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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Which OS (X / Windows) is more "open" ?

Which OS (X / Windows) is more "open" ?
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badtz
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Sep 24, 2005, 02:04 AM
 
I'm writing a research paper for my CS class about the "open" nature (less proprietary) of each operating system ... and was wondering if anyone had suggestions on reasonings OS X is a less proprietary system than Windows ..? [is that even true? of course I'm biased, so I'm trying to get the stance from both sides]

Any suggestions would be appreciated here's some from my list so far:

- support open formats for web browsing

- support for open (relatively) format video codecs (mpeg-4/h.263/h.264/etc)

- sqllite db for applications


proprietary:

- iTunes DRM

- iLife file formats

- iPod+iTunes+iTMS




... any suggestions for support of Windows is also appreciated.

Thanks
     
CaptainHaddock
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Sep 24, 2005, 02:32 AM
 
Here are some comparisons:

✓ OS X uses an open source Mach/BSD kernel that anyone can compile or modify for their own use.
☓ Windows uses its secretive, closed-source Win32 kernel.

✓ Installing OS X requires no serial number and no product activation.
☓ Installing Windows requires both serial numbers and demeaning activation procedures

✓ OS X users the open standard OpenGL for video rendering.
☓ Windows uses its own proprietary DirectX for video.

✓ OS X printing and display compositing uses PDF, an open standard.
☓ Windows XP uses kludgy undefined technology for printing and compositing.
☓ Windows Vista will use Metro, its own proprietary format.

✓ Apple gives all users and developers its Xcode develoment tools for free.
☓ Microsoft charges hefty prices for its development tools.

✓ Apple uses the open-source Webkit (based on KHTML) for its Safari browser.
☓ Microsoft users a secret, proprietary rendering engine for IE.

✓ Safari supports standards-compliant Javascript, CSS, and PNG support. Extensions like Canvas have also been submitted as open standards.
☓ IE uses its own Javascript model, non-compliant CSS, and broken PNG support. Its many extensions, like ActiveX filters, have not been submitted as standards.

✓ OS X comes with the open-source Apache web server, MySQL, and PHP.
☓ The few web server technologies Windows ships with are all proprietary.

✓ Most iLife formats use XML in a bundle format that is easy to open and examine. These formats are partially described in the developer documentation.
☓ Most Microsoft applications use secretive binary formats.

☓ iTunes DRM is not great, but it has many work-arounds and is not meant to hamper the user.
☓☓ Microsoft's WMV and WMA DRM is more restrictive.
☓☓☓ Windows Vista uses multimedia libraries designed by Hollywood studios to restrict media playback and prevent the user from using his own hardware.

✓ The default music format for iTunes is AAC, part of the open Mpeg-4 specification.
☓ Microsoft prefers its proprietary WMA format.
     
badtz  (op)
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Sep 24, 2005, 03:17 AM
 
thanks for the VERY comprehensive description! Very well marked/organized
     
sfgiantsfan
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Sep 24, 2005, 05:10 AM
 
i agree, good points too...
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loki74
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Sep 24, 2005, 05:30 AM
 
Interesting.

Now that I analyze it (having read CptHaddock's list) OSX is indeed much more open, and Windows more proprietary.

I think the reason the Macintosh OS is regarded as proprietary is because the OS only runs on Macs. But other than this, it is a very open product.

...hmm, I wonder what james9490 would have to say about this?

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bowwowman
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Sep 24, 2005, 06:58 AM
 
he Macintosh OS is regarded as proprietary is because the OS only runs on Macs.
The Mac/OS can be as open as a door to another universe, but it IS proprietary in the 1 single way that counts as relevant......

You can only get the Mac boot rom from Apple, and nowhere else. And without that, all those billions of line of code called OS X is just a bunch of gibberish 1's & 0's, hehehe...........
Personally I find it hilarious that you have the hots for my gramma. Especially seeins how she is 3x your age, and makes your Brittney-Spears-wannabe 30-something wife look like a rag doll who went thru WWIII with a burning stick of dynamite up her a** :)
     
ghporter
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Sep 24, 2005, 08:07 AM
 
For your paper, I'd rephrase CaptainHaddock's second comparison to read:

✓ Installing OS X requires no serial number and no product activation.
☓ Installing Windows requires both serial numbers and intrusive activation procedures

Activation is not supposed to do anything but evaluate the hardware the OS is being installed on; that some people feel it is demeaning is a value judgement that (however valid) doesn't belong in your paper.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
budster101
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Sep 24, 2005, 08:20 AM
 
Actually it does belong. If you do NOT activate Windows in 30 days, guess what? Just have one blue screen where you have to reinstall WIndows. It will lock you out of the start up procedure until you CALL support and get a NEW activation key.

