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christ
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Mar 31, 2003, 09:00 AM
 
Did anyone else see this yesterday?

From the Times, March 31, 2003

'The Yank opened up. He had absolutely no regard for human life. He was a cowboy out on a jolly'
Patrick Barkham meets the "friendly fire" victims

THREE wounded British soldiers described yesterday how they survived a terrifying attack by an American anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.

One of the survivors criticised the American pilot for showing ?no regard for human life? and accused him of being a cowboy who had gone out on a jolly.

Another survivor said that he had stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the pilot of the low-flying A10 to try to halt his ?friendly fire? as he returned to attack again.

The blunder, 35 miles north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on the hospital ship RFA Argus. A sixth Household Cavalry soldier escaped without injury when the two Scimitar light tanks were destroyed.

Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were flown home last night with shrapnel wounds and burns. Before leaving the Argus they spoke of their bewilderment and anger that, despite flying very low over their heads, the A10 pilot apparently failed to recognise the coalition identification markings on their British-made tanks. Another vehicle in the five-strong convoy patrolling the marshes near the meeting of the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab rivers bore a large Union Jack.

?All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They?ve said if you put this kit on you won?t get shot,? LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. ?We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres, yet you?ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can?t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It?s ridiculous.

?Combat is what I?ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.?
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 31, 2003, 10:01 AM
 
A horrible accident, as was this incident:

Friendly fire tank blast kills two
From correspondents in Iraq
26mar03

TWO British tank crew have been killed in Iraq after they were fired on by comrades in another British tank.

The four-man crew of a Challenger II tank were locked in a battle with Iraqi forces west of Basra when they were mistakenly targeted by another Challenger, the British army said today.

A single tank round killed two of the four-man crew.
Link

Both incidents, as described by The Guardian
     
theolein
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Mar 31, 2003, 10:15 AM
 
When is the UK going to pull out of the war?
weird wabbit
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 31, 2003, 10:26 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
When is the UK going to pull out of the war?
Ask Robin Cook.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Mar 31, 2003, 12:58 PM
 
The most sofisticated piece of electonics on a A10 is the CRT they use to review the picture from the Maveric missles video camera as they aquire the target. Thats why the air force doesn't like the A10 it doesn't have enough bells and wistles for them.
     
simonjames
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:15 PM
 
According to the report on the news this morning the American attacked the British tanks even though they were displaying the correct friendly insignia; they had the friendly infra-red lights on; they were flying the Union Jack; and they lit friendly coloured flares (red). And the guy kept coming in for another attack until he had wiped out two tanks.

A very sad day - the actions of the American were deliberate. But, given the history of America killing friendlies, he'll get away scot free.
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KeyLimePi
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:35 PM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
...the actions of the American were deliberate.
So, you're saying that he chose to attack coalition members? And have you spoken with this pilot or did this insight just come to you in a dream?
     
Developer
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:35 PM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
And the guy kept coming in for another attack until he had wiped out two tanks.
Is it difficult to distinguish British from Russian tanks?
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
Kitschy
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:37 PM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
...[T]he actions of the American were deliberate.
That is ridiculous.
     
simonjames
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:51 PM
 
His actions were deliberate - how much friggin more did the British have to do to convince him they were friendlies?

And he came around for another shot after they fired the flares.

Deliberate 110%

I don't need to speak to anyone when the facts are as black and white as these.
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KeyLimePi
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Mar 31, 2003, 05:57 PM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
I don't need to speak to anyone when the facts are as black and white as these.
The "facts" do not support your own arguement. He obviously was trying to destroy tanks...that's his job. You have no proof whatsoever that he knew the tanks in question were coalition forces.

Scientific Note: From where you are your arguement is swirling down the toilet clockwise. If you were here it would be swirling counter-clockwise.
     
simonjames
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Mar 31, 2003, 06:05 PM
 
Like most pro-war Americans you have your head firmly in the red, white and blue sand.

Tell me - how does a pilot not see red flare smoke? You going to tell me they were in a sand storm? They were not.

Tell me - does a pilot not check for the large orange sign with the friendly insignia before commencing fire?

Tell me - do cowboy American pilots shoot at every target they see first before determining if they are friendly or not? I guess this one did.

Scientific Exercise Lose your blind devotion to your country for one minute - try to imagine you as one of the British soldiers being attacked by the cowboy.
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KeyLimePi
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Mar 31, 2003, 06:21 PM
 
If anyone is letting their loyalty blind them it is you. You can't even differntiate between a mistake and a deliberate act. British soldiers blew up one of their own tanks yesterday...why don't you assume that was deliberate? Because you've got a big ol' American chip on your shoulder, that's why.

If you want to hate Americans that's between you and your therapist but don't claim to 'know' that an act was deliberate when you're thousands of miles and at least two realities away from where it took place.
     
mr. natural
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Mar 31, 2003, 06:25 PM
 
He was probably hyped-up on amphetamines, which our pilots are freely given. This is after all a war against Saddam, not drugs.

