[MikeD]

We need to buy furniture and this once furniture store says that in order to take advantage of a particular offer, you cannot use your credit card since the credit card company charges them for their service. Meaning, by them allowing a customer to use credit cards, they have to pay amex, master card, whatever.

Is this legal? I mean, they're getting paid no matter what.... I've heard of businesses saying no to credit cards for small items (ie under $10) but not for thousands of dollars in purchases!! What do you guys think? I want to get my points!!!

Mike

[Dakar²]

Yes, it's legal. No one has to accept payment in any form.

[mduell]

Legal? Yes.

In line with the terms of their merchant agreement? No.

Tell the merchant you're going to report them to your credit card company, or even better, all of the credit cards they accept. If they don't agree to take your payment on the card (with NO fees), start making phonecalls:
Visa: 800-VISA-911
Mastercard: 800‑622‑7747
AmEx: 800‑528‑4800

The same is true for merchants who refuse to accept small charges on credit cards ($10 minimum, etc) and those who charge a percentage fee for using a credit card (flat fees are OK in some circumstances).

[analogika]

Many, many stores in Germany don't accept credit cards.

CC companies will charge the dealer up to FOUR PERCENT of the billed amount in fees. That makes it pretty much impossible to cut margins on special offers and allow CCs at the same time.

Also, if you figure that retail margins on something like an Apple iMac are something like 10%, it gets difficult to run a brick-and-mortar store, stock items, run advertising, and pay for employee time, and still give up 40% of your margin every time somebody wants to pay using a credit card.

[♥]

They should have advertised "Cash and Carry Only."

[MikeD]

They said that if I were to use a CC, they would not give me the full discount and rather actually 2% of the purchase price would be subtracted. So for something that is $4000, normally there would be a 10% discount ($400 off) but if I used a CC, it would be $80 (2% of $4000) less. So it would be only $320 off. In terms of my bonus points on the card, It's not worth it.. I guess I can try bargaining or talking to the manager since it doesn't say anything about cash/checks only. Either way, I don't think it's fair.

[Blasphemy]

It's not fair. The merchant agreements prohibit them from charging differently for credit versus cash, afaik

[climber]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Yes, it's legal. No one has to accept payment in any form.

I think it is actually illegal in the US to refuse to accept cash for payment of a debt. Not that it makes sense to do that anyway.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by MikeD 

They said that if I were to use a CC, they would not give me the full discount and rather actually 2% of the purchase price would be subtracted. So for something that is $4000, normally there would be a 10% discount ($400 off) but if I used a CC, it would be $80 (2% of $4000) less. So it would be only $320 off. In terms of my bonus points on the card, It's not worth it.. I guess I can try bargaining or talking to the manager since it doesn't say anything about cash/checks only. Either way, I don't think it's fair.

Have you called the credit card company to report the merchant yet?

[MikeD]

No not yet. What would the credit card company do? Also, because they would 'lessen the discount' because I was using a CC is that the same as them essentially charging me? On the phone, they said, "we need to do this because they (The CC) charges us a fee" Is even talking like that supposed to be a 'nono'?

Mike

[turtle777]

I think it's legit to offer a cash payment discount.

They are not obliged to give the discount, so they would be within their merchatn agreement to offer card payment for regular price, or give additional discount on whatever condition.

Heck, they could offer the discount if you get them a cup of Joe's and a donut. That's up to them.

-t

[goMac]

Some places will even charge you extra for using credit. Taco Bell is an example.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Some places will even charge you extra for using credit. Taco Bell is an example.

Clear violation of the merchant agreement.

The CC companies will beat them up for that.

-t

[goMac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Clear violation of the merchant agreement.

The CC companies will beat them up for that.

-t

It's actually posted on the cashier's window. I think it's $1.75 extra. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore without cash. I haven't seen this in Portland though, just here in Seattle.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's actually posted on the cashier's window. I think it's $1.75 extra. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore with cash. I haven't seen this in Portland though, just here in Seattle.

I have never seen anything like it. I would not hesitate to report them.

-t

[MikeD]

Oh well, thanks everyone for your responses.. I'll just pay with a normal check.. I have the funds for the furniture I need, I just wanted the points... Blech! Amex told me to use one of those checks that they send out but that has a fee on them!! haha

Mike

[climber]

The computer dealer that I used to do business would charge more for any purchase with a card. It was kind of a pain because I rarely carry checks now. I purchase direct from apple anymore

[Blasphemy]

a 'surcharge' for using credit or any type of recoupment fee is also a no-no

[Ganesha]

However a 'discount' for using cash is fine.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by MikeD 

Blech! Amex told me to use one of those checks that they send out but that has a fee on them!! haha

Mike

I sometimes get Amex check w/o any cash fees. Those would have been handy.

-t

[mduell]

Originally Posted by MikeD 

No not yet. What would the credit card company do? Also, because they would 'lessen the discount' because I was using a CC is that the same as them essentially charging me? On the phone, they said, "we need to do this because they (The CC) charges us a fee" Is even talking like that supposed to be a 'nono'?

