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Bring back the unified lounge please!
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
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Religion is frequently treated with a double standard here. Can we discuss it or not? It seems that all too frequently religion will be injected into a topic or an original post as context, and then all further discussion beyond that is shut down.
Either ALL religious discussion is banned in the lounge, or we open it to debate.
For the record I still feel the same way about Politics/War. Banishing it to a ghetto is not a sensible way of dealing with the issue of "sensitive topics". Careful moderation IS.
Religion and politics are frequent modifiers to any social discussion, having to skirt around it in every thread for fear of it being moved to the nutter-ghetto is just plain inane. This arbitrary granulation has made MacNN as a forum for non-technical topics suffer for far too long. It got even worse at the last split when gaming got moved to a separate forum. It was all well meant, I am sure, but I think it's time to let it go and just admit fault.
I know it has been discussed a million times, but please consider unifying all non-Mac/tech topics into the lounge seriously this time. I say this as a long-time active member who have observed the decline in discussion here that can be traced back to splitting the lounge into subtopics.
I certainly know that I'm not the only one who feel the same way, and unfortunately many of those have already long left. So barring the obvious ones that will tell me to join them (like that would help any), please open this topic for debate once again.
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Posting Junkie
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That post has what to do with what I just said exactly?
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Clinically Insane
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That would just result in the Lounge itself getting turned into the "nutter-ghetto." This is why the PL was created.
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Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
That would just result in the Lounge itself getting turned into the "nutter-ghetto." This is why the PL was created.
Nutters would not go unchecked in a well regulated lounge. The PWL lounge now almost exist as an excuse for those people to run rampant there.
The best antidote to crazy is to meld them with normal people.
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Clinically Insane
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I don't understand at all what Eric's problem is.
Religion belongs into the PWL. There.
Religious threads only get shut down in the Lounge, not the PWL.
-t
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Clinically Insane
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If the garbage that runs free in the Political Lounge is allowed free reign in the regular Lounge, I'll have to stop visiting the regular Lounge, too.
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Posting Junkie
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Exactly. The situation today is not desirable. PWL is full of unchecked idiocy, and the lounge hardly has activity at all.
I can leave for two weeks and come back and the same topics will still be at the bottom of the first page.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Nutters would not go unchecked in a well regulated lounge.
We have three options:
1. The Lounge gets general chat threads and the PL gets most highly controversial, "religious"-type threads.
2. The Lounge gets general chat threads as well as all the stuff that would have been in the PL.
3. The Lounge gets general chat threads and "religious" topics are verboten.
The Lounge would have exactly the same obnoxiousness as the PL in situation 2. Is number 3 what you're advocating here?
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Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
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Posting Junkie
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Bottom line is that there's way too much crap tolerated here. I never quite followed the arguments made in favor of the PWL. To me it always sounded like a feeble attempt at creating a barely moderated sub-area in order not to lose a single poster while at the same time not allowing the entire place to go down the crapper. So how's that been working out? IMHO it hasn't. Spillover is real.
If you want to merge the PWL into the Lounge moderation would have to kick into an unprecedented über mode just to keep the place from falling apart. I seriously doubt moderation is willing to do that.
Attracting as many posters as possible seems to be the name of the game. That requires getting new people and keeping all the idiots in the PWL. If you fold the PWL into the regular Lounge, the regular Lounge will become the new PWL. Are you sure that is what you want?
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²
Think that thread offers a poor example because we're offering advice given the OP's religious belief. RR was not trying to open up a dialog on religion, but help the OP. Erik jumped in and crapped on the thread with a couple of emoticons. I agree with Shif's assessment.
Its interesting that I respond to a thread that Shif started (cohabitation thread) I literally type the word Bible and people got up in arms. I just responded to shif saying that I know she's aware of what the Bible says with regards to relationships and her parents being religious. I wasn't quoting Bible passages or thumping the Bible.
Now that Shif responded to Erik to back off because his snide comment was unwarranted he comes here complaining? That seems more whiney then a double standard.
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~Mike
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Other folks have addressed the possible outcomes of such an action.
Instead, I want to question the premise.
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
I... have observed the decline in discussion here that can be traced back to splitting the lounge into subtopics.
Are we sure that's the event that caused a perceived decline in discussion?
Is it separate from, or combined with other factors, such as:
(1) moderators staying on for far longer terms without turnover (avg. turnover used to be closer to 1 year or 2 years)
(2) less new blood due to fewer 'raids' from other forums (car people coming in to argue cars, PC advocates coming in to trash the forums due to TEAM/Seti/other distributed computing feuds)
(3) changes in the mac web space as the customer base changes (I have friends who have observed that the big names in the space no longer seem to be the luminaries they once were in terms of reputation (bob levitus, gene steinberg, ted landau, charles moore, etc.) we aren't immune to these changes either.)
