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vmarks, are you there?
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christ
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:32 AM
 
In an earlier thread, you used the phrase "...an Arab instead of a Jew..." (and I wrote the following, but I guess you had stopped checking the thread, so please do me the favour of responding to this one)

I would have said "a Christian instead of a Jew". I thought that Jews were followers of Judaism, and that Arabs were natives of Arabia, so Arabs could be Jews. Is this incorrect? Is "Jew" now taken to mean an ethnic group (as opposed to Arabs, or caucasians, or Europeans, or whatever)? I have noted increasing references to secular Jews, and that concept makes my head hurt. As you may have gathered I was brought up as a Gentile, but as I don't practise any religion I don't consider myself Christian - I'm not sure that we have 'secular Christians'. Does a secular Jew still count as a Jew? I am confused by the term 'Jewish-American', as there doesn't seem to be a complimentary 'Christian-American' or 'agnostic-American', while there obviously is 'African-American', which seems to be based on skin colour rather than country of origin.

I would have thought that Fatah were looking to kill 'settlers' (at least that is what the article [in the previous thread] quotes them as saying), and if Israel were to settle occupied or disputed territory with Christian settlers, then they would be targets too. Am I misunderstanding this too?

(and before you jump down my throat, this is intended as a serious question, not as an invitation to a bonf
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:33 AM
 
ire)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
voodoo
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Mar 26, 2004, 07:23 AM
 
Not all Israelis are Jews, many of those who are Israeli Jews are immigrants from other countries... Are they Arabs then because they live in the Middle East? I don't know.
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vmarks
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Mar 26, 2004, 07:59 AM
 
Chris,

I've been busy with work and haven't had the opportunity to respond yet. I'm out the door right now, but I haven't forgotten you and will write the reply later on when I can give you the attention you (and it) deserve.

Thanks for your interest, and for following up.

Voodoo: your assertion strikes me as trying to state that Israel is a colonist state. This isn't wholly true- it was founded by Jews who had lived there for thousands of years, Jews who were refugees from the surrounding Arab countries who were tired of being second class subhumans in those nations, and later there was an influx of refugees from Europe, and even later, refugees from Russia. But you must not forget the Jews who had always lived there, and the ones who sought refuge and freedom from the oppression of neighboring Arab countries. You also might not forget that the Jews were aided in founding the nation by Arabs, aiding the work with NILI, who spied for the British against the French and Turkish. Of course non-Jews in Israel are not automatically Arabs. There are European Christians who became Israelis, but they are far fewer in number than the Arab Christians, Muslim, Druze, and Bedouin.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
     
voodoo
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Mar 26, 2004, 08:04 AM
 
vmarks: if I was implying something I'd have made it more clear

I stand by what I wrote as I wrote it. It is factually true.
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Krusty
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Mar 26, 2004, 08:21 AM
 
Well, I definitely can't speak for vmarks, but my understanding from my Jewish friends has been that one is Jewish by birth if their mother is Jewish. There can be practicing and non-practicing Jewish people but they're still "Jewish" despite the level to which they observe the religion. Its not exactly a race per se nor is it exactly purely a religion ... more like being part of community or nationality. For example, I'm an American (US) citizen by birth regardless of how patriotic or unpatriotic I am, what my technical racial mix is, or where I happen to be located at the time (whether inside or outside the US). Unless I go through some major steps to NOT be an American anymore (explicitly renounce my citizenship), I will always be one. My roommate thru most of my college years was a Jewish guy who observed Passover and ate mostly Kosher the rest of the year (I shared a lot of cheese-only or vegetable only pizzas with him over the years and snacked on his leftover macaroons once Passover was finished ) However, most of the other Jewish people I knew in school really didn't think about or observe Kosher dietary restrictions at all --- but they were still "Jewish".

edit: oops, I see vmarks posted while I was writing this.
     
Logic
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Mar 26, 2004, 08:36 AM
 
.....moved.....
( Last edited by Logic; Mar 26, 2004 at 01:37 PM. )

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 26, 2004, 11:24 AM
 
May I have my thread back please?

I'm sure that there is room out there for a thread (or several) debating the legitimacy of Israel, but this isn't it.

This is the thread in which I (and anyone else that is interested) find out whether Jews share a race, a religion, or a Nationality, and why it is so difficult to define exactly what a 'Jew' is.

I'm pretty sure that one could be an Arab Jew. Could one be a Muslim Jew? I know that one could be a Christian (Messianic) Jew, so maybe it is possible. Could one be a Sikh Jew?

What is it that makes a Jew a Jew?

