[subego]

Made the mistake of calling it the “Delta Quadrant”.

Now it’s stuck.

[ghporter]

Ouch. That’s going to last a while.

It seems that a lot of people are getting a refresher in the Greek alphabet lately. Is Epsilon far from emergence? Let’s ask the mouth-breathing, mask-hating, antivax virus deniers next week. There are at least a few of them around here, though the bigger issue seems to be dining inside restaurants and wearing masks SO wrong they just look stupid.

At PT Tuesday my therapist offered me a plain procedure mask (the disposable kind that you couldn’t buy for $20 each a year ago) to replace my epic Captain America fabric mask because he was working my tail hard. Some people take it seriously, and that’s good to know.

[subego]

Epsilon didn’t kill himself.

[reader50]

For a fun time with the mouth breathers, no-mask types. Since they know everything, ask if they've heard any news. About if Schrödinger's cat survived the science experiment.

Since they probably can't spell Schrödinger, they'll have a hard time looking it up. At least both of their likely answers will be right (and wrong).

[OreoCookie]

I got my second dose of Moderna on Wednesday, and sure enough it put me out on Thursday with a head ache and muscle pain. One day later and I am fine, with the exception of a swollen lymph node and that the tissue near the injection site is warm to the touch. I’m so happy I’m vaccinated and can’t wait to have full protection in about two weeks’ time.

[ghporter]

Your experience was a little more unpleasant than mine for the second shot. But like you, I was fine the next day.

Around here, a lot of establishments have signs that say “fully vaccinated customers do not need to wear masks.” Bah. I don’t trust a LOT of people to be honest about that, and especially since I’m still about two weeks from finishing a tedious (and not terribly fun or convenient) 24/7 IV antibiotic regimen, I wear a mask everywhere anyway. But at least I’m protected in situations where I might be exposed to something new…

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Your experience was a little more unpleasant than mine for the second shot. But like you, I was fine the next day.

My brother had it worse, I think it took him three days to recover. I’m quite lucky that I am in a rest week (sports-wise), so I didn’t do strenuous activity before and could easily skip my workout the day after the vaccination. Plus, I am recovered in time for my race this weekend. Woot.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Around here, a lot of establishments have signs that say “fully vaccinated customers do not need to wear masks.” Bah. I don’t trust a LOT of people to be honest about that, […]

Plus, the feeling of safety is also false: vaccines protect against becoming seriously ill from Covid-19, including all known variants. But vaccines are significantly less effective when it comes to protecting against infections from especially the delta variant. That means even vaccinated people should wear masks to prevent infections and especially hospitalizations.

Also, it is not true that anyone who wants to get vaccinated can. My wife is pregnant, for example, so even though she could have scheduled an appointment, none of the vaccines is currently approved to be given to pregnant women.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

[…] and especially since I’m still about two weeks from finishing a tedious (and not terribly fun or convenient) 24/7 IV antibiotic regimen, I wear a mask everywhere anyway. But at least I’m protected in situations where I might be exposed to something new…

I think the last good reason is to protect people who are not and/or cannot be vaccinated by wearing a mask. Mask wearing >> business restrictions, vaccinations >> lockdown.

[The Final Shortcut]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Plus, the feeling of safety is also false: vaccines protect against becoming seriously ill from Covid-19, including all known variants. But vaccines are significantly less effective when it comes to protecting against infections from especially the delta variant. That means even vaccinated people should wear masks to prevent infections and especially hospitalizations.

I’ve been under the impression that two-shot vaccines such as P/M in particular appear to be quite effective against delta. Is that not the case?

Also, it is not true that anyone who wants to get vaccinated can. My wife is pregnant, for example, so even though she could have scheduled an appointment, none of the vaccines is currently approved to be given to pregnant women.

Is that a regional thing? As far as I’m aware they’re giving vaccines to preggers in Canada, although I’m sure there are specific pregnancy risk factors.

[ghporter]

It seems that the better/two shot vaccines are less effective at preventing the delta variant than preventing the original virus. However, evidence shows that most people who ARE vaccinated and still get the virus, even delta, don’t get as sick, nor require hospitalization as frequently.

