[Athens]

Im not expecting many to know the politics of British Columbia since well the world stage ignores Canada mostly let alone the individual provinces. But our idiot politicians which run for business not the people have implemented a taxation system which follows along the lines of what many on here propose in the US. So here's your chance to see the real world disaster it will be for the people.

Little history is in order first.

4 Years ago our business income tax rate in BC was 18% and we had a consumption tax rate of 7%. This is at the provincial level. Along with the consumption tax a lot of items where exempt from that. So kids clothing, anything for babies, bikes, food, lots of items.

Just before the last Provincial election which is another topic the government said they would never bring in a HST tax, a Harmonized tax with the federal government. Well they did. And this created a massive tax shift to the people. Effectively this removed any type of consumption tax for business. And everything that was taxed exempted under the 7% PST was now taxable under the HST which combined with the GST is a 12% VAT on all goods and services. At the same time the business tax rate has been dropped to 10%.

So effectively 1.9 Billion in tax burden has been removed from businesses. And hundreds of millions of dollars saved from the administration of 2 different tax systems into one. And the public has picked up the additional tax burden. Before the public paid about 60% of the tax burden with business picking up 40%. Its now 100% the public. Provincial revenues lost money from the business income tax with its decrease as well. Some industries where hurt bad with it like restaurants because now food had a additional 7% tax on it.

What we where promised. More investment, more jobs, a better economy. Products would get cheaper as businesses passed on the savings to the consumer (ya right like any one believed that from the start)

Since its introduction none of this has happened. Business make more money but that goes to share holders. Revenue for the province is down so they have raised gas taxes and are putting tolls on bridges. And to buy the votes to keep this tax since the public forced a province wide vote on it, the first time its ever been successful anywhere in this country they now promise to drop the HST down by 2% over the next couple years. Of course that will leaving a billion dollar gap in revenue which means education, medical will be cut.

So watch BC closely to see if your misguided economic pro business stance holds up to real world tests. Because I have a feeling its going to ruin this province.

When it comes to job numbers its supply vs demand. If the Demand from the public is there for goods and services the jobs are supplied. If the Demand is not there jobs are retracted. When every one getting squeezed for more and more with this massive tax shift, the demand is not going to be there to warrant the jobs. So this is failure one I predict.

Failure two is prices will drop to reflect the savings businesses get. Competition drives price. A business is not going to drop prices just because they can. The entire reason for being is to make profits. No this will just provide business with additional profits which go to share holders and business owners. Not one cent will be lowered over this tax shift to the consumer. And with most things being a monopoly state now we don't have the business competition to drive prices down. Bestbuy isn't going to compete with Futureshop. Its the same company. Save On Foods isn't going to compete with Price Smart. Its the same company and so forth.

Manufacturing jobs will flock to the province because of lower taxes. Wrong, the largest cost to a business is labour. They will flock where the lowest labour costs are which is China.

The province will make up the difference from the lower tax rate with more economic activity. Wrong, Economic activity is going to be lower because people have less money to spend due to the tax shift. If anything economic activity will lower causing a greater disparity between revenue and expenditures.

So watch BC carefully to see if what you preach actually occurs. From my point of view we have set ourselves up for many years of deficits, higher user fees and reduced services while paying a lot more out of pocket while businesses jump for joy all the way to the bank to pocket additional savings.

[besson3c]

You're well on your way to the bottom mixing up "your" and "you're" in the thread title...

[Big Mac]

Exceptional quality Canadian education strikes again.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Exceptional quality Canadian education strikes again.

As do illogical generalizations, evidently...

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Exceptional quality Canadian education strikes again.

