[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

To me this position is impossible to defend. The classic Mac OS was full of usability problems and technological shortcomings. The Chooser was, as I have said, a bad, over-extended design which was actually outclassed by the options offered in Windows. Technological problems abounded which stemmed largely from the need to graft modern services onto an old OS core. HTML and Java performance were abysmal, efficient use of multiple processors were impossible, TCP/IP implementation was problematic, etc. To me the statement is merely the preference of a familiar way of doing things over the new way and a willful blindness to the problems of the classic Mac OS.

You're completely right about technical shortcomings, but again, I don't think the crux of the Thalo (or whatever) argument is based on a weakness of OS X from a technical standpoint. What was being said in a couple messages back, AFAIK, was that this group feels that some of these specific technical flaws indicate a change in direction - not that these particular weaknesses somehow strengthen an argument that OS X is technical inferior.

Point well taken about the Chooser though. It is a great example of how OS 9 wasn't a panacea from a usability standpoint. Another good example is the Apple Menu, why there was these weird mystical things in the menu, and how to customize this menu?

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't think the crux of the Thalo (or whatever) argument is based on a weakness of OS X from a technical standpoint. What was being said in a couple messages back, AFAIK, was that this group feels that some of these specific technical flaws indicate a change in direction - not that these particular weaknesses somehow strengthen an argument that OS X is technical inferior.

Yes. That's a big chunk of it. The Thalo-ites admit that OS X is technically superior to OS 9 and prior...but charge that the superiority is only recognizable by what Thalo calls a "geek aristocracy," and the result is that the touted superiority isn't really meaningful for any users other than geeks. What they want, as far as I can tell, is for the Mac to be superior for reasons clear to any user, and for those reasons to be apparent for everyone from common users to "pro users." And anyone who puts up with these problems without complaining loudly—at least starting a web page to announce their presence—is a "crap settler."

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by midwinter

Yes. That's a big chunk of it. The Thalo-ites admit that OS X is technically superior to OS 9 and prior...but charge that the superiority is only recognizable by what Thalo calls a "geek aristocracy," and the result is that the touted superiority isn't really meaningful for any users other than geeks. What they want, as far as I can tell, is for the Mac to be superior for reasons clear to any user, and for those reasons to be apparent for everyone from common users to "pro users." And anyone who puts up with these problems without complaining loudly—at least starting a web page to announce their presence—is a "crap settler."

But, IMHO, the flaw in this argument is that it should be clear to the user why an operating system (any operating system) is superior.

1) An operating system is a vehicle for running apps
2) Most users probably can't distinguish between an operating system and the apps that run on an operating system
3) I'm not convinced that the OS 9 UI is superior by today's definitions considering what people are used to (including Windows users), and what people have come to expect from a computer.

OS 9 was brilliant in its day, but stuff changes. OS 9 relied heavily on the desktop metaphor, but there are plenty of other more modern metaphors to draw from which might be more effective at communicating. I think that OS X has, in part, been inspired by New Media. It is more interactive in a way that media-rich devices have become (e.g. its transparency and animation). In some ways, OS X draws more from DVD menus, video games, music videos, or Flash movies than the desktop metaphor.

For instance, a Finder window in OS 9 might be metaphoric to a piece of paper (a document in an office). In today's day and age, many office workers don't work with paper anymore like they did in the past since so much has been digitized. Perhaps we have outgrown this particular metaphor? If this confusion exists, why would we want 23094823094 windows scattered all over the place like he relied upon in OS 9 when working within deep hierarchies?

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

But, IMHO, the flaw in this argument is that it should be clear to the user why an operating system (any operating system) is superior.

Why? 95% of computer users run an OS that asks them to click a button labeled "START" when they want to turn their computer off.

I think that OS X has, in part, been inspired by New Media. It is more interactive in a way that media-rich devices have become (e.g. its transparency and animation). In some ways, OS X draws more from DVD menus, video games, music videos, or Flash movies than the desktop metaphor.

So in other words, it appeals to what the Thalo-ites call "digikids."

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but my point is that they have often legitimate complaints.

Cheers

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but my point is that they have often legitimate complaints.

Cheers

My problem isn't with the legitimate complaints, but with the extension by faulty logic which turns genuine UI complaints into generalized assumptions about Apple's internal logic and direction. Saying that the Finder has problems is legitimate. Saying that the Finder having problems means Apple has "abandoned" its core base for some imaginary "geek aristocracy" is prima facie ridiculous.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Gimme a keyword, yo.

