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Democrats: what will you do if/when Obama loses? (Page 2)
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lpkmckenna
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Aug 1, 2008, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
And there's the other failover argument to prevent "the left" from being associated with fascism. Heard it before, I'll hear it again.
That's fascinating, but your either-or thinking is flawed. Fascism does resemble socialism on some things, but it also resembles ultraconservatism on some things.

The left-right terminology arose out of the French revolution, where anti-aristocracy was left and pro-aristocracy was right. In this sense, liberal democrats were regarded as moderate left and communists and anarchists were extreme left. Since "pro-aristocracy" is a dead movement in the West, people tend to think of pro-capitalism as right, but this confuses the issue since the liberals of the revolution were ardent capitalists. In Europe, the words liberalism and capitalism are still synonyms. Only in the English-speaking world have we ruptured that word relationship.

More confusingly, the English world also tends to associate anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-feminist, and anti-secularism with right-wing. But there's no reason to link anti-abortion and anti-minimum wage as "right-wing," since they have nothing in common.

I tend to see things as pro-freedom and anti-freedom, but that's my own binary viewpoint.
     
Paco500
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Aug 1, 2008, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I think that's a far too narrow of view of what intelligence is, first of all. More importantly, though, your assertion ignores far too many other variables. Your logic could actually be used to justify the belief that blacks or Hispanics are not as intelligent as whites. Which members of a certain side of the political spectrum are sometimes known to argue. Those of us whose sympathies tend to lean in the other direction know, though, that to say something like that ignores a number of other variables that limit opportunities for various groups.
Completely valid- there are other factors that may, or are even likely to, limit one's educational . But within a group, those more intellectually adept tend towards advancing their education. For the vast majority of the industrialized world, that means continuing their formal education. There will be exceptions and there will be others factors, but to claim there is no or little correlation between intelligence and voluntarily continued education is being willfully blind. Society is unfair, some people due to their race or circumstances never get an equal shot at success but that does not change the fact that all else being equal, smart people usually do better at school.

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Another important variable here is urban and rural demographics. Rural populations are also much more likely to be conservative in this country, just as they are likely to be less educated. It's an important variable in all these figures and an important social divide in the United States that urban urbane folk tend to overlook.
While some of this thread and some of my earlier comments formed part of a discussion as to the relative intelligence of conservatives vs. liberals, I was not addressing this in my last comment. I was limiting my comments to the argument that there is little to no relationship between intelligence and education. I would say that better educated people, be they conservative, liberal, urban, rural, male, female, etc tend to be more intelligent than their demographically equivalent less educated peers.
     
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Aug 1, 2008, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Let's take the classic example of fascism, the Nazi party in Germany. The Nazis galvanized public support from the working class in the same way the Republican party tries to today, by demonizing the left (it was communists for the Nazis) and by stoking nationalistic sentiment with appeals to traditional values (which you and your supporters have done in this very thread).
Nothing to do with demonising the capitalist Jews then?

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
just see clearly that most of the people on the right today are being manipulated through fear to support an agenda belonging to moneyed power structures in our society that have nothing to do with the values of liberty that should dominate our Liberal society.
Don't forget about those on the left who're being manipulated by the likes of Gore who keep the fear up about the planet dying. For exactly the same reasons.

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
To put it more colloquially: If you're not in that top 2% that now controls 50% of our wealth and you vote Republican, then you're getting played.
Rubbish. You're also being played if you vote Dem.
In fact, you're being played top to tail if you haven't got most of your cash stuck in an undisclosed offshore location. And Senator Obama and Levinson have plans to deal with that.
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Aug 1, 2008, 03:40 PM
 
I know my candidate will lose for sure, but I'm still voting for him.
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 1, 2008, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
No, honestly, this is absurd. You sincerely don't understand Nationalism.
No, I'm sorry. What you've just described is what the globalists want you to think nationalism is.
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Helmling
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Aug 1, 2008, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
Nothing to do with demonising the capitalist Jews then?

Don't forget about those on the left who're being manipulated by the likes of Gore who keep the fear up about the planet dying. For exactly the same reasons.

Rubbish. You're also being played if you vote Dem.
In fact, you're being played top to tail if you haven't got most of your cash stuck in an undisclosed offshore location. And Senator Obama and Levinson have plans to deal with that.
Sadly, anti-Semitism in Europe was very much a traditional value to which the Nazis could appeal.

