Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > The Easily Replaceable Thread

The Easily Replaceable Thread
Thread Tools
MacNNFamous
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 22, 2023, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Everything you write is straight out of the Q-Anon playbook, ca. 2021, including the "Soros"/"Rothschild"-Zionist conspiracy.

The mechanism used to achieve the goal you describe has been variably ascribed to the virus itself, or the supposedly deadly mass vaccination designed to eradicate a large portion of the population (and back to the virus itself, as you suggest, once it became clear that all the vaccinated did not die in September of 2021, as predicted).

Some Q-Anon lore codifies what you describe as the "Deagel-Plan" to reduce the population of the Northern hemisphere by 25%. Or the entire world population to 500 million. Depending on who's ranting, and whether they're quoting some "drop" or the Georgia Guidestones.

The only element missing from your train of thought is the clearly defined victims and beneficiaries - you've already got the culprits, even if you claim that "Soros" means "old white man with money" and not "Jewish bankers" and "Zionist conspiracy", but for the full Deep End™, you need to delineate whom they are trying to obliterate.

In the 14th century, it was Christians.

Today, it's everybody, presumably, who isn't part of the WEF orchestrating the Great Reset and the New World Order (starting in 202…5, I believe, is the current prediction).
yeah see that's where I disagree with the anti-vax nuts and fall more in line with Bill Burr on the Anti-vaxxers.. They have it all wrong. We get the motive; too many people, right?

But you don't kill the vaccinated people, it makes no sense, those are the majority of the educated/skilled workforce that continue to advance humanity in sciences, technology, engineering, etc.

What I am suggesting would do the opposite. The group that has been anti-mask, anti vaccine, and so far successful in staying alive? That group? Largely uneducated, threatened by education/science to the point where they just do the opposite of what experts suggest, and generally.... basic labor. Factory workers. Tradespeople. Retail. Etc. That entire workforce is basically replaceable, it's easy to get more labor. So yeah, eliminate a good chunk of people, they'd go for the unskilled laborers vs the educated/useful. Trades would suffer, but that can be easily learned, it's not rocket appliances.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
basic labor. Factory workers. Tradespeople. Retail. Etc. That entire workforce is basically replaceable, it's easy to get more labor.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 04:49 PM
 
Snicker all you want. Still true. Not very hard to frame a building, run pex, run wiring, etc. A lot of those jobs are fairly easy, just physically demanding.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 05:04 PM
 
So, fairly easy except for the hard work part.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 05:33 PM
 
"I don't understand it so it must be easy."



Rob arrived at "I know everything" at the age of 13 and never left.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 05:33 PM
 
Be careful. As soon as you think you can get rid of telephone sanitizers, along comes a nasty virus and wipes out the planet... oh wai

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrincham
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Snicker all you want. Still true. Not very hard to frame a building, run pex, run wiring, etc. A lot of those jobs are fairly easy, just physically demanding.
For something that's so easily replaceable, companies are sure having a hard time finding replacements.



From here: https://www.uschamber.com/workforce/...ted-industries

To further understand shifts in the labor force, it is interesting to look at labor force participation across different industries. Some have a shortage of labor, while others have a surplus of workers.
For example, durable goods manufacturing, wholesale and retail trade, and education and health services have a labor shortage—these industries have more unfilled job openings than unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry. Even if every unemployed person with experience in the durable goods manufacturing industry were employed, the industry would fill roughly a third of the vacant jobs.
Conversely, in the transportation, construction, and mining industries, there is a labor surplus. There are more unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry than there are open jobs.
The manufacturing industry faced a major setback after losing roughly 1.4 million jobs at the onset of the pandemic. Since then, the industry has struggled to hire entry level and skilled workers alike.
Also here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...rikes-economy/

Although employers across the economy say they’re struggling to find and keep workers, labor shortages are most pronounced in retail (where roughly 70 percent of job openings remain unfilled), manufacturing (about 55 percent) and leisure and hospitality (45 percent), according to a U.S. Chamber of Commerce analysis of Labor Department data.
The answer, of course, is population reduction immigration.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 23, 2023, 08:09 PM
 
It's hard work but EASILY TRAINED/REPLACED.... Doesn't take long to know how to do that stuff.