I'd like to see more evidence that shows less discussion stems solely from a split in the lounges. Thank you!
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Religion is frequently treated with a double standard here. Can we discuss it or not? It seems that all too frequently religion will be injected into a topic or an original post as context, and then all further discussion beyond that is shut down.
Either ALL religious discussion is banned in the lounge, or we open it to debate.
For the record I still feel the same way about Politics/War. Banishing it to a ghetto is not a sensible way of dealing with the issue of "sensitive topics". Careful moderation IS.
Religion and politics are frequent modifiers to any social discussion, having to skirt around it in every thread for fear of it being moved to the nutter-ghetto is just plain inane.
So what you're basically saying, Erik, is that you'd quite like the opportunity to hoist the "Dawkins is my god" placards and launch into a big anti-religion argument every time anyone in the Lounge even comes close to mentioning anything even slightly related to religion?
Decline in discussion? As far as I can tell, all anyone ever talked about before the split was badgers and cheese. Cheese and badgers. Can't you just start a couple of Edam-related threads or something?
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Personally I'd like to keep the PL as is. I generally don't go in their and most of the topics covered and the manner in which people post are both that I don't care to see in the regular lounge.
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~Mike
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Posting Junkie
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I'm ambivalent. I thought the old unified lounge worked well enough, but could have been better moderated. If the moderators don't feel they can contain the crowd with a unified lounge, then I'd support the current scheme.
I have seen a unified lounge work on far more populated forums than this one to this day. Through all the crap that has happened in the world. It is possible, but it is only possible if the moderators and community want this.
mmmmm Edam!
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I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by vmarks
(3) changes in the mac web space as the customer base changes (I have friends who have observed that the big names in the space no longer seem to be the luminaries they once were in terms of reputation (bob levitus, gene steinberg, ted landau, charles moore, etc.) we aren't immune to these changes either.)
This.
The Mac community - which was very real, and fairly closely-knit - no longer really exists, and MacNN has somewhat reflected the shift in user demographic.
There's a couple of puerile single-rut running gag-ers, a couple of infights, and the occasional crackpot voyeurism session whenever abe shows up, but the people who used to just hang out because they enjoyed the company and the laughs among like-minded "in the know" Mac users have pretty much all dissoved into the ether (or found other places to hang out).
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I can't say with certainty, but it seems like people used to post interesting non-political news items (technology related or not) far more in the past. That was where a good amount of discussion came from.
Then again, some of the staples of the old Lounge, the HD-DVD v. Blu-Ray, PS3, XBOX or Wii, and Airbus thread have all seen a precipitous drop in participation (for various reasons).
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
This.
The Mac community - which was very real, and fairly closely-knit - no longer really exists, and MacNN has somewhat reflected the shift in user demographic.
I also want to add that back in the day, there used to be a dozen apps for OSX, and this was the place come to find the 13th, or whether you needed to pound software update again for teh snappie.
Apple has never made such a big transition, before or since.
Likewise, it was at about this exact same time that usenet (which was already a mess) really began to fall to ****.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
(or found other places to hang out).
PM me if you find that place
-t
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
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I like the separation, but I don't understand why when a lounge topic that starts off in lounge subject matter territory strays into political or religious subject matter all of the armchair mods start breaking a sweat and insist on some sort of corrective action? The result is almost always much consternation and obsessing over the rules, and the outcome is usually the same.
If a thread meanders into politics or religion, so what? That's life... Why not just let it go? Why must discussion over non-technical issues be neatly and orderly partitioned? Why can't the rules be more general guideliney than biblical?
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Originally Posted by besson3c
I like the separation, but I don't understand why when a lounge topic that starts off in lounge subject matter territory strays into political or religious subject matter all of the armchair mods start breaking a sweat and insist on some sort of corrective action? The result is almost always much consternation and obsessing over the rules, and the outcome is usually the same.
If a thread meanders into politics or religion, so what? That's life... Why not just let it go? Why must discussion over non-technical issues be neatly and orderly partitioned? Why can't the rules be more general guideliney than biblical?
Where in this thread does that even happen? I feel like you complain about armchair mods more than armchair mods armchair mod. Does complaining about complainers make you any better than you believe they are?
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Where in this thread does that even happen? I feel like you complain about armchair mods more than armchair mods armchair mod. Does complaining about complainers make you any better than you believe they are?