As to the Gore remark. Many the realities of global warming and human impact on the climate scare you and make you want to pretend it's not happening. Me, they just motivate me to change. It is not fear I feel. Curious...

And what's this about my cash? That's it, think narrowly of your own pocketbook only. I'm sure there's no way you could be manipulated if only you guard your tiny little stack of money while the people with the real wealth continue to shape the world free of any collective interference from the pawns in their game.
     
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
No, I'm sorry. What you've just described is what the globalists want you to think nationalism is.
You can redefine it if you'd like, but this is what nationalism has been throughout history--you know in those examples I gave--and will continue to be for the rest of the English speaking world. Make up whatever name for it you like, it is THAT which validates my point about fascism and it is THAT which fascism shares with the right side of the political spectrum.

Geesh.
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
As to the Gore remark. Many the realities of global warming and human impact on the climate scare you and make you want to pretend it's not happening.
This is, of course, complete crap. What does scare me about climate change is the way governments are using it to remove our freedoms. That's it.

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
That's it, think narrowly of your own pocketbook only.
Thanks. I will.

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I'm sure there's no way you could be manipulated if only you guard your tiny little stack of money while the people with the real wealth continue to shape the world free of any collective interference from the pawns in their game.
Yep. No way I can be manipulated, since I'm aware of the game and stay ahead of it.
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
You can redefine it if you'd like, but this is what nationalism has been throughout history--you know in those examples I gave--and will continue to be for the rest of the English speaking world. Make up whatever name for it you like, it is THAT which validates my point about fascism and it is THAT which fascism shares with the right side of the political spectrum.

Geesh.
Heh. And you're calling me a pawn in their game. If only you knew.
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Helmling
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
This is, of course, complete crap. What does scare me about climate change is the way governments are using it to remove our freedoms. That's it.
What freedoms? The freedom to pollute the public commons?
     
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
Heh. And you're calling me a pawn in their game. If only you knew.
I know that all this happened before. There's an old Chinese proverb that says "When the rich grow to rich and the poor too poor, there are ways..." The last time the gulf between rich and poor widened in the West this way, it sparked the Marxist revolutions of the early 20th century.

What will happen as a reaction to this gilded age as the empowered continue their campaign of rampant greed? That's something neither of us knows...
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
What freedoms? The freedom to pollute the public commons?
Come back when you're veggie, work from home and have carbon sink on your land. Then you can talk to me about pollution.
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Uncle Doof
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
What will happen as a reaction to this gilded age as the empowered continue their campaign of rampant greed? That's something neither of us knows...
Speak for yourself. I'm 95% certain I know exactly what's going to happen.
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Luca Rescigno
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
Boy, I've had to add a lot of people to my ignore list today.

Doof, what's the effin' deal? Are you on crack or something?

"That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario!" *wheeze*
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 1, 2008, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
Doof, what's the effin' deal? Are you on crack or something?
Narh man. I'm just fed up with pansies attempting to put words into my mouth and trying to argue with me based on what they've been told rather than what they've actually thought about for themselves.

I continue to stand by everything I've said in this thread.
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Chongo
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Aug 1, 2008, 05:01 PM
 
The term "liberal fascism was coined by " H.G. Wells in a speech he gave to the Young Liberals at Oxford in 1932. Wells stated he wanted to "assist in a kind of phoenix rebirth" of Liberalism as an "enlightened Nazism."
45/47
     
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Aug 1, 2008, 05:21 PM
 
They'll cry out "Racism, Racism, Racism!!!" along with "Recount, Recount, Recount!!!"

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Aug 1, 2008, 05:29 PM
 
I am still on the fence as to whom I will vote for. Both candidates have their qualities and their faults. I voted in the last two elections, once Independent and once Democrat. Being that I did not believe George W. would be a good President, I chose not to vote for him either time. However, this go round, I think that both McCain and Obama have the potential to be a great President.
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Aug 1, 2008, 05:30 PM
 
Hmmm. Interesting. The Google ad at the top of the page is now showing:

Right Wing Extremist
Suspect it? Report it. Your call could be vital to us.
Which links to:

http://www.met.police.uk/so/at_hotline.htm

Makes me proud that I'm paying for this crappy ad. Hope there's one for left wing extremists.
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Aug 1, 2008, 06:34 PM
 
I stopped watching as soon as they called him an actor.

LOL!!1!11!
     