Here's some direct links. I made a mistake, though; these were actually in response to Twilly Spree, not mAxximo. Same thing, though.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...80#post2430080
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...80#post2430844
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...61#post2431861

And I had one more here:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...61#post2432842

BTW, what happened to the "Direct Link" option that used to be on every post? It used to be a lot easier to do this...

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Here's some direct links. I made a mistake, though; these were actually in response to Twilly Spree, not mAxximo. Same thing, though.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...80#post2430080
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...80#post2430844
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...61#post2431861

And I had one more here:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...61#post2432842

BTW, what happened to the "Direct Link" option that used to be on every post? It used to be a lot easier to do this...

Thanks. Good points, all.

When I first started using OS X, the change in making a new folder from Command-N to Command-Shift-N drove me nuts, and I couldn't believe that Apple changed that. Then I something which pointed out this was actually an inconsistency – in all apps, Command-N makes a new window, while in the Finder it makes a new folder. Apple hadn't broken anything, only fixed a long standing mistake. I think a lot of the carping is about that – people got used to inconsistent UI design and think it's the Right Way.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by midwinter

Why? 95% of computer users run an OS that asks them to click a button labeled "START" when they want to turn their computer off.

Good point. The Start Menu might be the best example of people being aware of something at the operating system level. However, what I meant was that most people are probably not going to understand that something like an open or save dialog is (often) driven by the OS, and not the app the user was in when they saw the open/save dialog... if this makes sense.

So in other words, it appeals to what the Thalo-ites call "digikids."

digikids? Maybe kids use consume new media the most, but new media theorists might point to the following examples of new media (many of these are targeted to adults too):

- interactive TV/satellite, TiVO
- cellphone UIs
- PDA UIs
- video games
- CGI in modern cinema (in many cases)
- music videos
- touch screen display/kiosks
- Flash movies
- some would argue all computer applications and websites
- DVD menus

I think several of these mediums present many rich metaphors worth exploring and representing in the OS.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but my point is that they have often legitimate complaints.

From what I've heard and read so far, it sounds like fragments of their ideas are legitimate, but they make huge jumps.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Good point. The Start Menu might be the best example of people being aware of something at the operating system level. However, what I meant was that most people are probably not going to understand that something like an open or save dialog is (often) driven by the OS, and not the app the user was in when they saw the open/save dialog... if this makes sense.

Most users, I imagine, don't know where they save a file, much less some kind of mumbo jumbo about directories.

digikids? Maybe kids use consume new media the most,

I suggest you have a good look at the Frontline documentary The Merchants of Cool, if you haven't already.

but new media theorists might point to the following examples of new media (many of these are targeted to adults too):

- interactive TV/satellite, TiVO

My wife cannot operate it, and she has a Ph.D. and is incredibly tech literate.

- cellphone UIs
- PDA UIs

Both are bad.

- video games

confusing.

- CGI in modern cinema (in many cases)

So because they do something in the movies that looks cool, we're supposed to flock to it? Good thing they didn't have naked girls on the screen in Minority Report.

You see where this is headed.

From what I've heard and read so far, it sounds like fragments of their ideas are legitimate, but they make huge jumps.

As is the case with most conservative positions.

[besson3c]

My wife cannot operate it (Tivo/satellite), and she has a Ph.D. and is incredibly tech literate.

I'm not saying that these interfaces (in addition to cellphones and PDAs) are good, but simply a basis for a metaphor (which, however, only works with those who are already familiar with what the metaphor is referencing). Those who have used some sort of interactive TV guide will be familiar with some things which can be exploited in an OS. Stop/play/pause/etc. buttons are basically a rip off of VCR buttons, which are used within media players like Quicktime, for instance. The transparent volume bezels remind me of some of the transparent features of my satellite.

confusing. (video games)

I disagree. I think video games are among the best at conveying the digital likeness of something within our analog world. Myst is an example.

So because they do something in the movies that looks cool, we're supposed to flock to it? Good thing they didn't have naked girls on the screen in Minority Report.

I'm not talking about eye candy, although I can see why what I said might have been confused as it was the weakest example of something that can be used as a basic for metaphor. However, an example would be the cinematic aspect ratio. In several video games, the game will move to a cinematic aspect ratio during cut-scenes. This is a cue that there is nothing to interact with, just sit back and watch.

[midwinter]

See how easily you fell into the debate, which involved a great deal of goalpost moving?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by midwinter

See how easily you fell into the debate, which involved a great deal of goalpost moving?

Yeah... I can't resist this kind of debate. It's like candy to me! I can't stand it when "debates" get too Bill O'Reilly/Carlson Tucker-ish though....

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Good point. The Start Menu might be the best example of people being aware of something at the operating system level. However, what I meant was that most people are probably not going to understand that something like an open or save dialog is (often) driven by the OS, and not the app the user was in when they saw the open/save dialog... if this makes sense.

