[Buckaroo]

http://www.abc4.com/mediacenter/loca...?videoId=59395

Video of shooting.

[SirCastor]

That's freaky. Didn't watch the video. I just got off the phone with someone who lives next store... crazy stuff.

[Buckaroo]

I think they said something about it being somebody in their 20's.

They think the shooter is dead.

[climber]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I think they said something about it being somebody in their 20's.

They think the shooter is dead.

I wish when people decide to kill themselves this way, they would start with themselves first.

[ink]

They usually do.

We live 5 blocks from Trolley Square.

[Dark Helmet]

Five die in apparent murder-suicide in Philadelphia - CNN.com

[ink]

Fark is calling for a trifecta.

[hickey]

and I just watched SLC Punk.

[centerchannel68]

I watched some of the video and it was just the news, not the actual shooting. Way to fake someone out and let them down.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Funny how deranged American white men and socially awkward teenagers with trench-coats and shotguns seem to be doing more killing of random people in the the last 6 years over any deaths caused by terrorists.

[BlueSky]

True, but if we stop going to malls then the socially awkward teenagers have won. They're part of the Acne of Evil.

[ink]

Salt Lake Tribune - Police ID victims, killer in shooting

The 18-year-old man who shot and killed at least five people Monday night has been identified as Sulejmen Talovic, a Bosnian refugee who lived in Salt Lake City.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ink 

a Bosnian refugee who lived in Salt Lake City.

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

Funny how deranged American white men and socially awkward teenagers with trench-coats and shotguns seem to be doing more killing of random people in the the last 6 years over any deaths caused by terrorists.

Funny how your xenophobic comments always seem to miss the mark.

Seriously SWG, grow up.

[placebo1969]

They need to out trenchcoats.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Why do this random idiot walking around with a bunch of guns picking people off randomly happen so often in the US though? There has to be a reason as this is NOT NORMAL!

At least it wasn't in a school this time.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

Why do this random idiot walking around with a bunch of guns picking people off randomly happen so often in the US though? There has to be a reason as this is NOT NORMAL!

At least it wasn't in a school this time.

Do random people not shooting people happen in other places? YES! YES IT DOES!

You are just obsessed with the US so it just seems that way.

The guy isn't even American.

Get that chip off your shoulder. I am sick of you de-railing threads with your anti-America obsession.

[Cipher13]

He's got a valid point. Deal with it rather than attributing it to a distaste for your country.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

He's got a valid point.

No, no he doesn't. Again the guy he is referring to isn't even American.

Deal with it rather than attributing it to a distaste for your country.

SWG's posts speak for themselves over the years. It isn't the first time that his Anti-Americanisms have derailed threads.

He was even wrong in this instance and he still went on about it attempting to save face.

Either you didn't pay attention to what was being said, or you just knee-jerked in defense.

[Cipher13]

Yes, yes he does have a point, one that for reasons unknown to me, you're deciding to ignore outright.

I'm also well aware of his anti-americanism, especially seeing as I share it (don't worry, I don't just despise your country, I'm no huge fan of mine either).

Perhaps you should look at the number of people massacred by terrorists, in comparison to the number of people massacred by abused/depressed/whatever people, and then take a look at the monetary spending associated with combating each of those problems.

You and I both know exactly what the result would be, and whether the guy in question in this story was American or Rhodesian doesn't matter at all, because the point still stands.

[Dark Helmet]

How often does a white man walking into a school, former workplace or mall and start going on a big suiside mission taking as many people out as they can with them in the US?

A LOT!

Does it happen in other parts of the world? Absolutely, but not half as much as the US. I can't remember the last time it happened in Canada.

The worst is when it is young kids though that PLAN it with another person, get armed to the teeth and walk into a school.

WHY is this more common in the US? It can't be just gun laws as Canada is more or less the same with the laws. So what causes these people to dress up matrix style and want to take out strangers without so much as a sign of emotion on their face?

My guess is culture. The US's general attitude is "violence is ok, sex/nudity is not". I for one was never allowed to have any toys as a kid that was gun or solder related and I agree with my parents on that one. Too often I see 6 year old kids running around with toy guns shooting each other saying "I killed you" and it makes me sick to watch.

Video games, TV, Movies, Rap video's all have lots of violence and kids may de-censitise to it which explains their calm and familiarity when doing it with real guns and people.