Kerrigan  (op)
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Aug 1, 2008, 08:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
Speak for yourself. I'm 95% certain I know exactly what's going to happen.
If you're thinking what I'm thinking . . . .
     
ebuddy
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Aug 1, 2008, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
I actually came up with a theory for this the other day.

As you will be aware, there's a branch of spectrum disorder which deals with sensory integration - that is, how well the five senses are adjusted to the outside world. People who are "off" in their sense calibration are said to have Sensory Integration Disorder - either their senses are hyposensitive or hypersensitive. I have a form of this myself - hypersensitive hearing.

I believe that everyone is somewhere along the hypo-hyper line in the way that their senses function - most people are not on the centre-line, meaning that there's really no such thing as "normal".

Now, it seems to correlate that conservatives are on the "hyper" side of this line, while liberals are on the "hypo" side - since liberals always tend to seek out new stimulation via change and conservatives don't.

This is a new theory and that's about as far as I've gotten. But it seems to hold true for now - and does, in fact, indicate that libs' and conservatives' brains may be different.
You're actually on to something with this I think. The underlying assumption is that it's entirely possible that liberals have a higher propensity for being fashionably "absorbent". You conduct the same exact tests as others have, but frame it as liberals being more naive. They're into "new" whether it's sensible or not.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 1, 2008, 09:21 PM
 
I always figured it was because liberals were more feminine (except for the hordes of Working Class Whites who vote for Democrats in order to protect the power of their unions).
     
ebuddy
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Aug 1, 2008, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I always figured it was because liberals were more feminine (except for the hordes of Working Class Whites who vote for Democrats in order to protect the power of their unions).
Interestingly, that's the other segment Obama can't seem to win over. Women over 40. Unfortunately, I have.
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Aug 2, 2008, 02:13 PM
 
Wait, you're saying that you've won over a large portion of the 40+ female demographic? Depending on your age, that might not be such a bad thing ... :-p
     
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Aug 2, 2008, 11:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
topped herself
What does topped herself mean? Did she get a new hat or did she have her hair done?
     
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Aug 3, 2008, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
Come back when you're veggie, work from home and have carbon sink on your land. Then you can talk to me about pollution.
I am a veggie. I drive an economy less than three miles to work (I'd get a bike if it wasn't for the kids). I'm putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid. Oh, and I've been paying extra for years to subsidize new wind farm construction by my power company and I donate to terrapass.

I put my money where my mouth is, thanks.
     
Helmling
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Aug 3, 2008, 01:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
Narh man. I'm just fed up with pansies attempting to put words into my mouth and trying to argue with me based on what they've been told rather than what they've actually thought about for themselves.

I continue to stand by everything I've said in this thread.
It's not really "standing" when your head's that deep up your...
     
olePigeon
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Aug 4, 2008, 11:55 AM
 
Doof just got eco-served. It's ON!
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olePigeon
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Aug 4, 2008, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
n fact, you're being played top to tail if you haven't got most of your cash stuck in an undisclosed offshore location. And Senator Obama and Levinson have plans to deal with that.
The main reason to have an undisclosed offshore account is to avoid having to pay taxes. They should have to pay taxes like everyone else. If they're earning interest on an investment of millions of dollars and dividends, they need to pay taxes. It's unearned income so it should be taxed accordingly.
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ebuddy
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Aug 4, 2008, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I am a veggie. I drive an economy less than three miles to work (I'd get a bike if it wasn't for the kids). I'm putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid. Oh, and I've been paying extra for years to subsidize new wind farm construction by my power company and I donate to terrapass.

I put my money where my mouth is, thanks.
Of course you realize that this could all be complete bumpkus and we'd not know, but I'm curious none the less;
- what's an "economy"?
- "I'm putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid". Is that like; "I'm getting a Tesla roadster to reduce emissions"?
- How high off your rooftop does that wind turbine reach and what are your neighbors saying?
- How's your power company doing on building those new wind farms?
- How much CO2 has this for-profit, investment firm terrapass reduced since 2002?

I'm guessing you're a cat owner. Cats don't eat fruits and vegetables.
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Aug 4, 2008, 11:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
They're into "new" whether it's sensible or not.
But even "new" is being a little too kind. Most ideas liberals fawn over that conservatives oppose, are as old as the freakin' hills, they're just repackaged to hide the stench and put forward as though they are "change". Perpetual Bigger Government. Socialism. Class envy. Using racial/gender/etc. differences as political tools. Claiming the sky is falling so that vast political power grabs can be made to "saaaaaave" everyone. None of it's "new".
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 06:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
The main reason to have an undisclosed offshore account is to avoid having to pay taxes.
There's nothing illegal about tax avoidance.