I'm making a general statement, but I think it's pretty clear that armchair modding happens *far* more than the frequency of my observations and complaints about it.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Originally Posted by besson3c
I'm making a general statement, but I think it's pretty clear that armchair modding happens *far* more than the frequency of my observations and complaints about it.
What's clear is that you complain about armchair modding at every instance of armchair modding. Add to that what you're saying in this thread, and you have the armchair modders beat.
Also, it's nice to see a couple people using this thread to bring up their own tired points that don't actually correlate to the topic. <-hypocrite
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Whatever Laminar, I'm not terribly interested in picking apart my tactics and motivation. If you can't get past what you perceive to be my hypocrisy enough to look at what I'm actually saying, there really isn't anything I can add to this conversation.
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Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Religious beliefs.
Political positions.
Opinions about wars.
These three topics are different from most. Participants have strong opinions, offend easily, and argue all night without any change of opinion. People have sometimes killed each other over these topics in the real world.
Most other topics are safer. Last I checked, opinions on hard drive brands can lead to endless discussion, but not the other consequences. People can change their opinions if convincing statistics / benchmarks turn up.
Ever since the PWL was spun off, I can testify that no members have killed each other in the regular Lounge. So the strategy is obviously a success.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
3. The Lounge gets general chat threads and "religious" topics are verboten.
The Lounge would have exactly the same obnoxiousness as the PL in situation 2. Is number 3 what you're advocating here?
Not verboten, regulated. Rules still apply: No personal attacks being the number one.
A unified well-regulated lounge would bring a lot more life and discussion to this place. Now everything is scattered, people are allowed to behave like douches in a ghetto and it occasionally spills over in the lounge.
If religion or politics is brought up in a lounge thread I say it's fair game for discussion - otherwise we should delete or move EVERY post even alluding to it. Is that a preferable option? I really don't think so.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Doofy
So what you're basically saying, Erik, is that you'd quite like the opportunity to hoist the "Dawkins is my god" placards and launch into a big anti-religion argument every time anyone in the Lounge even comes close to mentioning anything even slightly related to religion?
Harr harr. Putting a at the end of a personal attack, doesn't make it less of one. Reported.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Maflynn
Now that Shif responded to Erik to back off because his snide comment was unwarranted he comes here complaining? That seems more whiney then a double standard.
Oh please. Number one: My comment was a statement of fact, not snide.
Number two: This is completely unrelated. While spurred by the double standards of the lounge (religion can be brought up in a positive context, but when it is put in a negative light it is shut down), this is part of a much larger problem: The fact that the quality of discussion here has gone down since the well meant split and the current NN environment is hostile and dull.
I am trying to help restore this sense of community by offering some real world advice on how to do that. But if you and your "club" want to keep attacking my persona go right ahead and prove my point!
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by vmarks
Are we sure that's the event that caused a perceived decline in discussion?
Is it separate from, or combined with other factors, such as:
(1) moderators staying on for far longer terms without turnover (avg. turnover used to be closer to 1 year or 2 years)
(2) less new blood due to fewer 'raids' from other forums (car people coming in to argue cars, PC advocates coming in to trash the forums due to TEAM/Seti/other distributed computing feuds)
(3) changes in the mac web space as the customer base changes (I have friends who have observed that the big names in the space no longer seem to be the luminaries they once were in terms of reputation (bob levitus, gene steinberg, ted landau, charles moore, etc.) we aren't immune to these changes either.)
I'd like to see more evidence that shows less discussion stems solely from a split in the lounges. Thank you!
I never claimed it is solely from the split in lounges, but it sure isn't helping.
In addition to what you said traditional forum discussions such as sharing and discussion of interesting links have been spread among a now wider social web (Twitter, Facebook, Digg, etc.)
There is no question that other is a major factor in forum death all over the internet. But with a smaller active user base it is better to put them into a single forum to encourage more discussion rather than splitting them into arbitrary topics. This was a good idea when the forums were growing and topics on a particular subject were so plenty that they deserved a separate area to keep the main lounge more manageable (Although I'd argue that while games never deserved a separate topic, Sports ought to have deserved one as well).
Let's not forget why people come to a forum: To participate in discussion and community.
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
I am trying to help restore this sense of community by offering some real world advice on how to do that. But if you and your "club" want to keep attacking my persona go right ahead and prove my point!
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~Mike
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Harr harr. Putting a at the end of a personal attack, doesn't make it less of one. Reported.
