[Rumor]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Suspensions have their uses. One, the kid doesn't have to fall behind, they can do the work at home. The parents have to make sure that hometime isn't playtime - no tv, computer, nintendo.

The other thing suspension does is make the other parents take it seriously. Yes, they have to work around it. Tough. Teach your child better manners.

(I was suspended once. Self-defense.)

They could work if you live with two parents. I was suspended a few times and had a single parent, so it was just vacation time for me as she was military.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Matty, I would contact social services or child protective services (or whatever the equivalent is where you are) as this could a warning sign of future behavior and/or reflection of events happening at home. That is not normal behavior for children of that age as it goes beyond sexual curiosity and into deeper troubles.

Flicking up a dress in a game of tag is not normal? Wow

[badidea]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

So, did your penis not pop out until you hit puberty or something?

I don't remember what my penis did at the age of 7 till puberty - I think I used it for peeing!

Also, the amount of unsupervised internet time, and the ability to be taken into any movie they want if there's an adult, kids are able to learn about rape, and murder way sooner than say 30 years ago. They see it on tv, and elsewhere and if their parents don't say anything, they think that it's just what's acceptable. Kids, and seeing in this thread, some adults, are very easily influenced.

This part gives me the impression that you think that I don't see anything wrong in what these boys did!? That's not what I said!! Of course it's wrong! But they're KIDS and they should be treated as KIDS!
Teach them that it was wrong what they did.
But as others said before: no need for lawyers and violence - THEY'RE KIDS!!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Flicking up a dress in a game of tag is not normal? Wow

You're being purposely obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are horrid.

was subjected to two boys holding her arms while another boy lifted up her dress and tried to take off her panties.

That doesn't sound like "flicking up a dress during a game of tag". A group of boys restraining a girl and forcefully trying to remove her underwear isn't normal. If it seems that way to you, then you need professional help. What kind of deranged mindset does take to think that the above description doesn't qualify as sexual assault?

Originally Posted by Athens 

You sure, I can see him finger printing the infant at birth and starting a criminal activity file from
Day one.

Age 2 pulled on cats tail. (Animal Abuse)
Age 4 stole a cookie and lied (Theift)
Age 5 ran out of bathroom with no cloth on (indecent exposure)

By 10 it's going to have a record as long as the kid is tall.

This is pure idiocy and shows that you're trolling.

Originally Posted by Athens

At least you call it for what it is, Bullying. Actually I haven't seen a single post on here of any one being dismissive of what happened. Every one is in agreement that they need to be punished. The debate is capital punishment and law suites or parents and the schools.

This sexual assault is just to much. The boys should be executed. I mean the horror, the seriousness of this heinous group of boys out raping girls. Its not even a case of bullying just inappropriate behavior during play.

Capital punishment? Holy hyperbole Batman, more trolling.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That is obviously a very innocent game of tag and in no way shows that those children have watched too many Snoop Dogg videos. Because, as any 8 y/o kid can tell you, it ain't no fun if the homies can't have none.

[Big Mac]

Is that on topic spam posted above me?

[Thorzdad]

Yes, it is.

[Big Mac]

Thank you for saving it, then. High quality spammer, wow!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Tosh.0: 20 Seconds on the Clock - Kids Grinding - Video Clip | Tosh.0 | Comedy Central

With regards to the rest of the thread,

[subego]

I seriously question the value of a thread debating whether a user's child was sexually assaulted.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I seriously question the value of a thread debating whether a user's child was sexually assaulted.

I think it's most active thread in a while, so there's that.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

You're being purposely obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are horrid.

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Had a meeting with my daughter's teacher and the head teacher. 2 boys involved. There was a 3rd boy who was trying to pull my daughter away from the other two towards the teachers. It wasn't a 'planned' event apparently, the boys were chasing the girls (like tag) and my daughter was caught. One boy told another to hold onto her and lifted her dress.

My wife was impressed that I stayed so calm.

Wanna try again?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Wanna try again?

What do you mean by that Athens? I don't understand your reply to [edit] Shaddim.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

What do you mean by that Athens? I don't understand your reply to matty.