Is it, as posited above simply a matter of the Jewishness of the mother? (which dodges the question, as in that case is it the religion of the mother, or the ethnic caste of the mother, or ...)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Logic
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Mar 26, 2004, 01:36 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
May I have my thread back please?
Sorry, I'll start a new thread about it. I just felt I needed to answer vmarks' claim.

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
eklipse
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Mar 26, 2004, 02:36 PM
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

Jew is a term used to denote both followers of a religion and members of an ethnicity (adj. Jewish). In a religious sense, the term refers to followers of Judaism. In an ethnic sense, it refers to those who have once joined the nation which traces its ancestry from the patriarch Abraham through his son Isaac and in particular Jacob, the son of Issac. Ethnic Jews include both Observant Jews and those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.

Judaism is a combination of a religion and a non-exclusive ethnic group (i.e. this ethnic group has a way to allow others to join). Its religious beliefs are discussed in detail in the entry on Judaism; this article discusses the ethnic group.

Mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by one who is Jewish to Jewish principles of faith does not make one lose one's Jewish status. However, the Israeli legal definition of a Jew excludes those who have joined other religions.
     
Zimphire
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Mar 26, 2004, 02:43 PM
 
Funny, the moment vmarks leaves and says he is busy with work at the moment, is the very same time people bombard the forum with anti-Israel threads and posts.

Coincidence?

I think not.

"Guys vmarks will be away, lets spew as much crap about Israel as we can get away with while he is gone, HURRY!!!!"

Yes it is that transparent.
( Last edited by Zimphire; Mar 26, 2004 at 02:51 PM. )
     
eklipse
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Mar 26, 2004, 03:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Funny, the moment vmarks leaves and says he is busy with work at the moment, is the very same time people bombard the forum with anti-Israel threads and posts.

Coincidence?

I think not.

"Guys vmarks will be away, lets spew as much crap about Israel as we can get away with while he is gone, HURRY!!!!"

Yes it is that transparent.
WTF are you talking about?
     
voodoo
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Mar 26, 2004, 03:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Funny, the moment vmarks leaves and says he is busy with work at the moment, is the very same time people bombard the forum with anti-Israel threads and posts.

Coincidence?

I think not.

"Guys vmarks will be away, lets spew as much crap about Israel as we can get away with while he is gone, HURRY!!!!"

Yes it is that transparent.
It would be funny if it were true.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
DeathToWindows
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Mar 26, 2004, 04:44 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
May I have my thread back please?


sure. just let me try first


I'm pretty sure that one could be an Arab Jew. Could one be a Muslim Jew? I know that one could be a Christian (Messianic) Jew, so maybe it is possible. Could one be a Sikh Jew?

What is it that makes a Jew a Jew?

Is it, as posited above simply a matter of the Jewishness of the mother? (which dodges the question, as in that case is it the religion of the mother, or the ethnic caste of the mother, or ...)
arab jew ; possible (arab being a reference to area of habitation)
muslim jew : nope... muslim generally connotes Islam
christian jew : Judaism does not recogionize jesus as the messiah, therefore this is invalid in regard to Jewish theological teachings
sikh jew : different religion to be a sikh... so nope

I am a reform jew and as such I don't really follow the matrilineal descent of religion therory - my mother converted incidentialy. it matters how one was raised - and that means that two religions in one body don;t really work

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Lerkfish
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Mar 26, 2004, 05:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Funny, the moment vmarks leaves and says he is busy with work at the moment, is the very same time people bombard the forum with anti-Israel threads and posts.

Coincidence?

I think not.

"Guys vmarks will be away, lets spew as much crap about Israel as we can get away with while he is gone, HURRY!!!!"

Yes it is that transparent.
actually, I would lay money that the increase of threads on Isreal is due to the recent missile assasination of Yassin.

I doubt anyone else cares whether vmarks is on vacation or not, regarding whether they start or post in various threads.

for our viewing pleasure:

     
Zimphire
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Mar 26, 2004, 05:49 PM
 
Lerk, people are bringing back posts that vmarks debunked long ago knowing he isn't here to make fun of them now. So they can claim smackdown.

( Last edited by Zimphire; Mar 26, 2004 at 06:15 PM. )
     
Zimphire
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Mar 26, 2004, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I think the fact that Logic's post has gone almost four hours with nothing resembling a counter-arguement counts as a smackdown.
Tin foil hat indeed.
     