Fact. I was on hold with Microcrap for a friend who's computer I was attempting to fix... turns out he was like:

Activation whuh?
Key?
Whuh?

Last time I worked on his machine, or any Windows computer. They are restrictive to say the least.
This belongs, as well as using my example for reference if you like in the footnotes, as to why.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 24, 2005, 08:21 AM
 
Captain Haddock made an impressive list already, there's not so much to add.

I would like to add one thing: many of internals are based on Open Source (samba for windows connectivity, cups for printer sharing, ghostscript for .ps handling, etc.) and as such you can `review' the code if you wish.

MS doesn't share source code voluntarily, it was basically forced to give access to it to government and select organizations. It also published some information on things like their network protocol, but the developers of samba called this piece `useless' as they have learnt more by reverse engineering already than Microsoft cared to publish.
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budster101
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Sep 24, 2005, 08:29 AM
 
to Captain Haddock.

Props your way man. That was an impressive list.
You should get partial credit for that paper!
     
ghporter
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Sep 24, 2005, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Actually it does belong. If you do NOT activate Windows in 30 days, guess what? Just have one blue screen where you have to reinstall WIndows. It will lock you out of the start up procedure until you CALL support and get a NEW activation key.

Fact. I was on hold with Microcrap for a friend who's computer I was attempting to fix... turns out he was like:

Activation whuh?
Key?
Whuh?

Last time I worked on his machine, or any Windows computer. They are restrictive to say the least.
This belongs, as well as using my example for reference if you like in the footnotes, as to why.
Your friend screwed up by not reading the stuff that came with the machine and/or Windows disc-or the numerous warnings that show up on an unregistered Windows machine as it runs. That's not MS, that's your friend. And unless you don't have any Internet connection at all, you can do the whole registration thing online fairly quickly. It really isn't a big deal once you pay attention to it.

It's only demeaning to folks who knew they should have done something about it when they got started, and when the time runs out they realize they goofed up.

Further, as an educator, I would still advise not to include value judgements in any point-for-point comparison. The paper should be about "OS X has this open source feature, whereas Windows has this equivalent closed source feature." Not how Microsoft got stupid and stopped trusting ANY customer.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Sep 24, 2005, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by badtz
proprietary:

- iTunes DRM

- iLife file formats

- iPod+iTunes+iTMS
iTunes Music Store, iLife and the iPod are not part of the operating system.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 24, 2005, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by loki74
Interesting.

Now that I analyze it (having read CptHaddock's list) OSX is indeed much more open, and Windows more proprietary.

I think the reason the Macintosh OS is regarded as proprietary is because the OS only runs on Macs. But other than this, it is a very open product.
Darwin is open. But the things that separate OS X from Darwin — the window server and application frameworks — are mostly closed.
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suta
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Sep 24, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
Your friend screwed up by not reading the stuff that came with the machine and/or Windows disc-or the numerous warnings that show up on an unregistered Windows machine as it runs. That's not MS, that's your friend. And unless you don't have any Internet connection at all, you can do the whole registration thing online fairly quickly. It really isn't a big deal once you pay attention to it.

It's only demeaning to folks who knew they should have done something about it when they got started, and when the time runs out they realize they goofed up.

Further, as an educator, I would still advise not to include value judgements in any point-for-point comparison. The paper should be about "OS X has this open source feature, whereas Windows has this equivalent closed source feature." Not how Microsoft got stupid and stopped trusting ANY customer.
My friend had the same problem with buster friend. He buy Windows SP1 and install to his computer (not branded), when finished it came with the warning that it should be activate within 30 days. One else problem came is when he upgrade the memory (with different brand) the Windows won’t startup so he stuck with his low memory. (not very user friendly at all)
     
mpancha
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Sep 24, 2005, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by suta
My friend had the same problem with buster friend. He buy Windows SP1 and install to his computer (not branded), when finished it came with the warning that it should be activate within 30 days. One else problem came is when he upgrade the memory (with different brand) the Windows won’t startup so he stuck with his low memory. (not very user friendly at all)
Maybe he bought bad memory.... the memory installed in the computer is irrelevant to the quality of the OS.

And to the first person with problems activating windows, your friend should have bought a legal copy of windows.
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ghporter
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Sep 24, 2005, 05:44 PM
 
Increasing memory will NOT trigger reregistration-it takes changing a lot more hardware than that. Suta, mpancha is right: your friend got a bad memory module-he should return it and get it replaced.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
budster101
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Sep 24, 2005, 11:31 PM
 
It was a legal copy, I had the license in my hand. They actually bought a family pack... when they didn't need to. As they already had a license that came with the computer.

mpancha: Your accusation was uncalled for and made from ignorance.
     
suta
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Sep 25, 2005, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha
Maybe he bought bad memory.... the memory installed in the computer is irrelevant to the quality of the OS.