Meanwhile to work in genetics for life extension or physics degree for fusion reactors, probably 4-8 years of school?

Plus, think how many useless anti-vaxxers are just working some shitty retail job, or shitty factory job, both of which will be replaced with automation pretty soon if not already.

Edit: They're having a hard time finding those workers because Nobody Wants to Work Anymore (aka they aren't paying high enough wages and want to pretend it's still 2003). Immigration would solve it, but KEEP WAGES LOW. Immigrants have always been lowering wages; no immigration, demand goes up while supply stays the same, wages go up. Pretty simple. This is derailing tho.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
It's hard work but EASILY TRAINED/REPLACED.... Doesn't take long to know how to do that stuff.
Very often the “unskilled” in “unskilled labor” is a misnomer. E. g. I am smarter than most welders, but I don’t think I’d be a very good welder. Do you have to be an excellent welder for all welding jobs? No, but for some you do. Plus, many jobs involve more qualifications than meets the eye, e. g. when you take X-rays of patients (I’m deliberately avoiding naming the qualification, because there is more than one).
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Meanwhile to work in genetics for life extension or physics degree for fusion reactors, probably 4-8 years of school?
Or longer. But that doesn’t make them (I should probably say us, because I definitely belong to this category) better or more valuable than others whose gifts lie elsewhere.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Plus, think how many useless anti-vaxxers are just working some shitty retail job, or shitty factory job, both of which will be replaced with automation pretty soon if not already.
Maybe their overall shittiness is one of the reasons they glom onto anyone who gives them hope and makes them feel better of themselves. And hearing/feeling attitudes from people from our strata of life reinforces their beliefs that people like us are selfish buttholes who aren’t interested in them (rightly or wrongly).
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Edit: They're having a hard time finding those workers because Nobody Wants to Work Anymore (aka they aren't paying high enough wages and want to pretend it's still 2003). Immigration would solve it, but KEEP WAGES LOW. Immigrants have always been lowering wages; no immigration, demand goes up while supply stays the same, wages go up. Pretty simple. This is derailing tho.
Pitching immigrants against the low end of the labor market also seems like a talking point. Many legal immigrants are exceptionally qualified (I’m thinking of people who enter the US with a H1B visa). They are not competing with people flipping burgers at McDonalds.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 09:45 AM
 
You guys are just slamming your heads against a wall with him - he's chosen his narratives and he listens to the sources that tell him what he wants to hear.

He's also apparently never worked with an apprentice vs. a craftsman with 8+ years of experience.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
He's also apparently never worked with an apprentice vs. a craftsman with 8+ years of experience.
A buddy of mine from uni (who should have gotten at least a MSc in physics, not sure if he did a PhD afterwards) interned for German bike frame maker Nicolai. They are specialized in hand-crafted aluminum frames. Quality stuff. Not the lightest, but they frames are top shelf. According to him the most important guy was the welder — it takes a lot of experience making welds, making sure that you neither weld too slowly (=> too much heat, you could put weak points or holes in the tubes) or too quickly (=> bad welds). At uni we had a fabrication lab for specialized ultra-high vacuum equipment. Same thing, the welder was the guy. He was a bit quirky and sometimes hard to deal with. But you wouldn’t want to piss him off. Welding thin steel into baffles so that you can manipulate samples in an ultra-high vacuum is really hard. If you lose vacuum, you lose (at least) 2 weeks in many experiments, sometimes more. (You have to identify the leak first, then it often takes ~2 weeks to attain ultra-high vacuum again.)

Maybe these are specialized cases, but I think skilled craftspeople are talented in ways that cannot be measured by IQ or other markers of intelligence.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 09:42 PM
 
You guys are cherry picking super specialized shit in an effort to disprove my generalization, which is true.

MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.

I love craftsman, and dabble in damn near everything, so I can appreciate someone good at any task. That said..... majority of maga folk are intimidated by anyone with an education, and compensate by acting anti-education, anti-science, "I didn't need a degree to get what I got", bla bla bla.

But please go ahead and cherry pick that one fucking guy you know who stamps sheet metal all day but is politically progressive, that means what I'm saying holds no water at all.