SubGeniux
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
THose terms in recent history ae most commonly used in tems of race, but in times of old it had more to do with what area you came from, the language you spoke, the tribe you came from, and the God you worshipped. Many Arabs were/are Jews, and vice versa, there's even the Cochin Jews of India. Arabs themwselves, or Arabic speaking people, came from roughly the area that is today Jordan and North S. Arabia (not taking into account the Southern Arabians). Jethro in the Bible, whom Moses dwelt with, wa a Midianite, an Arab (Midianites held the areas of Sinai, to well inside modern day Saudi Arabia. Of course, we know Moses married into this family, and the further joining of Hebrews and non-Hebrews (Arabs). Thintg is, it';s such a small area, and inter-tribal marriages were common place, what mattered was what religion you decided to follow.
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SubGeniux
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:11 PM
 
Also, if one wishes, we cold say all Jews, are really descended from Arabs, since Abraham came from what is modern day S.E. Iraq/Kuwait, he and his tribes moved west to Palestine.
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Zimphire
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:14 PM
 
And Both groups have been blessed by God, or Allah, or whatever you want to call him.
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 26, 2004, 06:31 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Jew is a term used ... <interesting stuff snipped>
So - wikipedia doesn't know either then (I knew that, I am familiar with wikipedia, but thanks anyway ek) The issue that I am interested in is exactly the issue highlighted by the circuitous non-definition that is given there.

The last paragraph sums up my problem - "belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew" This is very odd - for most religions belief in the principles of that religion does make one an adherent of that religion. I am particularly interested in the notion that you can be an ethnic Jew, as this seems to lead to the apparently contradictory existence of e.g. Sikh Jews, which wikipedia dodges. I am also interested in the Israeli definition of Jew (both the fact that it has one, and that it is so apparently narrow) - why does Israel need to define a Jew? What does Israel's definition mean to non-Israelis?

I am also (as noted in the first post) interested of the juxtaposition of Jew and Arab, as performed by vmarks.

Zimph - as I asked others earlier, please give me my thread back. This is not, repeat not, intended as an anti-anything thread, it is an information gathering exercise , as I am not closed-minded, and I wish to learn - unlike those amongst us that know everything, If you want to start a bashing-people-that-start-threads-that-vmarks-might-not-like thread, then go do it - this thread was explicitly started to involve vmarks, and I await his return with interest.

Originally posted by DtW:
christian jew : Judaism does not recogionize jesus as the messiah, therefore this is invalid in regard to Jewish theological teachings
What then, prithee, is a 'Messianic Jew'? Judaism may exclude folk that believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but Christianity doesn't exclude Jews (apparently). This appears to be an example of a situation where Judaism is less tolerant than Christianity.

What is a 'reform jew'?

(Why don't you capitalise proper nouns?)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
SubGeniux
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Mar 26, 2004, 08:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
And Both groups have been blessed by God, or Allah, or whatever you want to call him.
Yup. The thing about the people in that part of the world, and one of the saddest in view of the current troubles, is that racially they are pretty much the same, their languages are similar, the history of Jews and Muslims has been one, for the most part, of co-existence. At the time of Muhammed, Jews in Arabia proper were a mix of Palestinian, Iraqi, and Arabian Jews, they were actually a major force in what is today Medina in S. Arabia. With the coming of Islam, Jews still prospered, in Islamic Spain, Jews reached another major pnacle, the second golden age of Judaism, with huge advances in all many areas of life, and Jews and Muslims lived harmoniously together. Jews viewing Muslims as being followers of the one true God, and Muslims looking at Jews being people of the book, the same wuth Chtistians.
It's an irony that this period in history brought all the tribes, and peoples of the Mid-East together, in a way that wasn't sen before, and hasn't been seen afterwards.

It's sad that the ony differnce between the Jews if the Mid-East, and the Arabs, is just one of religion. Same racial group, they are comprised from the same fathers, same tribes, etc. Just wish we could see it today.
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SubGeniux
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Mar 26, 2004, 08:22 PM
 
Christ - there's no such thing a an ethnic Jew, bot today, and never has been. The term Jew was only applied as a name to the collective beliefs of the Israelites after the Babylonian captivity. Jews of that time were the sanerace as the rest of the Mid-\east, with allowances for the mixture of people like the Hittites who moved into the northern areas of the Mid-\east (non-Semitic speaking tribes). Jews today are ethnically varied, from the Jews of Europe, to those in Africa, the Mid-East, India, China, etc. We can apply the term Jewish race to thos who profess the belief in the Jewish religion, but it would be hard to say that there is such a thing as a genetic Jewish race, despite attempts to say there is, becaues if Jews marrying out, marryingh into people from Europe, Africa, and due to the huge amount of proselytising done before Jesus even lived.
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christ  (op)
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Mar 27, 2004, 05:57 AM
 
Originally posted by SubGeniux:
Christ - there's no such thing a an ethnic Jew, bot today, and never has been.
So how do you explain (from the wikipedia definition above) "Jew is a term used to denote both followers of a religion and members of an ethnicity (adj. Jewish). In a religious sense, the term refers to followers of Judaism. In an ethnic sense, it refers to those who have once joined the nation which traces its ancestry from the patriarch Abraham through his son Isaac and in particular Jacob, the son of Issac. Ethnic Jews include both Observant Jews and those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense."

