[vexingv]

here are the configurations:
12" ibook
1 G4, 256 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport
12" PB
1.33 G4, 512 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport, Bluetooth

the difference in price, after edu discount, between the two would be around $200 to $300 (depending on whether i add Bluetooth and buy 3rd party RAM for the ibook).

what are the various merits of the two? how do the two differ in performance and battery life?

this is my first mac and i usually run a PC on a 17" monitor (about 15" viewable) @ 1024x768, will the 12" screen be that bad? (i thought about the 15" pb but i could buy 2 ibooks for the price of one 15" pb!)

the 14" ibook has the same specs as the 12" but differs in cost from the 12" powerbook by about $100.

also, how dimms are there on the 12" pb?

[jsiburt]

Originally posted by vexingv:
how (many) dimms are there on the 12" pb?

One soldered to the board and one slot. I just got mine 2 days ago and love it. I have a 17", (This new one is from work) The screen is bright and crisp and it is so much faster than my rev A 17" PB. I installed a 1GB dimm and have not had any Airport issues either.

I have compared this one to a rev A 12" and the newest 12" iBook. The rev C 12" is much faster, quieter, and I have been using it with Photoshop and the fan has not even come on and its cool. I was a little anxious about ordering ti with the whole screen quality issue but I am well pleased.

I suppose the deal with forums and the rise of complaints is to look at how many people actually got duds and how many are happy so they don't say anything.

[Tsilou B.]

I don't know if Apple plans to use the same technology Microsoft will use for Longhorn, but the Longhorn graphics system called Aero would work on the 12" PBs graphics card, but it wouldn't work on the iBook. Since the graphics card is non-replacable in notebooks, this could be another reason to choose the PB.

EDIT: Before you write something like " You're so stupid, Longhorn won't run on Macs" please read this posting, too: <http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...79#post1985927>

[awcopus]

Build quality (read: durability) of the iBook was the clincher for me. The PowerBook is just a little too flimsy for the way I use my portable. The iBook is built like a tank.

All I use it for is writing, net stuff on the road, and watching DVDs while travelling. I do not consider a portable Mac a desktop replacement, so I don't push it to run things like Photoshop and FCP, and therefore have no need to spend gazillions on a PowerBook when an iBook will do quite nicely.

I like the 12" model iBook because it is very easy to carry around. I've had mine for 2 solid years and have really put it through a great deal of travelling. Love how light it is and how it always performs admirably for me.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
I don't know if Apple plans to use the same technology Microsoft will use for Longhorn, but the Longhorn graphics system called Aero would work on the 12" PBs graphics card, but it wouldn't work on the iBook. Since the graphics card is non-replacable in notebooks, this could be another reason to choose the PB.

FYI LH has nothing to do with Macintoshes, OS X or PBs, or anything at all.

[BobK]

My wife had a 12" powerbook. The thing fell apart after 2 years. We paid 2 grand for it new. The drive went first. I expect this to happen in a laptop, no big deal. Then the track pad started acting up, it would fight you to move the cursor. Then completly died. The hindge has always made obsene noises.
Battery lasted about 366 days.
We just brought her a 12" pb to replace it. Hope it lasts a bit longer.
i am holding out my vote in the poll.

[freakboy2]

Originally posted by sniffer:
FYI LH has nothing to do with Macintoshes, OS X or PBs, or anything at all.

yeah especially since someone at M$ was quoted today saying it won't be out until 2008.

honestly, i'm having the same dilema with ibook vs powerbook. I think I'll end up going for the powerbook, even though the ibook has some great points going for it. (not least of which is the fact that I like how it looks better and it feels more durable.)

fb

[MercsLexus2000]

Looks like someone should have purchased (or taken advantage of) AppleCare.

Originally posted by BobK:
My wife had a 12" powerbook. The thing fell apart after 2 years. We paid 2 grand for it new. The drive went first. I expect this to happen in a laptop, no big deal. Then the track pad started acting up, it would fight you to move the cursor. Then completly died. The hindge has always made obsene noises.
Battery lasted about 366 days.
We just brought her a 12" pb to replace it. Hope it lasts a bit longer.
i am holding out my vote in the poll.