And there's other reasons for having offshore accounts. Like privacy. Remember that concept?

Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
They should have to pay taxes like everyone else.
Malcolm Reynolds would sock you in the mouth if he ever met you. You know that right?

Because the correct way of saying what you've just said is "Everyone should pay no, or next to no, taxes".
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Aug 5, 2008, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I drive an economy less than three miles to work (I'd get a bike if it wasn't for the kids).
So let's get this right... You can't buy a bike to cycle the three miles to work because you take the kids to work with you?
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Aug 5, 2008, 06:05 AM
 
"What will you do if/when Obama loses?"

Brace for doom.
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Aug 5, 2008, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
But even "new" is being a little too kind. Most ideas liberals fawn over that conservatives oppose, are as old as the freakin' hills, they're just repackaged to hide the stench and put forward as though they are "change". Perpetual Bigger Government. Socialism. Class envy. Using racial/gender/etc. differences as political tools. Claiming the sky is falling so that vast political power grabs can be made to "saaaaaave" everyone. None of it's "new".
Good point CH. I should've worded it to suggest that perhaps liberals are more susceptible to "incoming information" with higher propensity toward conformity without question. I think they should re-tool some of the testing to measure naiveté. They could use "impulse buying" as one measure.

You know, I generally don't appreciate banter that includes "left", "right", "liberal", and "conservative" because most often it seems these terms are being abused to fit whatever it is we find detestable. However, of late it seems more apparent to me that the lines between these ideologies are becoming far more clear and for the reasons you've mentioned above. When I say "liberal", I mean dyed-in-the-wool, oppose anything that has an (R) after it (regardless of whether or not it's a liberal policy), unabashedly in-your-face leftist.
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Aug 5, 2008, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
So let's get this right... You can't buy a bike to cycle the three miles to work because you take the kids to work with you?
The notion here is of course that everyone at some point will be expected to do the same as Helmling and a government will be the administrator, but is this realistic for most on a budget? My main question is; is this even realistic for Helmling?

He's donating both to his local power company and terrapass? How much additional is this costing him per month and what has this accomplished other than lining the pockets of the well-intentioned? I look forward to his response explaining exactly how much good has come of all this and how many wind-farms his power company has constructed.

He's mounting a wind turbine on his roof? Certainly he's done enough homework to know that he must get above the turbulent winds and into the more steady higher winds to even garner 59% of the expected output of the theory. What does this mean? 30' above anything within 300'. For most, this is a tower, not a rooftop installation. Is it for Helmling? I look forward to finding out.

You mentioned the 'bike' thing. I didn't get that either. I look forward to his response on this as well.

The cost of purchasing and maintaining energy storage (batteries, sq footage needed for these batteries, battery replacement, solar installation, upkeep, etc...) is prohibitive to most. Is it to Helmling? He's "putting in solar and wind power on his roof", but is he? When will this installation be complete? Next week? Next year? Really, is it never?

Does he own a pet and is this pet also a veggie? If not, he may as well go ahead and eat meat. I pegged him for a cat owner, I'm wondering if I'm way off here. I look forward to hearing back. Maybe he owns a pen of rabbits.

You supposedly got eco-smacked down doof, but I'm wondering if there's substance to it. Was it a genuine leather glove smacking or just lip smacking?
ebuddy
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 07:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You supposedly got eco-smacked down doof, but I'm wondering if there's substance to it. Was it a genuine leather glove smacking or just lip smacking?
Well, until my opponents work from home (thus expending *no* energy in getting to work) and kill their CO2-producing entities (kids), I'm still greener than them. So I've still got the moral high ground.
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Aug 5, 2008, 12:01 PM
 
YEAH!? Well I'm planting trees and growing my own FOOD. EAT THAT!!!!
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
YEAH!? Well I'm planting trees and growing my own FOOD. EAT THAT!!!!
What ya planting? Something nice and quick like poplar?
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Aug 5, 2008, 03:14 PM
 
Celebrate and send an e-mail to the head of the Democratic party and say I told you so.
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
So let's get this right... You can't buy a bike to cycle the three miles to work because you take the kids to work with you?
Actually, it's more about picking them up from school and taking them to their various activities.