And to the first person with problems activating windows, your friend should have bought a legal copy of windows.
it’s a legal copy and the memory module was new and tested on his other computer (linux) was ok. the memory module was the same type (DDR 400) only different brand. maybe it got something to do with "hardware collecting" that won’t allow to upgrade or must upgrade with the same type plus the same brand (just maybe).
     
mpancha
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Sep 25, 2005, 01:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by suta
it’s a legal copy and the memory module was new and tested on his other computer (linux) was ok. the memory module was the same type (DDR 400) only different brand. maybe it got something to do with "hardware collecting" that won’t allow to upgrade or must upgrade with the same type plus the same brand (just maybe).
what's hardware collecting?

I've mixed and matched RAM on PCs for years, and when I first got into building computers, always went for the cheapest parts because at the time, that's what I couuld afford. Whenever I had an issue, it always turned out to be because of subpar hardware.

Originally Posted by budster101
mpancha: Your accusation was uncalled for and made from ignorance.
My accusation was based on the fact that whenever a person comes across an issue with activation on Windows, more often than not (I would say 99.99999% but don't want to deal with the backlash from the anal retentive), its due to the lack of a legal copy of the OS.

In your post you said:
Originally Posted by budster101
Actually it does belong. If you do NOT activate Windows in 30 days, guess what? Just have one blue screen where you have to reinstall WIndows. It will lock you out of the start up procedure until you CALL support and get a NEW activation key.

Fact. I was on hold with Microcrap for a friend who's computer I was attempting to fix... turns out he was like:

Activation whuh?
Key?
Whuh?

Last time I worked on his machine, or any Windows computer. They are restrictive to say the least.
This belongs, as well as using my example for reference if you like in the footnotes, as to why.
Windows XP clearly says you need to activate within 30 days. The incessent annoying balloon reminds you every day. To not have noticed, and to have ended up suffering blue screens after 30 days is pretty ignorant. Microsoft makes the activation process beyond easy, you just have to click next a few times, and its done.

Apple will eventually get to forcing activations of its future OSes, they've already put in code on the Intel versions of OS X (a quick google search will reveal plenty of articles/forums discussing that topic). Activations is not a bad thing. It forces people to buy legal copies of software. Plenty of software companies have forced users to register software, take adobe for example. There's nothing wrong with trying to make sure people BUY sotware, and not pirate it.

As for the topic at hand CaptainHaddock's list is a good one, but obviously, I disagree with Activation of an OS being a bad thing.
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budster101
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Sep 25, 2005, 01:12 AM
 
They are idiots, like most windows users.

No, not every day for the reminder, and when you can't connect to the internet because Windows sucks so bad, then how do you activate it? Telepathy?
     
Tesseract
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Sep 25, 2005, 01:41 AM
 
So far, Apple hasn't required activation for its OSes since they only run on Apple hardware, and it's pretty hard to download an iMac from your favorite P2P service.

Maybe this will change with the x86 version.
     
svtcontour
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Sep 25, 2005, 02:45 AM
 
not sure why product activation is so hard or painful for people. I purchased XP for both my laptop an desktop. It took all of about 25 seconds to do it.

On my desktop I've changed video cards, scsi cards, added ram, drives, TV tuner card..changed soundcard..etc. and have not been nagged or asked to call in or anything. I believe if you change your board a number of times, you may need to call but by the time that happens, who the hell is running XP anyway. It will be vista by then

Most people just want to have a reason to dislike microsoft. What would you people do for fun if they were not around? Who else would you whine about?

PS. I find apple's registration screen when the install is nearly done more annoying. Way too much info to fill out. Seems like its 4x the info MS wants you to fill out. I know you can also skip that but why should it be annoying enough to have to skip?
     
alphasubzero949
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Sep 25, 2005, 05:57 AM
 
Activation schemes make computer users out to be criminals as if they are already found guilty of being potential software pirates. All it does is hurt the normal consumer.

I personally find activation requirements insulting, as I have to go out of my way to prove that I didn't steal a piece of software. If I have to ever reinstall my system and restore all of my apps due to some catastrophic event? Am I going to have to go through calling each and every vendor to prove that I didn't pirate the damn things? How is that convenient to the end user?

If HDCP does come to light in Leopard and Vista, as a recent Ars Technica article suggested, perhaps we'll also be told what kind of computer configurations to have or else.

If software developers want to find out why their software is being pirated? They should step back and look at how much they're charging. Ever wonder why Photoshop, Flash, Dreamweaver, MS Office, Windows, FCP, etc. are usually the most pirated programs? What do they have in common? They're all overpriced.