[clf8]

Originally posted by sniffer:
FYI LH has nothing to do with Macintoshes, OS X or PBs, or anything at all.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, if I plan on still using this computer in 5 or 6 years and will want to run a Longhorn VirtualPC (assuming it exists), it could be an issue to someone. Someone on crack, that is.

[bashar]

The graphic card in Powerbook might support M$ gui acceleration, BUT, this has been implemented on all macs since jaguar, its called Quartz extreme ,maybe in 10 years ms might catch up with that lonnnng horrrrn

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
I don't know if Apple plans to use the same technology Microsoft will use for Longhorn, but the Longhorn graphics system called Aero would work on the 12" PBs graphics card, but it wouldn't work on the iBook. Since the graphics card is non-replacable in notebooks, this could be another reason to choose the PB.

Originally posted by sniffer:
FYI Longhorn has nothing to do with Macintoshes, OS X or PBs, or anything at all.

Really. Oh, I didn't know that. Never mind...

You didn't understand my point. Aero is some kind of Quartz Extreme for Windows. It has some features Quartz Extreme currently lacks and some of them are implemented using some Pixel Shaders the ATI 9200 does not support. Apple probably wants to keep its lead in graphics technology, so they will have to update Quartz Extreme before 2006, maybe as early as in Tiger. If Apple will also make use of these Pixel Shaders (and why shouldn't they do that), all current iBooks won't support that technology, whereas all current PowerBooks will.

Makes more sense now, doesn't it?

[sniffer]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
Aero is some kind of Quartz Extreme for Windows.

Heh. Do you have something to back your statement up with? I must honestly say that I know to little about Aero Glass right now.

Sorry for dragging the thread a little off track. I think I would've gone for the PB since it has more features without any extra BTO options you'll need in the iBook. Otherwise the iBook is a good option.

[gentryfunk]

Last month I purchased a 12" PB over the 12" IB because of the RAm speed/video chip/video connections.

In terms of screen size, I thought I would be disappointed with 12" but I love it. For a notebook, 12" is a great size. This is a very portable notebook.

And, to top it all off, this is the first Mac I have ever owned. It is incredible!

TGF

[sblunden]

I have 12" powerbook rev A and work at an apple specialist. Powerbooks hold up just as good as iBooks. At the time i got my iBooks were G3's so the differences was bigger but even today i would still pick the PB. While it isn't much smaller, IMO it is significant. Go to your closest apple dealer and look at them side by side, and pick them up, you will see what I mean. Its not something that you will notice reading a spec sheet.

[BlueDjinn01]

The new server setup may not have propagated yet, so if the first link doesn't work, try the second one:

Main link: System Shootouts: 12" iBook vs. 12" PowerBook

Alternate link: System Shootouts: 12" iBook vs. 12" PowerBook

Yep, this is a sneak-peak at the upcoming all-new Mac/PC System Shootouts website (now living at it's own domain name!)

Hope this helps!

[vexingv]

thanks for such great responses. that shootout comparison was really informative. i'm really leaning towards the powerbook now. i dont really care for all that software so the ibook loses its advantage there. and i figure this will be my only laptop purchase for a a few years i might as well spend the extra $200 to be more "future-proof" for whatever might come out.
the thing that keeps me from ordering rite now is the aluminum casing and its susceptibility for scratches and dents. i actually like the strength that the ibook's lexan case offers. also the extra hour of battery life isnt too bad. and whats this i keep reading about the ibook's AE reception being better (arent they both airport extreme cards, except the PB's is preinstalled)?

[Gunner1954]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vexingv:
[B]here are the configurations:
12" ibook
1 G4, 256 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport
12" PB
1.33 G4, 512 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport, Bluetooth


Note that the iBook will only mirror video when connected to a second monitor while the PowerBook will mirror or expand the desktop. (There is a hack for the iBook to do the same.)

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
I don't know if Apple plans to use the same technology Microsoft will use for Longhorn, but the Longhorn graphics system called Aero would work on the 12" PBs graphics card, but it wouldn't work on the iBook. Since the graphics card is non-replacable in notebooks, this could be another reason to choose the PB.

I would consider that unlikely, especially as it also requires a Pentium or AMD processor.

