[snackhound]

It seems Mr Jobs has assumed that firewire is only used by people with camcorders, i use firewire for all my external storage and pro audio equipment, Now I am being forced to by a MBP instead of MB. It makes no sense.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html

Snax

[ctt1wbw]

Steve Jobs got a gun to your head or sumpin?

[ctt1wbw]

Oh, and anyone know how that floppy drive petition is going against Apple? I still use floppies for all my Photoshop work and office powerpoints and stuff.

[Maflynn]

Based on the tear down pictures, the fact that current cameras use usb over fw, I don't see any hope in getting FW back in the MacBook. The tear down pictures clearly show that there's absolutely no room based on the current design to fit it in there. Unless they're going to go through another expensive case resdesign to make room, its not going to happen, as it makes little economic sense. Add on that fact is that many video cameras have usb interfaces.

I'm not saying professionals won't need FW, but apple has the MBP for those folks. Also you'll need to factor in the extremely low success rate of online petitions - you have a snowball's chance of seeing a change of heart at Apple

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

the fact that current cameras use usb over fw

That is not really correct. Many current camcorders must use FW to transfer video, despite what Jobs or some misinformed posters here would have you believe. Even though pretty much all camcorders have USB now, for many of them the USB is used strictly for still images, etc. For actual video, some (particularly the ones that use DV) need FW.

The tear down pictures clearly show that there's absolutely no room based on the current design to fit it in there.

No. What the tear down pictures show is that the design was developed without FW in mind. If they wanted FW, it'd be there.

I don't see any hope in getting FW back in the MacBook.

I agree.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by snackhound 

...i use firewire for all my external storage and pro audio equipment, Now I am being forced to by a MBP instead of MB. ...

I doubt that they'll do anything. It would just blur the differences yet again. IMO, I think apple should have kept the two lines actually more different from each other to differentiate them. Features like the metal case, LED lighting, keyboard lighting, close enough processors should be different. I/O like firewire/ports should be the same. When they're close enough like they are now except for a few small things like size and speed bump, people really do start complaining about the lack of a relatively cheap port on the side.

Especially when people start saying things like firewire is fro pro users so get a MBP. Because then it doesn't make too much sense with the other MBP->MB features that trickled down.

[Cold Warrior]

I think in a year we'll see all consumer camcorders use SSD and USB2 with smart controllers that will manage the transfer throughput so that it's compatible with USB2 bottlenecks. Apple has tended to lean forward, like when it dumped the floppy maybe a year before flash drives became ubiquitous. This inconveniences a segment of the market with camcorders now and in the short term, but the camcorder natural replacement cycle (or otherwise forced obsolescence) will make Firewire on the MacBook a nearly-mute point.

It'd be much less of an issue if Apple gave us some kind of Ethernet disk mode ala NAS.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

It'd be much less of an issue if Apple gave us some kind of Ethernet disk mode ala NAS.

I'd like to see USB target mode.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd like to see USB target mode.

[jamil5454]

Originally Posted by snackhound 

It seems Mr Jobs has assumed that firewire is only used by people with camcorders, i use firewire for all my external storage and pro audio equipment, Now I am being forced to by a MBP instead of MB. It makes no sense.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html

Snax

Apple's changed nothing about the existence of Firewire on your current machine, so if all your stuff was working before the new MacBook release there's no reason it shouldn't continue working.

Claiming that Apple is "forcing" you to buy a MBP for the Firewire port is a little absurd.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd like to see USB target mode.

That'd be nice also. From a total bandwidth perspective though, Gb beats USB2. However, any solution would be welcome at this point.

Anyone know if USB2 TDM or Ethernet TDM would be difficult to implement?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

That'd be nice also. From a total bandwidth perspective though, Gb beats USB2. However, any solution would be welcome at this point.

Anyone know if USB2 TDM or Ethernet TDM would be difficult to implement?

The gurus seem to think it'd be quite difficult to implement, which might suggest to me that even if they could get it working, it might only work with future Macs, and not existing ones.

Furthermore, the mere fact that the MacBook Air does not have it, suggests to me that even if it could be done, Apple doesn't care enough to try to implement it. The Air is the "pro" lightweight machine, but Apple doesn't think that even that high-priced pro machine deserves the FireWire.

There is the one final possibility of FireWire over Ethernet. I don't know much about it, but there is a spec that allows certain chipsets to use Ethernet to function as FireWire. ie. All you'd need is a FireWire dongle to plugs into your Ethernet port to make it work. However, my understanding is that there are no chipsets in existence that support this. This idea is essentially vapourware at the moment.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Apple has slowly been axing firewire for the past 5 years even though they invented it. If even the iPods didn't help push the format than nothing will.