Look at what Apple has done with iTMS. Price something that consumers are willing to pay, and they'll buy. The moment that the prices go back up if the music industry gets their way is the moment that P2P will flourish once again like the good old days of Napster.

Those who think that they can curb piracy 100% with activation schemes are only fooling themselves. There will always be piracy, and software activation will always be cracked. Apple's DRM scheme for OSXi being no exception.

I personally would not drop the $700 required to buy the most recent version of Photoshop for a few bug fixes when 7.0.x suits me well. If the pricing were more reasonable I would consider it. Or if heaven forbid a version of OS X breaks PS 7 I'll just resort to using GIMP.app since it does the basics fairly well.

Those who cry "Don't like it, don't buy it" or "What is wrong with activation?"...I don't understand you people, really.

As far as Windows users being idiots, the vast majority of them are. Only a handful know what they're doing, and even then, they still run into problems (or they just don't want to admit to doing so in their fanboyish nature).

I hijacked enough; back to your regularly scheduled topic.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 07:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
iTunes Music Store, iLife and the iPod are not part of the operating system.
iTunes is. In the same way Windows MediaPlayer is part of Windows. Yes, there are versions without it in Europe, but in the same spirit iTunes belongs to OS X (it's included anyways).
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ghporter
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by alphasubzero949
Activation schemes make computer users out to be criminals as if they are already found guilty of being potential software pirates. All it does is hurt the normal consumer.

I personally find activation requirements insulting, as I have to go out of my way to prove that I didn't steal a piece of software. If I have to ever reinstall my system and restore all of my apps due to some catastrophic event? Am I going to have to go through calling each and every vendor to prove that I didn't pirate the damn things? How is that convenient to the end user?
This IS on topic, because it's something that Windows does (and it is exceptionally "closed") but OS X does not do.

Your attitude about activation/registration is not unique, and it's pretty much because of the way Microsoft painted the issue. If they'd said "you can try this for a little while, and if you like it you have to activate it, otherwise it will stop completely" that would have had a real impact-one that sounds much more "shareware-like." Instead they said "since so many people pirate our OS, we're going to make you do this little thing to get what you paid for," and that prejudiced the whole issue. Much of the management of MS is dumb with a capital "duh," and this is a golden example of that.

There are benefits to reducing piracy of operating systems, not the least of which is helping to concentrate support on legitimate users. Unfortunately, Microsoft's telephone support has apparently been uniformly poor to bad, though if you're persistent, their online support will help you out.

Note that only programs and OSs that are expensive feature activation and/or registration; this indicates that they really are interested in the high-piracy-potential products. But not one company that locks their commercial software has done an even half-hearted job of selling this as something that's good for the user.

On the flip side, I haven't seen a Windows activation online take more than a few seconds, and as long as you don't change your hardware radically, it shouldn't happen again.

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suta
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by alphasubzero949
Activation schemes make computer users out to be criminals as if they are already found guilty of being potential software pirates. All it does is hurt the normal consumer.

I personally find activation requirements insulting, as I have to go out of my way to prove that I didn't steal a piece of software. If I have to ever reinstall my system and restore all of my apps due to some catastrophic event? Am I going to have to go through calling each and every vendor to prove that I didn't pirate the damn things? How is that convenient to the end user?

If HDCP does come to light in Leopard and Vista, as a recent Ars Technica article suggested, perhaps we'll also be told what kind of computer configurations to have or else.

If software developers want to find out why their software is being pirated? They should step back and look at how much they're charging. Ever wonder why Photoshop, Flash, Dreamweaver, MS Office, Windows, FCP, etc. are usually the most pirated programs? What do they have in common? They're all overpriced.

Look at what Apple has done with iTMS. Price something that consumers are willing to pay, and they'll buy. The moment that the prices go back up if the music industry gets their way is the moment that P2P will flourish once again like the good old days of Napster.

Those who think that they can curb piracy 100% with activation schemes are only fooling themselves. There will always be piracy, and software activation will always be cracked. Apple's DRM scheme for OSXi being no exception.

I personally would not drop the $700 required to buy the most recent version of Photoshop for a few bug fixes when 7.0.x suits me well. If the pricing were more reasonable I would consider it. Or if heaven forbid a version of OS X breaks PS 7 I'll just resort to using GIMP.app since it does the basics fairly well.

Those who cry "Don't like it, don't buy it" or "What is wrong with activation?"...I don't understand you people, really.

As far as Windows users being idiots, the vast majority of them are. Only a handful know what they're doing, and even then, they still run into problems (or they just don't want to admit to doing so in their fanboyish nature).

I hijacked enough; back to your regularly scheduled topic.


i agree with your opinion.


