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dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 02:07 PM

It's OUTRAGEOUS!! I finally riched 100% switch rate from PC to Mac in my house and work, I did this at a cerain cost, but it was all in the philosophy of Intel and Microsoft where out to get us by the wallet, but apparently the game is changing now.

9 days ago I bought at the local Apple Store my first G5, an iMac 1.6Ghz, at the time of the purchase, I asked the sales guy when Tiger was comming, he told "not before the next WWDC", in June, so I went ahead and bought the iMac with Panther installed. For my surprise, yesterday Apple anounced Tiger's final release. I called Apple about the fact that my system is a BRAND NEW G5, and they are finally releasing a full 64bit OS to unleash the G5's full power, and they DENIED me to be included in the Upgrade Program, they say it's only for the computers bought AFTER the anouncement.

Now, here is what Apple's website states:

"Price protection
If Apple reduces the price on any product within 10 calendar days of shipment, you can request a refund or credit of the difference between the price you were charged and the current price. To receive the refund or credit you must contact Apple within 14 business days of shipment. To request a refund, just fill out the form below.

Upgrade protection
We will fulfill your order with the most current version available at shipment time. If the current version changes between the time you place your order and we ship it, you will be asked via email to confirm your order. If you have a question about upgrade protection for an item in your order, please fill out the form below."

The CSR at Apple told me I would have to BUY Tiger for 129,00 if I want to upgrade, and that was the end of it.

I believe that is unfair. If you have an Athlon 64 and a Windows XP Pro license, Microsoft will gladly replace your license with a Wndos XP Pro 64BIT edition, at NO COST.

Now, who's the bad guy now?

Altough Panther can run 64Bit APPS, the very core is 32bit, so I paid 1300 bucks for a machine to use half of it? Apple tells me that that is it...

I'm seriously thinking of going back to WINTEL, at least MS is honest enough to replace their OS for those who have a 64bit PC.

tooki · Apr 14, 2005, 02:18 PM

*yawn*

1. Apple's upgrade policy has always been clear, and it's always been like this.
2. Try submitting the upgrade form anyway, often they'll honor it even though you weren't actually eligible.
3. You don't need 64-bit capability to "unleash" the G5 -- there is no speed difference between running 32- and 64-bit code, just the maximum addressable memory of a process, which as a normal home user is simply a non-issue: you can't even put enough RAM in an iMac to reach the 32-bit limit.
4. The Apple Store guy shouldn't have told you a date, because he was speculating. Apple employees are told on a strictly need-to-know basis, and even key personnel like regional sales managers aren't told of new products until the public is.

tooki

Krypton · Apr 14, 2005, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

*yawn*

2. Try submitting the upgrade form anyway, often they'll honor it even though you weren't actually eligible.

tooki

Bingo - your serial number will almost certainly be in the range that they require in order to get the upgrade.

OptimusG4 · Apr 14, 2005, 02:39 PM

Well to be honest, the forums for the last few weeks have been filled with talk like this, stating that with Tiger supposedly GM April 1, the best time to buy a mac and guarantee Tiger is after it is officially announced. Even if you had ordered your Mac April 11, you may have been able to cancel the order and then redo it so that you can get a copy of Tiger at the fulfillment cost. It's not like Apple changed policy all of a sudden; it's been this way even since Panther was first unleashed, and possibly before hand.

Angus_D · Apr 14, 2005, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

I believe that is unfair. If you have an Athlon 64 and a Windows XP Pro license, Microsoft will gladly replace your license with a Wndos XP Pro 64BIT edition, at NO COST.

So they'll replace Windows XP with Windows XP? What you're asking for is for them to replace Windows XP with Longhorn.

betasp · Apr 14, 2005, 03:02 PM

9 days ago. Take your computer back for a refund then order another if you want. MS would in no way upgrade you even if you ordered the PC the day before longhorn was announced. Of course they will do a license transfer for the same product, but the would not upgrade you from Windows 2000 to XP because you bought a new processor.