[tekno_geek911]

If your planning to keep it for a couple years I would go for the PowerBook...If not,I would go for the iBook,the PowerBook will be updated to a G5 first and the iBook's will stay G4 for awhile so they wont be outdated as fast,I would think the G4 PowerBooks would be outdated/lose value more than the G4 iBooks when the G5 PB's are available.

[bugs]

Between my PowerBook and my big monitor I have about 260 sq.inches of continuous/contiguous viewing area. The thought of settling for a 12" screen is painful now, and an iBook that can't be expanded is even worse.

Viewing area is an extremely important factor for people who actively use their computers. Many windows from many programs require room to keep order and accessibility. Only the better Macs allow the use of multiple monitors that work harmoniously together.

I really can't understand how most PC users get by with one window and their usually small and blurry monitors. It seems to be part of the legacy of Windows that people are conservative (cautious, afraid) in using their machines and software. Perhaps if they crashed less...

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by vexingv:
and whats this i keep reading about the ibook's AE reception being better (arent they both airport extreme cards, except the PB's is preinstalled)?

The plastic case of the iBook doesn't attenuate the 802.11 radio signal nearly as much as the aluminum case of the PowerBooks.

The older titanium cased PowerBooks were really bad. I used to have a 1GHz TiBook and a 600MHz iBook. There were dead-air spots in my house according to the TiBook, while my iBook always showed full-on signal strength.

In my house now, the same iBook still gets 5 bars worth of signal strength, while the new 12" PB gets down to 4 bars in spots (still not bad at all).

[rytc]

Originally posted by bugs:
Between my PowerBook and my big monitor I have about 260 sq.inches of continuous/contiguous viewing area. The thought of settling for a 12" screen is painful now, and an iBook that can't be expanded is even worse.

To a newbie off the street, Apple may be able to pull the whole buy a Powerbook as it allow monitor spanning whereas the iBook doesn't, however, anyone who has read up on this issue will realise the iBook can do this too. The monitor spanning hack makes this a moot point, so it's silly if it's brought up as a reason to buy a PowerBook.
Cheers Ry

[Cadaver]

Oh, forgot my vote...

I say go 12" PowerBook. Although its measurements are only slightly smaller than the iBook, it feels substantially more sleek in your hands. Dollar for dollar, I think it's better equipped than the iBook (especially if you need to add AirPort, Bluetooth and a bigger HD).

However, if you think you'll need the extra durability, then the iBook is really the best choice. My 12" iBook survived a 45" drop on to a solid wood floor. Would not want to see what a 12" PB looked like after such a tumble. And, if you go iBook and don't mind a little extra size/weight, get the 1.2GHz 14" iBook. Performance will be 90-95% of the 12" PowerBook.

[nagromme]

Someone suggested the iBook being more scratch-proof than an AlBook. It's QUITE the opposite. My eMac is made of the same stuff as an iBook and scratches easily. My AlBook is so far impossible to scratch (knock on aluminum oxide). I've hit it with metal edges, even, and what happens is a mark you can rub off with a finger. That's because anodized aluminum is harder than most of what hits it. Not so with plastic.

Knowing how rugged my 15" AlBook turned out to be, I recommend the 12" too. I wouldn't recommend the bulky 14" iBook if portability is key--but the screen is bigger of course And if you are at ALL thinking about the 15.2" PB... the screen is amazing and bright. Blows away the 12" and iBooks. I'm very happy with mine--worth the price.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
I would consider that unlikely, especially as it also requires a Pentium or AMD processor.

Please read http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...79#post1985927

Thanks.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Heh. Do you have something to back your statement up with? I must honestly say that I know to little about Aero Glass right now.

Of course I have something (I just googled for it, I can't remember where I originally heard all this)

Look here for information on the system requirements of Aero:

http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaul...ott_42580.html

You'll find out that both Aero and Aero Glass need DirectX 9 (specifically the PixelShader 2.0 support). Aero Glass also needs 64MB Video RAM. Then look here:

http://hardware.earthweb.com/chips/article.php/2240751

and you'll see that the GeForce 5200 (PB 12") supports DirectX 9 (and thus, the pixel shader 2.0) while the ATI Radeon 9200 (iBook 12") doesn't.