Low blow. Guess if you saw a blind guy trip on the side walk you would point a finger and laugh. Or if you saw a couple deaf people speaking in sign language you would make fun of them. Perhaps you will make fun of the store clerk with MS because he speaks funny. Or perhaps if you witnessed a Jewish kid being picked on for his head peace you would turn away oh wait your Jewish so maybe in that case you wouldn't. You assholes know I have dyslexia and you also know thread titles can be edited. So give it a rest. Should be against the rule against derailing threads with petty remarks of a personal nature.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Low blow. Guess if you saw a blind guy trip on the side walk you would point a finger and laugh. Or if you saw a couple deaf people speaking in sign language you would make fun of them. Perhaps you will make fun of the store clerk with MS because he speaks funny. Or perhaps if you witnessed a Jewish kid being picked on for his head peace you would turn away oh wait your Jewish so maybe in that case you wouldn't. You assholes know I have dyslexia and you also know thread titles can be edited. So give it a rest. Should be against the rule against derailing threads with petty remarks of a personal nature.

I just don't get it though. You can write coherently, in quantity, you can organize your thoughts... It's really hard accepting that your mistakes aren't just laziness, but I try to restrain myself from opinions too vehement since I don't know what it is like to have dyslexia firsthand.

[Athens]

This is what it is like. You think you're. You see it as you're even though what you typed was your. I see it as I thought not as what my hands typed. I make about a dozen or more mistakes with each post. I catch most of them before I submit and usually catch the rest after the post and edit it before others see it. A title is really easy to miss since its the post I'm looking at. And its not something you can edit after I think a minute making it impossible to fix.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

This is what it is like. You think you're. You see it as you're even though what you typed was your. I see it as I thought not as what my hands typed. I make about a dozen or more mistakes with each post. I catch most of them before I submit and usually catch the rest after the post and edit it before others see it. A title is really easy to miss since its the post I'm looking at. And its not something you can edit after I think a minute making it impossible to fix.

So, if you don't mind me asking, why do you catch the other mistakes but not your/you're pretty consistently?

[Athens]

Because with other words when its wrong it stands out pretty good after a review. Some times takes a few read overs to catch it. The sound of the word places a big part of it. If I was to type my Cat loves to fetch sticks intending to be Dog, reading it over again its a totally different sounding word and I catch it. Words like your, you're, there, their, sound the same making it much harder to catch which is why those words sneak past the most. Broken sentences most of the time get caught too. I have a habit of ending a sentence that I in my head continued. I go back and finish the sentence afterwords. Double words is another one like like. I tend to miss those a lot like there and their but most people don't seem to mention it.

[ghporter]

On topic, here in Texas, there is no question that state government is pro-business (and it's a poorly hidden truth that this makes our state government "anti-public at large"). Governor Perry pointed out recently that Texas has created thousands and thousands of jobs because of the pro-business stance of state government. Nope. Those jobs have been either extremely low wage service jobs (including food/bar service jobs that frequently get below minimum wage), have been "imported jobs" relating to a small section of the software industry relocating to Texas (and generally fornicating everything from home prices to traffic in Austin), or a relatively tiny number of manufacturing jobs that are here almost exclusively because of local tax breaks and that did NOT involve primarily hiring Texans. I sort of feel sadly good that other places are not as open about how they stick it to the public; here in Texas, at least it's out there for everyone to see that business payoffs are more important than individual security, health care and justice.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Every economist I've read thinks the HST is the smartest thing to do.

So.

[Paco500]

I suffer from dyslexia as well- it was fairly debilitating as a child, though I've managed to work with it as an adult.

I've never thought about it in the terms Athens describes it- but he is absolutely spot on. A good example of mind seeing something that is not there-

Years ago in the days the of Rolodex, I had a customer I called three of four times a week- frequently, but not often enough to remember the number. I looked up his number on the card I had written each time and dialed him fine for months. One day, I looked it up, dialed and got the wrong number. Looked at it even more carefully and dialed again- same result. Had a co-worker dial for me- same thing. I eventually had to call directory assistance and found when I had originally written the number I had reversed the order of the last four digits. Every time I dialed for months, I re-reversed them and everything was fine- I was none the wiser.

This is a somewhat extreme example of the little challenges I and others like me face daily.

That aside, this is an internet forum. Of course these things are going to get called out. There are those who have shown themselves time and time again to not be particularly nice who are going to do it in a particularly unpleasant fashion. See above.