I'm not sure what he's going on about either, one comment doesn't disqualify the other at all. He's being a bit daft.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

They could work if you live with two parents. I was suspended a few times and had a single parent, so it was just vacation time for me as she was military.

Tag involves tagging another person and them being it, not having two hold one while a third tries to remove her undergarments.

[Athens]

WOW.........

I'll bold it for you guys then

Had a meeting with my daughter's teacher and the head teacher. 2 boys involved. There was a 3rd boy who was trying to pull my daughter away from the other two towards the teachers. It wasn't a 'planned' event apparently, the boys were chasing the girls (like tag) and my daughter was caught. One boy told another to hold onto her and lifted her dress.

My wife was impressed that I stayed so calm.

One boy held, another lifted up a dress, no undergarments being removed, not 2 boys holding down, and during a game of chaise and tag.....

"You're being purposely obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are horrid."

Big Mac, I assumed he did not read the second update from Mattyb which I reposted, and said try again. His obtuse comment I assumed was because he was still off on the very original post when it was 3 boys attacking a girl and trying to remove underwear.

[Big Mac]

I'm lost, but I've been up all night. Either way, though, I don't see what great functional difference it makes whether two boys held matty's daughter and tried to lift up her dress or if three boys held her and tried to take off her underwear. Perhaps there's a meaningful distinction in there for you, but to me it sounds like if the two boys had had their way she would have been even more seriously assaulted, but it was thankfully cut short before they had their opportunity to violate her further. I don't see the crucial point you're trying to make here, Athens, honestly.

Hey matty, have you thought about an all girls school for your daughter instead? It may be an extreme reaction but I'd be super paranoid about potential future assaults if I had a daughter and she got attacked in the way yours did.

[badidea]

I still have the impression that not many here take the age of the children involved into account in any way - that's quite disturbing that you guys just don't care about the age!
In civilized cultures age is very important if someone can be held responsible for his actions!

And the most important part - there's no difference for 7-8 year olds if they pull down panties of girls or boys because 7-8 year olds don't consider a girl their sex-partner!
And who hasn't pulled any panties as a child just to make the other one look dumb?

(Oh...and of course...in case it get's lost again - these boys need to learn that it isn't ok to hold a girl and lift her skirt or pull down her panties - that's not what I'm trying to say!!!)

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Athens 

WOW.........

I'll bold it for you guys then

Had a meeting with my daughter's teacher and the head teacher. 2 boys involved. There was a 3rd boy who was trying to pull my daughter away from the other two towards the teachers. It wasn't a 'planned' event apparently, the boys were chasing the girls (like tag) and my daughter was caught. One boy told another to hold onto her and lifted her dress.

My wife was impressed that I stayed so calm.

One boy held, another lifted up a dress, no undergarments being removed, not 2 boys holding down, and during a game of chaise and tag.....

"You're being purposely obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are horrid."

Big Mac, I assumed he did not read the second update from Mattyb which I reposted, and said try again. His obtuse comment I assumed was because he was still off on the very original post when it was 3 boys attacking a girl and trying to remove underwear.

I'll admit that I completely missed this update. This no longer sounds like a big deal to me. HUGE difference between simply raising a skirt and being held down while your panties are removed.

[Big Mac]

I don't see that significant a distinction, really. Children that age should definitely not be acting like that. It's not excusable behavior whether it was a bit less severe an assault or not. But that's just my opinion.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I'll admit that I completely missed this update. This no longer sounds like a big deal to me. HUGE difference between simply raising a skirt and being held down while your panties are removed.

He raised her dress to take her panties down. He told my daughter that he would take her panties down, and under questioning by his teacher, he admitted he was going to take her panties down. The head teacher arrived on the scene with him holding my daughter's dress up while being restrained by the other boy.

AFAIK, this has been dealt with in a professional way. I would personally like to hear from their parents, but the event has been noted (they have a sort of school log that has to be submitted to some sort of higher authority, and the details are there).

If anything like this happens again first call will be to the cops.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

WOW.........