Whatever the reason is they have to find the root of it and fix it. And I don't think it is caused by gays, atheist, terrorists or Janet Jacksons nipple which is the main focus in the US.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Yes, yes he does have a point, one that for reasons unknown to me, you're deciding to ignore outright.

No

I'm also well aware of his anti-americanism, especially seeing as I share it (don't worry, I don't just despise your country, I'm no huge fan of mine either).

This explains your response. Anti-American zealots usually take up for other anti-American zealots. They have a chip on their shoulders.

Perhaps you should look at the number of people massacred by terrorists, in comparison to the number of people massacred by abused/depressed/whatever people, and then take a look at the monetary spending associated with combating each of those problems.

And I am saying that America doesn't have a monopoly on such things. And they do not.

You and I both know exactly what the result would be, and whether the guy in question in this story was American or Rhodesian doesn't matter at all, because the point still stands.

No it does matter. And the point doesn't stand. You claiming it does without backing it up in away way doesn't change that.

Him bashing Americans for actions that a American didn't take is silly.

He even went back and spun it later to save face.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

How often does a white man walking into a school, former workplace or mall and start going on a big suiside mission taking as many people out as they can with them in the US?

A LOT!

No not a lot. A lot would be a good percentage of the time. You are exaggerating.

Does it happen in other parts of the world? Absolutely, but not half as much as the US. I can't remember the last time it happened in Canada.

I would say it would be reported more. Our media IS different than other media. They tend to sensationalize such events to where EVERYONE in the world reads about them. If you want to rant about our media being different, then I would agree.

WHY is this more common in the US? It can't be just gun laws as Canada is more or less the same with the laws. So what causes these people to dress up matrix style and want to take out strangers without so much as a sign of emotion on their face?

You have to first prove the argument that violent acts are MORE COMMON in America. Something you have yet to do. And I am going to disappoint you when I tell you this. America is hardly the most violent country on this planet.

You feel this way because of your obsession with bashing America/Americans.

This has nothing to do with you being concerned. You just saw this as another opportunity to go "American Bashing"

You are transparent as glass SWG. If you didn't spin American bashing in about every post you make I'd take your ranting more seriously.

But that isn't the case.

Anti-American zealots are so queer.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

How often does a white man walking into a school, former workplace or mall and start going on a big suiside mission taking as many people out as they can with them in the US?

A LOT!

How wonderfully ambiguous... A lot compared to what? A lot compared to when?

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Whatever the reason is they have to find the root of it and fix it. And I don't think it is caused by gays, atheist, terrorists or Janet Jacksons nipple which is the main focus in the US.

I think it is caused by all of these things. There's a serious identity crisis happening in the US, and it's been happening for half a century. It's more and more difficult for people to figure out who they're supposed to be, how they're supposed to act, what they're supposed to do... Gays, atheist (I actually read this as 'athletes' first), terrorists or Janet Jacksons nipple are contributing factors. So are Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, Right-wing Evangelists, illegal immigrants... the list goes on.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

I can't remember the last time it happened in Canada.

It happens everywhere, Canada too. E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_P...nique_Massacre

That being said, I'm prepared to believe it happens MORE, per capita, in the U.S. than in other western countries. And that's more than an enduring shame, it's a problem no one wants to grapple with until it's their own shot and killed.

[Kevin]

SWG thrives on making ambiguous baseless accusations. And when you ask him to back them up, he usually disappears. OR ignores the request and spins more.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

No

That's good. Now considering the rest of your answers have about the same level of depth, despite the lack of such brevity , why don't you cut them all down to monosyllabic responses next time to save anyone who bothers to read them from wasting their time?

Originally Posted by Kevin 

This explains your response. Anti-American zealots usually take up for other anti-American zealots. They have a chip on their shoulders.

I don't dislike things "just because", I'm actually objective about such things. If I don't like something, there's a reason behind it, and it's not simply black and white. Unfortunately you're going to continue labelling people either black, or white, with no shades of gray; and of course, being either black or white will naturally come with all the misconceptions you associate therewith, regardless of... well, anything.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And I am saying that America doesn't have a monopoly on such things. And they do not.

