[Mediaman_12]

Sun Xtreme have a look at the vid
I come across this on Ars Tec. It seams to feature a 3D implementation of the Dock as well as other ideas, and people complained that the dock was confusing.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
Sun Xtreme have a look at the vid
I come across this on Ars Tec. It seams to feature a 3D implementation of the Dock as well as other ideas, and people complained that the dock was confusing.

Downloading at 10k/sec... I think I'll end up rehosting this on my own server for you guys to check out.

edit: Here, guys.. If the main site is slow I've mirrored it here: http://thefro.homeunix.org/lgcommercial.mp4
edit 3 months later: Mirror taken down.

Wow. That is impressive technology. I wonder what kinda of hardware that's running on and how far along they are in development... it looks pretty mature.

[KidRed]

Lucky you, I'm getting 4k a sec.

Also, can we try and be more descriptive with titles next time?

[Krypton]

Hmmmmm think of Expos� in 3D - I like it!!

Not something you could do with a one button mouse though I presume

[Peter]

omg
that is impressive.

[Tetsuo]

Wow, impressive. I wonder who will release that first for mac/pc

[cpac]

lots of eye candy, not a lot of functionality improvement as far as I can see...

[RooneyX]

Impressive. Where are the Microsoft ones from 1998?

Anyway, too much complexity means you get less work done. Overdone technologies are there simply too show off the platform and get people to buy stuff they won't use much.

[andretan]

Longhorn seems outdated already!

[mchladek]

Originally posted by Krypton:
Hmmmmm think of Expos� in 3D - I like it!!

That's exactly what I was thinking. Apple seems to be doing a lot with 3D textures. This seems to be the logical evolution in Expos�.

The coolest thing about this demo I thought was the example of having stickies on the back of a browser window. I see this as the next big step in productivity. Right now everything is application based. For example, I was just working on calculating my expected grade in one of my classes and e-mail it someone. In order to do this I needed three applications: OmniWeb, Mail, & Calculator. However, I had several windows open in OmniWeb not related to this project. Every time I needed to get to the related window I would have to search the other non-related ones. A better way of handling this would be the ability to create a "grade calculation" project. This project would be represented as a cube (like Fast User Switching) and each face of the cube would have a different app's windows related to that project. I now wouldn't have to sort through the windows of non-related projects to get to the specific window I needed. I guess it's kinda like virtual desktops, but instead of being completely separate you'd have several project cubes on one desktop which would make things much quicker, IMO.

[theolein]

It seems that the rest of the IT world has finally realised that Alpha blending and 3D layering are worthy of looking at. First Microsoft with it's Avalon engine in Longhorn and now Sun with this full blown 3D environment that looks like it needs pretty heavy 3D hardware to run (I imagine they took a book from Apple and use openGL to map the bitmaps onto 3D vector planes like an advanced version of Qaurtz Extreme).

But, typically, Sun had to create something that no one in their sane mind would be able to use. Can you imagine trying to use windows that were turned upside down.

The idea is interesting but I doubt it's going to appear in any real interface for quite a while.

[Developer]

Originally posted by theolein:
First Microsoft with it's Avalon engine in Longhorn and now Sun with this full blown 3D environment that looks like it needs pretty heavy 3D hardware to run (I imagine they took a book from Apple and use openGL to map the bitmaps onto 3D vector planes like an advanced version of Qaurtz Extreme).

This looks like the 3D environment Microsoft demonstrated 10 years ago on a ATI Rage II. Nothing new here.
Kelly Hogan had a thread about it some time ago which linked to a video.

Edit:

Here's the link to the video:

http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/...lery/video.mpg

[OwlBoy]

wow.

That would be spiffy.

The Post-it� notes on the back of the browser window is a very innovative idea.

-Owl

[Mike S.]

It seems like more flash than substance to me. Having the ability to lose window in 3D space and then have to go rotating things to find them seems like a bad idea.

Using true 3D environments with 2D tools is counterintuitive. Ever see somebody try to play a 3D video game who isn't used to it? The get lost.

Imagine throwing them into a 3D window manager? It would be ugly.

I do like the overall look of the environment, however.

The 3D, floating Dock and moving desktop both provide a great feeling of depth and space that I'd like to see used daily.