I'll bold it for you guys then

Had a meeting with my daughter's teacher and the head teacher. 2 boys involved. There was a 3rd boy who was trying to pull my daughter away from the other two towards the teachers. It wasn't a 'planned' event apparently, the boys were chasing the girls (like tag) and my daughter was caught. One boy told another to hold onto her and lifted her dress.

My wife was impressed that I stayed so calm.

One boy held, another lifted up a dress, no undergarments being removed, not 2 boys holding down, and during a game of chaise and tag.....

"You're being purposely obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are horrid."

Big Mac, I assumed he did not read the second update from Mattyb which I reposted, and said try again. His obtuse comment I assumed was because he was still off on the very original post when it was 3 boys attacking a girl and trying to remove underwear.

After the newest update, you're still wrong. Telling someone such a thing denotes premeditation and intent, hence the boy is a twisted little brat.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Telling someone such a thing denotes premeditation and intent, hence the boy is a twisted little brat.

Dunno about the premeditation. The teacher seems to think that the one that lifted her dress exploited the game of tag when my daughter was caught. But I agree with the twisted little brat statement, especially knowing that she was crying during the event.

[Waragainstsleep]

I think the picture that we all have of what went on has changed somewhat from the original post (hate to say I told you so, but I'm gonna).

This has failed to make much of an impression on some people but I'd like to point out that this has parallels with what happened with Casey Anthony. Too many people overreacted from the start and she got away relatively scot-free because the DA went overboard without the evidence to back his position, all because people were clamouring for the death penalty without being in possession of the facts.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I think the picture that we all have of what went on has changed somewhat from the original post (hate to say I told you so, but I'm gonna).

This has failed to make much of an impression on some people but I'd like to point out that this has parallels with what happened with Casey Anthony. Too many people overreacted from the start and she got away relatively scot-free because the DA went overboard without the evidence to back his position, all because people were clamouring for the death penalty without being in possession of the facts.

Given the new info, it appears to be almost exactly what I thought it was.

[Waragainstsleep]

You still aren't looking at it objectively enough. Planning to remove someones underwear is still not proof that there is anything sexual involved. Kids get curious about the opposite gender. They also know how to embarrass each other.

My understanding is that boys are known to remove each others underpants in public so frequently there is a term for it. It is also my understanding that this is not considered sexual assault even when the boys involved are college age.

There are certain acts that have to be considered sexual assault whether the intent was sexual or not, this incident given the age of the participants does not constitute such an act.
Yes kids these days see more sex on TV and the internet than we did, and yes they copy it but this does not mean they have any idea what they are doing or what meaning it might have to anyone else.
I don't know if American kids ever played it but I when I was young kids played a game called 'Kiss Chase'. Basically the same as tag but if you got caught you got kissed instead of tagged. It was generally the girls that did the chasing and the game usually stopped being played before the boys got old enough to decide they didn't want to run away any more. Try playing that game in your office or workplace and I'm pretty sure that would be considered sexual assault. I mention this because sometimes we forget the things we did as kids that would be less appropriate when we got older.

I'm not saying this incident cannot possibly be sexual assault, I'm just saying that there is still not enough evidence or description for us via the internet to draw any solid conclusions worth listening to by those more directly involved.

Given the OP, if you only hear the words "two boys" "holding down" and "removing panties" I can forgive anyone for imagining the worst case scenario but surely you have enough extra information and a little time to take a deep breath and realise this is not as cut and freeze dried as it initially sounded to you.

[Shaddim]

He told my daughter that he would take her panties down, and under questioning by his teacher, he admitted he was going to take her panties down. The head teacher arrived on the scene with him holding my daughter's dress up while being restrained by the other boy.

Read the above. Now, is forcefully removing someone's underwear, while they're restrained, sexual assault? Is lifting her dress with the intent to remove her underwear sexual assault? Regardless of age, if a kid does that sort of thing they need to be removed from the general school population, to protect the other children, until they've received psychological help. Mattyb's daughter may be fine after this, who knows? Other girls could become severely traumatized by such an attack, so much so that they have nightmares, fear going to school, or become afraid of boys in general. Mattyb's restraint is amazing, I would have flipped out. FWIW, if I had a son and he had done this he would have been spanked, grounded, and given extra chores (after I calmed down, because you never spank a child when you're angry).

