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cSurfr · Jan 17, 2008, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I have to agree with you on this one. Hidefdigest seems to give the PQ a good rating. I saw spiderman 3 on Blu-ray demo at CES. Wow, looks no better than the 3 year old Harry Potter #3 movie on HDDVD. Spiderman 3 on Blu-ray has a lot of noise and quite blurry in many scenes.

That's exactly it. I'm seeing some noise. I had a few gift cards and wanted to play heavenly sword and resistance, so i picked up a PS3 today. I'm playing on my 42" Plasma. Granted, it's almost 3 years old now. I have 2 more BRs coming tomorrow, so we'll see how they turn out. I still can't get over how Open Season looked at the store today. . . I guess that's what 1080p gets you, Other than debt

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 02:13 AM

Leaked memo: Time Warner Cable to trial hard bandwidth caps

exca1ibur · Jan 17, 2008, 02:39 AM

That is exactly what I expect all ISPs to do once all this media hits the online main stream.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

That is exactly what I expect all ISPs to do once all this media hits the online main stream.

Yep, another reason I rather spend my $4 on a DVD rental.

Brien · Jan 17, 2008, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Well you can RENT from Xbox Live, but it has HDCP, as does the Apple TV. But the Macs do not.

I'm more worried of when those HDCP keys are turned on and everyone is forced into buying new hardware.

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 09:33 AM

HD DVD still kickin' with new releases

The product announcements come in a week when the top 10 high-definition disc sellers are all Blu-ray Disc releases, according to an analysis of Nielsen VideoScan First Alert sales numbers by Home Media Magazine's market research department.

Net HD DVD sales, according to Nielsen, constituted only 15% of hi-def disc sales last week. And the top HD DVD seller, "The Kingdom," sold just 10% as many copies as the top Blu-ray Disc release, "3:10 to Yuma."

Originally Posted by cSurfr

That's exactly it. I'm seeing some noise. I had a few gift cards and wanted to play heavenly sword and resistance, so i picked up a PS3 today. I'm playing on my 42" Plasma. Granted, it's almost 3 years old now. I have 2 more BRs coming tomorrow, so we'll see how they turn out. I still can't get over how Open Season looked at the store today. . . I guess that's what 1080p gets you, Other than debt

Digital artifacting noise, or film grain?

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

so the average buyer knows that and can easily hack it? Wow.

I figured you were asking for you and I assumed you were smarter than the average buyer.

But I could be wrong on both points.

starman · Jan 17, 2008, 10:28 AM

I'm still trying to figure out what the "average consumer" is on this thread. So far, nobody's posted a single decent link or an actual statement about what that means.

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by starman

I'm still trying to figure out what the "average consumer" is on this thread. So far, nobody's posted a single decent link or an actual statement about what that means.

The "average consumer" can mean many different things depending on what you're talking about. The average HiDef consumer is a lot different from your average home video consumer.

But if you're looking for a general average consumer you'll find them in Walmart.

CaptainHaddock · Jan 17, 2008, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by starman

I still don't see how HD-DVD can survive. Personally, I'm not even going to bother buying HD-DVD movies anymore. It would take a flippin' miracle for HD-DVD to come back and win.

Not a miracle — if Toshiba and its partners can buy off another major studio to back HD-DVD (like they did with Paramount), the race will be on again.

Not to mention that North America is hardly the only market. HD-DVD might get more of a foothold among distributors in Europe, Japan, or other regions. (For example, VCDs snuffed out VHS in a lot of Asian countries.)

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 11:02 AM

I highly doubt Toshiba will buy a studio, and HD DVD in Japan is a complete lost cause as you should know, considering you live in 名古屋.

starman · Jan 17, 2008, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

The "average consumer" can mean many different things depending on what you're talking about. The average HiDef consumer is a lot different from your average home video consumer.

But if you're looking for a general average consumer you'll find them in Walmart.

And Walmart sells hidef equipment, so again, we're back to square one.

I only bring it up because I think it's seriously hampering this discussion since nobody has defined and/or agreed on what the average consumer is.

Chongo · Jan 17, 2008, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock

Not a miracle — if Toshiba and its partners can buy off another major studio to back HD-DVD (like they did with Paramount), the race will be on again.

Not to mention that North America is hardly the only market. HD-DVD might get more of a foothold among distributors in Europe, Japan, or other regions. (For example, VCDs snuffed out VHS in a lot of Asian countries.)

