[TT Esq]

I am EXTREMELY concerned about Apple's entry-level price on the iMac now being $999. This is perhaps a fatal flaw for education customers -- while almost every educator I know favors the Mac over the PC, at $999, an iMac is just about double the price of something like a Dell.

When an elementary school is looking at filling a computer lab with computers, if they can get twice as many machines that are completely adequate for what they are doing, that's a hard decision to make. . . .

Apple, take off the CD-RW, take off a few other odds and ends, and have a bare-bones iMac that is available for buyers where price is just about the #1 concern. . . .

[BRussell]

Originally posted by TT Esq:
<STRONG>Apple, take off the CD-RW, take off a few other odds and ends, and have a bare-bones iMac that is available for buyers where price is just about the #1 concern. . . .</STRONG>

If you'd check out the Apple store for education, you'd realize that's exactly what they've done. There is a 500Mhz CD-ROM Indigo for $849.

[Taloston Man]

I thought it was 799 for the CD-RWless iMac with 64 megs of RAM....
But I could have my stories mixed up.

Trevor Haldenby

[Macintosh]

Apple is not about being all things to all people. They make solutions at whatever the cost happens to be. It would be a step backwards if Apple were to intro a lesser iMac than continually progress its specs (even if that means price) for the performance reasons.

[lee vieira]

Originally posted by TT Esq:
<STRONG>-- while almost every educator I know favors the Mac over the PC, at $999, an iMac is just about double the price of something like a Dell.

</STRONG>

Really?

As others have noted, Apple sells iMacs to education for around $850.

It also comes with about a $150 monitor, which leaves the 'computer' part at around $700. That's twice what Dell charges?

Whoa...Dell sells comps for $350? I didn't know that. I've certainly never seen one that cheap on their site.

They must be real POSes.

--lee

[Phoible]

If all educators love Apples, then they would have a significantly larger chunk of the market. Sure, Apples are friendly computers are good for kids, but they won't run a lot of software and are more expensive than a low end PC (even if the iCrack has more features that any PC).

[surfratt]

Imacs were/are still too expensive for many schools. I am a 1st grade teacher and co-head of technology dept in a inner-city/low income school. We bought many cpus last year, I fought for imacs but Dells were much cheaper, free printers etc.. So even though macs can be cheap, the bottom line is Dell was cheaper so our school unfortunately bought Dell. The bottom line was the all mighty dollar. Apple needs to do more to capture the education market. I am in the trenches, still using Apple IIE's in my class. We are surrounded by 3 gangs, the Bloods, Crips and Loco Mesa's, totally under priveledged. Even with a mac advocate, no macs. they need to do more to truly capture the education market. End of my rant. I love mac, but was hoping for more at MWNY. It doesn't end their. My father is a prof at CCNY and I went to a mac presentation at his college to get them to buy macs. It was superb, but due to software availability and cost they bought 1/2 Dell, even though more than 90% of staff wanted mac. The all mighty dollar rules and hopefuly Apple will realize this. out

[trumptman]

I just don't see how Dell can come swooping into all these schools for sales unless they are so blind as to only consider the purchase price and nothing else, not specs, quality or anything.

My school just purchased a whole load of iMacs. You can go to the education center and buy bundles of the 400 mhz iMacs for $699 each in groups of 20. The include options for Airport, Firewire included and of course the come with software bundles as well.

I can't imagine anyone beating that price with a real machine. I mean sure if you want a celeron running at 66 mhz bus with integrated shared video and snail like response. I am sure you can get them at similar prices. But Apple is treating education very well in my book.

BTW I work in LAUSD for 5 years as a teacher. (I am still a teacher just in MVUSD now.) Every single purchase at the schools in which I teach have been Macs.

I simply move the debate beyond costs (though Apple still does well there too with iMacs) and toward use. Would you rather your children help produce videos and write stories or simply type up letters and reports?

In my case, I always win the debate and as a result, Apple wins as well.