Really, is this your only quibble? You were assuming that all tree huggers are hypocrites but I think I've demonstrated otherwise. While I am not a Greenpeace Vegan with hemp sandals, I've taken measures to reduce my carbon footprint so I should think--even with you--that entitles me to shoot my mouth off.
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
You were assuming that all tree huggers are hypocrites
The vast majority of them are. At least in this country, anyways.

Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I've taken measures to reduce my carbon footprint so I should think--even with you--that entitles me to shoot my mouth off.
The last comment I made was just a little ribbing.
Yes, as far as I'm concerned, you've shown yourself to be entitled to shoot your mouth off.

I should give some background. What really irks me is hippies telling me that I should lower my carbon footprint (i.e. by selling my V8) when I'm actually way greener than they are. This happens a lot here - people simply parroting "big car bad" without even attempting to analyse or lower their own footprint. "Being green" in this country is more about Marxist class warfare than it is about "saving the planet".

Not that I think a low carbon footprint is a worthwhile endeavour, of course. My trees need CO2 to breathe. I just like to use footprint comparison as a way of exposing and shutting up the hypocrites.

You, sir, have my respect (even though I may not necessarily agree with anything you're saying).
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Helmling
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Aug 5, 2008, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The notion here is of course that everyone at some point will be expected to do the same as Helmling and a government will be the administrator, but is this realistic for most on a budget? My main question is; is this even realistic for Helmling?

He's donating both to his local power company and terrapass? How much additional is this costing him per month and what has this accomplished other than lining the pockets of the well-intentioned? I look forward to his response explaining exactly how much good has come of all this and how many wind-farms his power company has constructed.

He's mounting a wind turbine on his roof? Certainly he's done enough homework to know that he must get above the turbulent winds and into the more steady higher winds to even garner 59% of the expected output of the theory. What does this mean? 30' above anything within 300'. For most, this is a tower, not a rooftop installation. Is it for Helmling? I look forward to finding out.

You mentioned the 'bike' thing. I didn't get that either. I look forward to his response on this as well.

The cost of purchasing and maintaining energy storage (batteries, sq footage needed for these batteries, battery replacement, solar installation, upkeep, etc...) is prohibitive to most. Is it to Helmling? He's "putting in solar and wind power on his roof", but is he? When will this installation be complete? Next week? Next year? Really, is it never?

Does he own a pet and is this pet also a veggie? If not, he may as well go ahead and eat meat. I pegged him for a cat owner, I'm wondering if I'm way off here. I look forward to hearing back. Maybe he owns a pen of rabbits.

You supposedly got eco-smacked down doof, but I'm wondering if there's substance to it. Was it a genuine leather glove smacking or just lip smacking?
I haven't actually looked into the little solar plants myself. I saw them advertised, then a colleague whose wife was researching them told me more about them and promised to forward some information. So who knows, maybe you're right and that wouldn't be a worthwhile addition. The solar panels are, though, going to cost me in the neighborhood of $10,000, which is not money I have sitting around. I get a big windfall of stipends in May '09, so it's earmarked for then. My understanding based on my reading is that you don't store the energy at all, you feed into the grid when you're surplus. This is what I've read in several sources, though I have yet to do the paperwork with the local electric company.

I recognize the TerraPass and my extra payouts to the electric company aren't doing that much tangible "good." But I don't believe we should live our lives by that kind of metric. I do what I feel is right and responsible. If by lining the pockets of the well-intentioned, or even those simply looking to profit through my good intentions, I'm contributing to a growing industry catering to green economics, then so be it. I'm taking those steps I can to try to lessen my impact. These are the more overt steps, but there are lots of little ones too, like just being conscious of how much plastic I use and making sure I recycle as much as possible. Are those so unreasonable that you would like to sneer at them as well? Could I do more? Obviously, anyone could. We could curl up and die, which is I'm sure what Uncle Doof will say I should do if I'm really committed to environmentalism. You, though, I always figured for a more serious and sensible person.

Now, even from the tentative, cautious tone in which you've tried to employ insinuation in this post, I sense that you see your footing here is not good. You've gotten needlessly personal in trying to suggest that I'm just some prick, content to tell other people how to live their lives (which for the record, I'm not) while not following his own advice. So I think I've passed Doof's little test and you'll have to admit it (if only to yourself) unless you insist on being pointlessly belligerent.


P.S. What heterosexual male would own a cat?
P.P.S. I thought about editing out my swipe at Doof now that's he's proven himself quite reasonable and sensible, but I figure I should leave it in and own up to it: I was wrong. Hat's off to ya' Doof.
     