Most
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Pitching immigrants against the low end of the labor market also seems like a talking point. Many legal immigrants are exceptionally qualified (I’m thinking of people who enter the US with a H1B visa). They are not competing with people flipping burgers at McDonalds.
Still increases supply.... which lowers wages.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 10:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Still increases supply.... which lowers wages.
You are forgetting that

- immigrants found businesses at a higher rate,
- demand increases as well and
- you have negative effects of people not doing the jobs.

If you cut off H1B visas, the American economy would grow more slowly. Among the companies hit the most you have e. g. FAANG, and a slower growing Apple and Google means an app economy that grows more slowly, too. Many bits of app development is IMHO a new form of blue collar work, one that rewards craftsmanship and an eye towards the practical. Yes, certain aspects of programming really need a lot of brain power (“tool builders” come to mind), but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Overall, immigration is a huge net positive for society. I'm a German expat living in Japan. Germany has had tons of immigration over my lifetime. Just from 2014ish up until now, the country has taken up >1 million refugees on two occasions. And if I have counted correctly, it was the fourth or fifth mass immigration event in my lifetime (depends a little on how you count). On average, there are more people living in Germany that haven't been born there than people living in the US who have been born abroad. The German economy is doing very well, and I think immigration is a major reason why.

Compare and contrast that to Japan with about <2 % of the population not being Japanese. The Japanese economy still hasn't recovered from the burst of the bubble at the end of the 1980s. Most companies have become stagnant. And there is little sustained forward-looking investment. Toshiba had to sell its profitable chip business to cover up losses in their atomic energy branch.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 24, 2023, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.
Maybe my different background shows here, but in Germany you have to go to school to learn a trade. I'm not allowed to be a plumber or electrician in Germany, because I have not graduated from a trade/vocational school. If you want to own your company in a trade and educate others, you need to do another 2–3 years at trade school to get a Meister (translates to master, but this isn't a master's degree). Recent changes in law made it equivalent to a bachelor degree.

I think it also underestimates the “willingness to do hard work/do something difficult” aspect. I'm an expat. A lot of people I talk to back home told me that they could never picture themselves doing what I did. Starting from scratch with few or no connections is mentally hard. Maybe you have to learn a completely new language. You have to be very determined. Do you know that up until you get used to a language, it is not uncommon that your head literally hurts? This has nothing to do with intelligence, you need a certain type of resilience. Point is that not all aspects that are important to success are measured by education, IQ or some such.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I love craftsman, and dabble in damn near everything, so I can appreciate someone good at any task. That said..... majority of maga folk are intimidated by anyone with an education, and compensate by acting anti-education, anti-science, "I didn't need a degree to get what I got", bla bla bla.
I do have anti-education people in my family. On one of our last phone calls my grandmother recently told me that I have never really worked a day in my life, because I never “worked with my hands”. (That isn't true, but who cares.) My dad had to hear this non-sense for as long as he knew her. My mom was denied a higher education, because “she didn't need it.”

Still, one thing I know many less smart people can pick up on is disdain or a lack of respect from people who are objectively smarter than they are. Very occasionally I get that too. I come across as pretty relaxed and relatable. I don't use my degree outside of work (unless asked). In Japan that usually means people think I got here as an English teacher, which is essentially a close-to-minimum wage job on an hourly basis. Not good. So I often get treated as an idiot. They think I cannot really speak and understand Japanese even I initiate communication in correct Japanese (with an accent, of course). I don't want to follow their example. You also won't change anyone's mind this way.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 25, 2023, 03:51 PM
 
I don't know why you guys are bothering to engage - he spends all day on Reddit or some other toxic online space and gets bombarded with all sorts of messaging to reinforce his shitty views. He's not here to have a discussion, learning something new, or broaden his perspective, he's here to be a little whiny shit and complain about how he's such an oppressed, attacked victim.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 25, 2023, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
You guys are cherry picking super specialized shit in an effort to disprove my generalization, which is true.

MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.
Well, I like that you got sidetracked to how easy it must be to find help in the construction industry, since here's what I quoted about the construction industry, SPECIFICALLY:

Conversely, in the transportation, construction, and mining industries, there is a labor surplus. There are more unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry than there are open jobs.
That's not where the shortage is.