Nick

[surfratt]

Well, my principal looked at one thing, cost. I talked about reliability and creativity. Her response was that most computers in the work force are pc's therefore we should get pc's, plus they are cheaper. She just lost her job so we have a new principal so we shall see how she is. But despite my arguments she went to dell because of cost and pc's in the work force. Maybe I was not persuasive enough or she was hard headed. I tried my best though. Its late and I cant think straight. Go Apple. Viva la revolucion!

[TT Esq]

I'm glad that there have been so many replies! It's great that so many of us are mac-advocates and are pushing to get (keep?) macs in the classroom.

My mom is a teacher, my uncle is a teacher, and I have at least 3 friends (that come to mind right now) who are teachers. They all prefer macs, and 2 of the schools have gone mac. 3 of the schools have gone wintel. In all of the wintel cases -- price was the deal-clincher.

I have done a little more research, and if you do some digging into Apple's site, there indeed IS a $799 mac for schools. It also appears that it can be had for $749 if it is bought in bundles of 25 or more or some such thing. So, I stand partially corrected, that $999 is the bottom line unit available for schools.

In contrast, a Gateway (V900cse) can be had for $699. That's with a 15" monitor, CD-ROM (not CD-RW), no speakers. However, I'm told that they can also be purchased in bulk, which puts the effective price at about $600 per unit. Or a 20% reduction under the bottom price of the iMac. That means, of course, for every four iMacs a school can buy, they could have gotten five Gateways. $100 reduction if no monitor is needed.


Also, Dell has systems for schools (the Optiplex GX50) starting at $769. CD-ROM, no speakers. The bulk price is apparently about $650, putting it at about 14% below the iMac. However, Dell AGGRESSIVELY sells these machines, and they include tons of free software, free printers, free this and that, for schools. So, it's still a deal for schools due to all of the freebies. $120 less if no monitor is needed.


Yeah, from a value perspective, the iMac is the right way to go, hands down, in my opinion. With free USB, firewire, speakers, etc., etc., (not to mention that the all-in-one is priceless in a school, thus avoiding a handful of wires). But from a cost perspective, this is the competition that Apple is facing.

When buying 50 computers at a time, if you could have gotten 60 (or more) for the same price, that gets to be quite a decision for a cash-strapped school. Believe me, such things as speed, graphics capability, etc., have little bearing. Educational programs are comfortable running at 100 MHz (if even that), and my mom's school still has more black-and-white first-generation Macs (running at what, 20 Mhz?) than anything else. There are still five or so Apple II's in regular use. . . .

[Korv]

The iMacs are priced judt right for what they are inteded to do: (1) find a niche and (2) maintain margins.

I do feel there are gaps in the Mac line-up. One between the iMac and PowerMac (where the Cube used to be), and one below the iMac. The iMac comes with tons of cool features, and is great for those "digital lifestyle" folks in the larget market. There are, also, tons of educational institutions and consumers out there who are looking to spend the minimum $$$ to do the one or two things they need. Ususallly those things are browse the web and run a productivity app or two. IMHO, Apple needs a low-end offering below the iMac in the range of $499 to $699 depending on if its got a monitor.

Anyway... think its possible that Apple, with the increase in price of the cheapest iMac, is preparing up for LCD iMacs? If Apple releases an LCD iMac starting at $1099 would you be pissed at the pricing? If the bottom iMac was $799, then the LCD came out at $1099 would you be pissed then? Just wondering why Apple is slowly incleasing the "base" price on iMacs.

Probably nothing like the "consipracy theory" of mine here, but probably just what I mentioned first. Apple isn't going after the low-end, and the pricing is for their target niche.

[rogerkylin]

Obviously Dell thinks there is a reason, but I don't understand why a single PC make cares to get the majority of the education market. Granted, I have never been a PC person, but here's my thinking:

Apple wants to get macs into the classroom because if the kids get started on it, that is what they will be comfortable with and will want to stick with it. If you like mac, or mac OS, you buy a mac. There are no choices.