Helmling
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Aug 5, 2008, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
The vast majority of them are. At least in this country, anyways.



The last comment I made was just a little ribbing.
Yes, as far as I'm concerned, you've shown yourself to be entitled to shoot your mouth off.

I should give some background. What really irks me is hippies telling me that I should lower my carbon footprint (i.e. by selling my V8) when I'm actually way greener than they are. This happens a lot here - people simply parroting "big car bad" without even attempting to analyse or lower their own footprint. "Being green" in this country is more about Marxist class warfare than it is about "saving the planet".

Not that I think a low carbon footprint is a worthwhile endeavour, of course. My trees need CO2 to breathe. I just like to use footprint comparison as a way of exposing and shutting up the hypocrites.

You, sir, have my respect (even though I may not necessarily agree with anything you're saying).
Well, that's a start.
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 5, 2008, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Well, that's a start.
No, it's a static point - not a start.

I respect those who live their life in such a manner as to back up their opinions.
However, I'm coming at climate change and environmentalism from the political side of things so I'm seeing things slightly differently. As they really are, perhaps.

I'm a country boy, and as far as I can tell, climate change worry is just a bunch of townies running around getting their panties in a wad over nothing - and it's all being perpetuated by a bunch of governments who see it as a very good opportunity to control the people some more. It's the way to get the left side of the political spectrum united in fear about something in the same way as the war on terror is the way to get the right side of the spectrum united in fear.

When the UK government (and others) stops paying people to have kids then I'll believe that there's actually something to this climate change thing. Until then, it's all complete guff and there's nothing anyone can say or do to make me think any different. As it happens, my country boy ways do mean that my footprint is lower than most other people's - but this is simply coincidence brought about by an awareness of the natural world and makes a good way to hammer out the hypocrites.

If you don't want to be eaten, stop acting like food
     
Uncle Doof
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Aug 5, 2008, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
P.P.S. I thought about editing out my swipe at Doof now that's he's proven himself quite reasonable and sensible, but I figure I should leave it in and own up to it: I was wrong. Hat's off to ya' Doof.
No worries mate.

I am heterosexual and do own five cats though. Well, they own me.
If you don't want to be eaten, stop acting like food
     
ebuddy
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Aug 5, 2008, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I haven't actually looked into the little solar plants myself. I saw them advertised, then a colleague whose wife was researching them told me more about them and promised to forward some information. So who knows, maybe you're right and that wouldn't be a worthwhile addition. The solar panels are, though, going to cost me in the neighborhood of $10,000, which is not money I have sitting around. I get a big windfall of stipends in May '09, so it's earmarked for then. My understanding based on my reading is that you don't store the energy at all, you feed into the grid when you're surplus. This is what I've read in several sources, though I have yet to do the paperwork with the local electric company.

I recognize the TerraPass and my extra payouts to the electric company aren't doing that much tangible "good." But I don't believe we should live our lives by that kind of metric. I do what I feel is right and responsible. If by lining the pockets of the well-intentioned, or even those simply looking to profit through my good intentions, I'm contributing to a growing industry catering to green economics, then so be it. I'm taking those steps I can to try to lessen my impact. These are the more overt steps, but there are lots of little ones too, like just being conscious of how much plastic I use and making sure I recycle as much as possible. Are those so unreasonable that you would like to sneer at them as well? Could I do more? Obviously, anyone could. We could curl up and die, which is I'm sure what Uncle Doof will say I should do if I'm really committed to environmentalism. You, though, I always figured for a more serious and sensible person.
This is a summary of your initial statement;
Originally Posted by Helmling
I am a veggie.
Okay, so far within two posts you haven't outright admitted to eating bacon occasionally. Excellent. It is affirmed, you're a veggie.

Originally Posted by Helmling
I drive an economy less than three miles to work (I'd get a bike if it wasn't for the kids).
Well, this is a problem. Doof kind of called you out on it, but I guess he was too "serious and sensible" to hold your feet to the fire. I'm okay with being silly and whimsical I suppose?

As it turns out, you're also regularly picking them up from school and taking them to their various activities. Of course, this is normal and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it unless you're trying to chest-pound some eco-superiority. Next you'll say that your "economy" is a Ford F-150 with dualies and a Palamino trailer hitched on. I'm just sayin'. You never did say what your "economy" is.