Never said America did. Not once. In fact, if you read SWG's post, he said something directly contradictory to that little statement of yours. Why bother discussing this with me when you're not actually responding to anything I say, but rather to some deluded little dialogue going on inside your head? If you're going to do that at least play out both sides honestly rather than pretending I'm the antagonist here.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

No it does matter. And the point doesn't stand. You claiming it does without backing it up in away way doesn't change that.

Him bashing Americans for actions that a American didn't take is silly.

You need to get over this particular incident. As I said previously, it isn't relevant whether he was or wasn't American. I think you'll find generally the perpetrators of these crimes are indeed American. Learn to look at the broader issue, because that's what we're talking about.

[Kevin]

It happens everywhere, Canada too. E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_...nique_Massacre

I am sure SWG will just claim they were only copying America.

That being said, I'm prepared to believe it happens MORE, per capita, in the U.S. than in other western countries.

I would say it happens more per capita in large cities. America having TONS of large cities, more so than most any other western nation would is a great benefactor in this. But that isn't what SWG is attempting to project.

He is attempting to say that it happens more because we are somehow inferior to Canada etc. That is what most of his insecure rants are about. Making sure people know how much COOLER it is to be a Canadian.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

That's good. Now considering the rest of your answers have about the same level of depth, despite the lack of such brevity , why don't you cut them all down to monosyllabic responses next time to save anyone who bothers to read them from wasting their time? Why bother discussing this with me when you're not actually responding to anything I say, but rather to some deluded little monologue going on inside your head? If you're going to do that at least play out both sides honestly rather than pretending I'm the antagonist here.

Ah typical old school Cipher. Using lame ad-hominems cause he has no argument. I am going to clip out all of them and put them at the top and ignore them.

I don't dislike things "just because", I'm actually objective about such things. If I don't like something, there's a reason behind it, and it's not simply black and white. Unfortunately you're going to continue labelling people either black, or white, with no shades of gray; and of course, being either black or white will naturally come with all the misconceptions you associate therewith, regardless of... well, anything.

I am not labeling anyone black and white. If you are an anti-American zealot you are one. There are varying degrees of being one I am sure. I would never deny that.

Never said America did. Not once. In fact, if you read SWG's post, he said something directly contradictory to that little statement of yours.

A monopoly no. But he is saying it barely happens anywhere else, and it happens "ALL THE TIME" in America. That is dishonest. And you claimed he made a point. So I assumed you agreed with him.

As I said previously, it isn't relevant whether he was or wasn't American.

And I disagree. His rant didn't fit in this instance. Actually not in the last 3 instances that such a thing has taken place.

I think you'll find generally the perpetrators of these crimes are indeed American. Learn to look at the broader issue, because that's what we're talking about.

Well the last 2 or 3 that happened on this continent weren't American so...

Actually SWG was wrong in his original statement as well

Which was..

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

Funny how deranged American white men and socially awkward teenagers with trench-coats and shotguns seem to be doing more killing of random people in the the last 6 years over any deaths caused by terrorists.

Which is an all out absurd statement.

His intentions are what I am referring to as well.

SWG has a irrational hatred towards America and Americans that makes him say obnoxious things in this forum. Yes indeed he does.

My point is., it has nothing to do with "America" or "American culture" and more to do with tight living spaces.

of course there will be those that copycat these instances.

This has been happening well before America existed.

Fact is there are TONS of places that are more dangerous/violent than the US. But certain people ALWAYS obsess about the US and try to pass it off as if they care about such a thing, and it's just not Anti-US obsession.

When I see SWG start making threads about the violence in South Africa and be concerned about it I will take his anti-American FUD a bit more seriously.

Till then I am calling it what it is.

[Timo]

The US's level of urbanization, ~79%, is comparable to e.g., Northern Europe's at ~77%, or Canada's at ~75%

But you will be hard pressed to find the same level of gun violence in Northern Europe or Canada.

[Cipher13]

Well rather than competing with my supposedly lame ad-hominems, versus your painfully predictable inability to read between the lines and perhaps get the gist of what somebody is saying, or at least find the important elements therein, let me lay it out to you.

It happens in America more often than other modern western nations. It doesn't happen the MOST in America, nor does it happen "all the time" (that's what we call exaggeration); but it does happen an awful lot. Let's go back to the original statement I supported, which when stripped of the unimportant details you so tightly cling to, is along the lines of:

"More people have been killed in America by ****ed up people with serious mental problems than have been killed by terrorists."

