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World scientists unite to attack creationism
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Landos Mustache
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Jun 22, 2006, 09:12 AM
 
"The world's scientific community united yesterday to launch one of the strongest attacks yet on creationism, warning that the origins of life were being "concealed, denied or confused".

The national science academies of 67 countries warned parents and teachers to ensure that they did not undermine the teaching of evolution or allow children to be taught that the world was created in six days."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle1094699.ece

Personally I went to a public grade school. Even though they did that morning prayer crap they never taught that the world was created in 6 days. I guess because it would conflict with science class later in the day.

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Jun 22, 2006, 10:11 AM
 
I, also, went to public school. He had the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. The Pledge is kind of repetitive, but I didn't really mind the moment of silence. It did take up a few seconds of class time.
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Jun 22, 2006, 10:19 AM
 
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 10:58 AM
 
Not sure which schools they're talking about. I don't know of any public schools that teach strict creationism (6 day). For that matter, I don't know of any private schools that do that either, though I'm sure many exist (but the little demostration would zero impact on those folks). Looks like the scientists just wanted to get a little press and get their names in a news article. Maybe it's time for their grants to be renewed and they need more stuff on their resumes?
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:13 AM
 
I went to a public school. We said the pledge in elementary school, but not after I moved in 5th grade. I was taught evolution as pure fact in biology in high school. There was no mention whatsoever that it's a theory and not every aspect of it is currently explained.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I was taught evolution as pure fact in biology in high school. There was no mention whatsoever that it's a theory...
...because it's a proven theory.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:35 AM
 
I find it ridiculous that schools teach the world is only a few thousand years old, god made it in 6 days and then they take the kids on a field trip to look at Dinosaur bones.

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Gossamer
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
...because it's a proven theory.
I hope that was sarcasm...

proven: demonstrate by evidence or argument to be
theory: a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained

If it was so 'proven' it would be the Law of Evolution.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I hope that was sarcasm...

proven: demonstrate by evidence or argument to be
theory: a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained

If it was so 'proven' it would be the Law of Evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...ionary_biology

In the resulting controversy, publicity is given to creationist arguments against evolution and natural selection, which generally involve misunderstandings or misconceptions about evolution or about science in general.

That's you, kid.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
theory: a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained
Although I agree that evolution is not proven, the word "theory" has a different meaning in the scientific community than it does in everyday conversation. When one speaks of a scientific theory, that individual is talking about something that, with current understanding or technology, cannot be proven, but to which ALL current evidence points as truth. To dismiss evolution as "just a theory" is the equivalent of saying electricity is "just a theory" - no one has seen an electron, so it cannot be proven that they exist. Nevertheless, there is just as much evidence for the theory of evolution as there is for electron theory - indeed modern day molecular and cell biology CANNOT be understood without acceptance of evolution through natural selection.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by evfish84
Although I agree that evolution is not proven, the word "theory" has a different meaning in the scientific community than it does in everyday conversation. When one speaks of a scientific theory, that individual is talking about something that, with current understanding or technology, cannot be proven, but to which ALL current evidence points as truth. To dismiss evolution as "just a theory" is the equivalent of saying electricity is "just a theory" - no one has seen an electron, so it cannot be proven that they exist. Nevertheless, there is just as much evidence for the theory of evolution as there is for electron theory - indeed modern day molecular and cell biology CANNOT be understood without acceptance of evolution through natural selection.
That's very true. Atomic theory does a very good job and is very useful, but it's not quite perfect yet. I'm not completely dismissing evolution solely because it's a theory. I simply don't have enough faith to believe in it.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I simply don't have enough faith to believe in it.
Scientists don't believe in evolution because of "faith."

You harp on with all the creationist talking points like "evolution is only theory" or "evolution is based on faith," but that merely underscores your misunderstanding of science.

We all know why creationists dispute the theory of evolution: it contradicts the Bible. Mentality of creationist: "Bible says Earth created in 6 days, ergo evolution is false." Everything else is pointless window-dressing.

