

The answer to your conundrum is easy: Don't eat meat.

Are you telling me that all those chapters in the bible about kosher meat are there just because we are a bunch of bastards and should have some guidelines? Jewish literature for at least the last 1000 years has supported eating meat. "Ein simcha ela b'basar"

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

Are you telling me that all those chapters in the bible about kosher meat are there just because we are a bunch of bastards and should have some guidelines?

Yep.

[Spliffdaddy]

*gasp*

say it ain't so, Doofy.

You can't be one of them.....one of those veg-head tree-hugging peacenik hippies!

They got to you, didn't they? Blair sent some jack-booted government goons to rough you up, didn't he?

Brainwashed. That's what they did.

*shakes his head and stares at the floor*

We've gotta get you out of there. Things really are as bad as you said they were.

Next thing you know you'll be paying a licensing fee for your televisions.

I've seen European cows - and I wouldn't eat one, either. All skinny with moss growing on their asses.

Here in America the cows are fat and clean. And television is free.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

*gasp*

say it ain't so, Doofy.

Going on 20 years now Spliffy.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

You can't be one of them.....one of those veg-head tree-hugging peacenik hippies!

Veg-head tree-hugging warmongering capitalist.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

They got to you, didn't they? Blair sent some jack-booted government goons to rough you up, didn't he?

Brainwashed. That's what they did.

*shakes his head and stares at the floor*

We've gotta get you out of there. Things really are as bad as you said they were.

Next thing you know you'll be paying a licensing fee for your televisions.

I've seen European cows - and I wouldn't eat one, either. All skinny with moss growing on their asses.

Here in America the cows are fat and clean. And television is free.

It's really kind strange, like a parallel universe. All the veggies I know are hardcore capitalist right-wingers, while all the lefties I know (unfortunately) are full-on carnivores.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Yep.

While it is biblically correct to say that humans were originally not supposed to eat meat, we know from Genesis that that changed with Noah. The use of animal products is an integral part of Judaism. We are commanded to slaughter and consume lambs on Passover, for example. And the ritual offerings to God, while not entirely based on animal sacrifice, usually have an animal component. If eating animals were a practice simply accepted and circumscribed by God due to human proclivities, the Scriptures would not mandate certain acts ritual slaughter and speak of the practice in such a positive way.

[Zeeb]

There is too little food in the world as it is to cut off a major source of it-meat because of an ill-perceived idea that it is cruel to animals. I accept that it takes more resources to to raise a cow for slaughter than to grow its weight in wheat but human beings need the protein that only meat can supply reliably. You can replace the proteins that you get in meat with vegetables but it is a rather complicated process and it starts to get more expensive than eating a chicken breast.

Most the vegetarians that I know are quite anemic and have told so by their doctors. The ones that aren't are borderline anemic or iron deficient and have to take synthetic supplements. How is popping pills "natural"?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

human beings need the protein that only meat can supply reliably. You can replace the proteins that you get in meat with vegetables but it is a rather complicated process and it starts to get more expensive than eating a chicken breast.

Most the vegetarians that I know are quite anemic and have told so by their doctors. The ones that aren't are borderline anemic or iron deficient and have to take synthetic supplements. How is popping pills "natural"?

That's all bullcrap. I don't pop pills, don't go out of my way to get nutrients and don't eat meat. Nearly 20 years of doing so and still being healthy enough to whoop most people's asses says I'm right.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

While it is biblically correct to say that humans were originally not supposed to eat meat, we know from Genesis that that changed with Noah. The use of animal products is an integral part of Judaism. We are commanded to slaughter and consume lambs on Passover, for example. And the ritual offerings to God, while not entirely based on animal sacrifice, usually have an animal component. If eating animals were a practice simply accepted and circumscribed by God due to human proclivities, the Scriptures would not mandate certain acts ritual slaughter and speak of the practice in such a positive way.

If humans hadn't fallen, we'd still all be in the Garden. If you want to take an early fallen state as the default rather than the pre-fallen state, then that's up to you.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

That's all bullcrap. I don't pop pills, don't go out of my way to get nutrients and don't eat meat. Nearly 20 years of doing so and still being healthy enough to whoop most people's asses says I'm right.