Superchicken · Apr 14, 2005, 03:23 PM

Call Apple, and complain. Be pissed off, sometimes if a customer is pissed off they look at the slight cost of the DVD the software comes on, and simply says, "It's better to keep a customer happy." You have a slight chance, just take it. Otherwise it's not as if if you really feel gipped you have to buy a copy of Tiger. But make sure to tell em that you had an apple rep tell you what day they thought it'd be out on and it wasn't soon.

lookmark · Apr 14, 2005, 03:46 PM

If you were told by a sales associate at an Apple Store that Tiger wouldn't be arriving before June -- total misinformation! -- I think you have a decent case for receiving Tiger for free (or at least, for the cost of the media + s&h). Be polite but firm expressing your unhappiness and you'll probably get it. Let us know how it turns out, and good luck.

CatOne · Apr 14, 2005, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by lookmark

If you were told by a sales associate at an Apple Store that Tiger wouldn't be arriving before June -- total misinformation! -- I think you have a decent case for receiving Tiger for free (or at least, for the cost of the media + s&h). Be polite but firm expressing your unhappiness and you'll probably get it. Let us know how it turns out, and good luck.

Come on, dude. It's not total misinformation. The Apple Store associates have NO idea when Tiger is going to ship, no more than you do, before the date is announced.

All the dates said "1H 2005" which the associate must have mistaken to mean "in June." Calling it total misinformation... you guys are a bunch of crybabies.

lookmark · Apr 14, 2005, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by CatOne

Come on, dude. It's not total misinformation. The Apple Store associates have NO idea when Tiger is going to ship, no more than you do, before the date is announced.

Yeah, you and I know that, but how's someone who's walked into an Apple Store for the first time supposed to know it?

It's misinformation, pure and simple, from an Apple sales associate (who knows, or should know, damn well Apple said they'd be releasing it any point in the 1st half of the year), and if it's true I think the OP has a good argument for Tiger for cost of media. My two cents.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 04:32 PM

Microsoft DID sent me a copy of WinXP Pro 64Bit edition with a new Acivation Key, and canceled the license # on the older.
I would not have a bit of trouble shipping back to Apple the original Panther discs to be replaced by Tiger. That would be the right thing to do. Again, I hate to say this, but MS policy on this it's fair, and Apple's is not.

Eduardo Cesconetto.
www.fastermini.com

lookmark · Apr 14, 2005, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

Microsoft DID sent me a copy of WinXP Pro 64Bit edition with a new Acivation Key, and canceled the license # on the older.
I would not have a bit of trouble shipping back to Apple the original Panther discs to be replaced by Tiger. That would be the right thing to do. Again, I hate to say this, but MS policy on this it's fair, and Apple's is not.

Well, I wouldn't argue this based on whether Apple's policy is fair or unfair, as it's been their up-to-date policy for some time now. Them's the breaks. What's deceptive was the information you were given when purchasing, which was flat-out wrong.

Instead, I'd go back to the Apple Store from which you purchased your iMac, request to speak to a manager, and say that the purchase of your Mac was based partly on the assurance of a Sales Associate that Tiger wasn't going to be released until June. Be it honest mistake or calculated deception, you feel deceived by this, and you can't help but feel disappointed and dissatisfied with your Apple Store experience, etc.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 04:41 PM

I'll certainly do that.

The sore policy is 10 % restocking fee for any product returned before 30 days, since I paid 1300 for the computer, that'll cost me 130 dollars to do it, same as the Tiger price, in my case this is pointless, but for all the Mini costumers, would be a good way to "force" a good discount o Tiger.

Eduardo Cesconetto
www.fastermini.com

betasp · Apr 14, 2005, 04:50 PM

I just think you don't understand what I am saying. Would MS take a copy of windows 2000 back and send you XP if you bought a new PC 9 days before XP was ANNOUNCED.? I will tell you the answer. No! They would not. To say XP-XP64 is the same as Pather-Tiger is insane. You get absolutly no new features with the XP-XP64. You get nothing but a bunch of re-complied apps. That is it... nothing more. No new IE, no new Outlook Express, no new search engine, n-o-t-h-i-n-g. I am sorry you were too ignorant to do any research or to understand what the first half of 2005 means. Nothing is free in this world.

Move along... nothing to see here.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 04:54 PM

YES, I remember 2 cases:

1- My IBM Thinkpad came with Windows ME on it and a certificate to a Windows 2000 Upgrade for FREE, wich I used about 3 months after the deal.