In other words: creationists are making a nuisance of themselves because of their irrational belief system.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
We all know why creationists dispute the theory of evolution: it contradicts the Bible. Mentality of creationist: "Bible says Earth created in 6 days, ergo evolution is false." Everything else is pointless window-dressing.
No, it doesn't contradict, if you understood certain aspects of the Bible you'd know this. However, you fall into the same trap as the hardcore Fundamentalist types, believing that it was written 100% Pshat (meaning "taken literally"). People on both sides of the fence need to take a few Theology courses.
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Jun 22, 2006, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
In other words: creationists are making a nuisance of themselves because of their irrational belief system.
Glad to see you're the sole decider of what's rational. I'd accuse you of being cash but you're still being slightly coherent.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 12:54 PM
 
I added a video to YouTube from The Colbert Report about "intelligent design." Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4DJznVkFfU

By the way, MacNStein, I took many theology courses. I am criticizing creationism and fundamentalism - same as you.

Yes, it does contradict the text as written. Perhaps the text does mean something else, but I can't compare all the possible interpretations of the Bible.

Regardless, you are engaging in a little "conversational terrorism" with your statement "if you understood certain aspects of the Bible you'd know this." That phony tactic is called "right by association." See: http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
Glad to see you're the sole decider of what's rational.
At your service!
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:04 PM
 
I love the bit in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4DJznVkFfU when Prof. Miller suggested that those who don't accept the theory of evolution could be denied a flu shot during a shortage. It seems something like that happened recently:

http://www.gawker.com/news/christian...les-182021.php

A bit of random news from Boston: a rare case of measles was found in the Back Bay area, and an employee of the Christian Science Church was found to be exposed or infected. The Boston Public Health Commission is now asking every member of the church for proof of immunization, but, you know, Christian Scientists don’t really “do” doctors or vaccines.

Over at the otherwise lovely Christian Science Monitor, the majority of the staff hasn’t been vaccinated — and if just one staffer becomes infected, the rest of the non-immunized staff would have to be quarantined. This has editors rather concerned, as a quarantine situation would leave the paper to be run by a small handful of non-Scientist staffers and interns.

In order to prevent a journalistic catastrophe, CSM staffers have very grudgingly started to get immunizations, even though they believe that the measles threat is “not true.” Nevertheless, the Public Health threat still stands, and if one staff member gets sick, the quarantine will go into effect. For properly vaccinated editorial assistants, it could be quite the opportunity.
Of course, this is the opposite situation, but still a hilarious (and justly deserved) example of irrational beliefs coming home to roost.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:23 PM
 
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
I added a video to YouTube from The Colbert Report about "intelligent design." Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4DJznVkFfU

By the way, MacNStein, I took many theology courses. I am criticizing creationism and fundamentalism - same as you.

Yes, it does contradict the text as written. Perhaps the text does mean something else, but I can't compare all the possible interpretations of the Bible.

Regardless, you are engaging in a little "conversational terrorism" with your statement "if you understood certain aspects of the Bible you'd know this." That phony tactic is called "right by association." See: http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html
No, I'm playing the tactic "you're as much of a boob as the nutters you're bitching about". Learn the subject, learn2Talmud.
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
I love the bit in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4DJznVkFfU when Prof. Miller suggested that those who don't accept the theory of evolution could be denied a flu shot during a shortage.
Ugg...I hated that part. Of COURSE natural selection happens. Certain viruses have a mutation that makes them immune to certain antibiotics, so they are the ones that survive. I don't see them growing eyes, limbs, etc. It still the same species. That's such a terrible argument.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, I'm playing the tactic "you're as much of a boob as the nutters you're bitching about". Learn the subject, learn2Talmud.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I don't see them growing eyes, limbs, etc.
And you won't. Growing eyes, limbs, etc takes millions of years.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I hope that was sarcasm...

proven: demonstrate by evidence or argument to be
theory: a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained

If it was so 'proven' it would be the Law of Evolution.
No. It wouldn't. Theory to scientists is law to laymen. There are no laws in science today, although for historical reasons some theories are called laws.