Seriously, this type of s*** doesn't wash and has no place anywhere, much less a school. People need to wake the **** up and realize this.

[Athens]

Nope just kids being kids. Now if it was a 24 year old going after the panties of a 8 year old dam right it would be sexual assault. Or a 18 year old. Or a 56 year old. But 8 year olds... nope.

[Shaddim]

I was asking the people who have a certain degree of common sense.

[brassplayersrock²]

It's sad to see that a person who thinks it's okay for a kid to start sexual harassing another is allowed on this board. Hell, Rob is a shining star compared to athens.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

It's sad to see that a person who thinks it's okay for a kid to start sexual harassing another is allowed on this board. Hell, Rob is a shining star compared to athens.

I didn't have problems with Ca$h, I had some great arguments with him about cars and home audio. This is something else entirely, and it's actually a little scary.

[brassplayersrock²]

I agree on that it's scary what has been shown in this thread. I guess being an only child made him think that anything was okay; and it has carried into his adult life, and now he thinks that boys can do whatever they please, and shouldn't be punished. Scary is an under statement.

It's sad how some of last generations of parents were such piss poor parents, that now we have adults that are messed up, and it sucks that they're not forbidden to have children.

Bad parents breed bad people, and then those bad people turn into bad parents, and breed even more bad people.


cycle cycle cycle.

[iMOTOR]

I’m always struck by the notion that someone’s intent is more significant than their actions. As if a child killed a neighbors dog, it would be tolerable ”because he just wanted to see what the inside of a dog looked like.” I find it dubious that these kids are innocent of any indecent intent, but it doesn’t really matter, either way they committed an abusive act.

And this is not a common thing that children do, if this had happened when I was a kid, it would have practically been front page news.

[Athens]

Ya all this thread has shown me is how pathetic American society has gotten. I mean its taken a entire new level of stupidity I didn't think was possible.

Sexual exploration normal in young
Dr. Lucy Berliner, director of Harborview Center for Sexual Assault and Traumatic Stress in Seattle, Wash., said it is “completely outside” accepted medical practice to characterize a 6-year-old’s actions as sexual assault.
Berliner, responding after the State Journal described the allegations, called the charge “very unusual” and equated it to charging a 6-year-old with physical assault for hitting another child.
“Sexual exploration, curiosity and play among children is common,” Berliner said. “Even if there was an attempt to penetrate, it’s still a 6-year-old doing it.”
If a child has no history of other behavioral problems, just talking to him and making sure there are no other issues that need to be addressed would be an appropriate response, she said.

http://www.safersociety.org/uploads/...DoChildren.pdf

preschool (0 to 5 yrs.)
Common: Sexual language relating to differences in body parts, bathroom talk, pregnancy and birth. Self stimulation at home and in public. Showing and looking at private body parts.

uncommon: Discussion of specific sexual acts or explicit sexual language. Adult-like sexual contact with other children.

School-Age Children (6 to 12 years)
May include both pre-pubescent children and children who have already entered puberty, when hormonal changes are likely to trigger an increase in sexual awareness and interest.

pre-pubeSCent ChIlDren:
Common: Questions about relationships and sexual behavior, menstruation and pregnancy. Experimentation with same-age children, often during games, kissing, touching, exhibitionism and role-playing. Private self stimulation.

uncommon: Adult-like sexual
interactions, discussing specific sexual acts or public self stimulation.

http://www.nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pd...ndbehavior.pdf

School-Aged
Children
(approximately
7-12 years)
■ Purposefully touching private parts (masturbation), usually in private
■ Playing games with children their own age that involve sexual behavior (such as “truth or
dare”, “playing family,” or “boyfriend/girlfriend”)
■ Attempting to see other people naked or undressing
■ Looking at pictures of naked or partially naked people
■ Viewing/listening to sexual content in media (television, movies, games, the Internet,
music, etc.)
■ Wanting more privacy (for example, not wanting to undress in front of other people) and
being reluctant to talk to adults about sexual issues
■ Beginnings of sexual attraction to/interest in peers