If software developers want to find out why their software is being pirated? They should step back and look at how much they're charging. Ever wonder why Photoshop, Flash, Dreamweaver, MS Office, Windows, FCP, etc. are usually the most pirated programs? What do they have in common? They're all overpriced.
specially this.

There will always be piracy, and software activation will always be cracked.
and this is the results that happen in the real world.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by alphasubzero949
If software developers want to find out why their software is being pirated? They should step back and look at how much they're charging. Ever wonder why Photoshop, Flash, Dreamweaver, MS Office, Windows, FCP, etc. are usually the most pirated programs? What do they have in common? They're all overpriced.
People pirate software because they can get away with it. It doesn't matter whether the software costs $5 or $500.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
People pirate software because they can get away with it. It doesn't matter whether the software costs $5 or $500.
I disagree, I know plenty of people who willingly pay for the apps they use as long as they are reasonably priced but who refuse to shell out for apps they consider overpriced; the likes of the latest Creative Suite being a good example.
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alphasubzero949
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Sep 25, 2005, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
People pirate software because they can get away with it. It doesn't matter whether the software costs $5 or $500.
That's pure BS.

Take Cocktail for instance. The developer charges $15 for spoonfeeding your BSD subsystem back to you that another app like CLIX can do for free with little overhead.

Do you know anyone who pirates Cocktail? When they could download OnyX? Or TinkerTool? Or Tiger Tamer? If you knew that both OnyX and Cocktail are sloppily written and broadcast your admin passwords in the clear using echo, would you slap down any kind of money when there are other alternatives?

But let's say that you don't know anything about the alternatives.

Back to Cocktail...it was free at one point, as most of us know. If someone didn't know any better about the alternatives, do you really think they were going to shell out $15 for a program that was previously free? I'm willing to bet that they would have pirated it. Not because they can get away with it, but more than likely from being pissed off about the bait and switch, with no warning until a dialog popped up after having upgraded from a free version (which is now moot unless you're still running older builds of OS X).

And here's another thing to consider about those who pirate the heavyweights. Ask yourself what percentage of those users know anything about the OSS alternatives, realizing that those of us on this board are fairly proficient? Consider the environment in which these users work in. Perhaps the environment demands these heavyweights in order to get work done. Or maybe they're a "standard." Step back and think about your typical Windows user sharing serials then ask yourself that question. Remember what I said about the users being idiots.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock
Here are some comparisons:
A few of these I don't really agree with.

✓ OS X users the open standard OpenGL for video rendering.
☓ Windows uses its own proprietary DirectX for video.
You can use opengl on windows just as easily as os x if you want to avoid directx.

✓ Apple gives all users and developers its Xcode develoment tools for free.
☓ Microsoft charges hefty prices for its development tools.
Xcode is no more open than visual studio, free does not mean open.
If you don't mind using third party ides microsoft provide a c++ compiler and .net sdk for free. Gcc and most of the popular open source languages also have windows as well as os x ports.

✓ The default music format for iTunes is AAC, part of the open Mpeg-4 specification.
☓ Microsoft prefers its proprietary WMA format.
What about alac? Why didn't apple chose one of the many open lossless codecs?
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by stinch
You can use opengl on windows just as easily as os x if you want to avoid directx.
Yes, but it isn't the primary graphics API for platform. Apple actually encourages the use of OpenGL, while Microsoft encourages the use of DirectX.

Originally Posted by stinch
Xcode is no more open than visual studio, free does not mean open.
Let's see…Xcode's compilers? Open. Xcode's debuggers? Open. Xcode's interface? Not open.

Two out of three ain't bad.

Originally Posted by stinch
If you don't mind using third party ides microsoft provide a c++ compiler and .net sdk for free. Gcc and most of the popular open source languages also have windows as well as os x ports.
Yes, but they are not provided with the OS. The question is not about whether one can put open-source software on the system; it's about whether the system encourages and supports open software and standards. Microsoft provides proprietary tools. Apple provides mostly open-source tools.
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Brass
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:05 PM
 
One of the sessions at last year's WWDC included a bit on how much Apple is deliberately using open technologies in preference to proprietary onces as much as possible. The list of open technologies included in the OS (or bundled with it) was very very long and quite impressive. A pity I don't have it here, or I'd post it.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:06 PM
 
Oh, here's another example...

LDAP: open
ActiveDirectory: ???
     
Brass
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:10 PM
 
Mac OS X Password encryption: Open
Windows Password encryption: Closed

For those unfamiliar with how this works, you might think that having open password encryption is a bad thing. Well, it is not a bad thing, as the encryption algorithm is one-way only... ie, you cannot decrypt the password.

Having a closed password encryption system, makes it very difficult to integrate with other systems. hence all the problems with using SAMBA on unix with windows clients. There are a couple of work arounds to the problem, but none are ideal.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They are idiots, like most windows users.