So while they aren’t perfect, vaccinations DO help immensely. Conversely, 99+% of people getting hospitalized and dying from COVID at this point in time are not vaccinated at all. They are simply walking virus mutation labs, spreading new variants with every breath. Please note that the sarcasm is real; not being vaccinated ON PURPOSE, with all we know right now isn’t just stupid, it’s dangerous.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut 

I’ve been under the impression that two-shot vaccines such as P/M in particular appear to be quite effective against delta. Is that not the case?

When people say vaccines are/aren’t effective against the delta variant, they usually talk about different risks. Getting the vaccine will definitely protect you, but probably you need a refresher that has been tailored against the delta (and other variants) to protect others as well. Vaccines are highly effective (90+ %) protecting against death and serious cases of Covid-19. But they are moderately effective (about 60 %) against preventing infections. The best data comes AFAIK from Israel (Pfizer only since they only used that vaccine) and Great Britain for a variety of vaccines; the numbers vary a little across the different vaccines, but are all consistent.

That means vaccinated people contribute to spreading the delta variant, exposing unvaccinated and people with compromised immune system to risk. Hence, the recommendation that even vaccinated people should wear masks indoors if you are in an area where the delta variant is prevalent.

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut 

Is that a regional thing? As far as I’m aware they’re giving vaccines to preggers in Canada, although I’m sure there are specific pregnancy risk factors.

You are right, it seems that in US pregnant women can get vaccinated. Globally, the situation seems more complicated. I reckon I did too much navel gazing, the German body in charge of making recommendations when it comes to vaccines is quite conservative. And I just surprised my wife that she is able to get vaccinated (in Japan), at least according to the page by John Hopkins University that I just linked to.

Personally, I’m not worried about the efficacy or severe side effects, I was just under the impression that the approval for pregnant women was still ways off. Thanks for making me double check.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

It seems that the better/two shot vaccines are less effective at preventing the delta variant than preventing the original virus. However, evidence shows that most people who ARE vaccinated and still get the virus, even delta, don’t get as sick, nor require hospitalization as frequently.

Yes. AFAIK some vaccinated people still need to be hospitalized, but almost all of the patients with severe and terminal cases have not been vaccinated.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

So while they aren’t perfect, vaccinations DO help immensely.

YES!

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Conversely, 99+% of people getting hospitalized and dying from COVID at this point in time are not vaccinated at all. They are simply walking virus mutation labs, spreading new variants with every breath. Please note that the sarcasm is real; not being vaccinated ON PURPOSE, with all we know right now isn’t just stupid, it’s dangerous.

I just have sympathy for people who cannot get vaccinated (e. g. currently children below the age of 12).

[Thorzdad]

Texas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.

[ghporter]

Yeah. And the amazing thing is there still aren’t enormous lines for “get me that shot!!!”. I don’t get it.

I am fully vaccinated, but I don’t trust just about anyone I don’t really personally know, so I mask up all the time. The medical facilities I spend too much time in lately all require masks - note that they’re DoD facilities, so our revered Governor’s opinions don’t have any impact on them.

On that note, the Department of Defense has given military commanders authority to question a Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine’s vaccination status if said person is not wearing a mask. Since every single thing a member of the military is constrained in one way or another, this decision falls right in line with the rest of a service member’s life. And knowing that someone can ORDER you to show that you’re vaccinated or “put that damn mask on now!” should make a bunch of people reassess how they demonstrate their individuality.

[Thorzdad]

I read a story yesterday about a nurse in Alabama (#50 in state vaccination status) who has had to deal with young people hospitalized with COVID and begging her to give them the vaccination. She’s repeatedly had to break the news to them that it was too late for any vaccine to help them.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Yeah. And the amazing thing is there still aren’t enormous lines for “get me that shot!!!”. I don’t get it.

Me neither. I was ecstatic when I heard that it did not even take a year for a vaccine to come to market and got vaccinated the first chance I got. I’m less than a week away from the vaccine taking full effect. This is really something that is quite unique about the US, that even vaccinations have become a partisan issue.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I am fully vaccinated, but I don’t trust just about anyone I don’t really personally know, so I mask up all the time.