It is gone and it isn't coming back and everyone has to come to terms with that despite if you have a camera that uses firewire.

If you want firewire you're just going to have to get a Pro or an older model MacBook. All the protests and petitions aren't going to help.

[fisherKing]

seriously, i give up. i know apple is not going to respond to a petition, and then what? recall all the new 'books, and add a firewire port?
or redesign based on a petition?

i want a small, light laptop to use with an audio interface...i need firewire. am over apple, will not buy another mac until apple starts to respect it's customers again...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

i want a small, light laptop to use with an audio interface...i need firewire. am over apple, will not buy another mac until apple starts to respect it's customers again...

If that means you don't want to spring $400 more for the pro to do your pro audio work than you might as well run out and buy a PC now and get the respect you deserve from Dell and Microsoft.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

If that means you don't want to spring $400 more for the pro to do your pro audio work than you might as well run out and buy a PC now and get the respect you deserve from Dell and Microsoft.

i'm asking for a CHOICE: i want small & light (my 12" powerbook was ideal in it's time); it's not the $400, it's that a 13" macbook is more suited to my needs in terms of SIZE; and apple has cut out CHOICE with it's decision to leave firewire off the new books...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

i'm asking for a CHOICE: i want small & light (my 12" powerbook was ideal in it's time); it's not the $400, it's that a 13" macbook is more suited to my needs in terms of SIZE; and apple has cut out CHOICE with it's decision to leave firewire off the new books...

Yep and it is not coming back so you have to decide what you are going to do about that.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Yep and it is not coming back so you have to decide what you are going to do about that.

why the argument? i KNOW it's not coming back, but, like a lot of other macusers, am venting and/or discussing the issue; isn't that one of the points of having these forums??

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

If that means you don't want to spring $400 more for the pro

The new MacBooks must not be very good at math either, considering that $1999 - $1299 is not $400...

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd like to see USB target mode.

It seems do-able with the USB OTG supplement.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mduell 

It seems do-able with the USB OTG supplement.

Hasn't USB on the go been around for like forever? Nonetheless, the MacBook Air still doesn't support USB target mode.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hasn't USB on the go been around for like forever? Nonetheless, the MacBook Air still doesn't support USB target mode.

It's about 2 years old, IIRC.

None of Apple's computers support USB target disk mode. I don't know if the USB chipsets in them support OTG. If they do, then Apple could add a USB target disk mode in the future.

[lpkmckenna]

To all the scoffers, I don't think it's impossible that Apple could change it's mind about FW400 on the MacBook. Apple dropped audio-in from the iBook and iMac, and later realized how stupid that was and put it back. Apple dropped FW800 from the first version of the 15" MB (even though the 15" PowerBook did have FW800), and later realized how stupid that was and put it back. Apple could change it's mind with FW400.

I don't think they will, however. More likely, they will resell a miniFW-to-USB2 adaptor and provide drivers for it. That way DV camera owners won't be utterly screwed.

Apple isn't going to create Target Disk mode over USB2. There's little point, given how easy it is to pull out the hard drive.

Frankly, I'm more unhappy that there's no way to connect the new MacBooks to a standard def television, since mini Display Port adaptors for composite or component video don't even exist.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

To all the scoffers, I don't think it's impossible that Apple could change it's mind about FW400 on the MacBook. Apple dropped audio-in from the iBook and iMac, and later realized how stupid that was and put it back. Apple dropped FW800 from the first version of the 15" MB (even though the 15" PowerBook did have FW800), and later realized how stupid that was and put it back. Apple could change it's mind with FW400.

Yes, and they also added FW800 to the iMac, which had previously been FW400-only, and USB-only before that.

Apple isn't going to create Target Disk mode over USB2. There's little point, given how easy it is to pull out the hard drive.

As has already been mentioned, it would be useful for troubleshooting a machine such as an iMac which didn't have a user-accessible drive.

And really, as easy as it is to pull a drive out of a MacBook and put it in an enclosure, running a simple cable is easier still.

[Eug]

There is a difference though.

The MacBook has become Apple's computer to the masses.

The 24" iMac has OTOH become a prosumer Mac.

