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GM + Ford merger in talks
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Kerrigan
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Sep 18, 2006, 10:14 PM
 
Report of GM-Ford merger talks sign of times, analysts say - 09/18/06 - The Detroit News Online

Queue the usual bickering that comes with discussions about GM

BTW wasn't GM supposed to be merging with Nissan?
     
Gossamer
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Sep 18, 2006, 10:23 PM
 
They said more lower-level cooperation is much more likely than an outright merger...that's not going to happen. They're already working together on hybrid stuff and making a 6-speed automatic tranny, so they're most likely looking at more stuff like this.
     
Kerrigan  (op)
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Sep 18, 2006, 10:35 PM
 
Haha you said tranny. Luckily we are in a grace period where no threads are at risk of 'homosexual derailment' (to coin a phrase).

Anyways, you think this will be like the mythical Apple Google merger? The press is just making mountains out of molehills?
     
rickey939
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Sep 18, 2006, 11:18 PM
 
I'd be very surprised if this goes through.
     
SSharon
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Sep 18, 2006, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan
'sexual derailment'
sounds painful.
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Railroader
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Sep 18, 2006, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
They said more lower-level cooperation is much more likely than an outright merger...that's not going to happen. They're already working together on hybrid stuff and making a 6-speed automatic tranny, so they're most likely looking at more stuff like this.
What he said.
Originally Posted by Kerrigan
Queue the usual bickering that comes with discussions about GM
ca$h is still banned isn't he? /SARCASM]








(Tooki, please don't ban me for "baiting" Rob again!!!)
     
mitchell_pgh
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Sep 18, 2006, 11:35 PM
 
Remember the thread a few weeks back about Apple having 9 billion in cash and short term investments. Many there said that Apple should give some back... That's exactly what Ford did... and they could really use that money now.
     
SSharon
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Sep 18, 2006, 11:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh
Remember the thread a few weeks back about Apple having 9 billion in cash and short term investments. Many there said that Apple should give some back... That's exactly what Ford did... and they could really use that money now.
Or they could make some noncrappy cars for once.
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ghporter
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Sep 19, 2006, 08:21 AM
 
I just don't see this happening. I might believe some "lower level cooperation" on the order of more SAE-type standardization. I don't see Ford giving up 9/16 fasteners, or GM adopting them, but getting to the point where there are fewer alternators and radiators to design and build would help everyone.

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Adam Betts
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Sep 19, 2006, 09:12 AM
 
GM + Ford
"We are BUILT TOUGH grade"
     
chestercopperpot
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
What he said.

ca$h is still banned isn't he? /SARCASM]
Sorta. I'm just busy @ school now so I don't post much. Sorry to dissapoint.
     
chestercopperpot
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:13 AM
 
GM merging with ANY company would likely be an improvement (from GM's view anyway)
     
NYCFarmboy
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:16 AM
 
two bloated dead companies combining to form a bigger bloated dead company? awful idea...will end up being the Penn Central of the auto biz.

what should happen is that GM & Ford should split up into about 10 smaller efficient companies.
     
turtle777
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:17 AM
 
Ain't gonna happen.

They would have a monopoly - on shitty cars

-t
     
Dork.
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh
Remember the thread a few weeks back about Apple having 9 billion in cash and short term investments. Many there said that Apple should give some back... That's exactly what Ford did... and they could really use that money now.
F: Key Statistics for FORD MOTOR CO - Yahoo! Finance

Ford has about $23B in the bank.... Which sounds good until you realize they have $150B of debt!

Ford's dividend rate is not nearly high enough to account for that gap....
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:07 AM
 
Welp, there goes any possibility of intelligent discussion on the topic. This crowd is too predictable.

(Not you dork.)
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy
what should happen is that GM & Ford should split up into about 10 smaller efficient companies.
This is an excellent idea.

But look at Visteon and Delphi. Split and bankrupt. GM should probably make PowerTrain an independent company. I think they stopped far too short when the only spun off Delphi.
     
Landos Mustache
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:18 AM
 
So what happens exactly when you combine two boring, money losing companies?