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give the appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell
     
Face Ache
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Mar 31, 2003, 09:59 PM
 
There are cowboys in every armed force. And there are mistakes made by every armed force. Two different things that sometimes overlap.

I read last week of a report (not widely circulated) about a US forward base coming under US friendly fire and firing back. Now that's funny in a sick kind of way. I guess it's kill or be killed.

No wonder it wasn't widely reported.
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 1, 2003, 12:38 PM
 
Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
Scientific Note: From where you are your arguement is swirling down the toilet clockwise. If you were here it would be swirling counter-clockwise.
This is an urban myth. The swirling of tap water is related to the position of the plugs relative to the sink, not the position of the sink relative to the equator
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 1, 2003, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
... British soldiers blew up one of their own tanks yesterday...why don't you assume that was deliberate?...
Because they didn't come back for another strafing run.

Either this A10 pilot was shooting up the Brits deliberately (not unlike the 101st Airborne, who apparently throw grenades at each other for fun) or he was wilfully not looking. One pass is a mistake, two passes is either deliberate or stupid. In either case the cowboy should be grounded (as he almost certainly is).
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Hugi
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Apr 1, 2003, 01:08 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Because they didn't come back for another strafing run.

Either this A10 pilot was shooting up the Brits deliberately (not unlike the 101st Airborne, who apparently throw grenades at each other for fun) or he was wilfully not looking. One pass is a mistake, two passes is either deliberate or stupid. In either case the cowboy should be grounded (as he almost certainly is).
My guess is that he realized his mistake after the first run, panicked and came back to destroy the witnesses.

     
mikerally
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Apr 1, 2003, 03:47 PM
 
If anyone is letting their loyalty blind them it is you. You can't even differntiate between a mistake and a deliberate act. British soldiers blew up one of their own tanks yesterday...why don't you assume that was deliberate? Because you've got a big ol' American chip on your shoulder, that's why.

If you want to hate Americans that's between you and your therapist but don't claim to 'know' that an act was deliberate when you're thousands of miles and at least two realities away from where it took place.
Regardless of whether it was a mistake or not, you cannot deny the pilot acted irresponsibly - it was reported that he specifically broke away from the rest of his group just to take out those tanks - and nobody ordered him to take out those tanks or leave his group.

Troops are mean to follow the commands of their superiors, they are not meant to think for themselves - that leads to questioning those orders
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 1, 2003, 03:50 PM
 
Originally posted by mikerally:
Regardless of whether it was a mistake or not, you cannot deny the pilot acted irresponsibly - it was reported that he specifically broke away from the rest of his group just to take out those tanks - and nobody ordered him to take out those tanks or leave his group.

Troops are mean to follow the commands of their superiors, they are not meant to think for themselves - that leads to questioning those orders
Pure speculation.

You have no idea what his rules of engagement were, or how much individual initiative he was given.
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 1, 2003, 03:51 PM
 
Originally posted by mikerally:Troops are mean to follow the commands of their superiors, they are not meant to think for themselves - that leads to questioning those orders
Beware - this way leads to Nuremburg.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 1, 2003, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
at least two realities away from where it took place.
No doubt this is where the pilot was at the time, totally strung out on sleep deprivation and far too many amphetamines.

Many minds do not take kindly to the combination, and use of the latter is known to be encouraged in the Air Force.

-s*
     
rambo47
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Apr 1, 2003, 05:45 PM
 
To suggest the pilot deliberately lit up a British tank is childish and retarded. Was it a screw-up? Definitley, and of the highest order. But what possible motivation could a coalition pilot have to kill allies? Mistaken identification seems a bit more plausable, hm? Just think a little before opening your mouth and people will have more respect for you.
     
simonjames
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Apr 1, 2003, 05:58 PM
 
go Rambo - name calling with all the gusto of a 10 year old girl.

And b-t-w I don't even want to speak with a person who has chosen Rambo as his online name - let alone get you to respect me.

Tosser
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Lerkfish
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Apr 1, 2003, 06:02 PM
 
Originally posted by rambo47:
To suggest the pilot deliberately lit up a British tank is childish and retarded. Was it a screw-up? Definitley, and of the highest order. But what possible motivation could a coalition pilot have to kill allies? Mistaken identification seems a bit more plausable, hm? Just think a little before opening your mouth and people will have more respect for you.
totally as a sidetrack: what motivation could an allied soldier have to toss grenades into a command tent at camp Pennsylvania?

Not that I think this incident is similar, but I think you cannot simply dismiss the possibility out of hand.
     
Kitschy
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Apr 1, 2003, 06:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
totally as a sidetrack: what motivation could an allied soldier have to toss grenades into a command tent at camp Pennsylvania?
Not a sidetrack at all. The motivation of "Islamic fundamentalism" is the only motivation that I could think of for a situation like this to to arise again (aside from technical errors that may have occurred).

To think that an American soldier could to this to an ally, let alone an American ON PURPOSE astonishes me.
     
   
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