And the shortage also isn't just "fucking hippie millenials just don't want to work anymore".

It's part "people died of Covid" (which would account for about 5% of the people who've left the workforce over the past two years),

part "people retired early after being unable to work in their job", and

part "Covid exacerbated already shitty work conditions and we're not doing this anymore for the pay", and

part "Tr*mp fucking closed the borders", and

part "Tr*mp so desperately fucked up Covid response that a LOT of immigrants realised they'd be a lot better off at home than in the US".
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 25, 2023, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I don't know why you guys are bothering to engage - he spends all day on Reddit or some other toxic online space and gets bombarded with all sorts of messaging to reinforce his shitty views. He's not here to have a discussion, learning something new, or broaden his perspective, he's here to be a little whiny shit and complain about how he's such an oppressed, attacked victim.
Right now, I don't see him playing the victim. He was floating a narrative that is completely lifted from old Nazi and new Q-Anon storybooks, and we took him up on it.

On second thought, that doesn't sound any better.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 1, 2023, 03:54 PM
 
I’ve “thrown CAT5”, run PVC pipe, mixed and poured concrete, built bits of framing, and done lots of other “easily trained” stuff. Yeah, “easily trained” when the trainee is also technically adept (I taught electronics at the college level for half of my Air Force career). But what about Joe Schlep, who had to be reminded about tying his shoes and to always flush?

Further, most of those tasks I’ve done are further inspected by either a state or local inspector, or the IT guys who will scathingly detail every little goof in your CAT5 wiring. Joe Schlep may “get the job done,” but how much of his work will have to be redone because he couldn’t be bothered to do it right, even if he was properly trained.

Far too many people, particularly Americans with post-secondary school educations, figure that manual labor jobs are simple enough that they can be done by ignoramuses. Ask Mike Rowe about that some time…

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 3, 2023, 02:46 PM
 
That's not what I said, but go ahead and keep strawmanning I guess.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 4, 2023, 10:02 AM
 
“What I said” includes your intent. If the intent doesn't come through in the text, the message the reader gets can be quite different from what you meant. It’s all about how communicating with text is different from talking face to face.

Whether you meant to say that many “technical but not-that-technical” jobs were simple or trivial, that’s what I got from your post. And being (among other things) an educator with emphasis on technical training, I had to chime in.

And if you had ever engaged in an apprenticeship, you would understand that “hands on training” can be just as challenging as classroom-based training. Only in the classroom you can’t really screw up some explosion-proof conduit job and have to re-do it, including the expense of replacing the custom bent conduit you did wrong.

So please clarify “what you said” in terms that illuminate me (and others) as to what you actually meant, in contrast to what your words seemed to convey.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 5, 2023, 07:27 PM
 
Last time: EASIER. TO. REPLACE.

Someone can become useful at basic framing, plumbing, or electrical work in a week or two, probably even less. In 6 months they can become basically a pro.

Same is not true for other fields that require a lot more specific/deeper knowledge/skills.

That's all I've said. I didn't say the work was all easy/cake walk, I said it's EASIER TO REPLACE THE LABOR because a normal person can become proficient in not much time.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 5, 2023, 11:10 PM
 
Last time: narratives based on Jewish bankers calculating the expendability of particular groups of people are NAZI FOLKLORE.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
In 6 months they can become basically a pro.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 09:27 AM
 
To legally work as an electrician in Germany requires 3.5 years of schooling.

Bricklayer: 3 years.

Plumber: 3.5 years.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 12:10 PM
 
“Useful” would include “helper” level work. Like “go get me a 2x4” help. Functionally productive in framing requires actual training that takes a couple of months - framing walls, then partial walls/kitchen bars, then staircases, then roofs, then “special situations”.

What type of nailing is used for studs to headers, versus studs to footers? When building an interior, non-load-bearing wall, is it allowable to nail straight through either the header or footer into studs, or is there some other/additional nailing required? How do you use a framing square to accurately determine pitch for roof joists? What is the difference between residential framing and framing for commercial structures?

Learning this sort of thing, whether in a classroom or on the job, is not trivial, and requires direct supervision by a qualified (at least journeyman-level) craftsman. The cost of this training is non-trivial, since you have to pay the trainee, the craftsman training him/her, AND factor in the craftsman’s decreased productivity while performing training.