2- Dell also updated the OS on a friend's Laptop from 2000 Pro to XP about a year ago.

Apple supose to be BETTER than them.
Apple supose to do the RIGHT THING to grow in the market.

Eduardo Cesconetto
www.fastermini.com

discotronic · Apr 14, 2005, 04:59 PM

Well, one thing is for sure, you are going to be even more pissed if the rumors of the new iMac being released in the next couple weeks come true.

Turias · Apr 14, 2005, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

I'll certainly do that.

The sore policy is 10 % restocking fee for any product returned before 30 days, since I paid 1300 for the computer, that'll cost me 130 dollars to do it, same as the Tiger price, in my case this is pointless, but for all the Mini costumers, would be a good way to "force" a good discount o Tiger.

There's a chance that if you respectfully talk to a manager at the Apple Store as lookmark suggested, you might be given Tiger for free. Don't even consider returning the machine for a new one. As you noted, the restocking fee wouldn't be worth it.

Deimos · Apr 14, 2005, 05:00 PM

After reading a number of comments in this forum, I'm wondering why some people are running around, trying to dismiss the 64 bit advantage. Saying that to the end-user there is virtually no benefit, is strikingly short-sighted.

I take it not many here work in the scientific fields? Without going into too much detail, our tests have consistently given us a dramatic performance boosts when using 64 bit software. We even, for a laugh, tried out several popular games recompiled for 64 bit machines, several were faster by a decent margin, and none were slower than their 32 bit companions (many who try to dispel the 64 bit world, instantly assume a sudden performance hit is expected).

There are indeed plenty of benefits for the end-user. Just load up the Panorama Factory(Windows), then sit back and enjoy how the 64 bit versions trounce the 32 bit ones. If not that, then try something more fun, POV-Ray, (32 & 64 bit versions) then sit back and enjoy. I can go on listing many recent, publicly available 64 bit versions of popular software to highlight my point.

Whatever arguments various people are putting forward to bolster up their misinformed opinions on this topic, just try some real-world examples first, then judge for yourself.

betasp · Apr 14, 2005, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

YES, I remember 2 cases:

1- My IBM Thinkpad came with Windows ME on it and a certificate to a Windows 2000 Upgrade for FREE, wich I used about 3 months after the deal.

2- Dell also updated the OS on a friend's Laptop from 2000 Pro to XP about a year ago.

Apple supose to be BETTER than them.
Apple supose to do the RIGHT THING to grow in the market.

Eduardo Cesconetto
www.fastermini.com

If Dell upgraded a Win2k license to a XP license for free, MS would like to speak with them. I am sure MS got their money for the software. Maybe if you had bought the system from MacMall, they would upgrade you. I can tell you MS would not. 2nd, some venders, IBM, Dell, Gateway and a few others did include coupons for Windows XP when it was released. This was done after the XP ship date was announce. This is EXACTLY what Apple has done. If you had ordered the IBM before the XP announcement you would have gotten squat. You bought you Apple before the Tiger announcement and therefore are entitled to jack squat.

FYI. I probably purchase 100 licenses and year for OSs of various venders including Apple, MS, IBM and Sun just to name a few. MS charges for everything and provides the worst licensing tools ever. I have files and files of MS licensing info. I take software seriously because I have to. I guarantee, MS always gets their money.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 05:19 PM

my machine was bought BEFORE the offical release date and IBM honored the upgrade. So sorry if your rep. can't do the same for you...

betasp · Apr 14, 2005, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

my machine was bought BEFORE the offical release date and IBM honored the upgrade. So sorry if your rep. can't do the same for you...

Please read... yes, but your machine was bought after the annoucement. XP was annouced and a ship date set 6 months before it left ther warehouse. Apple gave 2 weeks, not 6 months. Tiger has not been released just announced, just like you XP was.