Plus, people who don’t know that you are vaccinated but they themselves can’t get vaccinated feel more at ease.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

And knowing that someone can ORDER you to show that you’re vaccinated or “put that damn mask on now!” should make a bunch of people reassess how they demonstrate their individuality.

It’s a bit of a mystery why people who feel strongly about their individuality would join the military in the first place, though.

[subego]

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, I was told many people in the US military believe they should never volunteer for something.

Since the vaccine is voluntary, it’s “no thank you sir”.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, I was told many people in the US military believe they should never volunteer for something.

I’m not quite sure I understand your point. People in the US military have already volunteered to serve in the military, no? And a vaccine is different from volunteering to go on a dangerous mission.

[subego]

Another way of putting “never volunteer” is “never do anything the military isn’t forcing me to do”. To be fair, one of the ways the military gets away with shady shit is asking for volunteers, but my guess is for most it’s a way to vent their need to assert independence.

Not everybody feels the need to do that obviously.

[ghporter]

I wasn’t asked if I wanted the Hepatitis A or B vaccines; they just gave them to me. I don’t understand why there’s any choice in the military about this particular vaccine.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I wasn’t asked if I wanted the Hepatitis A or B vaccines; they just gave them to me. I don’t understand why there’s any choice in the military about this particular vaccine.

My understanding is a vaccine needs full FDA approval before the military can force personnel to take it.

The COVID vaccines were fast-tracked, so they don’t have full FDA approval yet.

[reader50]

Pfizer has filed for full approval. However, a spokesman says they're not expecting it before January 2022.

Last I heard, Moderna was talking about filing for full approval, but hadn't actually done so.

[ghporter]

According to Duke’s Law School, “emergency use” vaccines require individual “informed consent,” which individuals can withhold. The President can determine that it is in “the national interest” to waive the informed consent requirement for such vaccines. He hasn’t done that yet.

However, there’s an awful lot of content in having someone senior to you, especially your commander, ask a pointed question about something like “are you vaccinated?”

It’s all on the up and up too. If you aren’t vaccinated, you may not be ready to deploy with your unit, which impacts unit readiness - and reflects on your entire chain of command. So having your commander ask you - maybe frequently - if you have been vaccinated is a valid question to ask. Because your commander is probably having to report to his or her commander (all the way up the chain) about who is and isn’t vaccinated

And your commander isn’t “ordering” you to do anything. But it gets to be a hassle to tell the person who decides if you get promoted or not, or even if you get to stay in the military at all, “not yet sir” over and over. I feel that this will be a less than subtle inducement for those who just didn’t want to bother with the shot to get it over with.

And those who feel “mah rahts” are an issue, a bit of education about how important it is for everyone in the unit to be available to serve should either adjust their attitude, or reveal closet Trumpists - who can then be questioned about whether or not they really understood that oath they swore when they signed up.

Frankly, a whole lot of people who only enlisted “for the educational benefits” had that attitude altered in 1990 when it became clear that they WOULD go to Saudi to support liberating Kuwait.

If you signed up, you signed up for the whole thing, not just education, medical, or even basic pay. And your enlistment contract includes agreeing to just about any requirement you can physically perform. Fitness tests; vaccinations against typhoid, smallpox, “whoknowswhat-itis”; showing up in uniform and ready to work whenever called on; and much much more are part of the normal - and almost universally understood - military life.

And there’s a quality of “suck it up, Soldier” that’s part of the culture. You don’t want the shot? Why not? That 110 pound female Sergeant First Class got her shots when they were first available, so why can’t you? Honestly, this 62 year old disabled vet got his shots ASAP, and so did his retired nurse wife of a similar age. Big bad Jarhead or Grunt can’t put up with a little needle? Wahhh; I cry huge tears for you. Yeah, I can get that way, especially about something as important as this.

Finally, whether the virus was created or just emerged, there are adversaries who could benefit from a less-than-ready US Military. All it would take would be to have them interact with a local who (without our guys knowing it) was exposed to a new and horrible variant; that could decimate our forces without our enemies firing a shot.

So it’s valid for any commander to keep tabs on who isn’t vaccinated, even if they can’t order individuals to receive the shot. And it’s valid for those of us who are already vaccinated to be less than cordial or friendly to a military person who can’t be bothered.