Ahem. Excuse me but aren't you the one who defends people's "right" to smoke in public and expose others to the well-documented and scientifically proven unhealthy effects of second hand smoke in an enclosed area? I'm sorry, but you can hardly be counted on to determine what is healthy for people.

However, if you're a healthy vegetarian good for you. That makes you the only vegetarian or vegan I have spoken with who hasn't told me that they are anemic or isn't iron deficient. By the way, you can feel healthy and still not be getting enough nutrients. My friends found out their situation when they had blood work done. I also know for a fact that it is a widespread, although not widely discussed, issue with a vegetarian diet.

By making meat production, "cruelty free" it will become so expensive to produce meat that people won't be able to afford it--in effect forcing them to become somewhat vegetarian--which is essentially the goal I believe. Screw that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

Ahem. Excuse me but aren't you the one who defends people's "right" to smoke in public and expose others to the well-documented and scientifically proven unhealthy effects of second hand smoke in an enclosed area? I'm sorry, but you can hardly be counted on to determine what is healthy for people.

You seem to have some difficulty separating "freedom" from "healthiness".

Eat what you want. I'm just telling you from personal experience that all this crap about veggies not being healthy is exactly that: crap.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

If humans hadn't fallen, we'd still all be in the Garden. If you want to take an early fallen state as the default rather than the pre-fallen state, then that's up to you.

I accept that choice. But the fact is that we are not in the garden, God granted us permission to eat animals (of course conditions do apply), and God endorsed the practice, all of which is clearly found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

[The Left]

eating meat should be banned completely irregardless of source.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Left 

eating meat should be banned completely irregardless of source.

I'm glad that will never happen.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

There is too little food in the world as it is to cut off a major source of it-meat because of an ill-perceived idea that it is cruel to animals. I accept that it takes more resources to to raise a cow for slaughter than to grow its weight in wheat but human beings need the protein that only meat can supply reliably...

As I said once before in this thread, this is simply not true. If I remember one thing from the upper level course I took called World Hunger it is that there is more than enough food. One of the other professors teaching the course wrote the textbook so maybe it is all a big conspiracy but I don't think so.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

I'm glad that will never happen.

started with smoking and we got that thru, this is going to happen as well.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

As I said once before in this thread, this is simply not true. If I remember one thing from the upper level course I took called World Hunger it is that there is more than enough food. One of the other professors teaching the course wrote the textbook so maybe it is all a big conspiracy but I don't think so.

Not long ago, I read an article that stated that, in the US alone, we throw away enough food to feed all of the hungry in Africa... I just wish we could take some of that food and feed the homeless in the US.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Left 

started with smoking and we got that thru, this is going to happen as well.

"Got that thru"? Not where I live, buddy. Smoking is still legal in public places around here, and it will remain so.

Just because a few backwards municipalities and states ban something doesn't mean the more rational areas of the country will follow suit.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Get to know the farms, and buy your meats, eggs, and dairy products from people you know and trust. We get those products from a market that's run by a co-op of private, organic, farms. Any time I like, I can go over to one of the farms, mark a cow, and have them slaughter it that day. But usually I just go into the their store and get something from the butcher, and I watch him cut the meat in front of me. It's more expensive, but the quality (and taste) is far, far beyond what you'd get at any supermarket.

You should try living in a third-world country like I do. "farms" and "butchers" don't even exist. Sure, there's plenty of people that raise chickens and sell it on the side of the road. But the stench of the places is usually so bad you'd never want to buy something from them. Beef is impossible to get. The eggs that you buy at the store are usually covered in bird poop. Fresh milk is non-existant. We get the UHT milk that tastes like cardboard. Ask somebody what asparagus is and they look at you like you're from mars.... Damn I can't wait to get back to North America.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

You should try living in a third-world country like I do. "farms" and "butchers" don't even exist. Sure, there's plenty of people that raise chickens and sell it on the side of the road. But the stench of the places is usually so bad you'd never want to buy something from them. Beef is impossible to get. The eggs that you buy at the store are usually covered in bird poop. Fresh milk is non-existant. We get the UHT milk that tastes like cardboard. Ask somebody what asparagus is and they look at you like you're from mars.... Damn I can't wait to get back to North America.

I've visited several, and it is pretty remarkable what we take for granted.