If Dell puts pc's into the classroom, I don't see why these students will buy Dell pc's later. Why not buy something cheaper/better/different. It seems Dell is losing (or not making) a lot of money for the sake of the pc industry, not Dell in particular.

Is there more loyalty in the the PC market than I am aware of?

[trumptman]

Originally posted by TT Esq:
<STRONG>I'm glad that there have been so many replies! It's great that so many of us are mac-advocates and are pushing to get (keep?) macs in the classroom.

My mom is a teacher, my uncle is a teacher, and I have at least 3 friends (that come to mind right now) who are teachers. They all prefer macs, and 2 of the schools have gone mac. 3 of the schools have gone wintel. In all of the wintel cases -- price was the deal-clincher.

I have done a little more research, and if you do some digging into Apple's site, there indeed IS a $799 mac for schools. It also appears that it can be had for $749 if it is bought in bundles of 25 or more or some such thing. So, I stand partially corrected, that $999 is the bottom line unit available for schools.

In contrast, a Gateway (V900cse) can be had for $699. That's with a 15" monitor, CD-ROM (not CD-RW), no speakers. However, I'm told that they can also be purchased in bulk, which puts the effective price at about $600 per unit. Or a 20% reduction under the bottom price of the iMac. That means, of course, for every four iMacs a school can buy, they could have gotten five Gateways. $100 reduction if no monitor is needed.


Also, Dell has systems for schools (the Optiplex GX50) starting at $769. CD-ROM, no speakers. The bulk price is apparently about $650, putting it at about 14% below the iMac. However, Dell AGGRESSIVELY sells these machines, and they include tons of free software, free printers, free this and that, for schools. So, it's still a deal for schools due to all of the freebies. $120 less if no monitor is needed.


Yeah, from a value perspective, the iMac is the right way to go, hands down, in my opinion. With free USB, firewire, speakers, etc., etc., (not to mention that the all-in-one is priceless in a school, thus avoiding a handful of wires). But from a cost perspective, this is the competition that Apple is facing.

When buying 50 computers at a time, if you could have gotten 60 (or more) for the same price, that gets to be quite a decision for a cash-strapped school. Believe me, such things as speed, graphics capability, etc., have little bearing. Educational programs are comfortable running at 100 MHz (if even that), and my mom's school still has more black-and-white first-generation Macs (running at what, 20 Mhz?) than anything else. There are still five or so Apple II's in regular use. . . .</STRONG>

Again Mac users have to shift the debate. These machines do not come with firewire. They also don't come with Win2000 which is the standard for most networked environments. (You really want to scare them, discuss security with Win98/ME even Microsoft wouldn't recommend them)

Now when you can show the principal iMovie and other programs, you simply win because for $50 more you are getting a machine that can edit video instead of just type a letter. I mean are the kids supposed to get computers that don't even have speakers just to meet a price point?

Also those machines are shared video, 5400 rpm drives, you name it. If they really had to think about paying for and installing Win2000 on machines like that... Apple wins. When you add really purchasing software (Appleworks, iMovie and others included) versus paying for licenses of Office, Apple wins.

Finally win you consider what you are going to use them for.........Apple wins.

Nick

[rogerkylin]

I think also with OSX there is another big reason to use mac. I used to work at a college. The students would get in and screw around with the Windows OS and we'd have to spend hours each week/quarter getting everything fixed.

With OSX, it SHOULD be easier to have student accounts that prevent from them doing something that can't be trivially fixed.

[Cipher13]

The reason they're moving it up - 799, 899, 999 - slowly is so that when the new LCD, G4 iMac gets released, the price increase doesn't seem like such a massive step up.

They want it to be a bell curve, not a straight line up...