The credit card company may remind the merchant about their agreement, and may cancel their merchant account if there are enough complaints.
That's an amusing usage of the word "need."
I think merchants are funny about this; doing business with cash has its own costs (depositing, etc) and risks (theft, shrink), it's just less obvious, while the credit card fee is very clear.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Clear violation of the merchant agreement.

The CC companies will beat them up for that.

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's actually posted on the cashier's window. I think it's $1.75 extra. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore without cash. I haven't seen this in Portland though, just here in Seattle.

The merchant agreement allows fixed fees in some cases.

Originally Posted by Ganesha 

However a 'discount' for using cash is fine.

True cash discounts (from the listed price) are acceptable, so long as they do not apply to any other form of payment (credit/debit/check). Since MikeD can pay with a check and get the discount, it is not a cash discount.

Rules for Visa Merchants, page 10 (15 of 43)

I have yet to meet a merchant who won't back down (on discounts, surcharges, minimum amount, maximum amount) when I have Visa on the phone.

[Nebrie]

Originally Posted by climber 

I think it is actually illegal in the US to refuse to accept cash for payment of a debt. Not that it makes sense to do that anyway.

Not exactly true

Do businesses have to accept cash? - By Torie Bosch - Slate Magazine

[andi*pandi]

I haven't heard of any merchant adding fees for using a CC in a long time. Most of them realized that if they accept CC they will do more business than with cash. My cafeteria at work just added the ability to pay via CC. For $5 lunch or a $1 cup of coffee. No fees.

Maybe different businesses have different arrangements however.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Many, many stores in Germany don't accept credit cards.

How I hated that. When I lived in London we frequently had to travel to Germany on business. Everywhere else in the world you could just pay by credit card, only in Germany that wasn't possible. It made expenses a real pain in the ass.

[Eug Wanker]

It's perfectly legal to offer a cash discount AFAIK.

The sad part is many stores don't offer this. We're basically forced to pay the extra money that merchants build into the price for the credit card charges.

Well, whatever. I have a credit card that gives me money back on all my purchases.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The credit card company may remind the merchant about their agreement, and may cancel their merchant account if there are enough complaints.
That's an amusing usage of the word "need."
I think merchants are funny about this; doing business with cash has its own costs (depositing, etc) and risks (theft, shrink), it's just less obvious, while the credit card fee is very clear.

The merchant agreement allows fixed fees in some cases.

True cash discounts (from the listed price) are acceptable, so long as they do not apply to any other form of payment (credit/debit/check). Since MikeD can pay with a check and get the discount, it is not a cash discount.

Rules for Visa Merchants, page 10 (15 of 43)

I have yet to meet a merchant who won't back down (on discounts, surcharges, minimum amount, maximum amount) when I have Visa on the phone.

And you have most likely not met many merchants who want you back in their stores. I know I wouldn't want someone like you in any store of mine.

[Seattle]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's actually posted on the cashier's window. I think it's $1.75 extra. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore without cash. I haven't seen this in Portland though, just here in Seattle.

I have seen it at the local Taco Bell in Seattle also.

[All_Insane]

Many small restaurants in Canada will charge an extra 25¢ or so to use debit on purchases under $5, or they will have signs posted that the minimum debit/credit purchase is $5 or $10.

Also, in Canada, its legal to refuse payment in unrolled coin. We looked into this when a guy tried to pay his hotel bill (hundreds of dollars) with bags of nickels, dimes and quarters. Not even loonies or toonies, just silver.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

And you have most likely not met many merchants who want you back in their stores. I know I wouldn't want someone like you in any store of mine.

After a merchant tries to screw me like that, I'm not likely to return.
Why do you think it's OK for merchants to violate contracts that they've signed?

[FireWire]

Is the merchant selling gift certificate? If so, buy a lot of them with your credit card, then return pay the item with the gift certificate! That's what I do when I go to Canadian Tire here. Every time you pay cash, debit or with their own credit card, they give you "Canadian Tire money" back, but nothing if you pay with another credit card. As gift certificate count as cash, I go buy them prior to my purchase and I can get both the benefits of paying with a CC and the discount

[cSurfr]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Many, many stores in Germany don't accept credit cards.

CC companies will charge the dealer up to FOUR PERCENT of the billed amount in fees. That makes it pretty much impossible to cut margins on special offers and allow CCs at the same time.

Also, if you figure that retail margins on something like an Apple iMac are something like 10%, it gets difficult to run a brick-and-mortar store, stock items, run advertising, and pay for employee time, and still give up 40% of your margin every time somebody wants to pay using a credit card.

I was just in Landstuhl for 11 days, and he/she is absolutely right.

[moonmonkey]

Why not get the money out of the bank and pay in cash?

Only a d1ck head would report them and stop anyone else benefiting from the offer.