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

Do you buy organic/free range?

yeah, i similar. i am not a big meat eater, but often have a hankerin' for meat. that said, i eat meat (red) about once every 2 weeks and not all that much chicken or fish.

i think you have to do what makes you comfortable and what ethically you can live with.

i do feel that since we are at the top of the food chain, we should look to treat those creatures we choose to eat humanely and to make sure that their slaughter was done as cleanly and pain-free as possible.

is it possible to ALWAYS eat that way...? probably not, but it is something we can strive towards.

[The Left]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

"Got that thru"? Not where I live, buddy. Smoking is still legal in public places around here, and it will remain so.

Just because a few backwards municipalities and states ban something doesn't mean the more rational areas of the country will follow suit.

don't give up, it will happen, smoking will eventually be banned everywhere in the civilized world along with eating meat.

[houstonmacbro]

... and what about gay marriage?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Left 

don't give up, it will happen, smoking will eventually be banned everywhere in the civilized world along with eating meat.

Nope. Dream on.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Tuoder 

Organic food is the alternative. By your logic, you remove the dignity of the animal you eat by paying for its death.

Arguing that a creature that exists purely for human consumption had any dignity to begin with is a stretch. Dead is dead and how it dies is merely an ethical issue for us. Killing them in a "humane" fashion, like most of our ethical matters, is purely for our own benefit. This is really no different than nature.

Humans ARE bad for the envirnment, in practice. But, they don't hve to be, they choose to be. That is where I have gotten stuck. It is true that killing yourself would reduce CO2 emissions, but then, you could reduce your net output to below zero instead. What are the other beneits?

No, we're bad for the environment period. I'm sorry but you can't just forget the industrial age ever happened and crawl in a hole. Our success as a species is based on technology which has such a profound effect on the world around us. Bottom line: we're concerned with our own survival and success first. If our effects on the environment are detrimental to us we'll try and fix the problem, if not screw it.

If we become too much of a burden we'll die off plain and simple. The world will keep on turning (at least until it roasts like a marshmallow) and life will keep on kicking.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro 

yeah, i similar. i am not a big meat eater, but often have a hankerin' for meat. that said, i eat meat (red) about once every 2 weeks and not all that much chicken or fish.

i think you have to do what makes you comfortable and what ethically you can live with.

i do feel that since we are at the top of the food chain, we should look to treat those creatures we choose to eat humanely and to make sure that their slaughter was done as cleanly and pain-free as possible.

is it possible to ALWAYS eat that way...? probably not, but it is something we can strive towards.

Meat processing plants are already as humane as they need to be. The people who strive for more humane slaughter are actually not intending to make the animal more comfortable--they want to add complication and expense to slaughterhouses so that meat becomes prohibitively expensive, thereby ending animal slaughter altogether.

I don't understand how ethics have become so tied in with eating meat. Eating meat is a legal, healthy and ethically sound act. There, now all of you can have steaks and not feel guilty.

At any rate, the processing of meat should be clean -- just like any food processor. Unfortunately, that is not always the case since some contaminated spinach hit the market a few months ago. (Spinach by the way is vegetable)

[houstonmacbro]

contaminated by some living thing. e-coli only comes from animals or humans.

as far as i know, no vegetable can produce e-coli.

as for ethics ... my mind (and conscience) feels better when i know the animals were raised freely and slaughtered humanely. as i said before, i am not a big meat eater, so i don't think about it often, but i would rather have an animal slaughtered in a kosher fashion (no i am not jewish! just using that as an example), than mired in feces at a cramped slaughter house, raised from the ground and dropped on the floor to kill it.

[The Left]

eating a animal is inhumane. there is no differentiation in "being nice" to it before you kill it to eat it. If that makes you feel better about eating it, then you are still doing wrong which is why you shouldn't eat it in the first place, thus laws to outlaw eating meat, while perhaps seeming novel today, are coming and a progressive step forward which we are working for thru PETA etc.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by The Left 

eating a animal is inhumane. there is no differentiation in "being nice" to it before you kill it to eat it. If that makes you feel better about eating it, then you are still doing wrong which is why you shouldn't eat it in the first place, thus laws to outlaw eating meat, while perhaps seeming novel today, are coming and a progressive step forward which we are working for thru PETA etc.