If you have to practise Judaism to be a Jew, where does that leave non-practising Jewry?
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
SubGeniux
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Mar 27, 2004, 07:24 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
So how do you explain (from the wikipedia definition above) "Jew is a term used to denote both followers of a religion and members of an ethnicity (adj. Jewish). In a religious sense, the term refers to followers of Judaism. In an ethnic sense, it refers to those who have once joined the nation which traces its ancestry from the patriarch Abraham through his son Isaac and in particular Jacob, the son of Issac. Ethnic Jews include both Observant Jews and those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense."

If you have to practise Judaism to be a Jew, where does that leave non-practising Jewry?
I know, it does sound a bit confusing. I think what happens is that because of the history of the followers of Judaism (Jews) is one of migration outside of where they originated from. The tendency then to attatch oneself to the greater body of Judaism, culturally, and even religiously, and to the common belief of where we came from, etc brings out that sense of nationality, and ethnicity, but in reality Jews from any given part of the world, religious, or not, might have nothing in common to do with those Israelites, or even later Jews in terms of a genetic similarity.

In Egypt before the time of Jesus, Jews had a large presence there, which was also one of the greatest moments in Jewish history for proselytising. The sheer number of converts, and that Jews from Palestine who lived ther and became absorbed into Egyptrian culture at that time, brought about the creation of the Septuagint Bible to account for those converts who didn't speak Hebrew, and to those Jews who had lost the ability to read it too.
This shows us that fro mthe very earliest stages, Jews are comprised from many groups who were not from the Israelites of Palestine, therefore we would have to include that mix of DNA into the Jewish people.

I think what happens too, especially today, is that Jewish awareness is at a peak, that there is a tendency to bring about a sense of Judaism to all Jew, whether believers or not, and that means including those who were followers of Judaism but left, and those who continue to associate themselves to Judaism. This also means that Jews are aware of people who might have a Jewish name, or Jewish history, ad the tendency to bring them back to the flock, even though they woudn't thikn of themselves as being Jewish annymore. It's this need to bring back the Jewish people,, those that strayed from th covenant. It doesn't really mean that there is a common ethnic group, not even religiously, in the stricktest sense. It's more to do with that common held belief in God, the God of the Jews. Ecen in Judaism there are huge religious, and cultural differences, how we interpret the Bible is as varied as many other religions.

Have a look at the Karaite Jews of Paleastine to see how Jews in religion and cultural can be opposites at times.
sanathana sarathi
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SubGeniux
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Mar 27, 2004, 07:30 AM
 
sanathana sarathi
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christ  (op)
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Mar 27, 2004, 07:39 AM
 
Originally posted by SubGeniux:
... there is a tendency to bring about a sense of Judaism to all Jew, whether believers or not...
Thanks for your interest

This confuses me (a confessed Gentile - if that means 'non-Jew'). I confess to using 'ethnic' as a word without strictly meaning 'genetically similar'. I intended 'cutural' rather than racial connotations.

If Jews are bonded by a common religion, how can non-believers be Jews? Surely non-believers, by definition, don't believe all religions equally, and therefore can no more be considered Jews as they can be considered e.g. Zoroastrians ("I am a non-believing Scientologist" has a sort of odd ring to it, don't you think?) Is it possible to be a Jewish agnostic?

I am also intrigued by your:

...Jews are aware of people who might have a Jewish name, or Jewish history, ad the tendency to bring them back to the flock, even though they woudn't thikn of themselves as being Jewish annymore...
How does a Jew determine who makes a good candidate for being 'brought back' into Judaism? Is a Jewish name really good enough reason for a Jew to consider someone else is a potential 'returnee'?