No, not every day for the reminder, and when you can't connect to the internet because Windows sucks so bad, then how do you activate it? Telepathy?

Close. It's called a telephone. If you cannot connect to the internet you call in and give them your key, then they'll give you the telephone activation code.

It really isn't a big deal. You'll have the same 'headaches' of Apple ever decides to protect their OS from piracy with activation.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid
Close. It's called a telephone. If you cannot connect to the internet you call in and give them your key, then they'll give you the telephone activation code.

It really isn't a big deal. You'll have the same 'headaches' of Apple ever decides to protect their OS from piracy with activation.

thank you!

As for budster's comment about not being able to activate if you can't get on the internet.... internet connectivity issues aren't really caused by the OS.

I fail to see how some people think its an insult to have to activate your software. Its about as insulting as having to have the old lady at the exit doors of Sam's Club check your cart and receipt before allowing you to leave the building. They're simply attempting to prevent theft, nothing more than that. Apple is getting close to doing so themselves, I can't wait to see the cheers for Apple implementing an activation system once it comes to play.
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Sep 25, 2005, 09:44 PM
 
Again, they had no clue as to what they were doing... they let it lapse, not me, so I went in and used the telephone as was so sarcastically suggested and waited for over 45 minutes to activate windows.

It's a problem with many windows users as many are idiots.
     
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Sep 25, 2005, 10:01 PM
 
Bud, many Windows users are indeed idiots, but so are quite a few Mac users. And Microsoft is idiotic for hiring people with few people skills to handle what has to be one of the most "computer use-challenged" segments of their business: telephone activation. It should take no more than 5-10 minutes to activate Windows XP once you get through, and they're supposed to have hundreds of phone lines available for this sort of thing. They messed you over, as did your friend who you were trying to help. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished...and you got punished by MS for trying to help your none-too-bright friend. Sorry about that, but it was a combination of PEOPLE, not the Windows Activation system that did it.

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Sep 25, 2005, 10:17 PM
 
Agreed.
     
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Sep 26, 2005, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
Bud, many Windows users are indeed idiots, but so are quite a few Mac users.

Sorry about that, but it was a combination of PEOPLE, not the Windows Activation system that did it.
Somewhat agreed... I always tell my clients/colleagues/friends, its very rare that a computer problem was caused by the OS itself (Apple or Microsoft)... in my experience its always been user error in some way shape or form.

I agree it was a combination of People that was the problem.

As for microsoft hiring subpar talent to do their support, that is true of every company out there, even Apple. I used to use the Apple support line for help with issues with my ibook. Once I found a nearby Apple store I resort to the Genius bar. Not because they are geniuses, but because once they see that they can't fix it, they send it in for repair. *disclaimer - that's not to say there aren't a few geniuses at the genius bar, but I've only come across 1 so far in the dozen or so visits to genius bars in a total of 4 differnt Apple stores*

budster101 >> I didn't think I would have to, but sorry if I'm coming off as being sarcastic. I'm getting busier with a business I just started, and the few spare minutes I have to jump onto the macnn forums are just that, few... so I tend to go for the straight to the point method, rather than the buttered up approach. No hard feelings.
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Sep 26, 2005, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha
I always tell my clients/colleagues/friends, its very rare that a computer problem was caused by the OS itself (Apple or Microsoft)... in my experience its always been user error in some way shape or form.
Technically, that is true. However, taking a broader view of the situation...

The operating system should be constructed in such a way that it is very difficult to make bad mistakes. The system should be easy to use and the consequences of the users actions should always be clear. The user should not be required to take any action to keep their system running normally, where it can be avoided.

This is always a matter of opinion, but in my opinion, Mac OS X is far easier to use, and less prone to user error. In this regard, many of the user errors in Windows are in fact at least paritially MS's fault, for not designing the system to be easier to use.

Activation, in principle, has some merit in making MS propsperous. However, it has NO direct benefit for the user. The terribly poor design of the activation system is that a system that is running smoothly will stop running at all, without the user actually doing anything at all (apart from ignoring some warnings).

Activation should be done in such a way that this does not happen. There are several options for this, including requiring it to be done BEFORE the system will run normally, ie, at first boot/install time. Of course this doesn't suit MS' marketting.
     
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Sep 28, 2005, 03:51 AM
 
People keep contesting the activation key 'feature' of Windows with the point "Apple will do this one day". Until Apple ship an OS with activation, please leave these comments in the world of hypothesis.
     
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Sep 28, 2005, 06:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brass
Activation should be done in such a way that this does not happen. There are several options for this, including requiring it to be done BEFORE the system will run normally, ie, at first boot/install time. Of course this doesn't suit MS' marketting.
I agree that that is how it should be done, however people like to complain. Wether Microsoft requires activation within the first 30 days of use, or before Windows can even be used is irrelevant. Its the big bad Microsoft machine requiring it, it will always be seen as evil. That's the world we live in.