Although parents often become concerned when a child shows
sexual behavior, such as touching another child’s private parts, these
behaviors are not uncommon in developing children. Most sexual play
is an expression of children’s natural curiosity and should not be a
cause for concern or alarm. In general, “typical” childhood sexual play
and exploration:

■ Occurs between children who play together regularly and know each other well
■ Occurs between children of the same general age and physical size
■ Is spontaneous and unplanned
■ Is infrequent
■ Is voluntary (the children agreed to the behavior, none of the involved children seem
uncomfortable or upset)
■ Is easily diverted when parents tell children to stop and explain privacy rules

Some childhood sexual behaviors indicate more than harmless curiosity, and are considered sexual
behavior problems. Sexual behavior problems may pose a risk to the safety and well-being of the
child and other children. (For more on this topic, see the National Child Traumatic Stress Network’s
factsheet, Understanding and Coping with Sexual Behavior Problems in Children: Information for
Parents and Caregivers at http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/c...orproblems.pdf.)
Sexual behavior problems include any act that:
■ Is clearly beyond the child’s developmental stage (for example,
a three-year-old attempting to kiss an adult’s genitals)
■ Involves threats, force, or aggression It was during a game a tag, in context it hardly applies in this case
■ Involves children of widely different ages or abilities (such as
a 12-year-old “playing doctor” with a four-year-old)
■ Provokes strong emotional reactions in the child—such as
anger or anxiety

The only thing being argued here is if its SEXUAL Assault or Inappropriate behavior. Most of the world Inappropriate behavior. Americans Sexual assault. So whatever, America is going to hell anyways whats one more example of how degraded the society has become. One day maybe its one of your own pre-teen kids going to Jail or getting a record for something that would normally be considered harmless. I stand by my claim its not sexual assault. Just inappropriate bad behavior easily corrected.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

It's sad to see that a person who thinks it's okay for a kid to start sexual harassing another is allowed on this board. Hell, Rob is a shining star compared to athens.

Who said it was ok for a kid to sexual harass another kid... Your confused or really stupid. Im picking the latter . The argument is the definition of sexual assault vs inappropriate behavior.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Read the above. Now, is forcefully removing someone's underwear, while they're restrained, sexual assault? Is lifting her dress with the intent to remove her underwear sexual assault? Regardless of age, if a kid does that sort of thing they need to be removed from the general school population, to protect the other children, until they've received psychological help. Mattyb's daughter may be fine after this, who knows? Other girls could become severely traumatized by such an attack, so much so that they have nightmares, fear going to school, or become afraid of boys in general. Mattyb's restraint is amazing, I would have flipped out. FWIW, if I had a son and he had done this he would have been spanked, grounded, and given extra chores (after I calmed down, because you never spank a child when you're angry).

Seriously, this type of s*** doesn't wash and has no place anywhere, much less a school. People need to wake the **** up and realize this.

I have put the part of your quote that is utterly wrong in bold. What if these were 2 year olds? Would you be locking them up or sending them to therapy?

Its not about the intent to remove pants, its about whether that intent was sexual or not. You failed to address my point about "pantsing" which is a widespread phenomenon and rarely results in prosecutions or lawsuits, at least not without being part of a greater campaign of bullying or abuse. Should 15 year olds who "pants" each other be removed from school/society?

You are going completely over the top without having enough information to go on. If you sat down with this kid and he told you he also intended to start fiddling having removed those panties, you would be entirely justified. For all you know he just wanted to see what was there or he intended to take them as a trophy or something. Again, I'm not saying no punishment at all is warranted, I'm all for punishing kids a hell of a lot more in general, we have a generation of spoiled, entitled brats to deal with but this is a massive overreaction given the lack of details available to you.

[moonmonkey]

Arrange a meeting with her class teacher to express your concern.
Preferably without senior staff present.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by Athens 

http://www.safersociety.org/uploads/...DoChildren.pdf

Athens, what you quoted basically says that kids are curious about sexuality. True. Kids play doctor and compare parts and whisper rumors of how babies are made (accurate or no) etc. The difference here is the force used, the ganging up, the girl was crying. That's not innocent.