Originally Posted by Helmling
I'm putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid.
Well... here again unfortunately (and I appreciate your honesty) you admittedly "haven't actually looked into the little solar plants myself". You talk about a 'direct-tie' system which of course means that due to a necessary inverter, if your utility goes down you go down with it. You then admit that you haven't looked into the matter with your local utility. *Hint, you're going to want to know if they regard your power as equal in value to theirs and if there are any additional "precautions" they need to sell you. You finish by stating that you're coming into a large sum of money in May of next year and you're going to use it for these solar panels. I am indeed a serious and reasonable person and with all due respect I'm telling you that come May you will not be dropping $10,000.00 on solar panels. Trust me. I'm just not buying it at all.

- You didn't address my points about wind turbines at all.
- You haven't really done any serious research at all.
- You haven't spent a dime on any of it yet.
- You haven't even contacted your local utility about how this works.
So... you're not as you say; "putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid". At best, you're casually interested in maybe doing it someday.

Oh, and I've been paying extra for years to subsidize new wind farm construction by my power company
You admitted earlier that there is little tangible good from this. As far as you know, you're not subsidizing a thing. Has your local power company built so much as one wind turbine anywhere in your town? Next (given a small problem with track record in this thread), are you really giving them more than $1.00/month on this endeavor? 50 cents/month? Honestly.

Look, I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but this sounds like bumpkus to me.

I donate to terrapass.
Again, you've admitted that there is little good from this. They've been in business for 6 years and you can't mention one thing they've done? You're donating to a for-profit investment firm and getting absolutely nothing in return? *aside from the terrapass bumper sticker. Egadz.

I put my money where my mouth is, thanks.
Again, with all due respect; you really haven't put a dime of money where your mouth is which is exactly what folks like Doof rail on.

Now, even from the tentative, cautious tone in which you've tried to employ insinuation in this post, I sense that you see your footing here is not good. You've gotten needlessly personal in trying to suggest that I'm just some prick, content to tell other people how to live their lives (which for the record, I'm not) while not following his own advice. So I think I've passed Doof's little test and you'll have to admit it (if only to yourself) unless you insist on being pointlessly belligerent.
Now I'm absolutely convinced it's all bumpkus. This isn't being needlessly personal. When you say; "I put my money where my mouth is" and the only thing you have to say for yourself is that you donate to a for-profit investment firm, combined with the fact that you've been caught being shall we say-less than honest; I really don't see how you've passed any such test. I don't have to admit anything to myself Helmling. I'm telling you I don't buy it. IMO, I've shown why I have very good reasons not to.

P.S. What heterosexual male would own a cat?
So... it's a dog then? Dogs don't really eat many fruits and vegetables either.
ebuddy
     
Helmling
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Aug 5, 2008, 10:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This is a summary of your initial statement;

Okay, so far within two posts you haven't outright admitted to eating bacon occasionally. Excellent. It is affirmed, you're a veggie.


Well, this is a problem. Doof kind of called you out on it, but I guess he was too "serious and sensible" to hold your feet to the fire. I'm okay with being silly and whimsical I suppose?

As it turns out, you're also regularly picking them up from school and taking them to their various activities. Of course, this is normal and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it unless you're trying to chest-pound some eco-superiority. Next you'll say that your "economy" is a Ford F-150 with dualies and a Palamino trailer hitched on. I'm just sayin'. You never did say what your "economy" is.


Well... here again unfortunately (and I appreciate your honesty) you admittedly "haven't actually looked into the little solar plants myself". You talk about a 'direct-tie' system which of course means that due to a necessary inverter, if your utility goes down you go down with it. You then admit that you haven't looked into the matter with your local utility. *Hint, you're going to want to know if they regard your power as equal in value to theirs and if there are any additional "precautions" they need to sell you. You finish by stating that you're coming into a large sum of money in May of next year and you're going to use it for these solar panels. I am indeed a serious and reasonable person and with all due respect I'm telling you that come May you will not be dropping $10,000.00 on solar panels. Trust me. I'm just not buying it at all.

- You didn't address my points about wind turbines at all.
- You haven't really done any serious research at all.
- You haven't spent a dime on any of it yet.
- You haven't even contacted your local utility about how this works.
So... you're not as you say; "putting in solar and wind power on my roof to feed the grid". At best, you're casually interested in maybe doing it someday.