Originally Posted by ShotGunEd
People keep contesting the activation key 'feature' of Windows with the point "Apple will do this one day". Until Apple ship an OS with activation, please leave these comments in the world of hypothesis.
I am one of "People" who keep contesting the feature with the point you mentioned. It is my hypothesis, and this is a forum. Where hypotheses, last I checked, were allowed to be shared amongst others.

I'd also like to point out that I don't see activation as a "feature"... its not a bonus to the OS... its a necessity with the wide user base, and the fact that since they are so widespread, Microsoft products are pirated. Its their effort to prevent it. Nothing wrong with preventing your investment. Activation is nothing more than a required step to activate your copy of Windows. You're given 30 days to do so. if you had trouble activating your copy, and you didn't find time in 30 days to get help, there's not much else I can offer to help out... there wwere 30 days to get it sorted out after all.
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Sep 28, 2005, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha
I am one of "People" who keep contesting the feature with the point you mentioned. It is my hypothesis, and this is a forum. Where hypotheses, last I checked, were allowed to be shared amongst others.
You can share it, but that doesn't make it a valid argument.

Originally Posted by mpancha
I'd also like to point out that I don't see activation as a "feature"... its not a bonus to the OS... its a necessity with the wide user base, and the fact that since they are so widespread, Microsoft products are pirated. Its their effort to prevent it. Nothing wrong with preventing your investment.
In this case, there is: You are antagonizing your normal customers. More than that, Microsoft's activation scheme fails to stop actual pirates from taking their software without paying for it. So all they are doing is making life difficult for their honest customers and treating them like criminals.

My dad ran into this when he was trying to transfer a copy of Windows XP from his old computer to his new one. With Microsoft's draconian activation rules, he couldn't do it in the several hours before he needed to get out of town, so the person he wanted to give the computer to was left with nothing for two weeks. He would have had an easier time being dishonest in this situation than he did being honest, thanks to Microsoft's dumbass business practices.

Originally Posted by mpancha
Activation is nothing more than a required step to activate your copy of Windows. You're given 30 days to do so. if you had trouble activating your copy, and you didn't find time in 30 days to get help, there's not much else I can offer to help out... there wwere 30 days to get it sorted out after all.
I shouldn't have to "get it sorted out" once I've bought the software. I paid for it; let me use it.
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olePigeon
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Sep 28, 2005, 01:40 PM
 
Here're a few items to add to your list:

+ You can use whatever web browser you want. You can completely remove Safari and set FireFox or Opera, or whatever you want as the default web browser.
- Internet Explorer is Windows. You can't get rid of it. Period. You will always have Internet Explorer on your Windows PC. Which means, if there's a security concern or feature you don't like with Internet Explorer, you can't just simply remove it and use a different vendor's product.

+ You can use whatever video technology you want. While Apple has made it more difficult to remove it in recent years, it's still not integrated into the OS. If there actually were any competing technologies to QuickTime, you can use them.
- Windows Media Player is Windows. You can't get rid of it. Period. You will always have Windows Media Player on your Windows PC. Which means, if there's a security concern or feature you don't like with Windows Media Player, you can't just simply remove it and use a different vendor's product.


- (insert Microsoft product name here) is Windows. You can't get rid of it. Period. You will always have (insert Microsoft product name here) on your Windows PC. Which means, if there's a security concern or feature you don't like with (insert Microsoft product name here), you can't just simply remove it and use a different vendor's product.

The above formula, by the way, is why they were convicted in federal court (though, unfortunately, absolutely nothing resulted from the conviction.)
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mpancha
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Sep 28, 2005, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
You can share it, but that doesn't make it a valid argument.
I share the same feeling with the argument that it is antagonizing to its customers. Its as antagonizing as Sam's Club checking your shopping cart when you just paid for your goods.

Originally Posted by Chuckit
My dad ran into this when he was trying to transfer a copy of Windows XP from his old computer to his new one. With Microsoft's draconian activation rules, he couldn't do it in the several hours before he needed to get out of town, so the person he wanted to give the computer to was left with nothing for two weeks. He would have had an easier time being dishonest in this situation than he did being honest, thanks to Microsoft's dumbass business practices.
I've had to transfer my copy of windows to different machines as well, it took me just a few seconds to hit activate and next.

Originally Posted by ChuckIt
I shouldn't have to "get it sorted out" once I've bought the software. I paid for it; let me use it.
My sentiments exactly regarding my first iBook, I shouldn't have had to ship it back right away, but I did... i bought the hardware, I should have been able to use it. Same goes for my first Airport Express, I shouldn't have had to drive back to the Apple Store to exchange it for a working one.