Funny that. I thought it was a question. You've reported me for asking a question? Damn, there was another question... ...you're not going to report me for that too are you? Crap, I did it again.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Professional Poster
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perhaps he's part of the grammar nazis and he was deeply offended that you failed to put a ? at the end of your question
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~Mike
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by Doofy
Funny that. I thought it was a question. You've reported me for asking a question? Damn, there was another question... ...you're not going to report me for that too are you? Crap, I did it again.
Veiling an attack in form of a question is no less of an attack punctuated by a smiley. Stop pretending otherwise.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Maflynn
Exactly my point. THIS is what the once great NN forums have been reduced to. *sigh*
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Veiling an attack in form of a question is no less of an attack punctuated by a smiley. Stop pretending otherwise.
Dude, I don't need to veil my attacks. If it was an attack, you'd know it.
It was a question. Are you going to answer said question? It's relevant to your thinking with regard to the request that you've posed in this thread.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Exactly my point. THIS is what the once great NN forums have been reduced to. *sigh*
You know this is now the pot calling the kettle black. Do you know where I got that little emoticon? Your post after RR's post. You seem ok to post that in someone's thread but get a hair across your butt when someone does it to you.
Perhaps you should look in the mirror before stating how NN forums have declined
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~Mike
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by Maflynn
You know this is now the pot calling the kettle black. Do you know where I got that little emoticon? Your post after RR's post. You seem ok to post that in someone's thread but get a hair across your butt when someone does it to you.
Oh dear. I guess that my point was lost on you then so I'll spell it out:
I WANT people to discuss anything in the Lounge, be it religion, politics or boobies. I just don't want it to be a double standard where people can post anything related to religion and get away with it to then start whining when someone comments on it pointing to the rules.
As for my quality of posting my history speaks for itself so I don't feel I need to defend myself in that area.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by Doofy
So what you're basically saying, Erik, is that you'd quite like the opportunity to hoist the "Dawkins is my god" placards and launch into a big anti-religion argument every time anyone in the Lounge even comes close to mentioning anything even slightly related to religion?
No.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
As for my quality of posting my history speaks for itself so I don't feel I need to defend myself in that area.
-t
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
No.
Thank you.
Now we're getting somewhere.
I happen to agree with you with regard to this, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the lounge doesn't want me to infest the place with politics. I can and will relate absolutely everything to politics - and I understand how this could get a little boring for those with no interest in such matters.
So, it's a deep breath and suck it in.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Doofy
I can and will relate absolutely everything to politics - and I understand how this could get a little boring for those with no interest in such matters.
Actually that would be very welcome. Look at the PWL thread today, a few active threads that have become shouting matches for people with a ban-wish and then a handful of stale old threads.
There is nothing wrong with discussing heated topics as long as it is kept as discussion and not as poo-flinging. From a moderator standpoint, keeping track of just one central area would also be easier.
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Administrator
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A healthy political discussion of the "this" party has been deleted as offtopic bickering, due to overenthusiastic moderation. It's a pity, because they were just getting tuned up. Dang those trigger-happy staff members.
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Clinically Insane
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Posting Junkie
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I'd like to know why almost every single time somebody here dares to suggest a change be made to the forum, there are a handful of people who think it's appropriate to start attacking that person.
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Professional Poster
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Ok, I can't believe what I am going to write now but I kind of think it really has to do with the downfall of the Lounge...
...it all began, when Kevin was banned!
OMG, what did I just say??? Nooooooooooooo
Not that I really think that he made great contributions but this postwhore kept it going! Like a cardiac pacemaker. It's not good to have one but sometimes you'll just need it!
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Status:
Offline
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Unifying the Lounge again would be a bad idea.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status:
Offline
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Kevin?
He also pretty much single-handedly drove away all the people who actually made the Lounge worthwhile, years ago.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Status:
Offline
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Why would that be so? How did Kevin drive anyone away?
Where did our stars go, btw?
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
There is nothing wrong with discussing heated topics as long as it is kept as discussion and not as poo-flinging. From a moderator standpoint, keeping track of just one central area would also be easier.
Well, both lounges are moderated differently. When you're dealing with `in-between threads', then it might not be clear what way of moderation you actually use.
Regarding dwindling traffic, I am not sure what the cause is. vmarks, I think, has a point when he's saying that the demographics of the Mac community is changing rapidly these days, from a small, tightly knit community. Most of the community was in a few niches of IT: publishing, education, etc.
Macrumors has grown much more steadily, but I think their site is getting a lot more traffic to begin with. Rumors are (apparently) more interesting than real news … IMO the traffic starts on the regular news page and then trickles down to the forum, not the other way around.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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