[The Godfather]

'March of the Million': Over 400,000 pro... JPost - National News
What I don't understand is, if the unhappiness comes from social injustice, and lack of real state, why do I only see European-israelites rather than the less considered native-Israelites in the embedded videoclip?

[imitchellg5]

Because 80 years ago, Israelis were pretty much all European?

[Big Mac]

That's not the reason. Ashkenazim have been more politically active historically. Things are changing with non-Ashkenazim assuming more political power (i.e. Knesset power), but the other groups are still less openly vocal politically speaking. More importantly, there's a growing realization among Israelis that these protests are being orchestrated by the Left to weaken the Netanyahu government (as they did prior to the elections that brought in the POS Ehud Barak), not to improve quality of life of Israelis.

Furthermore, if Israelis are angry about housing, shouldn't they be doing something constructive to bring down housing prices? If there isn't enough housing, shouldn't they be protesting in favor of expanding settlements and - dare I say, annexing Yehuda and Shomron, given that the P.stainians are intent on completely nullifying Oslo a couple of weeks from now?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

That's not the reason. Ashkenazim have been more politically active historically. Things are changing with non-Ashkenazim assuming more political power (i.e. Knesset power), but the other groups are still less openly vocal politically speaking. More importantly, there's a growing realization among Israelis that these protests are being orchestrated by the Left to weaken the Netanyahu government (as they did prior to the elections that brought in the POS Ehud Barak), not to improve quality of life of Israelis.

That's not the reason, but Ashkenazim Jews are the politically active ones? So, which is it?

You may need to consider that weakening the Netanyahu government might also have the effect of improving the quality of life of Israelis.

Furthermore, if Israelis are angry about housing, shouldn't they be doing something constructive to bring down housing prices? If there isn't enough housing, shouldn't they be protesting in favor of expanding settlements and - dare I say, annexing Yehuda and Shomron, given that the P.stainians are intent on completely nullifying Oslo a couple of weeks from now?

You think young Israelis are going to line up to buy houses in settlements on contested lands with rockets flying both ways? Most of the settlements that Israel has been allowed to get away with in the past year are sitting completely empty. It'd be like the city of LA building an artificial island a foot above sea level. Sure, it is additional housing, but no one is going to be stupid enough to move in.

Also, you seem to forget that Netanyahu has always opposed the Oslo Accords vocally.

[Athens]

Besides expanding the settlements or annexing lands to create more would hurt Israels international position. People like me would be very opposed over it. And it would be pretty risky for the families that decide to live in those settlements and add more tension that could cause more attacks. Would be in every ones best interest for that option to not be explored. For Israels international profile and for its own citizens. Is housing prices due to limited lands?

[Big Mac]

Because of our detente on the subject and our improving friendship, I'm purposely not responding to your posts in this thread, Athens. Please don't compel me to respond.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That's not the reason, but Ashkenazim Jews are the politically active ones? So, which is it?

You're not understanding my point, perhaps willfully. It's not about the Ashkenazim being the majority population, either 50 years ago or today. It's about them being more overtly politically active. It's about differing political approaches that happen to be very strongly correlated with ethnicity. I'm not saying demographic imbalances haven't played a major factor in the greater historical political clout of the Ashkenazim, but I am explaining that that's not the direct point at contention and doesn't speak to the original question raised. The original question was why are mostly "European Jews" the ones protesting, and it's mostly because of ethnic cultural differences that exist today and impact the political scene, not due to demography from 50 years ago.

You may need to consider that weakening the Netanyahu government might also have the effect of improving the quality of life of Israelis.

What proof of that assertion can you offer that should warrant such consideration from me? Because left-wing policies pursued over the last nearly two decades - the policies of appeasement, land for false peace, Israeli debasement and demoralization, "post-Zionism" - have worked out so well for Israelis? Tell me why Netanyahu, who is at best weak center-right, but to his credit at least is responsible for hugely positive economic reform, should be repudiated, and how renewed Leftist defeatism would help Israel at this juncture.