To see screenshots from Longhorn with the Aero UI, just search on Google for "Longhorn Aero screenshots".

[sniffer]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
Of course I have something (I just googled for it, I can't remember where I originally heard all this)

Look here for information on the system requirements of Aero:

http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaul...ott_42580.html

You'll find out that both Aero and Aero Glass need DirectX 9 (specifically the PixelShader 2.0 support). Aero Glass also needs 64MB Video RAM. Then look here:

http://hardware.earthweb.com/chips/article.php/2240751

and you'll see that the GeForce 5200 (PB 12") supports DirectX 9 (and thus, the pixel shader 2.0) while the ATI Radeon 9200 (iBook 12") doesn't.

To see screenshots from Longhorn with the Aero UI, just search on Google for "Longhorn Aero screenshots".

Yeah, I hear you, but you said "Aero is some kind of Quartz Extreme for Windows." What does that mean, and what does QE and Aero have in common?
Another thing if this is about running Aero under VPC, is that it wont happen on neither of to-days machines. There is a rumor that VPC 7 will support graphic acceleration through QE, but that doesn't have anything to do with Aero. It just mean that VPC eventually will get video acceleration like any other OS X app instead of emulating the video card. I have my doubt we are talking about DirectX acceleration here.

[JohnD]

I just received a new 1.33 Ghz PB 12"
I also own a 15" Titanium 400 PM and I must say the new PB is a lot less flimsy and fragile.

I also must add that I only had one display problem with the Ti after one year of usage and there was a crack in the carbon body. All was repaired under warranty. The speed of the Ti400 has been acceptable over the years. The new 12" PB is a very snappy machine and BT and WF are build in which makes is a pretty loaded mini package. The PB is pretty heavy for such a small machine, at least more than expected when looking at it.
So far I'm very happy with it.

iBook has never been an option. I find it to be yesterdays technology so to speak because the OS is evolving more rapidly and also becomes more demanding. Display options for the 12" PB are a lot better also.

[vexingv]

i just voted myself...12" PB it is.

[mcsharick]

i just voted myself...12" PB it is.

Woohoo! vexingv, you just made the correct choice, congrats

Just to confirm that vote, I was having the same dilema, and I have been operating now on my new Rev C. 1.33Ghz G4 12" Powerbook for approximatley 2 hours. I just purchased it this morning, w/ the SuperDrive. I am the previous owner of two iBooks, and I will beg to differ with previous posts. The PowerBook feels much sturdier and better built. And it is MUCH FASTER.

Why you would use M$'s LongHorn as a basis for comparison between an iBook and a PowerBook is not only bizarre, its downright idiotic! No one gives a crap about LongHorn.

[Cadaver]

Me=loves new 12" PB

[Hoosier_1701]

Originally posted by BobK:
My wife had a 12" powerbook. The thing fell apart after 2 years. We paid 2 grand for it new. The drive went first. I expect this to happen in a laptop, no big deal. Then the track pad started acting up, it would fight you to move the cursor. Then completly died. The hindge has always made obsene noises.
Battery lasted about 366 days.
We just brought her a 12" pb to replace it. Hope it lasts a bit longer.
i am holding out my vote in the poll.

The 12" powerbook has not been available for 2 years. They were initially released at Macworld San Francisco in January 2003. Did you mean a 12" iBook?

[macbuddha1]

I faced the same dilemma 6 months ago, and went with the loaded 12" iBook. Sold it last week and am typing this now on a new 12" PowerBook! It is WAY better! A friend of mine had the PowerBook and I did a lot of comparing. Here are a few of the things that made up my mind:

1. Scratches! The iBook's plastic gets scratched up almost from the minute you take it out of the box. And I even used the RadTech custom sleeve. I have yet to see even a spec on this powerbook!

2. Performance. Sitting side by side, my friend's powerbook smoked my iBook. Not really sure why... more graphics power? .25 Ghz? Anyway, it did.