There is no difference between what Apple has done and what MS has done in the past. MS just gave longer official notice. This is the way Apple works. Motorolla was even quoted as saying that they did not like the fact that Apple did not announce before the product was ready to ship. If you don't like it, don't buy Apple products.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 05:35 PM

Kudos to Kelly, the Manager at the Twelve Oaks Apple Store, she found a great solution, after hearing my case, she suggested that they could rewrite my receipt with today's date, so she did it and I'm now elegible for the 9.99 "up to date" program, problem solved.
I believe that 9.99 it;s a fair price for an OS upgrade, and I'll take it like a man.
Thanks for all the suggestions, critics and encouragement.

Eduardo Cesconetto
www.fastermini.com

cpac · Apr 14, 2005, 05:40 PM

exactly.

(1) if you buy after announcement, but before release, you get a free upgrade (Apple, just like MS, does this).

(2) since you didn't (and didn't bother to check here or any other rumor sites which as of 9 days ago were pretty positive Tiger had gone gold and that we'd get it by the end of April), you may STILL be able to get a free upgrade by b*tching loud enough.

NOTE: the b*tching you must do is to Apple employees, noth other forum posters.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 05:47 PM

True and False.

True: We're all forum posters, and we can agree to disagree like gentlemen (or girl gentlemen, pardon my bad english).

False: if you go to the store TODAY and buy a Mac, you won't get a FREE upgrade, you still have to pay 9.95 for it. But I believe we can consider that a "in a hurry to get my new computer home" fee.

lookmark · Apr 14, 2005, 05:48 PM

Good move, Kelly.

Glad to hear it worked out.

goMac · Apr 14, 2005, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

True and False.

True: We're all forum posters, and we can agree to disagree like gentlemen (or girl gentlemen, pardon my bad english).

False: if you go to the store TODAY and buy a Mac, you won't get a FREE upgrade, you still have to pay 9.95 for it. But I believe we can consider that a "in a hurry to get my new computer home" fee.

Tiger is a whole new version of OS X. It's not just simply a 64-bit version of Panther. It's comparable to the leap from Windows 2000 to Windows XP probably.

Panther also supports 64 bit processors. What it does not support is applications taking advantage of 64-bit memory addressing, but on your iMac G5 you'd never even be able to install enough RAM to take advantage of that.

IIRC Panther was given free to people who had G5's because Jaguar did not support 64 bit. But Panther does support 64 bit code.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 06:11 PM

you said it. 2000-XP use the SAME KERNEL, with a few mods, that's all...
OS9 to OS X it's what I cosider a leep. but that is just my opinion

tavilach · Apr 14, 2005, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by dotpage

YES, I remember 2 cases:

1- My IBM Thinkpad came with Windows ME on it and a certificate to a Windows 2000 Upgrade for FREE, wich I used about 3 months after the deal.

2- Dell also updated the OS on a friend's Laptop from 2000 Pro to XP about a year ago.

Apple supose to be BETTER than them.
Apple supose to do the RIGHT THING to grow in the market.

Eduardo Cesconetto
www.fastermini.com

Better? Define "better." Apple is a corporation, and as such, everything revolves around money. Do you think Steve Jobs give a rat's ass about you, or any Apple customers? Apple might not be a leeching corporation ala Microsoft, but if it were, even less people would find a "reason" to switch. One can think of it as a way to differentiate Apple products.

I love my Mac, and I love the OS. I love the way Apple pays attention to detail, and I'd never go back to Windows. I also like knowing that Apple is very innovative, and the product I get isn't going to just be a copy of someone else's product. Apple is like this solely for money, though. It's not out of the goodness of Steve Job's heart.

Complain about the policies all you want, but if you keep insisting that because Apple is supposedly "better," and always does the "right thing," you shouldn't be charged...well, you'll be making a fool out of yourself.

azdude · Apr 14, 2005, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by tavilach

Better? Define "better." Apple is a corporation, and as such, everything revolves around money. Do you think Steve Jobs give a rat's ass about you, or any Apple customers? Apple might not be a leeching corporation ala Microsoft, but if it were, even less people would find a "reason" to switch. One can think of it as a way to differentiate Apple products.

I love my Mac, and I love the OS. I love the way Apple pays attention to detail, and I'd never go back to Windows. I also like knowing that Apple is very innovative, and the product I get isn't going to just be a copy of someone else's product. Apple is like this solely for money, though. It's not out of the goodness of Steve Job's heart.