The theory of relativity is for instance a law. *It is*. Had it been discovered 200 years before it would have been called the law of relativity. Same with evolution.

What you call theory, scientists call hypothesis.

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Jun 22, 2006, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo
No. It wouldn't. Theory to scientists is law to laymen. There are no laws in science today, although for historical reasons some theories are called laws.

The theory of relativity is for instance a law. *It is*. Had it been discovered 200 years before it would have been called the law of relativity. Same with evolution.

What you call theory, scientists call hypothesis.

V
already addressed this.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
Hey, you're the dumbass who brought it up, at the very least you should learn a little about the subject you're bashing.
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo
No. It wouldn't. Theory to scientists is law to laymen. There are no laws in science today, although for historical reasons some theories are called laws.
The Laws of Conservation.
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:03 PM
 
MacNStein, you've called me a dumbass and a boob for no reason. Before you continue with your pointless tirade of unnecessary insults, maybe you should....

( Last edited by lpkmckenna; Jun 22, 2006 at 02:11 PM. )
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:05 PM
 
...post a dead image link?
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:10 PM
 
opps. worked before. (fixed with different pic.)
     
Shaddim
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
MacNStein, you've called me a dumbass and a boob for no reason. Before you continue with your pointless tirade of unnecessary insults, maybe you should....

That's fitting, your type is always the first to tell someone to be silent when you don't like what's being said. Very typical and something I've come to expect. Thanks for not letting me down.
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
That's fitting, your type is always the first to tell someone to be silent when you don't like what's being said. Very typical and something I've come to expect. Thanks for not letting me down.
It's not what you said that led me to tell you to shut up, it was your pointless name calling.

Obviously, even with all your "theology training," you are incapable of knowing the difference. I guess those courses taught you everything except how to be polite.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
It's not what you said that led me to tell you to shut up, it was your pointless name calling.

Obviously, even with all your "theology training," you are incapable of knowing the difference. I guess those courses taught you everything except how to be polite.
He must have missed the 'theology of politeness' day.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
already addressed this.
No, not really. Theories are proven to work as they are put forward. Nothing wrong with them.

There is no theory that is pretty much ok, but some points need to be adressed so it works. No.

No theory like that. Only if the hypothesis is 100% fulfilled then it becomes a theory. A law.

V
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:46 PM
 
I think we are currently running a digg.com to MacNN delay of only a day now.

Also, the ratio of Digg.com to MacNN lounge thread is currently running close to 95%.

It's worse than spreading it in email with a subject line of "FWD: ...".
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:50 PM
 
Do I need to try and make this thread about Jolene Blalock, too?
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
It's not what you said that led me to tell you to shut up, it was your pointless name calling.

Obviously, even with all your "theology training," you are incapable of knowing the difference. I guess those courses taught you everything except how to be polite.
I'll start when you start treating the Theists on MacNN with respect, and stop treating them as if they're delusional and irrational.

In other words: creationists are making a nuisance of themselves because of their irrational belief system.
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Jun 22, 2006, 02:55 PM
 
Please don't. Blalock is a has-been.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
He must have missed the 'theology of politeness' day.
But that's just so boring. Not to mention, it doesn't work very well on MacNN, I tried it for a while and then finally just gave up.
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
I'll start when you start treating the Theists on MacNN with respect, and stop treating them as if they're delusional and irrational.
I've never suggested they're delusional. I don't engage in psychologizing.

Calling religion irrational is simply stating fact. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrationality

Included are 1) belief in logical fallacies and 2) belief in the supernatural without evidence.

For the most part, I generally avoid religious people. But when they demand equal time for ID junk science in classrooms, or condemn gays, or picket health clinics: I get my back up. I have zero patience for agenda-driven zealots.

To make it clear: I don't mind religious people, but I dislike zealots immensely.

BTW, I treat everyone with respect, starting by avoiding name-calling. Having you criticize me for lacking respect is a sick joke.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
BTW, I treat everyone with respect, starting by avoiding name-calling. Having you criticize me for lacking respect is a sick joke.
Riiiiight... Doesn't matter how many times you've changed your name, you've always been obnoxious and disrespectful of the religious.
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Riiiiight... Doesn't matter how many times you've changed your name, you've always been obnoxious and disrespectful of the religious.
So we're assuming this is cash? Sounds like him.