My experience is the opposite. Most users I've seen tend to blame the computer for everything that goes wrong, even stuff that is obviously an app's fault. IE is slow and generally sucks? It's the Mac. Dreamweaver locks up? Bloody Mac. Word makes annoying noises when you save, print, etc.? God, I can't stand these Macintosh computers. What was Apple thinking?

Unfortunately, for many users it's a miracle that they ever learned to tie their shoes on their own.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by midwinter

The problem with them [thaloites] coming here to troll is that they've been living in an echo chamber for so long that they don't really operate well in polite company and their arguments seem weak.

Since you remember the MacFixit days, you will also recall that the reason they've been living in an echo chamber is BECAUSE they don't really operate well in polite company with their weak arguments.

Being able to bury a non-issue in a two-page deluge of self-aggrandizing drivel does not make a valid point.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by analogika

Since you remember the MacFixit days, you will also recall that the reason they've been living in an echo chamber is BECAUSE they don't really operate well in polite company with their weak arguments.

Being able to bury a non-issue in a two-page deluge of self-aggrandizing drivel does not make a valid point.

Indeed. And I remember you, too, if you were spheric harlot. I was str1.

[analogika]

Ah, hello there!

:waves:

[LaGow]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

My problem isn't with the legitimate complaints, but with the extension by faulty logic which turns genuine UI complaints into generalized assumptions about Apple's internal logic and direction. Saying that the Finder has problems is legitimate. Saying that the Finder having problems means Apple has "abandoned" its core base for some imaginary "geek aristocracy" is prima facie ridiculous.

Well, it used to be worse. The previous target was the so-called "digikids." Apparently, they were being targeted by Apple at the expense of the "pros."

There were a couple of other zingers they coined. I like "prefnesia." That's where the preferences you specify don't stick for some reason or other. I always found that humorous.

Anyway, it's been touched on before, but the Thalo Philosophy boils down to this: the interface is the computer. If you were to base all your understanding of Maxximo and his pals from this concept alone you will have an easier time when he and Markle wander in.

This is now the second or third thread that ol' Maxx has derailed. Why can't people just ignore him? It's all been said before.

(I was baryonyx, for anyone who cares.)

[mAxximo]

....

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by LaGow

This is now the second or third thread that ol' Maxx has derailed. Why can't people just ignore him? It's all been said before.

I didn't derailed ****. My only two posts in this thread were about font blurring in OS X, a.k.a. “On-Topic”. It's OK, I'm used to people confusing the facts, be it because they just can't see stuff or on purpose. The poor souls.

(Funny, you'd never guess who was the one that actually turned an otherwise normal thread into an unnecessary thalo-bash fest. Hints: a. clueless; b. obsessive compulsive; c. should find a different job.)

[IamBob]

My wife cannot operate it (Tivo/satellite), and she has a Ph.D. and is incredibly tech literate.

That's funny! My mom is opposite (no Ph.D and is incredibly tech illiterate) and has no problems working the sat. She takes the long way to the DVR listing (system menu->DVR vs the DVR button on the remote) but has no problems browsing, setting timers, ordering PPV, etc.

About the only thing that would make the Sat. more usable (for me) would be if the time was in the same place throughout all the screens. You never can tell which one my mom will bring up when you ask for the time. Will it be on the top-left, top left-of-center, far right in a centered box?...their usability people suck.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

My experience is the opposite. Most users I've seen tend to blame the computer for everything that goes wrong, even stuff that is obviously an app's fault. IE is slow and generally sucks? It's the Mac. Dreamweaver locks up? Bloody Mac. Word makes annoying noises when you save, print, etc.? God, I can't stand these Macintosh computers. What was Apple thinking?

Unfortunately, for many users it's a miracle that they ever learned to tie their shoes on their own.

I've seen that before too, but I've also seen users blame it on themselves when stuff fails. I think this happens far too often. An interface that is not able to communicate or software that has technical problems should not make a user feel stupid.

[OreoCookie]

Keep it civil guys …

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

I didn't derailed ****. My only two posts in this thread were about font blurring in OS X, a.k.a. “On-Topic”. It's OK, I'm used to people confusing the facts, be it because they just can't see stuff or on purpose. The poor souls.

(Funny, you'd never guess who was the one that actually turned an otherwise normal thread into an unnecessary thalo-bash fest. Hints: a. clueless; b. obsessive compulsive; c. should find a different job.)

Wow... how quickly we have turned this into a Fox News/24 hour cable new-type yell-fest. Could you two (both Max and LaGow) both stop derailing this thread with this sort of discourse?