In life you stumble across problems... I'm sure at some point in your life you had a car that worked fine on the way to a destination, but wouldn't start on the way back. But somehow, you managed to "get it sorted out" then.

You along with the others who see Activation as a bad thing aren't going to agree with me. I by no means agree with the view that it is antagonistic, complicated, so on.... but you're entitled to your opinoin. And in your own words "You can share it, but that doesn't make it a valid argument."
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Sep 28, 2005, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
Here're a few items to add to your list:

+ You can use whatever web browser you want. You can completely remove Safari and set FireFox or Opera, or whatever you want as the default web browser.
- Internet Explorer is Windows. You can't get rid of it. Period. You will always have Internet Explorer on your Windows PC. Which means, if there's a security concern or feature you don't like with Internet Explorer, you can't just simply remove it and use a different vendor's product.

+ You can use whatever video technology you want. While Apple has made it more difficult to remove it in recent years, it's still not integrated into the OS. If there actually were any competing technologies to QuickTime, you can use them.
- Windows Media Player is Windows. You can't get rid of it. Period. You will always have Windows Media Player on your Windows PC. Which means, if there's a security concern or feature you don't like with Windows Media Player, you can't just simply remove it and use a different vendor's product.
Both WebKit and QuickTime are core system components. You can delete the front-end apps, but the underlying functionality will still be there unless you're hacking the system. You can use QuickTime Player on Windows just as much as you can use Windows Media Player on Mac. I'm not sure these are quite valid comparisons.
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mpancha
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Sep 28, 2005, 09:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Both WebKit and QuickTime are core system components. You can delete the front-end apps, but the underlying functionality will still be there unless you're hacking the system. You can use QuickTime Player on Windows just as much as you can use Windows Media Player on Mac. I'm not sure these are quite valid comparisons.
Agreed.
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Sep 29, 2005, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha
I share the same feeling with the argument that it is antagonizing to its customers. Its as antagonizing as Sam's Club checking your shopping cart when you just paid for your goods.
I don't like this either. I already paid, let me go. Catch shoplifters in the aisles.


Originally Posted by mpancha
I've had to transfer my copy of windows to different machines as well, it took me just a few seconds to hit activate and next.
Apology not accepted.

Originally Posted by mpancha
My sentiments exactly regarding my first iBook, I shouldn't have had to ship it back right away, but I did... i bought the hardware, I should have been able to use it. Same goes for my first Airport Express, I shouldn't have had to drive back to the Apple Store to exchange it for a working one.
Did they make you send in a proof of purchase with the iBook? No.

Originally Posted by mpancha
In life you stumble across problems... I'm sure at some point in your life you had a car that worked fine on the way to a destination, but wouldn't start on the way back. But somehow, you managed to "get it sorted out" then.
You act like product activation is a necessary thing, and it isn't. Especially the invasive, "call in to the Mothership to get your secret number" variety MS has been using with XP. Its not stopping piracy, thats all there is to it.

Originally Posted by mpancha
You along with the others who see Activation as a bad thing aren't going to agree with me. I by no means agree with the view that it is antagonistic, complicated, so on.... but you're entitled to your opinoin. And in your own words "You can share it, but that doesn't make it a valid argument."
You are apologizing for anti-consumer behavior. Its no big deal, people here do it all the time for stuff like Apple's crazy markups. However, there have been multiple cases presented that clearly show XP (And office?) activation is both antagonistic and complicated. You're using words out of context, that only serve to remind that you have no argument.
     
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Sep 29, 2005, 05:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpancha
I am one of "People" who keep contesting the feature with the point you mentioned. It is my hypothesis, and this is a forum. Where hypotheses, last I checked, were allowed to be shared amongst others.
I wasn't contesting your(or whoever's) hyothesis, rather challenging the wording. "Apple will do this one day" is not a sound argument. "Apple may do this one day" is much better, non-inflamatory to us mac-fan-boys and not a complete falsehood. Until Apple ship an OS that requires activation then lets keep it in the realm of possibility, instead of making it definite.

Originally Posted by mpancha
I'd also like to point out that I don't see activation as a "feature"... its not a bonus to the OS... its a necessity with the wide user base, and the fact that since they are so widespread, Microsoft products are pirated. Its their effort to prevent it. Nothing wrong with preventing your investment. Activation is nothing more than a required step to activate your copy of Windows. You're given 30 days to do so. if you had trouble activating your copy, and you didn't find time in 30 days to get help, there's not much else I can offer to help out... there wwere 30 days to get it sorted out after all.
Nor do I, I was being ironic. However its not a necessity either.

I don't own a PC or a copy of WindowsXP so this has never affected me and likely never will.
     
 
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