Yes, just about anyone can swing a hammer and make something that looks like framing. But will that framing be sturdy, and will it be up to code?

Underestimating the complexity of tasks one does not actually perform is one facet of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Worse, people with substantial qualifications in whatever they do are often subject to the Heinlein Corollary:
” Expertise in one field does not carry over into other fields. But experts often think so. The narrower their field of knowledge the more likely they are to think so.”
To clarify that, the corollary also means that true experts in some subject often trivialize the complexity of any other subject. My university includes a medical school, so there are faculty members who are MDs with PhDs. Some of these folks are so specialized that they seem to think IT can magically produce some complex piece of hardware out of thin air. Talking with these true experts about anything outside their focus can make you wonder who ties their shoes…

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 12:41 PM
 
carpentry is a 4 year internship before being considered a journeyman, aka, a lead carpenter, aka, PRO.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Underestimating the complexity of tasks one does not actually perform is one facet of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Worse, people with substantial qualifications in whatever they do are often subject to the Heinlein Corollary:
This is why I basically ignore engineers who try and talk about something outside of their current field of work. "I'm smart and understand how lots of things work, so let me make some really bad guesses and assumptions about this thing I've never worked with before!"

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
carpentry is a 4 year internship before being considered a journeyman, aka, a lead carpenter, aka, PRO.
...and they will still pale in comparison in knowledge, skill and speed to the person that's been doing it 15 or 20 years.

You can train a Wal-Mart cashier in a couple of days. Becoming a true craftsman takes years and years and years.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 03:30 PM
 
Dang, I didn't know the entire home construction industry was filled with 100% "true craftsman" who apprenticed for years and years. Learn something new every day.

I guess I was wrong. All those guys who barely passed high school and now work in HVAC really are smarter than microbiolgists, scientists, geopolitical historians, and consitutional scholars. Everything is Biden's fault.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
That's not what I said, but go ahead and keep strawmanning I guess.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 06:16 PM
 
I built my loft apartments in my warehouse 10 years ago, I did so just renting a couple books from the library & doing some basic math.



It was not fucking hard at all. But okay.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 06:19 PM
 
But you see the irony in you complaining about others straw-manning, and then posting what you did, right?
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Dang, I didn't know the entire home construction industry was filled with 100% "true craftsman" who apprenticed for years and years. Learn something new every day.

I guess I was wrong. All those guys who barely passed high school and now work in HVAC really are smarter than microbiolgists, scientists, geopolitical historians, and consitutional scholars. Everything is Biden's fault.
They ARE smarter about HVAC than those microbiologists, etc. Where is a constitutional scholar going to learn about which refrigerant is used with what system?

I'll also point out that academic types (which includes the specialties you mentioned) typically have "helpers" who get reference material for them, set up their experiments, do drafts of their publications - including ALL the citations - and so on. They're called things like "lab assistants," "research assistants," etc., and they do the hands-on work so their scientist/academic bosses can do the thinking part of the job. They also catch mistakes, correct "oopses," and generally take care of the boss.

I honestly do NOT want a neurosurgeon changing the oil in his/her car. There are several reasons for this, but I'll focus on this one: anything a neurosurgeon does that is not neurosurgery-related can distract them from neurosurgery.

Famed thoracic surgeon Denton Cooley quit driving himself to and from work so he could concentrate on his surgery schedule. He recognized both that he was better in surgery with more prep time, and that he would be distracted in driving. My father-in-law benefitted from Dr. Cooley's decision by having extremely good outcomes from his several surgeries.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 07:32 PM
 
Note: I'm considering moving the "laborforce" portion of this thread to a separate thread. These posts are only peripherally related to COVID anyway.

Unless somebody is really against that, I'll do it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But you see the irony in you complaining about others straw-manning, and then posting what you did, right?
ayyyyeee didn't understand the iron before, nice pun. And yeah. Apparently strawmanning is allowed tho. All blue collar workers are secretely smarter than everyone else. Let's ignore the point about training for basic trades not taking very long, and instead point out hyper specific examples in an effort to disprove my point.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 6, 2023, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
All those guys who barely passed high school and now work in HVAC really are smarter than microbiolgists, scientists, geopolitical historians, and consitutional scholars.
HVACR was a 4-semester course when I took it. With dependencies on electrical and math. I haven't done much with the knowledge since, but it was interesting.