You admitted earlier that there is little tangible good from this. As far as you know, you're not subsidizing a thing. Has your local power company built so much as one wind turbine anywhere in your town? Next (given a small problem with track record in this thread), are you really giving them more than $1.00/month on this endeavor? 50 cents/month? Honestly.

Look, I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but this sounds like bumpkus to me.


Again, you've admitted that there is little good from this. They've been in business for 6 years and you can't mention one thing they've done? You're donating to a for-profit investment firm and getting absolutely nothing in return? *aside from the terrapass bumper sticker. Egadz.


Again, with all due respect; you really haven't put a dime of money where your mouth is which is exactly what folks like Doof rail on.


Now I'm absolutely convinced it's all bumpkus. This isn't being needlessly personal. When you say; "I put my money where my mouth is" and the only thing you have to say for yourself is that you donate to a for-profit investment firm, combined with the fact that you've been caught being shall we say-less than honest; I really don't see how you've passed any such test. I don't have to admit anything to myself Helmling. I'm telling you I don't buy it. IMO, I've shown why I have very good reasons not to.


So... it's a dog then? Dogs don't really eat many fruits and vegetables either.
My local power company has put up hundreds of turbines. I've been paying an average of $10 a month for ten years. Terrapass has lots of information on their website about what they do and I've paid in for both my vehicles for two. My car is a Civic and we're waiting to buy any new cars until the new plug-in hybrids hit the market. Like I said, the influx of cash I've earmarked for solar panels doesn't come in until next year, so I've got months and months to hammer out details. I haven't had bacon in four years. My dog... My dog? Give me a break. Your objections are nitpicking and argumentative--nothing else. And you missed the point. If we speak to corporate America through our purchases, then my buying organic or buying green is supporting a rapidly expanding sector of the economy, raising the profile of businesses that are trying to achieve sustainable economic growth. THAT's enough good for me, even if the individual impact of any one choice is small.

So, "less than honest?" Yeah, that's not personal. Kiss off. You can keep your pig-headed assumptions. Look at yourself, do you really delight in being this much of a prick? Doof launched the silly challenge trying to set me up as a hypocrite; I never did any chest-pounding about my own eco-superiority, just told him that as a matter of fact, I do make some lifestyle sacrifices to fit my beliefs. I know I try to live my life responsibly, so I don't require your validation. He was big enough to admit when he was jumping to conclusions about someone. So was I, when my own assumptions were overturned. Maybe we can all learn a lesson from this.

You sure need to.
     
Helmling
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Aug 5, 2008, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
No, it's a static point - not a start.

I respect those who live their life in such a manner as to back up their opinions.
However, I'm coming at climate change and environmentalism from the political side of things so I'm seeing things slightly differently. As they really are, perhaps.

I'm a country boy, and as far as I can tell, climate change worry is just a bunch of townies running around getting their panties in a wad over nothing - and it's all being perpetuated by a bunch of governments who see it as a very good opportunity to control the people some more. It's the way to get the left side of the political spectrum united in fear about something in the same way as the war on terror is the way to get the right side of the spectrum united in fear.

When the UK government (and others) stops paying people to have kids then I'll believe that there's actually something to this climate change thing. Until then, it's all complete guff and there's nothing anyone can say or do to make me think any different. As it happens, my country boy ways do mean that my footprint is lower than most other people's - but this is simply coincidence brought about by an awareness of the natural world and makes a good way to hammer out the hypocrites.

For me, climate change is just the latest face of a growing problem, one that I don't think anyone can deny.

Deserts are advancing. Dead zones in the ocean are growing. Coral reefs are being destroyed. Rain forests are diminishing. Species are disappearing. From my point of view, whether or not we're making significant changes to the atmosphere is almost small potatoes (for the record, I think the evidence that our activities are altering the climate IS compelling to say the least, though obviously we cannot predict how those changes will unfold in the coming century).

We are having a huge impact on the environment of the planet. Now, let me make it clear (because I suspect you're sensitive to this) that I do not subscribe to the apocalyptic visions of environmentalism. I do not think that the environmental crisis will destroy the Earth (George Carlin said it best.) or wipe out the human race. But I do think that these issues are now and will continue to create health and quality of life problems for our children and grandchildren and I definitely believe the world will be better off if we, collectively, start making some sensible choices to reduce our impact.

Switching to renewables. Taxing anything "disposable." Subsidizing mass transit. Stuff like that. This is one of the places where I break from Libertarianism. I think protecting the global commons should be one of the roles of government.
     
 
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