No means no. At age 7 they should have already learned about privacy and respecting others.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Athens, what you quoted basically says that kids are curious about sexuality. True. Kids play doctor and compare parts and whisper rumors of how babies are made (accurate or no) etc. The difference here is the force used, the ganging up, the girl was crying. That's not innocent.

No means no. At age 7 they should have already learned about privacy and respecting others.

No-one denies that here Andi!
The problem Athens, me and others have, is the way some here want to treat children to make them understand that what they did was wrong!
Parents who think that children in the age of 7-8 should get beaten or spanked and the envolvement of a lawyer is necessary are truly incapable in educating their children!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I have put the part of your quote that is utterly wrong in bold. What if these were 2 year olds? Would you be locking them up or sending them to therapy?

Its not about the intent to remove pants, its about whether that intent was sexual or not. You failed to address my point about "pantsing" which is a widespread phenomenon and rarely results in prosecutions or lawsuits, at least not without being part of a greater campaign of bullying or abuse. Should 15 year olds who "pants" each other be removed from school/society?

You are going completely over the top without having enough information to go on. If you sat down with this kid and he told you he also intended to start fiddling having removed those panties, you would be entirely justified. For all you know he just wanted to see what was there or he intended to take them as a trophy or something. Again, I'm not saying no punishment at all is warranted, I'm all for punishing kids a hell of a lot more in general, we have a generation of spoiled, entitled brats to deal with but this is a massive overreaction given the lack of details available to you.

Andi answered you. At that age (8) they should know, 2 y/o babies aren't going to hold each other down trying to remove diapers. A kid doesn't have to start "fiddling" for it to be considered sexual assault, what he did was enough to traumatize a girl.

Removing the kid from the school population is to protect the other students, not necessarily as punishment. At 8 they need counseling for this type of thing, and grounding (plus a good spanking). Also, the boys' parents are just as much to blame, the cops need to sit them down and let them know, in no unceratin terms, the severity of the situation and the harsh repercussions of what will happen if this occurs again.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No-one denies that here Andi!
The problem Athens, me and others have, is the way some here want to treat children to make them understand that what they did was wrong!
Parents who think that children in the age of 7-8 should get beaten or spanked and the envolvement of a lawyer is necessary are truly incapable in educating their children!

Bulls***, kids aren't spanked enough, that's part of the problem. I brought up involving lawyers as a secondary measure, if the school didn't do anything about it. If you don't see the discipline problem with the last couple generations of children, then you're blind. Also, I'm talking about calm corporal discipline applied to the rear, not a beat-down.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No-one denies that here Andi!
The problem Athens, me and others have, is the way some here want to treat children to make them understand that what they did was wrong!
Parents who think that children in the age of 7-8 should get beaten or spanked and the envolvement of a lawyer is necessary are truly incapable in educating their children!

Thank you.

I completely dropped out of the discussion for a while, because this is, in a nutshell, the only relevant aspect.

I really don't care to discuss whether or not this was an inacceptable transgression. There's no doubt about that, to me.

What I'm disagreeing with is how to deal with it.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Bulls***, kids aren't spanked enough, that's part of the problem. I brought up involving lawyers as a secondary measure, if the school didn't do anything about it. If you don't see the discipline problem with the last couple generations of children, then you're blind.

See, you're the best example why children shouldn't get spanked. When they grow up, they'll think that violence is the right way to explain something is wrong and become just like you!
And I am not blind - your perspective has changed!
I also have the impression that the last couple generations of children are worse than my generation but my father was a teacher for 40 years and denied that. Nothing has changed (at least at his school)!

[Big Mac]

To those who want to go soft on these kids, thinking it's not too out of the norm of natural childhood behaviors, what if the same thing were to happen again involving the same boys and the same victimized girl? What would you say then?

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No-one denies that here Andi!
The problem Athens, me and others have, is the way some here want to treat children to make them understand that what they did was wrong!
Parents who think that children in the age of 7-8 should get beaten or spanked and the involvement of a lawyer is necessary are truly incapable in educating their children!