If you are born to (assume for ease of explanation practising) Jewish parents, are you a Jew? Even if you don't believe? It is absolutely not the case that someone born to Christian parents is automatically a Christian - most tend to agnosticism until they are old enough to decide, and then most (through apathy or disinterest) remain that way by default. It appears to take conscious effort for a new family member to join most religions, but heritage alone is sufficient to join Jewry.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
SubGeniux
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Mar 27, 2004, 08:43 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Thanks for your interest

This confuses me (a confessed Gentile - if that means 'non-Jew'). I confess to using 'ethnic' as a word without strictly meaning 'genetically similar'. I intended 'cutural' rather than racial connotations.

If Jews are bonded by a common religion, how can non-believers be Jews? Surely non-believers, by definition, don't believe all religions equally, and therefore can no more be considered Jews as they can be considered e.g. Zoroastrians ("I am a non-believing Scientologist" has a sort of odd ring to it, don't you think?) Is it possible to be a Jewish agnostic?
Yup, one can be a Jewish atheist (it's known to happen) Think of it like this, you have this cultural, religious, and social entity, in which over the years a common theme has developed from within it, and can be found amongst the members inside, but the members can be as diverse as any society taken as a whole. Within this, you'l find those who adhere to the very basic principles of what the entity might have stood for, and those who have abandoned those very same principles, but there is a common cultural trait that exists. It's that thing which people use to identify themselves to being Jewish. Of course though, if a Jew abandoned the religious beliefs of his family, then within a few generations, any link to Judaism will be lost, and those descendats will be absorbed into whatever culture they happen to be in. It's always happening, and has done I guess.

I am also intrigued by your:



How does a Jew determine who makes a good candidate for being 'brought back' into Judaism? Is a Jewish name really good enough reason for a Jew to consider someone else is a potential 'returnee'?

If you are born to (assume for ease of explanation practising) Jewish parents, are you a Jew? Even if you don't believe? It is absolutely not the case that someone born to Christian parents is automatically a Christian - most tend to agnosticism until they are old enough to decide, and then most (through apathy or disinterest) remain that way by default. It appears to take conscious effort for a new family member to join most religions, but heritage alone is sufficient to join Jewry.
It's a funny thing though, because even if a Jew decides to turn their back against all things Jewish, they are still deemed to be Jewish by the Jewish community, if the person was born Jewish. If the persondecided to come back tp the faith, it wouldn't requite conversion. A lot of this has to do with how Judaism was in the person's family, ie. if the mother is/was Jewish. Anyone who decides to become ewish, a convcersion process hasto bedone, even if the person might have had Jewish heritage many generations ago, since a great deal of time has elapsed in which that person's ancestory split from Judaism and years of marrying out, and into other faiths has occurred. Again, if someone claims to be not Jewish now, but has Jewish roots recently proven, such as the mother, or grand-motrher was a follower of Judaism, then it's a lot easier.

I think it's all just custom, and cultural though.

P.s, I wrote all this pretty late at nigt here with one eye open, the other MIA, lol, i've probab;y not explained it any better though. I'l try to make it a little succinct tomorrow.

regards.
sanathana sarathi
si tacuisses philosophus mansisses
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 28, 2004, 07:57 AM
 
So basically Jewishness is custom and culture, rather than religion? That seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
voodoo
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Mar 28, 2004, 08:07 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
So basically Jewishness is custom and culture, rather than religion? That seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
I thought it was both. The importance of the culture and traditions was almost as important to maintain for Jews as their religion.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Zimphire
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Mar 28, 2004, 03:19 PM
 
I know non-religious Jews.
     
voodoo
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Mar 28, 2004, 06:35 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I know non-religious Jews.
Racist.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Zimphire
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Mar 28, 2004, 07:30 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Racist.
     
voodoo
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Mar 28, 2004, 08:22 PM
 
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 29, 2004, 10:58 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I know non-religious Jews.
So, join in - what makes them Jews?
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Zimphire
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Mar 29, 2004, 07:08 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
So, join in - what makes them Jews?
Their pointy noses and two horns of course.
     
voodoo
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Mar 29, 2004, 07:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Their pointy noses and two horns of course.
Do they make you bite the pillow?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
SubGeniux
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Mar 29, 2004, 07:19 PM
 
This might be of interest.

http://www.shj.org/
sanathana sarathi
si tacuisses philosophus mansisses
     
christ  (op)
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Mar 30, 2004, 04:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Their pointy noses and two horns of course.
Thanks for your constructive input.

(PS Pointy?)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Zimphire
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Mar 30, 2004, 09:22 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Do they make you bite the pillow?
No, but they seem to make you bite yours.
     
voodoo
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Mar 30, 2004, 12:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, but they seem to make you bite yours.
Actually I have to be careful women don't nibble on mine when I have it slung over my shoulder.

I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
   
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