Stuff like hanging windows off the side of the screen just seems like demo fodder, Expos� appears to do a fine job of allowing you to manage windows in 2D space.

Features like the 3D appearance added to Linux would really go a long way towards getting consumers interested in using it, IMO.

It's fresh and innovative thinking, nice going Sun.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Using true 3D environments with 2D tools is counterintuitive. Ever see somebody try to play a 3D video game who isn't used to it? The get lost.

I don't agree, the window manager can be 3D while the application usage is in 2D.

Humans are used to doing things in 2D and 3D at the same time.

As long as its done nicely, its a good idea.

[Don Pickett]

Good UI design minimizes confusion and maximizes usability. This seems to create as many problems as it solves.

Allows used to find windows lost in 3D space

The windows wouldn't be lost without the 3D desktop. . .

[Boondoggle]

cool demo.

questionable product.

Maybe this is why Bill Joy just quit Sun and got himself a G5.

bd

[Hop Pocket]

that was pretty impressive.. thanks for the link!

[MindFad]

I think it was impressive, but I'm not sure about functionality. I don't like that moving desktop *at all*. Nor the Windows folding off to the side like that. It was more "cool" factor than anything else. And the little Dock thing is just as irritating as OS X's Dock with the popping icons. People leave that on!? I turn the magnification off.

This is stuff Apple could pull off in OS X with no problem. Expos� is just the beginning. Windows in OS X are basically texture maps on a flat surface. Things like fast user switching are probably the beginning for the eyecandy�I bet Apple's got tons of fancy stuff planned for futures versions of OS X. 3-D models even. Where's that little program someone did of a 3-D sphere that acted as a window and bounced around your desktop? Imagine the possibilities for eyecandy iTunes controllers.

I would like that window-folding thing if I could fold windows to the side of my screen, having them turn into tabs. Likes popup windows in OS 9, but with a fancy 3-D effect, and I could manipulate the tabs however I wanted, put them wherever.

RE: 3-D Windows 2000

That was painful, man.

[ASIMO]

Certain, minor 3-d elements would be nice, but not the whole damned thing. Made my stomach uneasy watching it, actually.

To be fair, though, Windows sometimes makes my stomach uneasy but for entirely different reasons.

[osxisfun]

meanwhile... millions of OSX users are getting work done today...

gimicky stuff like microsoft demos every couple of years may gets some oooohhhs. but what apple puts in makes you more productive.

look at expose. apple did not dick around with what if videos for osx 2009. instead they spoke softly and carried a big stick.

sun and microsoft have to show gee whiz stuff to get attention.

meanwhile OSX continues to build the future one .1 upgrade at a time...

[lookmark]

Wow, fascinating demo.

Post-it messages on the backs of web sites are pretty silly (how many of those would you really need?), but the idea of windows *having* a back at all is just brilliant.

That opens up a whole a new area for UI.

It'll take some time to figure out how to use that well, but this will be the direction that the next major version of OS X goes in, I'm sure of it.

[Cadaver]

Wow. That Microsoft demo was horrible. Unbelievably complicated for what it seems to do. The Sun demo was much better, though it does seem like a hassle to rotate all my windows in 3D space - I have to hunt for something hidden (the narrator even said to rotate for hidden items). Makes me like Expos� even more!

[akuma-x]

Looking Glass will be for Linux and Solaris.
And I believe it is using Gnome as the windows manager.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
It's fresh and innovative thinking, nice going Sun.

While I agree with everything else you said, this is not fresh and innovative thinking.
Microsoft demoed something like this with their Task Gallery years ago.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
Wow. That Microsoft demo was horrible. Unbelievably complicated for what it seems to do. The Sun demo was much better, though it does seem like a hassle to rotate all my windows in 3D space - I have to hunt for something hidden (the narrator even said to rotate for hidden items). Makes me like Expos� even more!

Yeah, I wasn't too big on that rotating the environment windows bit. Do you really want to look up your window's skirt to make sure nothing's hidden? No. No, you don't. Unless it's a pr0n window maybe.

[Cipher13]

Yeah, years ago I saw something (not MS) with the whole 'notepad' on the back of the window idea, and heaps of other cool stuff.

This isn't all that innovative at all.

About all they've done is moved Expos� into the third dimension, and made the background image scroll around.