That's the statement I was discussing, essentially.

Even if it isn't exactly correct there's still an interesting point there. Around 2973 people died in the 9/11 attacks, and let's face it, there haven't been 3000 people killed in massacres in the last 6 years.

Between 1980 and the present day, the following massacres have been recorded (according to Wikipedia, trust it at your own risk):

USA: 11
Aus: 5
UK: 2
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
Yemen: 1
Nepal: 1
Japan: 1
Switzerland: 1
Germany: 1

Based on population density, Australia is by far the worst there.

Knocking it down to the last 6 years, as discussed, there have been 4 in the US (all since 2005), 1 in Japan, 1 in Switzerland, and 1 in Germany.

Don't these numbers suggest anything to you? My comment was regarding the amount of money spent preventing "terrorism" versus the amount spent dealing with issues like these (these being what this thread started with). I think you'd find it unbelievably disproportionate.

Don't take my comments for anything more than they were. Whether or not I like your country doesn't even factor into this discussion.

This is my attempt at being reasonable with you, but take it as you will.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Timo 

The US's level of urbanization, ~79%, is comparable to e.g., Northern Europe's at ~77%, or Canada's at ~75%

How many LARGE cities do these have? The percentage of urbanization doesn't matter.

It's the largeness of the LARGE cities. This is where MOST crime happens. You'll find that most crime doesn't happen as much in smaller towns and such. You know where values and such are usually practiced.

Hell in most places in the US you don't have to lock your door.

It's the reason I wont live in a large city.

What cracks me up is, SWG is attempting to say it isn't the "gays liberals" etc that are causing this.. but most LARGE cities are pretty liberally oriented.

Not that I would say they were causing it either.

So no, these things aren't happening in conservative parts of the US as much as large cities.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Well rather than competing with my supposedly lame ad-hominems, versus your painfully predictable inability to read between the lines and perhaps get the gist of what somebody is saying, or at least find the important elements therein, let me lay it out to you.

Ah you are still doing it Cipher.

It happens in America more often than other modern western nations.

Depends on what you call "modern" nation. And I disagree.

It doesn't happen the MOST in America, nor does it happen "all the time" (that's what we call exaggeration);

I agree. Tell SWG that.

but it does happen an awful lot.

Exaggeration as well.

Let's go back to the original statement I supported, which when stripped of the unimportant details you so tightly cling to, is along the lines of:

You mean stripped of the parts that are asinine that I was arguing with.

"More people have been killed in America by ****ed up people with serious mental problems than have been killed by terrorists."

That's the statement I was discussing, essentially.

So you are saying that more people have been killed by Americans by people with mental problems than have been killed by terrorists? Really? You support that?

Even if it isn't exactly correct

It's not correct at all.

there's still an interesting point there.

He wasn't attempting to make a point. He just wanted to bash.

Around 2973 people died in the 9/11 attacks, and let's face it, there haven't been 3000 people killed in massacres in the last 6 years.

Indeed. But the 9/11 attacks were just one single terrorist action. There are TONS more you needed to add to that. Which is also why I said his statement was absurd.

Between 1980 and the present day, the following massacres have been recorded (according to Wikipedia, trust it at your own risk):

Oh I will

Based on population density, Australia is by far the worst there.

And why do we not see SWG constantly harping about Australia?

Knocking it down to the last 6 years, as discussed, there have been 4 in the US (all since 2005), 1 in Japan, 1 in Switzerland, and 1 in Germany.

Of those 4 how many where committed by an American? And does those 4 count the terrorists attacks on us? If so, they can't be counted. ( I bet they do )

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

How many LARGE cities do these have? The percentage of urbanization doesn't matter.

It's the largeness of the LARGE cities. This is where MOST crime happens. You'll find that most crime doesn't happen as much in smaller towns and such. You know where values and such are usually practiced.

Um, yes it does matter -- the measure is the same. Furthermore, the large cities of Canada and Northern Europe are comparable in size to US large cities, though not as comparable in demographics.

Take it from this large city dweller and Urban Studies major.

[and get a passport -- go abroad. You might be surprised how interesting it is]

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

You have to first prove the argument that violent acts are MORE COMMON in America. Something you have yet to do.

Done.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Timo 

though not as comparable in demographics.