Even though I don't like it, in that context the dropping of FireWire from the MacBook makes sense, as does the adding of FireWire 800 to the iMac. The one place where that reasoning falls down is price. The MacBook is priced higher IMO than a FireWire-less Mac should be.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Even though I don't like it, in that context the dropping of FireWire from the MacBook makes sense, as does the adding of FireWire 800 to the iMac. The one place where that reasoning falls down is price. The MacBook is priced higher IMO than a FireWire-less Mac should be.

True. However, it is also engineered *far* more expensively than a basic consumer machine should be (vis: the plastic MacBooks).

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The MacBook is priced higher IMO than a FireWire-less Mac should be.

Indeed. For a machine with no expansion slot and no FireWire, I'd probably be willing to pay about $500, tops.

Originally Posted by analogika 

True. However, it is also engineered *far* more expensively than a basic consumer machine should be (vis: the plastic MacBooks).

Also true - this new MacBook actually reminds me of the iMac G4. Beautiful design, but not cheap, and not likely to be seen as a basic consumer machine by the masses (possibly requiring the introduction of a new low end laptop - think eMac).

Another thing to point out is that the rumor sites have been predicting the death of the Mac mini line for quite some time now - if this happens, the iMac will once again be the basic consumer model - and it has FW800.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Also true - this new MacBook actually reminds me of the iMac G4. Beautiful design, but not cheap, and not likely to be seen as a basic consumer machine by the masses (possibly requiring the introduction of a new low end laptop - think eMac).

I think the new MacBooks will sell like mad. Switchers are the least likely to own FW devices, and the most likely to love this product.

Another thing to point out is that the rumor sites have been predicting the death of the Mac mini line for quite some time now - if this happens, the iMac will once again be the basic consumer model - and it has FW800.

I don't think Apple will kill the Mac mini. They will move to the 9400M and miniDisplay Port and dump FireWire. They will sell too. That would be an awesome machine for the living room.

I think the iMac line might broaden a bit: the low end with no FW at all and no dedicated graphics chip but only the 9400M, and the high end with FW800 and a strong dedicated graphics chip.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I think the new MacBooks will sell like mad. Switchers are the least likely to own FW devices, and the most likely to love this product.

I dunno, I've met plenty of people who thought the old MacBook was too expensive. I'm not sure how well bumping it another $200 is going to go over.

$1299 is becoming prosumer territory, and $1599 is square in the middle of it.

I don't think Apple will kill the Mac mini. They will move to the 9400M and miniDisplay Port and dump FireWire. They will sell too. That would be an awesome machine for the living room.

If the mini loses its FireWire port, it will lose its home-theatre niche, since it will no longer be able to be used as a DVR.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I dunno, I've met plenty of people who thought the old MacBook was too expensive. I'm not sure how well bumping it another $200 is going to go over.

Don't forget that they've actually DROPPED the entry price on the plastoBook. That's going to bring plenty of people into the stores on its own.

The upsell to the alu MacBook is just a matter of seeing it hands-on.

And the media attention is quite high. We had people flocking to the store on Saturday, just to see if we had them in yet.

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That is not really correct. Many current camcorders must use FW to transfer video, despite what Jobs or some misinformed posters here would have you believe. Even though pretty much all camcorders have USB now, for many of them the USB is used strictly for still images, etc. For actual video, some (particularly the ones that use DV) need FW.

Like which ones? The flash and hard drive camcorders all use USB and they also outsell tape based formats by a [b]HUGE]/b] margin in the consumer space. People love their hard drive camcorders. Tape is dying in the consumer space.

Now I want FW on the MacBook more for the hard drive speed than anything else. On this one, Jobs is right - consumers won't notice FW missing for video as their cams use USB 2.

However I wish they would have given us an ESATA port.

[P]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Anyone know if USB2 TDM or Ethernet TDM would be difficult to implement?

Everyone else has commented on USB2 TDM, but Ethernet TDM would be even better - higher speed, full duplex. It should certainly be possible: install a very basic netboot server on one mac and reboot the other holding N or whatever it is to force netbooting. The netboot image will only have to boot the machine, mount the harddrive partition and share it over TFTP, AFP, SMB or whatever. Can even encrypt the connection, if you feel like it.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by itguy05 

Now I want FW on the MacBook more for the hard drive speed than anything else. On this one, Jobs is right - consumers won't notice FW missing for video as their cams use USB 2.

