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Henry Norr
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christ
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Apr 25, 2003, 07:46 AM
 
Story to date - Henry Norr has been fired from his post as a technology writer with a newspaper for attending an anti-war demo.

Is the paper right to fire him?

(For the pro-war crowd) As the article says, what if your boss was anti-war, and he fired you for not going to an anti-war demo?
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
lemondrop
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Apr 25, 2003, 08:14 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Story to date - Henry Norr has been fired from his post as a technology writer with a newspaper for attending an anti-war demo.

Is the paper right to fire him?

(For the pro-war crowd) As the article says, what if your boss was anti-war, and he fired you for not going to an anti-war demo?
Ol' "Tail Gunner Joe" should be smiling. Henry Norr's political orientation shouldn't affect his job performance? It's like drug test, who cares if I got high on friday night? As long as I show up sober to work on Monday morning. He writes about computers, if he can still do his damn job why should anyone care? As long as he doesn't pull **** like "Steve Jobs is the Saddam of the computing industry. The good guy out to destroy the evil and larger America (Microsoft)." This whole thing is lamer then I am in bed.
     
spacefreak
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Apr 25, 2003, 08:45 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Henry Norr has been fired from his post as a technology writer with a newspaper for attending an anti-war demo.

Is the paper right to fire him?
The article mentions that he was arrested at the demonstration, and Norr's passage mentions yet another subsequent arrest. I think that makes somewhat of a difference in this case. What good is an employee if he/she is consistantly in and out of jail?

I'd also like to know the official SF Chronicle reason given to Norr for his firing. He mentions corporate policies, but never the actual reason given to him for his dismissal.

Norr can't even present the proper facts on his own firing, choosing instead to make this into some sort of constitutional violation conspiracy.
     
Lerkfish
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Apr 25, 2003, 09:11 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
The article mentions that he was arrested at the demonstration, and Norr's passage mentions yet another subsequent arrest. I think that makes somewhat of a difference in this case. What good is an employee if he/she is consistantly in and out of jail?

I'd also like to know the official SF Chronicle reason given to Norr for his firing. He mentions corporate policies, but never the actual reason given to him for his dismissal.

Norr can't even present the proper facts on his own firing, choosing instead to make this into some sort of constitutional violation conspiracy.
well, as you point out, there are missing bits of information on this case that would make it a lot easier to judge.

My unanswered questions from the article:

1. what is the exact company policy on participation in political events? It differs from paper to paper so I'd have a hard time commenting without that information. I CAN say that most papers I've worked at have a very specific policy about participation in political causes, which is at times infuriating in their draconian nature, but ultimately understandable if the paper wishes to maintain as much of an appearance of impartiality as possible.
I know in my own case, I abstain from signing petitions and joining organizations even if I completely agree with them. For example, if I did not have this job, I would belong to many organizations like ACLU, Amnesty International, etc, etc. I WOULD be active politically and perhaps even run for office. But being a journalist, I have nominally given up those participations, mainly due to strict company policies prohibiting same.
Now, the big question remains whether that's a violation of my rights as a citizen, and I think it is, definitely, but there are legitimate issues surrounding it which ameliorate that infringement that I'm willing to live with.
2. Since the union considers it a worthy case for a grievance, it leads me to believe there is at least some merit in the case, but I cannot tell from that article how much. obviously, its heavily slanted.
3. The issue of jail time to me is a red herring, if the jail time is ONLY due to being present at a protest. that brings in freedom of speech issues separate from company policy.
To discriminate based on that is the same as limiting free speech in abstract.


of course, this is all IMHO
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 25, 2003, 09:31 AM
 
False alarm. It turns out that he was fired for noting on his time card that his day in jail was a 'sick day'. His employers apparently disagreed with his definition of 'sick'.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Lerkfish
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Apr 25, 2003, 10:14 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
False alarm. It turns out that he was fired for noting on his time card that his day in jail was a 'sick day'. His employers apparently disagreed with his definition of 'sick'.
um...actually if what you say is correct, I know of no paper that would suspend and then fire someone for simply calling in a fake sick day. that really DOES sound like a free speech issue, then, if the reason given is not his noncompliance with a set policy of political nonparticipation.

That's odd, if true, and a weird tack for the employer to take when they would probably have had a more legitimate concern under company policy. do you have a link?
     
davesimondotcom
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Apr 25, 2003, 10:28 AM
 
Depends on the guy's work history, doesn't it?

I mean, if he's called in fake sick days in the past and been caught and warned, I can understand it.

If this is his "first offense", I can't. Except for that honesty is a major factor in journalism <big wink> and if he was in jail and called it a sick day, that could be construed as a lack of honesty.

We don't know all the facts here. Both sides (Norr and the company) are going to give facts that make their side look better. But we don't know the politics of the office, Norr's work performance, his reviews, etc.

It's hard to make this a "free speech" case, since there are so many other factors.

If he'd have walked in and said "I went to an anti-war rally." And the boss said, "In that case, your fired." That would be different.