3. Keyboard/Trackpad. Personal preference, I know, but the powerbook's seems much more solid and useable to me.

4. Prestiege. The PowerBook just has a professional look and feel to it that the iBook doesn't. (Sorry, iBook owners!) I also work at a school, and imagine how I felt when we ordered a whole lab of iBook's, all just like mine! Every kid on campus had my machine. Not very impressive when you are supposed to be the computer "guru" on campus.

5. Price. No scratches, better performance, nicer keyboard and the pride of a professional machine, all for about $300 more. Worth every penny.

I, for one, am never looking back.

Hope this helps!

[Sirchief]

12" PB for me too. Aside from the hardware advantages over the iBook, I just love the cold feel of the Aluminum when I pick it up. It just feels like a solid slab of metal - very satisfying. And what is more annoying than those swirly surface marks that an iBook gets from simply putting it in and taking it out of a bag or case. Plus the screen gets brighter on my PowerBook than my buddies iBook.

[Commodus]

While the decision appears to have been made, I'll chime in with another recommendation for the 12" PowerBook.

When I bought my PowerBook, the choice I gave myself was between that or the iBook G3 800 (this was before the 12" PowerBook existed). The iBook had a nice form factor, but I wanted to make sure that the system would last; I didn't know when I was going to replace it. So while it cost me at least $1000 Canadian more, it ended up being noticeably more effective as a machine in my mind. I know that I can run some apps that G3 users are heavily discouraged from running (GarageBand, for example) and I have more input/output options.

So in other words, don't sell yourself short if you're going to buy - and that includes goods to protect the laptop (such as the carrying case or AppleCare).

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Yeah, I hear you, but you said "Aero is some kind of Quartz Extreme for Windows." What does that mean, and what does QE and Aero have in common?
Another thing if this is about running Aero under VPC, is that it wont happen on neither of to-days machines. There is a rumor that VPC 7 will support graphic acceleration through QE, but that doesn't have anything to do with Aero. It just mean that VPC eventually will get video acceleration like any other OS X app instead of emulating the video card. I have my doubt we are talking about DirectX acceleration here.

Sorry, I don't have the time to look for more information right now. Please do that yourself if you're interested in what Aero does. Otherwise take my word for it. Aero will show window shadows, it can transform windows (genie effect, etc), it supports hardware-accelerated transparent windows, etc. just like Quartz Extreme. And it not only has higher system requirements as Quartz Extreme, it's also more powerful, e.g. if you use the genie effect on Mac OS X, the window shadows are not displayed while the window moves into the dock. With Aero, they are, and that's by no means the only advantage of Aero.

And no, this is not about running Aero under VPC; that won't happen on today's Macs, that's right. I just think that Apple won't rest on their laurels while Microsoft is not only catching up, but even surpassing Quartz Extreme. Apple will update their graphics technology to be at least as powerful as Aero is, and probably they will even make it more powerful than Aero to stay ahead of Microsoft. When they do that (in Tiger or the version after Tiger), they will probably make use of the same features of graphics cards as Microsoft and that means Apple will also use the PixelShaders that are only present in the PB 12" and not in the iBook. And then maybe people who just bought an iBook will regret it, just like in 2002 when Apple announced Quartz Extreme and it didn't run on the then-current iBooks, but only on the PowerBooks.
We'll know more at WWDC 2004. If it's not announced at WWDC 2004, it won't be in Tiger.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
Sorry, I don't have the time to look for more information right now. Please do that yourself if you're interested in what Aero does. Otherwise take my word for it. Aero will show window shadows, it can transform windows (genie effect, etc), it supports hardware-accelerated transparent windows, etc. just like Quartz Extreme. And it not only has higher system requirements as Quartz Extreme, it's also more powerful, e.g. if you use the genie effect on Mac OS X, the window shadows are not displayed while the window moves into the dock. With Aero, they are, and that's by no means the only advantage of Aero.

Alright, but here is the thing. Quartz/QE doesn't draw the shadows for the windows in GPU like Aero/Aero Glass apparently is doing. It uses pre-made half transparent textures to create a shadow "effect". The advance is scalability since you don't even need a QE enabled card to draw shadows. It works just as well on the ATI Rage 128 Pro. Quartz isn't depended on the video card hardware to effectively draw the desired effects. That's a major difference you might want to take into account. Apple got where MS now wants to get when Apple first announced Quartz years ago. The thing that differs is the approach for the "third base" or third generation GUI layer as Ars calls it. But basically Apple is the one ahead.