Correct and the people who are doing the most complaining aren't your normal consumers but rather professionals who need FW

[kylef]

If you can't beat 'em ... join 'em. Which is true in this case. They've been built, they've been shouted at and people still buy them. This is the (start?) of the end of Firewire and it ain't coming back in the MacBook line. The use of firewire is for professional activities. If you are video editing etc then you should already know that a 13.3" isn't ideal, and strong graphics are a must - hence the MacBook Pro. Only on very few occasions can an argument be justified (I don't deny it can't); and for those few thousand people - well if you pleased them you'd displease hundreds of thousands of others..

What is demanded is what is supplied ... basic law - and demand for Firewire isn't justified enough.

[camerachris]

Originally Posted by kylef 

The use of firewire is for professional activities. If you are video editing etc then you should already know that a 13.3" isn't ideal, and strong graphics are a must - hence the MacBook Pro. Only on very few occasions can an argument be justified (I don't deny it can't); and for those few thousand people - well if you pleased them you'd displease hundreds of thousands of others.

Hasn't apple been pushing iMovie and easy/home movie editing for the last 8 years or so?! Suddenly, the "consumer" laptop is not sufficient? On what planet does that logic make sense. My 12" iBook was good enough for home movies in 2001, and Apple has given us plenty of commerials and ads telling us it was the way to go too. Now suddenly the far more powerful 13" MacBook is not good enough for video editing? This line of reasoning from people here truly boggles my mind.

As as far as Pro vs consumer - give it a rest. There is almost no difference between the Macbook Pro and Macbook other than screen size (and yes, the video chip). The "Pro" designation is a marketing term. Don't tell anyone doing professional work they need to buy a large 15" laptop. A small laptop can be essential for field work. Its irrelevant if the Pro is more expensive or more capable if its not easy carried along! Many people are not avoiding the Pro because of $$

I've written Apple and I've seen more outpouring of anger on these forums than for any Apple misstep in the past... and I think its great. I bet Apple does backtrack, possible creates a 13" Pro model (admittiedly unlikely), but possibly creating a separate model with firewire (just like they have 13" models w/ and w/ o backlight). Yes, they will need to respin the board with a new chip. Big deal... these things have at least 6 layers to route everything around. The technical aspects are not a big deal...

Is this over? No!

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Keeping fighting this, and ignore the brain dead lemmings that not only fall in line with the wrong reasoning of Steve, but insist on arguing the point for no apparent reason (hint - if you don't want to hear or read about all this firewire stuff, why are you reading these threads?)

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by camerachris 

I've written Apple and I've seen more outpouring of anger on these forums than for any Apple misstep in the past... and I think its great. I bet Apple does backtrack, possible creates a 13" Pro model (admittiedly unlikely), but possibly creating a separate model with firewire (just like they have 13" models w/ and w/ o backlight). Yes, they will need to respin the board with a new chip. Big deal... these things have at least 6 layers to route everything around. The technical aspects are not a big deal...

Oh please, Every time Apple releases a new machine, people whine about the defects. Just do a search on the MacBook Air if you want. I've been to two apple stores as I contemplate/research my purchase and each time, the MBs and MBPs are flying out of the store.

I can also tell you the average consumer (buying MB and MBP) doesn't have a clue about FW because I see their glazed looks when the salesmen talk about it. I also support computer desktops in my company and the average user doesn't care about FW vs. USB.

Apple will only change its course if people stop buying the machines and from my unscientific perspective that's not happening.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by camerachris 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

The Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor...

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor...

It was a joke from animal house

[kylef]

Don't get me wrong - I would have loved to have seen a 13" MBP (I would have bought one) - but, call me pessimistic, I just don't see it happening.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by camerachris 

Hasn't apple been pushing iMovie and easy/home movie editing for the last 8 years or so?! Suddenly, the "consumer" laptop is not sufficient?

The new MacBook is sufficient for iMovie import and easy/home movie editing.

The easy/home video market has moved/is moving on to USB, and Firewire is being left behind.

[camerachris]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Oh please, Every time Apple releases a new machine, people whine about the defects. Just do a search on the MacBook Air if you want. I've been to two apple stores as I contemplate/research my purchase and each time, the MBs and MBPs are flying out of the store.

I can also tell you the average consumer (buying MB and MBP) doesn't have a clue about FW because I see their glazed looks when the salesmen talk about it. I also support computer desktops in my company and the average user doesn't care about FW vs. USB.

Apple will only change its course if people stop buying the machines and from my unscientific perspective that's not happening.

I know its true that mac enthusiasts on these forums do make noise with every release, but this seems more widespread to me. Even to the extent of a reply from Steve himself (if it was in fact a real reply). Every mac site has an article, not to mention the audio and general tech sites like slashdot, etc. about the change.