[Mastrap]

Not necessarily. There are many valid benefits to the consumer available by paying by credit card, from fraud protection to extended warrantees to money back.

[Eriamjh]

Report them and shop somewhere else.

[mac128k-1984]

Its legal and in some repects I can understand why they do that. Every credit card company charges stores for each transactions. Its like a double whammy. They charge the stores and the customers.

Now credit cards a major convenience and if that store doesn't want to use credit cards that's there choise but then tell them you're going to go to their competitor and use the CC to buy what you want.

While it is understandable about the desire for stores to reduce the fees they pay they also need to be customer friendly and in a lot of repects forcing people to pay cash is not a good move

[TETENAL]

There are other means of cashless payment transaction other than credit card with lower or no fees, like direct debit or ec-cash.

[bowwowman]

There are NO laws anywhere in the US that states that a business HAS to accept any particular form of payment, cash, cc or otherwise.

There ARE however laws in every state that says that the business must CLEARLY AND PUBLICLY post it's accepted payment methods in the store AND in their advertising. This includes everyday transactions as well as specials.

If the furn store in question did NOT clearly post the terms of the deals ie that the discounts are/were for cash/ck purchases ONLY, then they are in the wrong. If they have the Visa/MC/AMEX signs on their door, then they can NOT charge extra for CC purchases, but they CAN offer cash/ck discounts without any problems, but again, they MUST publicly post their policies where everyone can see them.

Not posting the terms and then giving you a line of crap once you get to the store & decide to buy something is called, in no uncertain terms.....

BAIT & SWITCH, which is 1000% ILLEGAL in the CONUS!!!

And BTW, the fees that cc companies charge merchants is called a "CODB" (costs of doing business) and is 100% accountable as a business expense, and every business I have ever worked for or shopped at takes that off their taxes anyway............thats why it's illegal for them to charge extra for CC purchases.

And in case anyone is wondering, I know these things due to having been involved with several lawsuits concerning this exact situation, of which I & many other people won easily!

[♥]

We went to Taco Bell last night and they didn't charge us any sort of fee, $1.75 or otherwise.

[Dark Helmet]

As others have mentioned it is not "Illegal" but it is in violation the store/company has with the credit card company so you can report them to the credit card company.

[Blasphemy]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

They charge the stores and the customers.

Not sure what you're talking about ref customers. I don't pay a single cent for my credit card. No annual fee, free online account tools, and I get cash back.

Platinum Mastercard

[mduell]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

Why not get the money out of the bank and pay in cash?

Only a [savvy consumer] would report them and stop anyone else benefiting from the offer.

The offer would be fine if they said "$320 discount for all cash purchases of this item" rather than a percentage surcharge for credit cards.

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

Now credit cards a major convenience and if that store doesn't want to use credit cards that's there choise but then tell them you're going to go to their competitor and use the CC to buy what you want.

If a merchant doesn't want to accept credit cards, they can choose to not enter into a merchant agreement, and then they'll be unable to accept credit cards. But once the merchant signs the merchant agreement, they need to follow the merchant agreement.

Originally Posted by bowwowman 

If the furn store in question did NOT clearly post the terms of the deals ie that the discounts are/were for cash/ck purchases ONLY, then they are in the wrong.

Per the previously-linked merchant agreement, cash discounts can only apply to cash payments. If the merchant offers a discount for payment by check, the same discount must apply to credit card purchases.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Not necessarily. There are many valid benefits to the consumer available by paying by credit card, from fraud protection to extended warranties to money back.

Quoted for truth.

Also, add in cash back bonuses and points that you might earn.

-t

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Quoted for truth.

Also, add in cash back bonuses and points that you might earn.

And the fact it's on credit, so you don't necessarily have to pay for it yet. :o)

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by Blasphemy 

Not sure what you're talking about ref customers. I don't pay a single cent for my credit card. No annual fee, free online account tools, and I get cash back.

Platinum Mastercard

Thats good but most people do pay interest, fees and such.

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

Thats good but most people do pay interest, fees and such.

You only pay interest if you choose to not pay your balance off in full before the end of the interest free period. Fees generally give you other benefits, and are not per-transaction.

[alligator]

I tried to report the school lunch program that charges me a "convenience fee" for use of my credit card. Visa told me to contact Chase, and Chase told me it's Visa's problem. Nobody would follow up and tell the merchant to stop.

I even went so far as to alert the local news service (since this affects most parents in almost all school districts in our state) and they haven't followed up.

Nobody seems to care. Good luck.

[SirCastor]

As a random point, there's a store in DC that accepts only credit cards. The owner worked out a deal to get a lower fee from the CC companies and she doesn't have to worry about theft, miscounting, etc.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by mduell 

After a merchant tries to screw me like that, I'm not likely to return.
Why do you think it's OK for merchants to violate contracts that they've signed?

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

Only a d1ck head would report them and stop anyone else benefiting from the offer.

What he said.