HD DVD allegedly has the lead in Europe. You can also get titles that are US "BD Exclusive" on HD DVD there. As mentioned earlier, China's CHD DVD players will play HD DVD as well

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Chongo

HD DVD allegedly has the lead in Europe. You can also get titles that are US "BD Exclusive" on HD DVD there. As mentioned earlier, China's CHD DVD players will play HD DVD as well

China is interesting. However, CH DVD is kinda vapourware at this point.

As for Europe, I had thought that overall Blu-ray had the lead, but it may vary by region.

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 17, 2008, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by starman

And Walmart sells hidef equipment, so again, we're back to square one.

I only bring it up because I think it's seriously hampering this discussion since nobody has defined and/or agreed on what the average consumer is.

The "average consumer" who shops at Wal-Mart is not going to be buying HD-DVD or Blu-ray. They may buy an HDTV from Wal-Mart but that's about it. Wal-Mart doesn't really push high-def video formats. I would also say that the "average consumer" who buys an HDTV is not buying it because it's HD, but is buying it because it's a plasma or LCD (i.e., form factor) more than anything else. IMO, the majority of people who buy LCDs and plasmas never actually order an HD receiver from their cable company.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

I figured you were asking for you and I assumed you were smarter than the average buyer.

But I could be wrong on both points.

Oh trust me I know how to do it but I am not the average consumer. I am bleeding edge.

The average person is not going to be able to hack Apple TV do be more useful.

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

The "average consumer" who shops at Wal-Mart is not going to be buying HD-DVD or Blu-ray. They may buy an HDTV from Wal-Mart but that's about it. Wal-Mart doesn't really push high-def video formats. I would also say that the "average consumer" who buys an HDTV is not buying it because it's HD, but is buying it because it's a plasma or LCD (i.e., form factor) more than anything else. IMO, the majority of people who buy LCDs and plasmas never actually order an HD receiver from their cable company.

The Venturer HD DVD player at Wal-Mart seemed to sell OK before Xmas, judging by reports around the net.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

The average person is not going to be able to hack Apple TV do be more useful.

Yep. And I'm sure I can figure it out too, but I'm not going to bother at this point.

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by starman

And Walmart sells hidef equipment, so again, we're back to square one.

I only bring it up because I think it's seriously hampering this discussion since nobody has defined and/or agreed on what the average consumer is.

That's really a moot point. Walmart may sell hidef equipment but that doesn't really factor into who the average consumer is. The average consumer may be buying HDTVs, but they are definitely not buying HD DVDs or Blu-Rays. The average consumer is overwhelmingly choosing DVD.

What I really meant by the "Walmart" comment was that if you're looking for exactly who the average consumer is, you won't find them buying a Pioneer Elite plasma TV from Magnolia inside a Best Buy. You'll really find them buying a 32" Vizio LCD from Walmart or Costco. And they buy a $30 high definition DVD player - at least they assume it's HD because it says so on the box.

And the proof is in the sales numbers - Walmart is by far the biggest retailer in the country, and it can only get to be that way if the average consumer shops there.

CaptainHaddock · Jan 17, 2008, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

I highly doubt Toshiba will buy a studio, and HD DVD in Japan is a complete lost cause as you should know, considering you live in 名古屋.

None of my friends here watch movies often or own any HD equipment, so I'm actually pretty clueless as to who's winning. I haven't seen either format at the nearest rental store either. But since both Toshiba and Sony are Japanese, I would expect them to each have significant sway on home soil.

Edit: Doing some quick research, it looks like all the major Japanese studios (like Toho and Bandai) support both formats. I don't know what sales figures are like.

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Oh trust me I know how to do it but I am not the average consumer. I am bleeding edge.

The average person is not going to be able to hack Apple TV do be more useful.

You're right, but that wasn't your question. Your question was whether or not the aTV played other formats. And my answer to anyone on this forum is YES.

My answer to my parents would be no.

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I highly doubt Toshiba will buy a studio, and HD DVD in Japan is a complete lost cause as you should know, considering you live in 名古屋.

He said "buy off" a studio (i.e. bribe to switch sides) not buy. But that's very unlikely at this point.

As for HD-DVD's status in Europe, I actually did some research when goMac claimed that it was common knowledge that HD-DVD was in the lead there, and found that the opposite was true. I can find the post if people really want to see it. And yes, it really would take a miracle for HD-DVD to make any headway in Japan at this point.