Perhaps its just blind-eyed, naive wishful thinking on my part, but it does feel different.

I'm just bummed because I've been waiting since June to replace my MacBook. Its still fine, but i'm handing it down to my mom (and helping my justify a new purchase). But I just can't buy the new 13" without firewire and do not want the larger 15".. Why won't Steve think of my mom?!
:

[Maflynn]

Don't get me wrong, I wish apple kept the FW on the MacBook, and I do think its a mistake but given the target market segment that apple marketing the MB to, and given that in the consumer arena FW is all but dead. I don't see apple making any changes in the future regarding FW. If people weren't buying the MB because of the FW issue, I'd say the odds would be better but as it stands, they seem to be selling.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The MacBook is priced higher IMO than a FireWire-less Mac should be.

I think the FireWire-free Macs are FireWire-free more for product differentiation and space than cost.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

If the mini loses its FireWire port, it will lose its home-theatre niche, since it will no longer be able to be used as a DVR.

??? All the tuners from Miglia and El Gato are USB only.

[fisherKing]

audio people (ie interfaces like the apple-recommended and designed-for-logic Apogee Duet); people with firewire drives (my ex has her black macbook hooked up to 5 firewire drives). PLUS those with FW cams...

what if these people cannot afford a macbook pro? how many people want to replace their FW peripherals to accommodate apple's decision? apple is screwing a LOT of their consumers.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by mduell 

??? All the tuners from Miglia and El Gato are USB only.

All the set-top cable boxes I've seen have had FireWire for digital output and not USB.

Sometimes they have a useless USB port that doesn't do anything, of course.

Basically what this means is that the usefulness of a machine without FireWire (nor any way to add it) as a home theater hub is severely limited, and since that is one of the Mac mini's big niches, it would make zero sense to remove FireWire from the mini.

Which, of course, means that Apple's almost guaranteed to do it.

[P]

Digital set-top boxes distributed by US cable companies must have a Firewire port, according to FCC regulations. I have posted the link to that before, search the forums if you don't believe me.

[mduell]

Do the cable company boxes with Firewire support command/control over FW or just video data? Do you need an IR blaster or something else to command/control them?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

audio people (ie interfaces like the apple-recommended and designed-for-logic Apogee Duet); people with firewire drives (my ex has her black macbook hooked up to 5 firewire drives). PLUS those with FW cams...

what if these people cannot afford a macbook pro? how many people want to replace their FW peripherals to accommodate apple's decision? apple is screwing a LOT of their consumers.

Well, I realize that there are exceptions to this, but let's see:

audio people on a budget: USB interfaces are generally cheaper than Firewire interfaces (the "pro" stuff is exclusively Firewire/ExpressCard, of course, but "pro" usually means "tax deductible" and planned budgets, and working with what gets the job done, even if it's a four-year-old MacBook until the budget is accumulated for a new purchase).

people with Firewire drives: You can get 500GB USB 2.0 externals for under $100. USB drives have been cheaper than Firewire for a while.

Basically, I'm saying that heavy users of Firewire are probably on budgets that work very differently from just "not being able to afford" a MacBook Pro over an alu MacBook, while people on an extremely tight budget probably won't be heavy users of Firewire stuff, anyway.

And for all the exceptions to that generalization (and I realize there's gonna be a lot of those), it's nice to know that the cheapest laptop Apple makes still comes with Firewire (for a while, at least).

[P]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Do the cable company boxes with Firewire support command/control over FW or just video data? Do you need an IR blaster or something else to command/control them?

They support command/control. There is an app in the Firewire SDK (AVCVideoCap.app) that let's you grab the right file, and you can then use an app like VLC to view them while they are being streamed. They're not meant to be used by a computer, but by a digital video player, but the app above let's you emulate one.

I've heard that this doesn't work reliably with certain cable operators, but I've never tried it myself, so I don't know.

[Eug]

I have pulled a couple of HD shows off my PVR using FireWire, and converted them to H.264. I stopped doing it though, because it was such a PITA using those freeware applications to do this. (Sync issues, etc.)

Ironically, this FireWire support isn't even required in Canada. However, the PVR is the same one as sold in the US, and I guess they didn't bother deactivating the ports for Canada.

Annoyingly, you can't add external drives to my PVR with FireWire. You have to use eSATA. It would have been a great way to make use of some of my USB-less FireWire drives, but no such luck.