[iJed]

This seem flashy but ultimately useless to me. I really do not want to have to rotate my windows one at a time to look for some option that I wish to use. Your computer UI is inherently 2D and putting things into a 3D space is therefore simply confusing. There is simply no way that the average user could cope with this sort of window management.

As for the Microsoft demo... This looks like another one of their typical abominations. Who would actually ever use this?

[sniffer]

Looks to me like it was more a technology demonstration and perhaps not a UI solution.
Relax people.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Developer:
This looks like the 3D environment Microsoft demonstrated 10 years ago on a ATI Rage II. Nothing new here.
Kelly Hogan had a thread about it some time ago which linked to a video.

Edit:

Here's the link to the video:

http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/...lery/video.mpg

The concept looks a little messy because people thought we would move towards a full 3D environment rather than use 3D acceleration for a 2D workspace.

But for 1998 technology that video is amazing because it shows a smooth running interface without jerkiness or lack of snappiness, it shows a MIP concept (3:06), Expose (3:15), virtual desktops(2:20), texture mapped windows that respond immediately, and I just noticed when they launched Outlook they has the live icon zoom rect that Panther now has.

Wonder why MS has taken so long to implement the technology properly.

[andretan]

After seeing both Sun's Looking Glass and Microsoft's "3D Virtual gallery", I still feel that Sun's implementation is more practical than Microsoft's.

Why?
For MS's implementation, there's just too many mouse clicks just to choose one window. And you gotta go front and back and blah blah just to get some work done. I wouldn't even touch it.

Sun's implementation is good no doubt, but it isn't exactly that refined yet. Some of you may argue that the user has to rotate the windows to find those windows that are "lost" behind other windows, but isn't that similiar to what Panther's Expos� is doing? You press F9 and you still gotta find the app/window you want. Only thing is that you don't need to rotate it.

Just my humble 2 cents
I come in peace.

[dfiler]

Neat... but nearly useless for productivity.

However, I am definitely interested in the concept of windows having a flip-side. The backs of window objects are currently unused but would be easily understood and accessible as an addition to our current interaction techniques.

I would like to see the backs of windows used for something intuitive, useful, and ubiquitous. Perhaps preferences related to that window or it's location in the file system.

The rest? Well it seems like me too eye-candy. Large software houses have been demoing this type of thing for years. 3D environments and partial integration with current 2D-desktops have been floating around in academia and research labs for perhaps a decade or more. Even shareware screen savers do things similar things.

The question is, did Sun manage to do something useful with the technology? Or did they simply come up with another demo which impresses people not exposed to all the earlier fluff. Yeah, it's neat. But the next time you see it, you'll be asking 'what is good for'?

Skewed windows? Neat but counter-productive. They didn't take up a smaller rectangular region and were less legible

Upside-down windows? What the hell are they thinking? That's less than useless.

[dillerX]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Yeah, I wasn't too big on that rotating the environment windows bit. Do you really want to look up your window's skirt to make sure nothing's hidden? No. No, you don't. Unless it's a pr0n window maybe.

Think of the possibilities man. Aria!

My thoughts. Expose rocks. 3D would just make it confusing as hell. Keep it simple foo. 3 buttons, all window goodness.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by andretan:
After seeing both Sun's Looking Glass and Microsoft's "3D Virtual gallery", I still feel that Sun's implementation is more practical than Microsoft's.

Why?
For MS's implementation,

MS's isn't an implementation. It was a rough sketch up (see the low res texture maps) of how 3D acceleration could be used in the future to map window contents to shapes. That was in 98 and it hasn't been implemented at all.

[Landos Mustache]

I don't see how anything shown in that demo makes your computer faster or easier to use.

[sniffer]

BTW: Did they mention anything in the MS demo that implied that they had the actual technology for doing that stuff, or was it just an alternative UI show off demo?
Impressive if all that is possible on a simple rage ][ card.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by sniffer:
BTW: Did they mention anything in the MS demo that implied that they had the actual technology for doing that stuff, or was it just an alternative UI show off demo?
Impressive if all that is possible on a simple rage ][ card.

It's actually a Riva TNT, not sure if it's 16MB or 32MB version, but it was about the same speed as a Rage 128 at the time. Still, they made full use of the card in every way.

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by Developer:
While I agree with everything else you said, this is not fresh and innovative thinking.
Microsoft demoed something like this with their Task Gallery years ago.