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

He said "buy off" a studio (i.e. bribe to switch sides) not buy. But that's very unlikely at this point.

Yes. We already know they were trying to buy off Warner, but Blu-ray beat them in the buying-off game. And rumour has it they were trying to buy off Fox, and again, Blu-ray beat them in the buying-off game. (Mind you, Fox already heavily leaned Blu-ray in the first place.)

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Leaked memo: Time Warner Cable to trial hard bandwidth caps

I don't think this will get very far. First off, if the cap is anything like 50 gigabytes or above, it won't really be restrictive for HD downloads. Anything in the 20-30 gigabyte range wouldn't be restrictive for SD.

Finally, with competition from stuff like FIOS, I doubt Time Warner would be very successful.

Comcast has an unofficial bandwidth limit of 200 gigs (a month), and I've never hit it, even with my XBox Live and iTunes downloads. And around here, Comcast seems to be the most popular ISP.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock

Not a miracle — if Toshiba and its partners can buy off another major studio to back HD-DVD (like they did with Paramount), the race will be on again.

Honestly, what studios are left for them to buy off? Warner and Fox and obviously not taking payoffs right now... Disney would be the only major studio left to bribe, and you'd need some pretty deep pockets to do that...

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

As for HD-DVD's status in Europe, I actually did some research when goMac claimed that it was common knowledge that HD-DVD was in the lead there, and found that the opposite was true. I can find the post if people really want to see it. And yes, it really would take a miracle for HD-DVD to make any headway in Japan at this point.

Sorry to disappoint.

HD-DVD was in the lead probably about a year ago, and yeah, it's changed since then.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sorry to disappoint.

HD-DVD was in the lead probably about a year ago, and yeah, it's changed since then.

Sorry to disappoint but despite that major achievement they lost.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 17, 2008, 01:06 PM

Electronista | Warner coup already killing HD DVD sales?

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I don't think this will get very far. First off, if the cap is anything like 50 gigabytes or above, it won't really be restrictive for HD downloads. Anything in the 20-30 gigabyte range wouldn't be restrictive for SD.

Ya right. Every month I use about 100-150 gigs and that is without watching streaming movies and only downloading a couple movies.

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Ya right. Every month I use about 100-150 gigs and that is without watching streaming movies and only downloading a couple movies.

Well, like you said, you're not the average person. 100 GB is a HUGE amount by most standards.

Of course, it would no longer necessarily be huge if people started downloading AppleTV HD movies.

One HD movie is 4-5 GB.

So a hard 50 GB cap means 10-12 HD movies, assuming you do nothing else.

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sorry to disappoint.

HD-DVD was in the lead probably about a year ago, and yeah, it's changed since then.

You mean before the PS3 came out?

Regardless, it was only a couple of months ago that you made that claim.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 17, 2008, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

You mean before the PS3 came out?

Regardless, it was only a couple of months ago that you made that claim.

Before the PS3 came out HD-DVD was winning in the US also.

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 01:23 PM

I know. Before the PS3 came out, the war hadn't actually begun in earnest.

TETENAL · Jan 17, 2008, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sorry to disappoint.

HD-DVD was in the lead probably about a year ago, and yeah, it's changed since then.

Heise today reports that HD DVD has a market share of 6% in Europe (players including PS3).

heise online - Toshiba senkt Preise für HD-DVD-Player auch in Europa

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Ya right. Every month I use about 100-150 gigs and that is without watching streaming movies and only downloading a couple movies.

What exactly are you doing!? I used to go to a University that had a 30 gig monthly cap and I hardly ever hit that. (They had a 15 megabit connection for 3000 students, not so great...)

I highly doubt I'm even breaking 100 gigs a month at home, and I do a lot of moving of files online...

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

What exactly are you doing!? I used to go to a University that had a 30 gig monthly cap and I hardly ever hit that. (They had a 15 megabit connection for 3000 students, not so great...)

I highly doubt I'm even breaking 100 gigs a month at home, and I do a lot of moving of files online...

Even with all my downloading I don't think I hit 100 gigs a month. If you took away my less than legal activity I'd probably be down around 5 gigs per month.

Dakar the Fourth · Jan 17, 2008, 02:13 PM

Yeah, I have no idea how you hit that number.

cSurfr · Jan 17, 2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Digital artifacting noise, or film grain?

It's definitely film noise. I just watched Cars, and it looked absolutely amazing.