[Korv]

Originally posted by trumptman:
<STRONG>
Again Mac users have to shift the debate. These machines do not come with firewire. They also don't come with Win2000 which is the standard for most networked environments. (You really want to scare them, discuss security with Win98/ME even Microsoft wouldn't recommend them)

Now when you can show the principal iMovie and other programs, you simply win because for $50 more you are getting a machine that can edit video instead of just type a letter. I mean are the kids supposed to get computers that don't even have speakers just to meet a price point?

Also those machines are shared video, 5400 rpm drives, you name it. If they really had to think about paying for and installing Win2000 on machines like that... Apple wins. When you add really purchasing software (Appleworks, iMovie and others included) versus paying for licenses of Office, Apple wins.

Finally win you consider what you are going to use them for.........Apple wins.

Nick</STRONG>

Nick, let me start by saying that I agree with you. If I ran a school I would buy Macs. However, I have dealt with budget comittees and logic and argument are rarly effective. Here's the type of responces you can expect from a scool buying board to your comments:

No FireWire?
"Our concern is not with FireWire, or other esoteric technologies. Our concern is with dollars. We don't need bells and whistes, we need computers in the classroom."

Security?
"Our concern is not with security. Its with dollars."

No speakers?
"Our concenr is not with speakers. Its with dollars."

Preformance?
"We don't want the best computer ever. We just want to meet our needs for the fewest dollars"

iMovie?
"Our concern is not with bells and whistles. Its with dollars."

These comitee are merly concerned with meeting the minimum requirements (which is often simply a "computer" in a "classroom", with no further purpose), and want to do it at the rock bottom price. They're buying descision is 100% price motivated, and if you're not the cheapest, you can go home. No matter what unenlightened choices are made, the fasct is, buying descisions are made by bean-counters. That' why I think Apple need a "bottom feeder" below the iMac. If Apple want marketshare, they need to meet the markets nees, and there's a significant portion out there that makes their buying descision on money ALONE.

Just to be clear, I do agree with you, and do think Mac users need to shift the debate. Its just really really hard to do.

[Lolo from Paris]

The only problem I see is having a high end model (700 Mhz) with only CDRW (no combo drive) and still an old ATI 128...

This model is not for schools and it's pretty expensive for the features it's got

I'm sure these models are just here to make us waiting for big changes in the whole iMac line up. Maybe as soon as October ?

Anyway, Apple needs to keep an old CRT low end model for schools and people who don't have money to buy more than 800 $ computers. But iMac is still more expensive than DELL, Gateway or even HP especially without combo/DVD drives. All $999 PC I've seen have CDRW + DVD...


The main problem is that Apple wants to make the same computer for schools and for consumers. They should release an iMac special edition for schools with fewer Hard Drive space, less features and power but cheaper...Maybe with floppy drive etc.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Lolo from Paris ]

[Korv]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>The reason they're moving it up - 799, 899, 999 - slowly is so that when the new LCD, G4 iMac gets released, the price increase doesn't seem like such a massive step up.

They want it to be a bell curve, not a straight line up...</STRONG>

OK, (I admit its a little bit of a "consipracy theory", but) I'm glad to see I'm not the only person on the planet who thought this.

[BRussell]

I think the up in price has everything to do with margins. In this tough economic time, they are trying to make sure they retain high margins.

One thing to note: in the Apple Education store, the price reductions are now $50 rather than $100. (E.g., the $999 iMac has an education price of $949, and the $1299 has an ed price of $1249. I'm talking about individual purchases, institutional prices are cheaper.)

The only time that has happened before is with the $799 iMac, which had an ed price of $749, and the iBook, which has an ed price of $1249, down from $1299. So they're even increasing their margins on individual ed purchases.

Regarding institutional purchases, I think they're doing more wheeling and dealing. Those iBook purchases we've heard about do not match the prices that are published. This is what Dell does, and this is what Apple should be doing more of to compete.

SO, my theory is that they're upping their margins in general, but lowering their prices for institutional bids. I think in general, that's a good strategy, if true.