Excuse me, but are you saying that indigenous groups like the Inuit or the Ojibwa or the Moche have inhumane dietary traditions? Do you have any other demands of these people?

[The Left]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Excuse me, but are you saying that indigenous groups like the Inuit or the Ojibwa or the Moche have inhumane dietary traditions? Do you have any other demands of these people?

ANYONE who eats meat or animal products is violating the rights of another living being.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by The Left 

eating a animal is inhumane. there is no differentiation in "being nice" to it before you kill it to eat it. If that makes you feel better about eating it, then you are still doing wrong which is why you shouldn't eat it in the first place, thus laws to outlaw eating meat, while perhaps seeming novel today, are coming and a progressive step forward which we are working for thru PETA etc.

What evidence do you have to support your claim that eating meat will someday be illegal? Is there a single city or county within the United States where it is either illegal to eat meat or close to becoming illegal? The only type of thing I'm aware of is that a certain product made from a duck was pulled from the shelves of Whole Foods. They also stopped selling live lobster from a certain vendor I believe. However, both actions were taken voluntarily.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I believe the misinformation that PETA and other political veggie groups spread could someday result in a ban. I'm not worried about it, because then real science and not organizations like "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine" will step up to debunk all this garbage about animal protein being bad for you.

It is NOT inhumane to eat an animal raised for food nor is it in any way morally wrong.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by The Left 

ANYONE who eats meat or animal products is violating the rights of another living being.

Animals which are raised for food have no rights, nor should they. They cannot perceive life or death, right or wrong. They are food.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

What evidence do you have to support your claim that eating meat will someday be illegal?

Haven't you heard? Marx's dialectical materialism predicts the future success of vegetarianism as certain as the success of socialism!

Oh, it's a wonderful future! An egalitarian Atlantis where rich and poor, men and beasts, nerds and preppies live as brothers forever and ever! (Really sucks for the plants, though.)

[The Left]

in your opinion.

in my opinion eating a animal or animal product is unethical and should be banned, and we are working to make eating animals or animal products illegal. will it happen this year.. no but it is coming, PETA is a first step, it just takes education and laws to change people's unethical behaviors.

and there is no difference between eating a free range egg or going out and biting into the leg of a live cow.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by The Left 

in your opinion.

in my opinion eating a animal or animal product is unethical and should be banned, and we are working to make eating animals or animal products illegal. will it happen this year.. no but it is coming, PETA is a first step, it just takes education and laws to change people's unethical behaviors.

and there is no difference between eating a free range egg or going out and biting into the leg of a live cow.

Education? I think you mean brainwashing. The problem is that you don't respect my opinion--you want to make my opinion illegal. Your life choice is to be vegetarian and I support your right to decide what you want for dinner. You want to decide for me what I want to have for dinner and I take exception to that. No, I will not allow it.

Your movement cannot support your claims with any valid scientific evidence whatsoever. The larger scientific community does not endorse or support the junk science you use at all.

There is a difference between eating a free range egg (though I could care less if its free range or not) and biting into the leg of a live cow. The eggs are likely cooked and taste better. Biting into a live cow would not be tasty--hence the need for meat processing plants. Also, the leg of a cow is not the best cut--but I digress. I doubt you would go out into a field and bite a raw sugarbeat. Your analogy is silly.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Haven't you heard? Marx's dialectical materialism predicts the future success of vegetarianism as certain as the success of socialism!

Oh, it's a wonderful future! An egalitarian Atlantis where rich and poor, men and beasts, nerds and preppies live as brothers forever and ever! (Really sucks for the plants, though.)

We can all hold hands with the cows and chickens, kiss each other goodnight and thank God for the Veggie Nazis.

We can also pass laws making it mandatory that cows have proper housing with running water and heat. Homeless human beings are secondary--we must devote our lives and focus all our efforts upon making sure animals are comfortable!

[The Left]

it is not science at all.

it is ethics.

if you can justify eating a free range hen because it got to go out side before it was slaugthered for you to eat it, then more power to you...but I find stupid to make such distinctions....and morally compromised.

We have made it illegal in many cities and states to eat foie gras, that is a start, but only a start to enforcing a etchically fair diet for everyone that is not harmful to any animal.