übercrap?

"Hello, what have we here?
     
Gossamer
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:20 AM
 
Didn't K-Mart and Sears do this?
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
So what happens exactly when you combine two boring, money losing companies?

übercrap?
Apple and NeXt come to mind.
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
Didn't K-Mart and Sears do this?
As well as Sprint and Nextel.

AOL and Time Warner.

Too many to count.
     
turtle777
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:29 AM
 
Apple and NeXt : were not the big players in the market, but niche players. Apple had great marketing potential, NeXt great technology. Neither GM nor Ford have neither of that.

K-Mart and Sears: not familier if it worked out. I don't think they were too successful.

Sprint and Nextel: Nextel had a unique position in a unique niche market. High margins from business customers. How can that be compared to GM or Ford ?

AOL and Time Warner: Hyped, crappy new economy meets old world economy. Total different dynamics than two old economies in a loss position like GM / Ford.

So, to sum it all up: nice apples to oranges comparison, RR.

-t
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
Apple and NeXt : were not the big players in the market, but niche players. Apple had great marketing potential, NeXt great technology. Neither GM nor Ford have neither of that.

K-Mart and Sears: not familier if it orked out. I don't think they were too successful.

Sprint and Nextel: Nextel had a unique position in a unique niche market. High margins from business customers. How can that be compared to GM or Ford ?

AOL and Time Warner: Hyped, crappy new economy meets old world economy. Total different dynamics than two old economies in a loss position like GM / Ford.

So, to sum it all up: nice apples to oranges comparison, RR.

-t
Apple was huge. Needed something to gain the edge again. NeXt was huge in the University market. Aple is making a HUGE comeback. Success.

K-Mart was huge, Sears always was. Merged, very little change other than exchanging of ideas and distribution network. Very successful. They are both still in business.

Sprint was Huge, started to flounder. Nextel was huge, started to flounder. Too new of a merger to determine success. But I see more and more new Nextels on campus.

I'll give you AOL/Time Warner.

To summ it up, GM and Ford were huge, both need something to stop the end of their respective marketshare declinations. Apples/Apples. 'Cept for that AOL thingy.
     
Gossamer
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
As well as Sprint and Nextel.

AOL and Time Warner.

Too many to count.
I said K-Mart and Sears because IIRC they were both going down at the time, so it seems to relate to this situation. It would be interesting to see if the merger has benefited them at all.
     
Railroader
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Sep 19, 2006, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I said K-Mart and Sears because IIRC they were both going down at the time, so it seems to relate to this situation. It would be interesting to see if the merger has benefited them at all.
Agreed.

EDIT: Errr, I mean it has saved both companies which is a great measure of success in my book.
     
Lateralus
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Sep 19, 2006, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
NeXt
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
NeXt
NeXT
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Kerrigan  (op)
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Sep 19, 2006, 12:08 PM
 
The secret NintOogle-Apple three-way merger has been a success.
     
Person Man
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Sep 19, 2006, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer
I said K-Mart and Sears because IIRC they were both going down at the time, so it seems to relate to this situation. It would be interesting to see if the merger has benefited them at all.
K-Mart bought Sears outright, IIRC.

As for Sprint and Nextel, after they merged to form "The new Sprint," Sprint spun off everything but it's wireless into it's own company, Embarq.

Embarq. The "Root Beer Telecommunications Company."

I used to get local phone service from Sprint. It's Embarq now.
     
Gossamer
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Sep 19, 2006, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man
K-Mart bought Sears outright, IIRC.

As for Sprint and Nextel, after they merged to form "The new Sprint," Sprint spun off everything but it's wireless into it's own company, Embarq.

Embarq. The "Root Beer Telecommunications Company."

I used to get local phone service from Sprint. It's Embarq now.
Who would have thought a failing company buying another failing company would turn out well for both of them
Originally Posted by http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/17/news/fortune500/sears_kmart/
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Kmart is buying Sears, Roebuck & Co. for $11 billion in a deal that will marry two of the nation's oldest retailers that had trouble keeping up with the changes in American culture around them.
And This article thinks they could succeed, as large-scale changes are finally being made.
     