Thanks!

[LaGow]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Wow... how quickly we have turned this into a Fox News/24 hour cable new-type yell-fest. Could you two (both Max and LaGow) both stop derailing this thread with this sort of discourse?

Thanks!

Sigh. This is what I suggested in the first place.

[mAxximo]

I'll say it again: I didn't derailed ****.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

I'll say it again: I didn't derailed ****.

I think you mean to say I didn't derail ****. Grammar and all. . .

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by LaGow

Anyway, it's been touched on before, but the Thalo Philosophy boils down to this: the interface is the computer.

Interesting, because this is the very attitude which typifies the typical "Mac zealot".

"Windows has better TCP/IP handling than OS 9, but our GUI is better!"
"Windows has protected memory, but our GUI is better!"

Ad infinitum, ad naseum.

[Jerk_circus]

Hey, I dont know how this thread got so out of hand, but Moki is right. I have a 15" 1.25Ghz PB, and after I upgraded to Tiger, with a CLEAN install, I noticed that text was not as crisp as it was in Panther. Its not noticable any where really, with the exception of Synergy. Whenever the synergy song info dialog box came up, the text was....grainy or something. It was like the shadow was not being rendered properly and it had artifacts around the text instead. it looked horrible. (someone said something about inkjet printing on cheap paper. thats a good way to put it too) I was about to format my system again and do another install because I thought it might have been a problem in the installation process. I tried changing the text smoothing options in the past, but since I never quit and restarted, I didnt notice any differences. Now that I know you do have to quit before changes take place, the change is like night and day. No more stoopid artifacts around text in Synergy! The fonts seem to be thinner though, but thats no biggie. Thanks Moki for making a thread about it. I was starting to think I was the only one with this poblem...

[LaGow]

I have found that I prefer OS X's antiasing over both Windows XP and, of course, the so-called "legacy" Mac OS. There are some who hold XP's ClearType--and I'm pretty sure Woz wrote the initial algorithms--as the shining standard, but I am more than happy with the way OS X looks on my 20" Cinema Display. It's a thing of beauty. That said XP on a Dell flat panel looks pretty good, too. Just not as good. In my opinion.

I personally haven't noticed a difference between Panther and Tiger as far as text display goes.

[Jerk_circus]

Alright. Synergy might look better now (although the text is really thin and hard to read). But now that I've reopened safari, I dont think i can live with this thinner text. Its much harder to read. In panther I never had this problem. Font were thick, easy to read, and sysnergy fonts looked fine. In conclusion, TEXT SMOOTHING IN TIGER IS INFERIOR TO TEXT SMOOTHING IN PANTHER...such a disappointment.

[Jerk_circus]

For all those who have not had to unfortunate opportunity to see the differences in text smoothing in Tiger and Panther, I'll throw up a screen shot later (comparing fonts in Synergy, because thats pretty much the only place I see the differences...and when I have the milk/chocolate theme on. I dont have it on because menu fonts looked so bad)...Its really disappointing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Jerk_circus

Alright. Synergy might look better now (although the text is really thin and hard to read). But now that I've reopened safari, I dont think i can live with this thinner text. Its much harder to read. In panther I never had this problem. Font were thick, easy to read, and sysnergy fonts looked fine. In conclusion, TEXT SMOOTHING IN TIGER IS INFERIOR TO TEXT SMOOTHING IN PANTHER...such a disappointment.

What is your anti-alias setting set to?

[Craig R. Arko]

This dredges up a veritable plethora of forgettable memories. (Sorry, I like Vogon poetry too )


I like to use the standard (CRT) setting pretty much across the board, and these tired old eyes can read it just fine.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I think you mean to say I didn't derail ****. Grammar and all. . .

Crap...why is English so difficult?

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Interesting, because this is the very attitude which typifies the typical "Mac zealot".

"Windows has better TCP/IP handling than OS 9, but our GUI is better!"
"Windows has protected memory, but our GUI is better!"

Ad infinitum, ad naseum.

hrm... OK. What you quote and mock does have a degree of truth. You can say that windows has all these supetior things to it, but what good will that be if the interface is so clunky that you can't use it? And do NOT even start to call me a zealot. I've been personally accused of Apple-bashing. The truth is, I try to be as objective as possible. There are ups and there are downs. In this case, the UI overrides, if only to a certain extent. This extent, however, your examples fail to reach.