Thanks BadIdea, I'm glad we agree that what happened was wrong... but I don't think Athens is on the same page.

I admit to being pretty outraged when I first read this... a 2 week suspension for 7yr olds is probably a bit much. Not sure though that if it were my daughter I'd be happy with loss of recess or some smaller punishment. We weren't there and can't judge the severity.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Andi answered you. At that age (8) they should know, 2 y/o babies aren't going to hold each other down trying to remove diapers. A kid doesn't have to start "fiddling" for it to be considered sexual assault, what he did was enough to traumatize a girl.

Removing the kid from the school population is to protect the other students, not necessarily as punishment. At 8 they need counseling for this type of thing, and grounding (plus a good spanking). Also, the boys' parents are just as much to blame, the cops need to sit them down and let them know, in no unceratin terms, the severity of the situation and the harsh repercussions of what will happen if this occurs again.

A big factor of the trauma comes from the prevailing social attitude towards sex. The more repressed/repressive, the greater the chance of trauma or more severe the trauma. I tend to think that if the victim doesn't really understand any of this, the trauma is actually lessened. If only because a child doesn't know to fear what else might happen in such a situation. If you've ever spoken to a woman who has been raped many times, you might well have found that it actually starts to become routine for them. I don't condone this as the basis of a solution but in some ways its better than being repeatedly traumatised and terrified of your own shadow for the rest of your life.

My example of 2 year olds was extreme but it was there to illustrate a point. It could theoretically happen but none of us would consider it sexual or assault. A line has to be drawn and kids develop at different rates to each other and different rates to when we did 25 years ago or so. My point remains: The exact details and attitudes of the kids involved are what should be the deciding factors in what actions are taken here and where the line should be drawn. Information we do not have on an internet forum.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

It could theoretically happen but none of us would consider it sexual or assault.

Restrain crying weaker outnumbered victim in order to perform an action on them = assault. I don't know how you can deny that.

My point remains: The exact details and attitudes of the kids involved are what should be the deciding factors in what actions are taken here and where the line should be drawn. Information we do not have on an internet forum.

Whatever they thought they were doing, they knew it was strictly forbidden and they knew the victim was unwilling. Therefore their "attitudes" were to perpetrate evil. I don't know how you can deny that either.

There's no case to be made that the boys weren't being intentionally malicious. They unquestionably knew better, and they did it anyway. In the same spirit as you asking "really, ANY age," I will ask you: at what level of wickedness would you agree to extraordinary punishment? Can an 8-year-old really do ANYTHING and you would still think they were "just fooling around?"

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Ya all this thread has shown me is how pathetic American society has gotten.

"Has gotten?" When were these "good ol' days" when child discipline was generally more lenient than it is now?

Or do you mean "look how pathetic American society has gotten, that you can't just grab any girl you want and feel her up without her getting all uppity and complaining about it? In my day we groped our secretaries to show them they'd done a good job, and there was nothing they could do to stop us."

[Athens]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No-one denies that here Andi!
The problem Athens, me and others have, is the way some here want to treat children to make them understand that what they did was wrong!
Parents who think that children in the age of 7-8 should get beaten or spanked and the envolvement of a lawyer is necessary are truly incapable in educating their children!

No my problem is with applying adult laws and labels to children, the lawyers, and Sexual assault part and how overblown its being made. Kids do inappropriate things all the time. You fix it by parenting not using adult crime labels. I actually believe in spanking and being tougher on kids. Not offloading them to a system but actually being parents and parenting and punishing them. If it takes a spanking, 2 weeks grounding, a smack on the knuckles so be it.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

"Has gotten?" When were these "good ol' days" when child discipline was generally more lenient than it is now?

Or do you mean "look how pathetic American society has gotten, that you can't just grab any girl you want and feel her up without her getting all uppity and complaining about it? In my day we groped our secretaries to show them they'd done a good job, and there was nothing they could do to stop us."

Exactly!

I never thought that with such an enlightened bunch of people, a mostly right-wing minority of us would have to belabor the point that sexual abuse on a female is seriously wrong regardless of the age of the perpetrators. Wake up, MacNN. This is common sense.