Dakar the Fourth · Jan 17, 2008, 02:33 PM

I was helping a friend shop for an HDTV and we hit upon some 50+" 1080p Samsung playing the TMNT movie. The clarity is astounding, and I imagine that is in good part because it's a CG film.

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 02:34 PM

Yeah, I roped my wife into watching TMNT with me the other day (Netflix) and we were both very impressed with the picture quality. The movie was actually OK too, if not great.

cSurfr · Jan 17, 2008, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth

I was helping a friend shop for an HDTV and we hit upon some 50+" 1080p Samsung playing the TMNT movie. The clarity is astounding, and I imagine that is in good part because it's a CG film.

You're probably right. CG has to be one of the easiest to turn into HD. I've not seen the new TMNT movie yet. I'll have to add it to my queue.

Eug · Jan 17, 2008, 02:35 PM

Is it true you can't download HD movies through iTunes? If so, that's really stupid.

Originally Posted by cSurfr

It's definitely film noise. I just watched Cars, and it looked absolutely amazing.

If it's film grain, then you can't really blame the format (Blu-ray or HD DVD).

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Is it true you can't download HD movies through iTunes? If so, that's really stupid.

Where have you been for the last day?

Yeah, only standard def with iTunes, apparently because it doesn't support the anti-piracy measures that the AppleTV does. To me, it's just another reason why I'm going to stick to Netflixing BR and DVD movies for the foreseeable future.

starman · Jan 17, 2008, 02:51 PM

What I don't understand is why there are some HD movies on AppleTV and Xbox that are not yet out on HD/BR.

jokell82 · Jan 17, 2008, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by starman

What I don't understand is why there are some HD movies on AppleTV and Xbox that are not yet out on HD/BR.

It's a lot cheaper to just encode the movie in 720p and release it for download than it is to start production on a new disc.

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Is it true you can't download HD movies through iTunes? If so, that's really stupid.

It's kind of a messy issue. If you download an HD movie through iTunes, it can't be transferred to an iPod because an iPod lacks the processing power to playback an HD movie. Apple decided rather than confuse consumers, they should just only supply versions in iTunes that work on the iPod.

Some people have said Apple should address the issue by just warning the user that the HD version won't play on an iPod. I think they should just include both versions with the HD download.

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by starman

What I don't understand is why there are some HD movies on AppleTV and Xbox that are not yet out on HD/BR.

Yeah, I've kinda been citing that as an advantage of online distribution for the past two pages...

(And yeah, Jokell is spot on about why this happens.)

ort888 · Jan 17, 2008, 02:58 PM

And there are a lot of movies that are on disc that aren't available online either. So it cuts both ways.

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

And there are a lot of movies that are on disc that aren't available online either. So it cuts both ways.

Yeah, but Apple is saying they'll have 1000 movies by March... That's a rate of growth that optical discs can't match. Apple in two months will have more movies than Bluray and HD-DVD have ever released combined.

starman · Jan 17, 2008, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Yeah, I've kinda been citing that as an advantage of online distribution for the past two pages...

(And yeah, Jokell is spot on about why this happens.)

Jeez, goMac. It's not an 'advantage' at all. They're 720p and not necessarily in 5.1 and some of them expire. Also, there are MANY more movies on HD/BR than XBL/ATV. I'm just making a point

icruise · Jan 17, 2008, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Yeah, but Apple is saying they'll have 1000 movies by March... That's a rate of growth that optical discs can't match. Apple in two months will have more movies than Bluray and HD-DVD have ever released combined.

How many do they have now? And is that 1000 hi-def movies?

goMac · Jan 17, 2008, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Jeez, goMac. It's not an 'advantage' at all. They're 720p and not necessarily in 5.1 and some of them expire. Also, there are MANY more movies on HD/BR than XBL/ATV. I'm just making a point

I was citing it as an example because Bluray/HD-DVD are the only other format on the market that is still releasing many titles from a back catalog, so it's the only format you can really compare. Yes, I could compare it against DVD, but I doubt DVD is still going back and releasing new versions of Austin Powers.

Comparing against DVD have been a completely unfair comparison, but it would have been in my favor, so I don't know why you're complaining...

Originally Posted by icruise

How many do they have now? And is that 1000 hi-def movies?

I think they said they had 100. We don't know how many are high def until the new AppleTV software comes out. I'd guess probably half will be hi def, half will be standard def, but maybe Apple will surprise me....