As for knocking the Canadian educational system:

Just a single source but I doubt anyone can find anything to contradict it. Where do the US and Israel fall? Looks below Canada to me.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Exceptional quality Canadian education strikes again.

When you have nothing of substance, attack the messenger.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Because with other words when its wrong it stands out pretty good after a review. Some times takes a few read overs to catch it. The sound of the word places a big part of it. If I was to type my Cat loves to fetch sticks intending to be Dog, reading it over again its a totally different sounding word and I catch it. Words like your, you're, there, their, sound the same making it much harder to catch which is why those words sneak past the most. Broken sentences most of the time get caught too. I have a habit of ending a sentence that I in my head continued. I go back and finish the sentence afterwords. Double words is another one like like. I tend to miss those a lot like there and their but most people don't seem to mention it.

Fair enough, I apologize, and thanks for this info, I will keep it in mind!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

As for knocking the Canadian educational system:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...n-OECD-001.jpg
Just a single source but I doubt anyone can find anything to contradict it. Where do the US and Israel fall? Looks below Canada to me.

The takeaway for me is "don't speak Spanish."

[screener]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You're well on your way to the bottom mixing up "your" and "you're" in the thread title...

So what, you don't have to be grammatically correct to have an opinion.
I really hate people that feel the need or pooh poo thoughts that misspell words.
Freaking elitist asses.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by screener 

So what, you don't have to be grammatically correct to have an opinion.
I really hate people that feel the need or pooh change thoughts that misspell words.
Freaking elitist asses.

It is also incredibly distracting to take people seriously normally when they make these kind of basic mistakes. Would you be inclined to put stock into the ideas somebody who sounds like a YouTube commenter? Some appreciate bettering themselves at the whole being-convincing-on-the-internet thing, and some appreciate bettering themselves in general, and some ought to just be pushed to stop being lazy and sounding like a complete dumbass for their own good. It's just a case of knowing when it is appropriate to chime in. This is an artform I haven't come close to mastering.

Still, on the other hand, I happen to think that we should all work on developing the art of tactful and effective interjection, because YouTube commenting type talk is just incredibly annoying and deflating. It's not so much the tone, but making the same very basic mistakes consistently just sets the bar at intellectual mediocrity.

I mean all of this in a general way, obviously Athens is an exceptional case.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Every economist I've read thinks the HST is the smartest thing to do.

So.

Every economist believes that when businesses save money they reduce prices or hire more people too. Its a fundamental flaw in thinking. Its like how great a communist society is supposed to be. But reality is it can never get to that last stage to make utopia because of human nature. This fundamental flaw in thinking has been tried in many places already and none of the benefits they speak of materialize.

Flaw 1 Businesses don't pass savings to customers. They pass them to share holders
Flaw 2 Businesses don't hire more people just because they save some money. Its a supply vs demand. If they have the business to support more employee's they hire them. If they don't have the business to support it they don't
Flaw 3 Businesses will invest in operations. If the money to be made in investing in operations is to be had they would do it regardless of tax breaks. The economic outlook has to be in place for that.

The problem with economist is the lack of understanding of the nature of business. In a perfect world they would do as the economist expect. In the real world they don't.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Every economist believes that when businesses save money they reduce prices or hire more people too. Its a fundamental flaw in thinking. Its like how great a communist society is supposed to be. But reality is it can never get to that last stage to make utopia because of human nature. This fundamental flaw in thinking has been tried in many places already and none of the benefits they speak of materialize.

Flaw 1 Businesses don't pass savings to customers. They pass them to share holders
Flaw 2 Businesses don't hire more people just because they save some money. Its a supply vs demand. If they have the business to support more employee's they hire them. If they don't have the business to support it they don't
Flaw 3 Businesses will invest in operations. If the money to be made in investing in operations is to be had they would do it regardless of tax breaks. The economic outlook has to be in place for that.

The problem with economist is the lack of understanding of the nature of business. In a perfect world they would do as the economist expect. In the real world they don't.