If you want your work to pass inspection, you have to take courses. And you need a contractor's license (or be a contractor employee) to even accept a job above a few hundred dollars.

NEC introduction is a semester. Successive levels of wiring (Residential, Commercial, Industrial) are a semester each. Motor Controls was 2 semesters. Plus a few years apprenticing in the field, if you want a contractor's license. Besides the electrical, HVACR is a separate contractor license. Plus a few thousand dollars in tools for each trade. 3/4 of all HVACR problems are electrical, so you'll do a lot of electric troubleshooting.

A high school dropout (or graduate) could fetch the tools, and drive the truck. Anything else would require close supervision. Example I read in the news many years ago: Joe Blow tried to steal a condensing unit behind a store. Used an axe to chop through the electrical conduit. Didn't know to pull the disconnect first. Things went downhill from there.

It could be even worse today. Propane is used as a refrigerant in some systems today. If you don't pay attention to the labels and chop or saw the refrigerant lines, you could cause a decent explosion. Ammonia is also used in some systems, especially agricultural. It'll knock you out if you're not acclimated to it (or wearing a breather).
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 11:14 AM
 
Ammonia as a refrigerant is making a comeback. The dangers that led to dropping ammonia are now less pressing than a number of technical issues with “modern” refrigerants, particularly since it does not include chlorine or fluorine.

And there are still propane POWERED refrigeration systems out there. They used to be popular in RVs and campers, since you could use the same fuel to run the fridge that you used to cook with. That use has pretty much dried up, with small, efficient electrical refrigerators hitting the market quite a while back, but they’re out there.

So an trained, experienced and qualified HVAC specialist is anything but “easily replaced.” As are just about any of the “manual labor” sorts of jobs most people think of as “unskilled.” Frankly “unskilled labor” is a really bad, really biased term. “Trades” is a better label, if you need to label anything. And the term “trades” should imply the complex, formalized training and qualification that is part of all trades.

My dad became a Master Electrician, but only in an industrial setting, and it took him YEARS of work because of the - absolutely necessary - formal training and practice under a mentor needed for safe and effective performance of the job.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
bla bla bla bla cherry picked bullshit
Yes I'm sure the guy who just installs ductwork and works with tin snips and duct tape is practically a doctor. Jesus fucking christ you guys. Tell me you've never done user research or been on a home construction jobsite without telling me you've never been on a jobsite before. Sure, some of those guys are specialized with specific training. BUT MOST OF THEM ARE JUST GENERAL LABOR. Please pick this apart with more cherry picked bullshit in an attempt to deny reality tho.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I built my loft apartments in my warehouse 10 years ago, I did so just renting a couple books from the library & doing some basic math.



It was not fucking hard at all. But okay.
Given the right tools etc I could hammer together wood with nails, sure. Did that structure pass inspection or code? Is that railing to legal specifications with regard to height and spacing? We recently hired someone to rebuild some stairs. We were stupid enough to go with the low bid. That guy built the stair rail for hobbits. I literally could not reach it without bending over. The spacing was off. I had to google the requirements and print them out and have them redo it.

I don't think anyone is saying that neurosurgery isn't hard. But demeaning other work isn't productive.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 02:22 PM
 
Rob, "HVAC workers" was cherry-picked by you. Giving examples of people who could be replaced within 6 months. Not the first time you've picked an example trade, then had people with experience disagree. Followed by "JFC - I really meant xxx. Go by what I thought, rather than what I said".

I stopped short of going for the contractor's license, but otherwise took the full courses. Plus the math and electrical dependencies. HVACR isn't so easy. And no one goes around just installing ductwork, playing with tinsnips and duck tape. Professionals do that stuff along the way, between the harder parts. Among other things, there are code requirements for minimum duct sizes. Certain layouts will not work, or will over-handle some rooms while failing in others.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
duck
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Yes I'm sure the guy who just installs ductwork and works with tin snips and duct tape is practically a doctor. Jesus fucking christ you guys. Tell me you've never done user research or been on a home construction jobsite without telling me you've never been on a jobsite before. Sure, some of those guys are specialized with specific training. BUT MOST OF THEM ARE JUST GENERAL LABOR. Please pick this apart with more cherry picked bullshit in an attempt to deny reality tho.
Didn't this whole schmeer start by you posting a Q-Anon/Nazi conspiracy theory about Jewish bankers having released an artificial virus in order to eliminate the population's expendables?