Given that the PA has already openly declared it intends to make Oslo completely null and void (having lived up to none of the measures required of it and now breaking the most important one - negotiated settlement between the parties), Israel would be much better off declaring the PA's breach, declaring Oslo thereby nullified and annexing Yehuda and Shomron. Would there be war? Quite possibly. Would there be terrorism? Certainly. Open warfare between Israel, the P.stainians and the Arab-Islamic powers is most likely to happen again some time soon no mater what. Look at Israel's peace partner Egypt - look at what its people fervently desire. Israel can either be realistic about it, expand its borders by asserting its sovereignty over the biblical heartland, and bracing for war, OR it can go the route the Left and many of you guys want and continue to captiulate into oblivion. Doing the same things repeatedly and hoping for better outcomes - Einstein's definition of insanity. Personally, I demand the former scenario because I see reality for how it is and prefer Israeli survival and strength to a Final Solution Redux of full Israeli capitulation in return for empty words printed on dead trees.

You think young Israelis are going to line up to buy houses in settlements on contested lands with rockets flying both ways?

The way you and many others would have it, Israel would withdraw from all of its post 1948 armistice territory to create a new Arafatistan terrorist country, in addition to the one in Gaza (two new Arab terrorist countries), and then rockets would be hitting the heart of the country, not the border towns slightly further away.

Also, you seem to forget that Netanyahu has always opposed the Oslo Accords vocally.

Please, mitchell, you're making a really ridiculous error trying to argue against me here. You don't know what you're talking about, and you're trying to argue with a guy who continually studies the conflict and has written about it professionally for years for high profile media.

Netanyahu is the ultimate Israeli flip-flopper. This is his second go-around as Prime Minister. When he was running the first time he was the ultimate hawk, and you're right he was very strongly against Oslo. But when he got into power he became Oslo's strongest proponent. Instead of working to contain the damage and undo it, he extended it with the Wye River debacle. He ran to the left after campaigning strongly on the right, thereby breaking nearly all the promises that brought him into office. Then Israel, faced with a false rightist and true leftist in Barak (and with Clinton allies pulling strings) elected Barak instead. Netanyahu quickly ran back to the right and tried to run to the right of Sharon. Under Sharon as finance minister he put in place a number of important tax reforms that dramatically boosted the Israeli economy and were likely key to his reelection. Now that he has his second chance, once again his rhetoric has been pretty strong, but he has also been signaling that he's ready to flop and capitulate to whatever Washington calls for. After embarrassing Obama publicly he has apparently privately agreed to everything Obama called for. He's strong rhetorically, but he's much weaker in practice.

Now did you know much of any of the information I just wrote about Netanyahu? I highly doubt it. Go look it up and see if I've described things accurately or not, but I promise you I have. Next time if you're going to pose as having superior knowledge when you're a lightweight, consider first who you're arguing against.

[Athens]

I was being polite and civil on my reply to ensure the continued peace between us. Gotta admit its a improvement

[Big Mac]

Absolutely (civil relatively speaking), and I want to keep it civil, but I have a very short fuse on this topic as most everyone around here probably knows. What you wrote above is still bothersome to me, Athens, but I will refrain from responding in the interest of peaceful friendship between us.

[Athens]

Ya I know. Why I stuck to 2 reasons I hope don't set you off. World opinion (regardless of right or wrong) and personal safety for settlers and the people of Israel. Im sure as long as I don't push your buttons on purpose it will be ok.

[OreoCookie]

@BigMac
That's not what I have heard. A friend of mine is one of the `campers' and what he tells me jives with what you hear on the news: the protesters come from the whole political spectrum, including settlers and ultra-orthodox Jews. It is decidedly not a left-vs.-right protest of the political spectrum, it's a protest of the middle class.

In any case, as luck would have it, I'm going to have a look for myself at the end of the month …

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The way you and many others would have it,

There you go again, inferring someone else's opinion when they haven't offered it. And you're ranting against a rhetorical question that I posed (what if what's right for Netanyahu isn't what's right for Israel), while completely ignoring my main point. I'm done here. Have a great day.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Next time if you're going to pose as having superior knowledge when you're a lightweight, consider first who you're arguing against.

I'm sorry. I bow before your immense and unquestionable knowledge, which seems to extend into what politicians are privately involved with. I wish I could know that stuff.