1) belief in logical fallacies and 2) belief in the supernatural without evidence
Ah, so we can't believe in supernatural forces or logical fallacies (your words, not mine), but you can believe that at some point in time, nothing existed, then suddenly it did, and over a huge period of time an order emerged from that chaos that turned into complex beings. That's totally logical.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
So we're assuming this is cash? Sounds like him.
I have no idea who "cash" is. I've never used another name here. I've been here for 2 years with this name.

Originally Posted by MacNStein
Riiiiight... Doesn't matter how many times you've changed your name, you've always been obnoxious and disrespectful of the religious.
Are you joking? Do you remember suggesting that "hardcore Fundamentalists" are "nutters?" Scroll up. I'll wait.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
Ah, so we can't believe in supernatural forces or logical fallacies (your words, not mine), but you can believe that at some point in time, nothing existed, then suddenly it did, and over a huge period of time an order emerged from that chaos that turned into complex beings. That's totally logical.
So you have an axe to grind over evolution AND astrophysics? Do you have a long list of sciences you want expunged from the classroom? (Sex-Ed, probably.)

Maybe you can hook up with the Christian Scientists and go on a crusade against medicine, too. Or team up with the Scientologists and put a stop to the evil psychiatrists in our midsts. If you like going door-to-door, maybe the JWs are up your alley, and you can help end the godless blood transfusion industry.

I don't know what's wrong with you, Gossamer. Go watch Ken Miller on the YouTude video I posted. I like that guy: he's smart, educated, funny, and he doesn't think the guy he listens to at the pulpit on Sunday knows everything. He's clearly a religious guy, just not a zealot.

I have no beef with believers like Miller. I have much beef with fanatics with no understanding of science, who spread disinformation and restrain human understanding of the universe.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
Are you joking? Do you remember suggesting that "hardcore Fundamentalists" are "nutters?" Scroll up. I'll wait.
No, I was referencing the way you treat them and anyone of faith, notice the quotation marks? Your track record with such people is poor, at best.
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Jun 22, 2006, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
I find it ridiculous that schools teach the world is only a few thousand years old, god made it in 6 days and then they take the kids on a field trip to look at Dinosaur bones.
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense when you've been told otherwise before?

I can only think it's because of hate.

You have a lot of pent up anger inside you.

I suggest you go get some help.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, I was referencing the way you treat them and anyone of faith, notice the quotation marks? Your track record with such people is poor, at best.
Anyone of faith? How dishonest of you. Didn't you see me complement Ken Miller?

I don't attack "anyone of faith" at all, only zealots like Gossamer. And it's not a personal attack, it's a criticism of ideas.

As for my track record: I put zealots in their place. I let them know: this is a secular society, and I won't let them screw it up without a fight.

Show up in the political or scientific arena with a religious agenda, and I'll be there to defend secularism. Game on...
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
How dishonest of you
Copycat.
     
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Jun 22, 2006, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
I have zero patience for agenda-driven zealots.
Oh... the irony.
     
Kevin
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Jun 22, 2006, 05:33 PM
 
     
besson3c
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Jun 22, 2006, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna
I added a video to YouTube from The Colbert Report about "intelligent design." Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4DJznVkFfU

By the way, MacNStein, I took many theology courses. I am criticizing creationism and fundamentalism - same as you.

Yes, it does contradict the text as written. Perhaps the text does mean something else, but I can't compare all the possible interpretations of the Bible.

Regardless, you are engaging in a little "conversational terrorism" with your statement "if you understood certain aspects of the Bible you'd know this." That phony tactic is called "right by association." See: http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html

The Colbert Report interview is very good... I don't think the viewpoints of this guy would really grate on too many Christians, and I agree that it is a shame that at some point, somebody or some thing decided to position creation and evolution as being in opposition with each other.
     
 
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