Please don't let us distract you with our attempts to deny reality tho.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 07:25 PM
 
No dude, the only person mentioning jews and nazis is you, I think you need meds. Not everything is controlled by jews, buddy.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 7, 2023, 07:38 PM
 
Interesting you’d mention using sheet metal shears. My grandfather could eyeball most transitions, whether round or rectangular, and he didn’t waste a lot of material.

I can visualize what an unfolded shape would fold into, and what a folded shape would look like unfolded. In fact I scored quite high on the ASVAB in that section, as well as the AFOQT’s similar section.

But cut those shapes from sheet metal by hand, free-form? That’s a matter of training, practice and a lot more practice.

Now even if you transported my grandfather into 2023 while he was alive, I’m also sure he couldn’t build a simple 3D shape on a computer to save his life. It’s a matter of different training, different experience, and a number of other things. And I don’t know what he’d think about the flexible ductwork that goes into new houses nowadays. Because sheet metal ducts don’t sag on hangers, among other things.

Our society has very seriously screwed up by our emphasis on “get a degree or you’ll wind up digging ditches or doing fast food work.” That’s totally wrong, and has led to a really significant shortage in tradesmen.

Want custom cabinets? Good luck. You’ll get by with factory-made, prefab boxes that are designed for someone to hang on a wall, then hook a fancy looking door onto. You can buy them at Home Depot or Lowe’s.

Custom cabinet work is now almost all “artisanal”, which means way over priced, and done by someone who will look down his nose at you for wanting what YOU (the customer) want instead of buying into his fancy - and expensive - “vision.” And frankly, I doubt the product would be as flexible or durable as prefab boxes put together by a decent interior carpenter. Because the difference here is the “artisan” is all about himself, while the carpenter is all about the job. Which is how trades are supposed to be.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2023, 09:42 AM
 
I don't know why you guys keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. Fool me one, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me for two decades...uh...I can't help you.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2023, 11:18 AM
 
Man like everyone is sooooo smart and contrarian around here.

For example, working as a janitor, you need to know which direction to twist the mop when it's on the floor to bring the most dirt towards you, and then you need the sheer intelligence to operate the spray cleaner, while the incredible dexterity to wipe with paper towels. These guys work hard jobs, they're definitely smarter than most of the population, which is why they know sleepy joe and the bitch are not good for America, and covid AND global warming are librul hoaxes.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 8, 2023, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Man like everyone is sooooo smart and contrarian around here.

For example, working as a janitor, you need to know which direction to twist the mop when it's on the floor to bring the most dirt towards you, and then you need the sheer intelligence to operate the spray cleaner, while the incredible dexterity to wipe with paper towels. These guys work hard jobs, they're definitely smarter than most of the population, which is why they know sleepy joe and the bitch are not good for America, and covid AND global warming are librul hoaxes.
Okay, so we're down to George Soros ("Jewish bankers") releases artificial viruses (62 strains so far) to eventually eradicate the uneducated redneck janitors with the REAL humdinger, in order to reduce human load on the planet.

Now, about that "cherry-picking"…
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 10, 2023, 11:23 PM
 
“Things” are either true or untrue. Nothing “might be true”. Provide evidence, or accept that anything that “might be” will be viewed as horse manure. Particularly if you submit concepts that have been proven to be untrue, as if they were new and factual.

The idea of “alternate truth” was the Orange neonaz’s card to play. There is no such thing. True or false, nothing in between.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 11, 2023, 01:20 PM
 
We don't know if they're true or not. Sometimes things that ARE true are just said over and over they aren't true. We did have 4000 people die from covid last week, but the blue puppet said it's over.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 12, 2023, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
True or false, nothing in between.
I would argue this statement is mostly untrue.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:34 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,