Right see, America has TONS of large cities. Comparing percentages of city to non city doesn't take this into account.

[and get a passport -- go abroad. You might be surprised how interesting it is]

Have one, been abroad.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Done.

Whoah woah woah.

So ALL violent actions are done with a gun?

NO!

And again most of those "gun deaths" only happen in the larger cities.

I am betting if you'd separate the minority large cities with the rest of America you'd see different statistics.

MOST of America is simply not like this.

The larger more liberal cities are. Not that I blame the liberals. But SWG feels that this is caused by "backwards conservatives" Which isn't the case.

[Timo]

^^^ pretty hard to refute. I'm prepared to believe there's just as much violence in other western countries, but without as ready access to guns, their "beefs" are expressed more with fists and knives than guns.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And that is where it matters..

Not in the way you claim. No way, no how.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Timo 

^^^ pretty hard to refute. I'm prepared to believe there's just as much violence in other western countries, but without as ready access to guns, their "beefs" are expressed more with fists and knives than guns.

And we weren't just talking about gun crimes Timo. So it's simple to refute.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Timo 

Not in the way you claim. No way, no how.

Yes in the way I claim. Having the "same percentage of urban compared to non -urban" isn't the same as what I was referring to.

And no, Canada does not have the amount of large cities we do.

Which WILL and DOES bring up our numbers.

Smaller crowded areas = more violence.

When a country has tons of these areas around, their "violence" numbers will go up.

Big city America, and small town America are two different beasts. The latter makes up the greater percentage of the US. So labeling all the US this way is ignorant. And those that do that only do so because of their chips on their shoulders.

Crime is HORRIBLE in big cities. HORRIBLE. It's the reason I wont live in one.

But it is NOT the norm in the US. hardly.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Timo 

It happens everywhere, Canada too. E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_P...nique_Massacre

I flat out said TWICE it happens in Canada and other parts of the world. But thanks for finding an example from 20 years ago.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And we weren't just talking about gun crimes Timo. So it's simple to refute.

Refute all you like, Kevin, but you can't refute that putting a gun in a crime increases the chances of serious injuries or death. E.g, this 18 year old punk in Salt Lake could not have killed five people without access to guns and ammo.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

I flat out said TWICE it happens in Canada and other parts of the world. But thanks for finding an example from 20 years ago.

Yes but you belittled as if you couldn't remember when the last time such a thing happened. Which I find odd because there has been a few shootings in canada in the past year.

Maybe you aren't as Anti-Canada obsessed as you are anti-American obsessed. Which is usually the case. Those canadians I find most anti-American usually know little of what goes on in their own country.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Timo 

Refute all you like, Kevin, but you can't refute that putting a gun in a crime increases the chances of serious injuries or death.

Timo no one is arguing this. You are making this into a gun control argument. AKA you are arguing with yourself. This isn't what we are talking about.

E.g, this 18 year old punk in Salt Lake could not have killed five people without access to guns and ammo.

Not too long ago in Europe someone killed a group of people with a single knife. I believe it was even more than 5 people. So much for that.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Whoah woah woah.

So ALL violent actions are done with a gun?

NO!

Well, I thought this was about shootings, but here's a statistic about violent crimes:

[Kevin]

TETENAL please post the article that goes along with your stats.

And again, those numbers if valid still go on to prove my stance. There is no place on earth layed out like America. No place with AS MANY crowded cities.

Take away those overcrowded and not the norm of America cities and America would be down on the list.

I am ALL AGAINST over-crowded cities for this reason. ALL AGAINST. While bad things do happen in smaller towns, it's not the norm.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

I flat out said TWICE it happens in Canada and other parts of the world. But thanks for finding an example from 20 years ago.

How bout september last year?


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/...ts-dawson.html


How could you forget that one, it was plastered all over the news.

[Kevin]

There was another one as well.

That isn't counting the one they STOPPED before it happened.

[kmkkid]

Edited because the comment made no sense after the quoteds edited comment.

[Kevin]

U DID IT ALL FOR THE NOOKI.. er wait.

I do say this, the US's police forces could learn a thing or two from other countries who take more pride in their forces.

Some of the men we have as police officers would be LAUGHED at in other countries for even applying.

If you are on the "beat" and can't run two blocks without passing out you don't need to be on the police force.