And no, this is not about running Aero under VPC; that won't happen on today's Macs, that's right. I just think that Apple won't rest on their laurels while Microsoft is not only catching up, but even surpassing Quartz Extreme. Apple will update their graphics technology to be at least as powerful as Aero is, and probably they will even make it more powerful than Aero to stay ahead of Microsoft. When they do that (in Tiger or the version after Tiger), they will probably make use of the same features of graphics cards as Microsoft and that means Apple will also use the PixelShaders that are only present in the PB 12" and not in the iBook. And then maybe people who just bought an iBook will regret it, just like in 2002 when Apple announced Quartz Extreme and it didn't run on the then-current iBooks, but only on the PowerBooks.
We'll know more at WWDC 2004. If it's not announced at WWDC 2004, it won't be in Tiger.

That's a bit of speculation, but it sounds reasonable.. If someone just could explain to me in plain english what's the deal about PixelShaders? But I agree it's probably better to buy the PB if it supports PixelShaders, especially if it has a potential to become a big thing in QE as well. I don't see why we shouldn't expect to see a more mature QE technology in terms of hardware acceleration by the time LH ships.

[riotge@r]

Originally posted by vexingv:
here are the configurations:
12" ibook
1 G4, 256 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport
12" PB
1.33 G4, 512 mb ddr, 60 gb HD, airport, Bluetooth

the difference in price, after edu discount, between the two would be around $200 to $300 (depending on whether i add Bluetooth and buy 3rd party RAM for the ibook).

what are the various merits of the two? how do the two differ in performance and battery life?

this is my first mac and i usually run a PC on a 17" monitor (about 15" viewable) @ 1024x768, will the 12" screen be that bad? (i thought about the 15" pb but i could buy 2 ibooks for the price of one 15" pb!)

the 14" ibook has the same specs as the 12" but differs in cost from the 12" powerbook by about $100.

also, how dimms are there on the 12" pb?

Save your money and get an etch-a-sketch.

[rickray1]

Just bought both: a 12" ibook and a 12"powerbook.

Both are great. I'll use the powerbook more bacause it's a bit faster, but would have been very happy just using the ibook.

Both are more solidly buily that I would have thought. I had a Powerbook Lombard and these 2 new machines are much sturdier.

[stux]

Originally posted by sniffer:
If someone just could explain to me in plain english what's the deal about PixelShaders?[/B]

PixelShaders are little programs which can be written to run on certain graphics cards.

For example, instead of having a "whipped sea" texture, you might have a "whipped sea" pixel shader, which will dynamically generate and render the whipped sea texture on top of your ocean, all 100% in the graphic card.

Its like a baby version of the techniques used in all the major hollywood blockbusters these days (where there is a special program for doing "hair").

[brettcamp]

My dilemma is a little tougher: last year's (Rev. B) 12" PB (on sale) vs this year's 12" iBook.
Price difference (incl. applecare higher on the PB): $250. I'd still have to buy an airport card with last year's PB. My usage is standard web surfing, writing, email.

So far, besides the good looks, the only real advantage of the PB for me is the possibility of adding an apple monitor in future, but that's not definite. this will be my only machine, though, so I'm tempted to add an external monitor eventually.

I worry about the PB's lesser durability, airport reception, and reports that the screens are no better and maybe worse than iBook's.
I'm probably gonna get the iBook, unless someone here can persuade me otherwise.

[vexingv]

Originally posted by brettcamp:
My dilemma is a little tougher: last year's (Rev. B) 12" PB (on sale) vs this year's 12" iBook.
Price difference (incl. applecare higher on the PB): $250. I'd still have to buy an airport card with last year's PB. My usage is standard web surfing, writing, email.

doesnt last year's 12"PB actually have the same if not worse specs than the new ibooks? i think last year's only had 32 mb of vid ram and was only DDR266. what that old PB essentially is a new ibook. so i guess go for the cheaper one. i ordered the new 12" PB and am anxiously awaiting its arrival sometime next week