And in other discussion... regarding the term "digikid." I dont know the exact implications of the term, but it sounds inherently deragatory. True, there are tons and tons of little geeks running around who represent a certain amount of thoroughly amatuer wanna-bes. But there is a group of young aspiring professionals, who use (and require) professional level tools. Speaking on the behalf of such people, I own a Dual 2.5 Power Mac G5, and a 23" Sony SDM-P234 LCD Monitor. I plan on purchasing Final Cut Studio, Apple Shake, and Alias Maya Unlimited. Not an easy save. I mean not to brag, but in all honesty I do not believe that one can so stratify the market into "pros" and "digikids." Youth does not equal amatuerism, and age does not equal professionalism.

And in releveant discussion... As mentioned in my irrelevent discussion, I use an SDM-P234. The text looks fine. Of course, I am using Panter, so I cant say about Tiger. In comparison to XP, I appreciate the bolder-looking font. Witht the larger monitor, I don't lean as close to it, the extra visibility, minute as it may be, does help. Perhaps the thing I am most appreciative of is that OSXs rendering compared to that of XP is drastically less color-fringed. And as I was corrected upon earlier, OSX retreives the pixel order from the monitor. I'm not sure wheter XP does this or not, so I cannot use it as a point agains XP, but its definate kudos for OSX.

If you want an opinion even more objective, check out xvsxp.com.

Now what I think would be really cool is if after the font becomes such and such small, you can set to to sub pixel, (traditional antialiasing wont be as sharp when something gets too small) and if the text is even smaller, no antialiasing is performed at all (like how it is now.) I dont think that large text needs the subpixel rendering, and the color fringing is positively ...well, negative. But im sure many will disagree so I'll now shut up.

[Jerk_circus]

When I have it under "automatic", fonts are thick and easy to read in safari, but synergy fonts have artifacts around them. Under the "CRT" setting (light, I think) synergy looks good, but the fonts are thin. fonts in safari are thinner too, and just a little bit harder to read....Its not a huge deal, but in the long run, I will probably be putting more strain on my eyes, and I definately dont need that.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by osxisfun

be sure to quit your app and restart. otherwise you will not see the changes. i messed with my settings and said. hey no difference. but i was not quitting and restarting safari between changes.

Logging out, then back in is the "correct" way to activate a new font smoothing setting in all applications.

[ultrapanda]

Back to the original topic, I have been wondering about something for awhile.

On my PowerBook G4/667, I have it set to "Standard - Best for CRT". In most programs, text respects that setting.

However, when I boot the computer, the boot screen seems to have either the Medium or Strong smoothing setting. Also, when I am asked to authenticate (if I install software, for example), those dialogs also seem to use Medium or Strong smoothing.

Has anybody else noticed this behavior?

[JLL]

Yes, the system uses Automatic no matter what you have chosen

[ryaxnb]

Personally I think sub-pixel looks worlds better, but everyone has a right to their own opinion. I think CRT rendering looks like gray text.

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

In all fairness, font blurring got a little better in Tiger. I mean, text looks slightly less blurry. But still not as good as it should be.

The how come every OS vendor, from MS to Mandrake to Apple and more are enthusiastically recommending smoothed type? To me on an LCD sub-pixel looks pure black.

Oh and we're tired of your anti-OS X rantings. Go back to thalo.net please.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Crap...why is English so difficult?

I find you're lack of attention to detail appauling.

[mAxximo]

I would blame it to the 1996 Barolo I was drinking at the time more than anything else...

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

I would blame it to the Kool-Aid I was drinking at the time more than anything else...

fixx0r3d™.

[Detrius]

Originally Posted by JLL

I like antialiasing but I can't stand sub pixel rendering as the green and red pixels stand out too much.

http://grc.com/ctwhat.htm

This website shows how sub pixel rendering works. It also directly compares the different orders. On my monitor, the RGB sub pixel rendering looks best. Also, this guy is using much stronger colors in his example than Apple does. At least you can figure out if your monitor is relatively backwards.

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Detrius

http://grc.com/ctwhat.htm

This website shows how sub pixel rendering works. It also directly compares the different orders. On my monitor, the RGB sub pixel rendering looks best. Also, this guy is using much stronger colors in his example than Apple does. At least you can figure out if your monitor is relatively backwards.

It has nothing to do with my monitor - a couple of my colleagues can't see a thing, but to me, the color fringes are annoying.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

I would blame it to the 1996 Barolo I was drinking at the time more than anything else...

Ahhh, that explains a lot.

[Detrius]

Originally Posted by JLL

It has nothing to do with my monitor - a couple of my colleagues can't see a thing, but to me, the color fringes are annoying.

That's cool. That's why the preference setting is there. Different eyes see things differently. I can't stand a visible CRT at less than 70Hz. I offer to fix the setting for people because it bothers me so much from across the room.