Dork.
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
Welp, there goes any possibility of intelligent discussion on the topic. This crowd is too predictable.

(Not you dork.)
Thanks, RR. This would normally be the time in the discussion where I'd rant about how every American car I've ever owned had its' head gasket blow at around 80k miles, and but my Jetta still gets 30+ MPG at 100K miles and no major engine work. (The constant recalls for support systems have been another matter entirely....). But since you've been so nice to me, I'll refrain.
     
turtle777
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
Apple was huge.
K-Mart was huge, Sears always was.
Sprint was Huge, started to flounder.
What do you mean by huge ?

Installed customer base ?
Marketshare ?
Growth ?
Profitability ?
Innovation ?

Yor simplistic view doesn't help. My point was that you have to look at more factors than just if the company is "huge".

-t
     
sek929
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:18 PM
 
I don't see an all-out merger happening this millenia. AFAIK the only thing keeping both companies going is competetive truck sales. I doubt hardcore F-150 guys would appreciate a few GMC logos strewn about (and visa versa).

However, I think if Ford and GM merged their car lineup, got rid of 50% of models, stuck with the cars that actually get bought, and used eachothers strong points then they might actually come out with a product that could start to rival the Japanese and Koreans.
     
turtle777
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
NeXT
Originally Posted by Railroader
NeXT
Originally Posted by Lateralus
NeXT
NäCHst !

-t
     
Landos Mustache
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:22 PM
 
Quality aside... Ford makes boring cars, GM makes boring AND ugly cars. I can't understand what a merger would do except try to convince people that they are somehow going to get products that are better than they can already buy from non-US manufactures.

To relate it to the theme of this forum... why buy a Zune in 3 months when you can get an iPod today? Did Toshiba re-branding a MP3 player for Microsoft really offer that much better?

"Hello, what have we here?
     
turtle777
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:25 PM
 
Yeah, or to take it even further: what would M$ and Creative gain if they decided to merge their MP3 business ? Add together their marketshare, but that's it. I doubt it would hurt the iPod.

-t
     
King Bob On The Cob
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:36 PM
 
GM and Ford merge and do what every good company does when it merges, namely use it as an excuse to kill off/spin off anything that is not good for the core business.

It could be killer to have a Ford design team (Actually, steal the Mazda team) working on GM cars.

A Mustang with an LS2... Mmmmmm...
     
Lateralus
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
...GM makes boring AND ugly cars....
Correction; Chevy and Pontiac make boring AND ugly cars. Buick and Cadillac aren't that bad. Buick in particular seems to be headed in a good direction, especially with the coming Enclave.
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Sep 19, 2006, 01:45 PM
 
My Nissan and Infiniti wipe their butts with Fords and GMs.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Gossamer
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Sep 19, 2006, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob
GM and Ford merge and do what every good company does when it merges, namely use it as an excuse to kill off/spin off anything that is not good for the core business.

It could be killer to have a Ford design team (Actually, steal the Mazda team) working on GM cars.

A Mustang with an LS2... Mmmmmm...
LS2? Psh...I want the LS7. And some Jenny Craig. Then it would be good to go.
     
gururafiki
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Sep 19, 2006, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon
Or they could make some noncrappy cars for once.
Hey, My Model T is not crappy!
     
ghporter
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Sep 19, 2006, 03:54 PM
 
GM managed to creat Saturn, which makes some attractive, and somewhat innovative cars. Ford has simply bought a bunch of other car companies-and mongrelized some of their products so they look like U.S. Fords (can you say Jaguar?). This is not good for the company or the customers.

It's possible for any company to start thinking "new" instead of "same old same old," but it takes a huge investment in people and more importantly, in HONESTY. "Folks, we're circling the drain right now, and we all need to pull together or we're all going to be out of a job soon" just won't play to the home crowd when it's a "Ford" saying it. Even if it's 100% true.