[subego]

For whatever reason the Air Force are being holdouts. As of a month ago, their active duty “one jab” rate was 61%. Just a hair over the Marines, who were at 58%.

Army was 70%. Navy was at 77%. I’m sure the non-operational aircraft carrier thingy played a role in them toeing the line.

[ghporter]

Airmen have a (traditional) reputation as being spoiled and coddled. But as soon as a real mission is in a situation where they need a whole unit to hit the ground somewhere, I'm pretty sure that "extra content" I talked about earlier will be employed.

And I also think that once the importance of vaccination is really brought home to everyone (they CAN order you to sit through so many educational sessions that your brain starts throbbing), the compliance rate will go up.

Still, if a bunch of NURSES actually got themselves fired for not getting vaccinated (because it's "experimental"?), and nurses are supposed to be scientists... Maybe I'm just hopeful.

[subego]

I feel what brings it home is being only three points ahead of the crayon eaters.

[Laminar]

The summer camp I worked at all of those years ago decided to have camp again this year after cancelling it last year. They reduced cabin sizes and make other accommodations. Until a large storm popped up that required the entire camp to shelter in place in a small, packed, poorly ventilated basement. Guess what happened 5 days later during the next week of camp? Covid breakout among the staff! They had to cancel that week of camp and send everyone home because so many staff were testing positive. They're still getting reports in of positive tests from the previous week's campers, too. Since most of the campers are under 17 they can't get vaccinated. But counselors are typically college students that were eligible but decided for whatever reason not to get the shot. Even though they planned to spend the entire summer in close proximity with 100% unvaccinated members of many many different households.

[andi*pandi]

Maybe the camps were just so happy to have counselors they didn't push the vax requirement...

in NE some camps cancelled for lack of staff. International staffing also was an issue - lack of visas and travel from some countries. One of my daughters camp programs was cancelled because they couldn't get counselors with those skills to come.

Just dropped her off for a backpacking camp. Pooled testing on arrival, had to fill out an app stating no symptoms... she is fully vaxed as is her tentmate.

[subego]

Looks like masks are back on the menu, boys!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Looks like masks are back on the menu, boys!

… and girls!
Otherwise vaccinated people help spread the delta variant, even though we are not likely to have a serious case of Covid-19.

[ghporter]

subego, I see what you did there. And I like it.

While I think CDC took it’s sweet time to come out with this guidance, at least they added a rationale that’s clear and pretty unambiguous.

Way back when, they waffled several times. Oh and the old research error that was “conventional wisdom” until it turned out to be completely wrong didn’t help much either.

Honestly, since we’re really just literally playing some of this by ear, having a solid rationale for a change in guidance is golden.

[Laminar]

That's a fascinating article. I know we've wondered about aerosol transmission from the beginning, and the choir practice was a famous example of people well beyond 6 feet and out of direct "line of fire" that all caught it, but someone no one was willing to make the connection?

[Thorzdad]

Missouri AG wages war on masks.

[reader50]

But ... but Republicans are all about local control. Why is he trying to dictate to cities?

Actually, I'm not sure what to say. At least the majority of those dying are likely to have voted for him. Maybe he'll pay in the next election.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by reader50 

But ... but Republicans are all about local control. Why is he trying to dictate to cities?

Isn't it obvious that this only applies to certain things?
It isn't the first time states forced the non-implementation of Covid restrictions onto their communities. Ditto for “critical race theory” in school curriculums or restrictions of letting transgender students participate in school sports.

[Spheric Harlot]

Republicans are all about FREEDOM unless you're a woman, or black, or…

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Republicans are all about FREEDOM unless you're a woman, or black, or…

poor, or sick, or...

[ghporter]

It’s the same here in Texas. Our governor has issued an executive order preventing local governments from establishing occupancy limits, mask mandates, and so on. Despite horrible surging numbers of new cases and much sicker people.

[Thorzdad]

That’s the governor who said people would be proud to die to save the economy, isn’t it?

[reader50]

Close. It was the Lt. Governor of Texas, Dan Patrick.