Complain about the policies all you want, but if you keep insisting that because Apple is supposedly "better," and always does the "right thing," you shouldn't be charged...well, you'll be making a fool out of yourself.

Somebody grew up since I was here last

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 09:23 PM

exactly because they're all about money, they should think of keeping costumers, not scaring them away.
The big corporate Apple employee, like the one that answer the 800 number, don't care about me, but the Store manager, who wants to keep the store sales up, selling more computers to people like me (at least once every 6 months, I upgrade one of the computers in the house or office) so she( the manager) can look good to corporate and keep her job, will give an elephant's ass about me.
she did the right thing.

Brass · Apr 14, 2005, 09:34 PM

So if all your family are now using Macs, does this mean you have more than one Mac there? If so, you'll probably need to buy a family license, anyhow (to use it legally on all the Macs).

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 10:01 PM

I don't want to use Tiger on all of them, I have Panther on the eMac, the iBook and the G4, the iMac G5 needs Tiger because of the full 64bit ssupport
the other machines are just fine

SkaGoat · Apr 14, 2005, 10:04 PM

I don't recall seeing him say he planned to install it on all the macs in the house, he was just angry is was in-eligible for the upgrade.

sure it's the same policy as MS, but like you said yourself MS announces the launch date 6 months in advance... not two weeks... a big difference, if I buy Windows 2 days before a announcement for a new product I knmow it's still 6 months away....

I don't expect to be up to date in 6 months, but I do expect to be up to date 2 weeks after.

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 10:36 PM

SkaGoat, you got my point.
Thanks

dotpage · Apr 14, 2005, 10:59 PM

just to complete my tought, if I really love tiger, and if I feel the need to or pourpose to have in all the other machines, I'll gladly pay for a family pack license.

hldan · Apr 15, 2005, 12:00 AM

My 2 cents about this whole upgrade issue is this. I have a 17" 1.33Ghz which was from a warranty replacement from AppleCare from my original 1Ghz model. This one shipped with Jag. Panther's release date was 2 days after I got my machine. I thought Apple would have pre-installed Panther or gave me the option to upgrade. They didn't.

I just went out and purchased Panther and now I purchasing Tiger. This is my second paid for OS upgrade of the full versions. It's all kool for me because it's my choice. We all have a choice and if some people choose to buy before the release of anything new coming out then you have to take the good with the bad. What's wrong with just buying your copy of Tiger? Most of us here don't have the latest model purchased after March 12th.
So other than the poster who got lucky, don't sweat it, just buy a copy.

icibaqu · Apr 15, 2005, 12:38 AM

hey dotpage

maybe you should post this result in the other places you made this same post. like in the mini forums and in on macminiforums.

just to be consistent

Anubis IV · Apr 15, 2005, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

IIRC Panther was given free to people who had G5's because Jaguar did not support 64 bit. But Panther does support 64 bit code.

My memory could be going, but as I recall Apple released 10.2.7 when the G5's debuted just because 10.2.6 and below weren't going to work with the G5. Not sure if that goes against what you said or not, honestly, but I thought it was a fun little tidbit to bring up.

dylanw · Apr 15, 2005, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by icibaqu

hey dotpage

maybe you should post this result in the other places you made this same post. like in the mini forums and in on macminiforums.

And maybe update that rant on your webpage.

msuper69 · Apr 15, 2005, 07:37 AM

jamil5454 · Apr 15, 2005, 08:17 AM

dotpage, Tiger is not fully 64-bit. In fact, you can run 64-bit apps in Panther too, it's just that Tiger has a few more libraries ported to 64-bit. If I were you, I'd wait until they had Tiger preinstalled on the machines at the Apple Store, and then just test them out. If you like Tiger a lot, buy a family license and install it on all your machine. It would suck to have Tiger on one machine and then have to go back to Panther after you've gotten used to Spotlight, Automater, etc...

dotpage · Apr 15, 2005, 09:21 AM

I'll update the website with the end of the problem this afternoon
thanks for everybody's ideas and comments.

Eduardo Cesconetto.
www.fastermini.com

tavilach · Apr 17, 2005, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by azdude

Somebody grew up since I was here last

Naw, it's just called common sense.