EDIT: I should also mention, if he had been sent there to REPORT on the rally, and ended up participating, then getting arrested, that might be grounds for dismissal too. But that is not the case here.
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chris v
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Apr 25, 2003, 10:32 AM
 
I thought that if you had accrued sick time, you could use it at your discretion. Do they require medical proof al la doctor's note to prove you were actually ill? Maybe that varies from employer to employer or state to state. Maybe asking a supervisor "can I take a sick day tomorrow?" wouldn't be a bad idea, but attempting to use one's benefits should not be a big deal. If he had used a vacation day, the company would be out the money, and he would be out the comp time, no matter how you describe it.

It really boils down to scemantics, and a minor lapse of judgement that would rationally have been dealt with in 90% of cases with a simple "don't do that again-- uses vacation time instead, or else," from the supervisor.

Of course, we also have no history of his past lapses, and this could have been a last-straw event that they had been hoping for so they could rid themselves of a troublesome employee. Did they site any past history of abuses of priviledges or benefits?

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When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Apr 25, 2003, 10:59 AM
 
heh. Wouldn't it be nice if all employers offered 'sick days'. There is no such thing where I work. If I'm at the beach and I call in to work 'sick' - and my employer discovers I lied...then I get fired. Looks like my employer is not any different than others.
     
Lerkfish
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Apr 25, 2003, 11:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
heh. Wouldn't it be nice if all employers offered 'sick days'. There is no such thing where I work. If I'm at the beach and I call in to work 'sick' - and my employer discovers I lied...then I get fired. Looks like my employer is not any different than others.
it varies from employer to employer. Where I work we have 3-5 "PA days" or personal days, where you can take a sudden day off without having to be sick necessarily to do so.
     
vmpaul
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Apr 25, 2003, 11:58 AM
 
That is a bummer. I read his column regularly. He was quite pro-Mac as well. Had one of the first columns I ever saw on Wi-Fi. He actually knew his stuff.
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 25, 2003, 12:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
um...actually if what you say is correct, I know of no paper that would suspend and then fire someone for simply calling in a fake sick day. that really DOES sound like a free speech issue, then, if the reason given is not his noncompliance with a set policy of political nonparticipation.

That's odd, if true, and a weird tack for the employer to take when they would probably have had a more legitimate concern under company policy. do you have a link?
Here is one, and google gets you a bunch more.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Lerkfish
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Apr 25, 2003, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Here is one, and google gets you a bunch more.
ok, bypassing for the moment that this is one side of the issue (Norr's), if even part of what he wrote there is correct, he has an excellent case for fighting this in court.
Since he did his protesting on an approved (apparently) leave of absence, and no concerns were directly related to him in writing, other than rumor, He could legitimately perceive a non-response to his PRIOR request to protest on his own time a tacit approval, unless it was strictly proscribed in the employee handbook, etc.

The problem that we're going to run into here is that the company by law can't tell their side of the human resource story completely without infringing on this guy's confidentiality, so we're not going to get an accurate view of their side of the story. he could be faithful and accurate in what he is reporting, but we can't know that for sure, we'll only have his side unless this makes it to an actual courtroom.

I imagine he is telling the truth, but we can't know.

I would further wonder whether he was protesting AS an employee of the paper or using his notoriety as a reporter in the protest or whether he is only after the fact. (hard to know). If he even remotely mentioned his employer during the protest, I think he's hurt his own case. If he only operated as a private citizen, I think he's in the clear.

IMHO

ps-thanks for the link!
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:07 PM
 
From my perspective, if I told my boss "I am going to go out and try to get arrested, and if I manage it I'll call any time that I spend in jail 'sick' time", I would expect my boss to suggest that this was not the correct manner to behave. Ergo my apology further up the thread.

However, also from my perspective, if my boss declined to point out the error in my logic in advance, I would be mightily dischuffed if, later, he chose to discipline me for it.

I'll be interested in how this turns out.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
daimoni
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:15 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Jul 10, 2004 at 10:42 AM. )
.
     
Lerkfish
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:17 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
He called in sick when it was obvious he was out prancing about in the streets (which would mean he's not sick).

In other words, he lied on his time sheet. This is grounds for dismissal. Simple as that.

If he had 'vacation' days or 'personal/floating holiday' day accrued, he could've used that... but he didn't.

And now he's paying the price. Move on.
"prancing in the streets"?
     
daimoni
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:19 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Jul 10, 2004 at 10:42 AM. )
.
     
christ  (op)
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:29 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
..prancing about in the streets (which would mean he's not sick)...
Not necessarily. I believe that you can both be sick and prance (in the streets or otherwise). There must be any number of ailments that ere not prace-inhibitors.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
scottiB
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Apr 25, 2003, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
False alarm. It turns out that he was fired for noting on his time card that his day in jail was a 'sick day'. His employers apparently disagreed with his definition of 'sick'.
Dude, he was sick--he was sick of being put down by The Man!!

Can I get a hell yeah?
I am stupidest when I try to be funny.
     
thunderous_funker
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Apr 25, 2003, 06:31 PM
 
Was he in jail that day or protesting? Calling in sick and being in jail seems not so abusive. Calling in sick but actually protesting sounds pretty flakey and questionable.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
   
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