In an interview with Fox News host Tucker Carlson on March 23, 2020, Patrick stated that he was willing to risk his life from the COVID-19 pandemic if it would avoid an economic shutdown, which he stated would negatively impact subsequent generations. Patrick also stated that he thought many grandparents agreed with him on this.

Strangely, I've yet to meet any grandparents willing to die to maintain stock market values. Mr. Patrick could be wrong.

[subego]

Yesterday.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

That’s the governor who said people would be proud to die to save the economy, isn’t it?

I honestly don’t know if he said that or not. But Abbot’s nose is so far up special interests’ orifices - mostly rich white people who don’t like non-rich, non-white people - that he may not have the cojones to actually say stupid stuff like that out loud.

[reader50]

Originally Posted by subego 

Yesterday.

Chicago subways look more dangerous than usual. Is that the morning Special for dumb people? Love the chin masks.

[subego]

Lollapalooza weekend. Way too much money riding on it to cancel.

Even without a pandemic you couldn’t get me into a station that full. I’d just walk. JFC.

[ghporter]

I find that I've come to enjoy televised concerts quite a bit. Jimmy Buffett's concerts are streamed on his Margaritaville TV website, and they're a lot of fun. Without the folks next to you being stupid, rude, sloppy drunk or whatever.

I also don't have to worry whether the earplugs I brought are beefy enough, since when you buy your seats you never know where the speaker stacks are going to be. When everybody from Roger Daltrey to Pat Benatar to Huey Lewis is pushing "use hearing protection, or you'll be deaf like us", I don't need to be reminded my hearing is perishable.

And anyway, maybe I'm a fuddy duddy, but I don't see "seeing my favorite band" as on the same priority level as "not being among a bunch of virus factories/distributors" and "not getting sick from something really preventable".

[Thorzdad]

How dommes are convincing subs to get vaccinated.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Looks like masks are back on the menu, boys!

Corporate reinstated our mask requirement for everyone, unvaxxed or not, in all conference rooms, meeting areas, places where social distancing isn't possible, and to and from our workstations.

[Thorzdad]

Good to hear. Has there been any angry pushback from certain employees?

[Laminar]

There was much puffing of air at this morning's meeting. It's pretty obvious that the only way to get the unvaccinated to mask up is if everyone has to mask up. I forgot how annoying it is to have the safety goggles always fogging up.

[ghporter]

Eyewear can be a hassle with masks, but there are ways to minimize fogging.

For a long time - well before Mr. Pandemic visited us - I’ve worn a procedure mask while using my mower, edger and leaf blower. Here in San Antonio there are enough allergens that you might wind up feeling choked just from sweeping up lawn clippings, so… Anyway, I ALWAYS wear eye protection when I work in the yard, so the mask was a problem at first.

First, make sure the mask fits closely over your nose. Disposable procedure masks’ nose wires/bars should be pliable enough to match your nose. Pay attention to bending the thing to match the contour super closely. That helps a lot.

Next, check how the safety goggles fit on your nose. If they’re “glasses style”, experiment with where the nose piece fits on your nose in relation to the mask. Often just a little movement up or down the nose will prevent any fogging.

If they’re “goggles” as we usually think of them, they probably give you fogging issues without a mask. Again, adjusting where the nose piece sits on your nose can reduce mask-induced fogging. But there’s a catch. I learned from using face shields that if you can ventilate any sort of protective eyewear at the top, you’re ahead of the game. Usually, and with luck.

The last method I have is anti-fog treatments. Some are actually very effective, like this one and this one (both from Amazon). It might not hurt to just start with using each of these strategies together: fit the mask really closely, adjust where the eyewear sits on the nose, make sure it’s vented, AND use a treatment on the eyewear.

Since we’re at a point where EVERYBODY should be doing everything they can to block transmission of anything, it won’t hurt to think of eye protection as another line of defense. It’s still thought that the virus can be transferred by contaminated hands to the eyes. Your tear ducts drain into your nasal cavity, which is a prime site for infection, so keeping the damn thing out of your face, and especially your eyes, is a great strategy.

[subego]

Spit is a good emergency anti fog coating.

If you pull in your jaw, like you have a massive overbite, it vents a lot of the breath downwards. You’d look like an idiot, but the mask covers that.