I watched the 70 MB video after I posted my message and don't feel they are the same concepts. They have their similarities but they aren't the same.

Microsoft's approach appeared to be one that makes the desktop a metaphor within a metaphor.

It takes the concept of multiple desktops and throws them into some kind of horrendous 3D museum that you have to "walk around" to get to anything. This is so central to it's core that the UI had it's own set of controls for navigating the 3D space.

It also had that palette that let you group things for easier access but that seems to indicate that the core model is too convoluted and required shortcuts.

The Sun "Looking Glass" simply took the 2D desktop we know today and added 3D elements to give a feeling of space and depth and the effect was much more natural.

Stuff like hanging windows off the side at 3/4 perspectives and sticking data on the backside of windows didn't do anything for me.

I was praising the design from Sun not the functionality, that Microsoft design was god awful. It looked like a very unpolished demo where as Looking Glass looked like something I could turn on and use today.

Microsoft's idea didn't go unnoticed, I do believe there is an IE based web browser for Windows that maps web pages onto a virtual cube and lets you zoom back and forward to access more such pages.

In essence, it's that demo as a web browser. I didn't care for that when I saw it either :-)

[Landos Mustache]

3D interfaces on a 2D display are pointless.

[phillryu]

I was actually thinking of metals having brushed metal blacks and stuff, after modding this screen saver that drops snowflakes with some ichat windows hehe. That got me thinking about really 3d windows, but guys, the fact is windows are 2D at heart, even in that demo, and it's a lot of wowee for not much more functionality. The desktop and windows concept is too grounded in 2d to be updated in 3d without changing its very foundations.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Developer:
This looks like the 3D environment Microsoft demonstrated 10 years ago on a ATI Rage II. Nothing new here.
Kelly Hogan had a thread about it some time ago which linked to a video.

Yes, because he was obsessed with trying to prove that QW could run on a Rage 128 even though the card lacked the hardware to do any of the calculations that QE demands.

The FAQ is directly here for those interested:
http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/taskgallery/FAQ.htm

We started this project back in January of 1999 as a way of learning about the role of spatial memory in finding large numbers of documents. We finished a first prototype in time to be shown at WinHEC �99 in April of 1999.

The current base implementation runs on Windows PCs with a 400 MHz Intel Pentium II processor, 128 MB of RAM, and AGP support. We initially used the NVIDIA Riva TNT2 graphics accelerator with 32MB of memory and AGP texturing support. With this setup we achieved frame rates above 20 frames per second (fps) without substantial optimization of the code.

Bleah, 20 fps? Notice how the Windows boosters never mention that...

EDIT: for clarification.

[Developer]

I was exaggerating slightly. That's a valid stylistic device.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Developer:
I was exaggerating slightly. That's a valid stylistic device.

Granted. Sorry I overreacted a bit. Re-reading it as an offhanded dismissal of KH gets the tone across better. Hard to tell if you were being serious or not

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
Granted. Sorry I overreacted a bit. Re-reading it as an offhanded dismissal of KH gets the tone across better. Hard to tell if you were being serious or not

The Sun and MS versions are quite snappy, no offense, for what they're doing. We don't even have a 3D plane and there is still a little lag.

BTW, what graphics hardware was the Sun running?

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
The Sun and MS versions are quite snappy, no offense, for what they're doing. We don't even have a 3D plane and there is still a little lag.

BTW, what graphics hardware was the Sun running?

You can make anything look impressive in a demonstration.

Remember how fast OSX was according to the demos?

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
You can make anything look impressive in a demonstration.

Remember how fast OSX was according to the demos?

Oh, we remember.

[Sven G]

BTW, here's an open source 3D-Desktop project:

3D-Desktop is an OpenGL program for switching virtual desktops in a seamless 3-dimensional manner on Linux.



(Click to see a more detailed animation.)

Seems like something similar to Fast User Switching in OS X, with the difference that it doesn't switch users, but virtual workspaces: maybe an idea for Apple, to couple with Expos� (see some of the comments above in this thread) in the future...?

Some other interesting links, in no particular order:

- Blueberry 3D-Desktop;

- Elements of a Three-dimensional Graphical User Interface;

- Vizmo 3D GUI;

- 3D Interaction in Virtual Environment;

- etc. etc. (a web search will yield many others...).