GM needs new ideas beyond its cash-cow Cadilac and GMC divisions-both of which are already starting to stagnate. Buicks are not your dad's Buicks, but they need more spice too. And they could do better than the Malibu! HOLY CRAP! That's NOT a Malibu! Geezzzzz. Starting out, they could work on efficient, affordable cars; there are more purchasers for $15k cars than for $30k cars, and getting more GM products (that WORK) on the street can't help but help the company.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Landos Mustache
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Sep 19, 2006, 03:59 PM
 
Hey all I know about fords is that I can't fit in a ford contour (a family sedan) because me knees end up on the dash with the seats all the way back and my head touches the ceiling. Now that is brilliant engineering.

Strangely enough I fit in a Mini or VW bug no problem. Actually, I fit in just about any other car no problem.

"Hello, what have we here?
     
Gossamer
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Sep 19, 2006, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
Hey all I know about fords is that I can't fit in a ford contour (a family sedan) because me knees end up on the dash with the seats all the way back and my head touches the ceiling. Now that is brilliant engineering.
That's strange because I drive a '96 Mercury Mystique, and my sister drives a '99 Contour, and I used to have a '95 Contour. I'm 6'5" and I fit in any of the front seats (back seats are another story...).
Luckily my Mystique has a power driver's seat so I can put it all the way down and back. My head and knees fit fine, but the top of the steering wheel tends to cover the top of the speedo from my point of view, and I don't have the tilt wheel. But I fit fine in the passenger seat of any of those cars.
     
ghporter
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Sep 19, 2006, 04:10 PM
 
Ford uses different ergonomic models than BMW or VW (or just about any other car company for that matter), so it's not surprising that some people just don't fit.

I had to drive a Dodge Neon once, and it was misery because the seats didn't fit right and my head was always bumping either the headliner or the door. I'm not that tall; 6'2" isn't huge. But I fit in my Civic just fine-and so does my 5'4" tall wife, for that matter.

These things are just two examples of how otherwise functinal cars get to be labeled "crappy" by a lot of people. How can you enjoy or even tolerate being in a car if it doesn't fit you?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Y3a
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Sep 19, 2006, 04:14 PM
 
Ford + GM = Worse CRAP!!
     
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Sep 19, 2006, 05:10 PM
 
Unfortunately, to many, the brands under Ford and GM are so tainted now that there's no way these people would ever consider buying into them. I certainly don't wish either company ill will, but I got burned enough in earlier years that I don't want to ever go back to either company for a car.

The problem is that a car is a serious investment. If you get burned once or twice by a carmaker, are you really going to risk spending so much on them again, even if you hear, "oh, the quality's better now"? Top that off with the products' bland-if-not-ugly styling, and you see that both GM and Ford have an enormous problem to overcome, if they ever want to win over a larger percentage of the population.

Each company still has its own loyal fanbase, and that's good. Otherwise a lot more people would be out of work than there already are.
     
SSharon
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Sep 19, 2006, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by xi_hyperon
The problem is that a car is a serious investment.
I think a number of people here will tell you that a car is not an investment since it loses value the instant you take it off the lot.
Cars are certainly expensive, but I have a feeling that many people would sacrifice their brand loyalty for a cheaper car. Maybe not the purists here, but the public.
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xi_hyperon
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Sep 19, 2006, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon
I think a number of people here will tell you that a car is not an investment since it loses value the instant you take it off the lot.
Cars are certainly expensive, but I have a feeling that many people would sacrifice their brand loyalty for a cheaper car. Maybe not the purists here, but the public.
It is still an investment. You have paid money in return for reliable transportation at your convenience. If the transportation turns out to not be as reliable as it should be, then you've made a bad investment.
     
itschestercopperpot
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
GM managed to creat Saturn, which makes some attractive, and somewhat innovative cars.
Maybe if you live in a beige house and have a PC and do nothing exciting in your life. And you're blind.

PS: All the new saturns are goign to have metal skins and they'll be rebadged opels.
     
turtle777
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by itschestercopperpot
PS: All the new saturns are goign to have metal skins and they'll be rebadged opels.
Which is not a bad thing. Get some European design for cheap.

-t
     
 
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