You've nailed it. People/business are greedy. Period. Thinking that they'll "pass on" savings to people, if they have any "savings", is absurd and naive. Of course, the government is feeding people a line. I know they don't truly believe what they're saying. They just have to sell it.

Damn the ad agency who picked up the Pro-HST campaign for the BC Gov.

You know what I do notice? A $2 hot dog now costs me another ~14 cents, and every restaurant is more expensive, as if it's not expensive enough.

[Athens]

A lot of businesses jacked up the price of goods just after the tax went into effect. Was a double blow. Because I buy a lot of items that was not taxed before like for example usually a pop a day overall the personal hit im taking on this is working out to be about $2000 a year just in the extra tax. The numbers they use which it will only cost families 100 a year is total bogus.

[screener]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It is also incredibly distracting to take people seriously normally when they make these kind of basic mistakes.

Even when you know exactly what they mean.
Wow.
I find it incredibly superioritis of you.
You get my drift right?

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's not so much the tone, but making the same very basic mistakes consistently just sets the bar at intellectual mediocrity.

There you go again, freaking elitist...

By the by, the change you made quoting me makes no sense, but I don't care.
Big of me huh?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You're well on your way to the bottom mixing up "your" and "you're" in the thread title...

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The OP mistyped the thread title and took a lot of heat for it. The title was corrected shortly after the thread was started, but the chatter about the homophone misuse continues.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You've nailed it. People/business are greedy. Period. Thinking that they'll "pass on" savings to people, if they have any "savings", is absurd and naive. Of course, the government is feeding people a line. I know they don't truly believe what they're saying. They just have to sell it.

Damn the ad agency who picked up the Pro-HST campaign for the BC Gov.

You know what I do notice? A $2 hot dog now costs me another ~14 cents, and every restaurant is more expensive, as if it's not expensive enough.

Hah. You're the guy who was moving his business offshore so you would only pay minimal Canadian taxes. Now you're complaining that the government has shifted to a consumer-tax model?

WTF is wrong with you?

[Athens]

Well lets ask him, even with the HST changes is it worth you keeping your business here or offshore. I think I know the answer to that. No amount of changes to our tax code is going to make a difference when competing with dirt cheap labor and lax environmental regulations making everything else cheaper. Labor has always been the most expensive part of a operation.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Well lets ask him, even with the HST changes is it worth you keeping your business here or offshore. I think I know the answer to that. No amount of changes to our tax code is going to make a difference when competing with dirt cheap labor and lax environmental regulations making everything else cheaper. Labor has always been the most expensive part of a operation.

Yup. 0% tax compared to anything above 0% tax... not hard to do the math in terms of where you're going to go.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

You've both missed my point. It had to do with the government shifting to consumer-based tax, and the policies behind that, and how your moving offshore factored into those policies, but how you're complaining about the move to consumer-based tax anyway.

But I digress. I already know it's hopeless.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

You've both missed my point. It had to do with the government shifting to consumer-based tax, and the policies behind that, and how your moving offshore factored into those policies, but how you're complaining about the move to consumer-based tax anyway.

But I digress. I already know it's hopeless.

"Hopeless" tagged onto one of your posts. Who would've imagined it.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Great job avoiding the argument.

[Athens]

I dont think i missed the point. I think your point was a fail.

[screener]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Great job avoiding the argument.

Is that the turtle?

[mduell]

How many jobs did this change in tax policy create or save?

Originally Posted by Athens 

And everything that was taxed exempted under the 7% PST was now taxable under the HST which combined with the GST is a 12% VAT on all goods and services. At the same time the business tax rate has been dropped to 10%.

So effectively 1.9 Billion in tax burden has been removed from businesses. And hundreds of millions of dollars saved from the administration of 2 different tax systems into one. And the public has picked up the additional tax burden. Before the public paid about 60% of the tax burden with business picking up 40%. Its now 100% the public.

If the businesses have a 10% income tax rate, the only way for them to be paying 0% of the total tax burden is they're making no domestic profits. That seems like a bleak climate for businesses.

[Eug]

I have no problems with the HST in general. If the HST is too high that's a problem, but an appropriate HST is beneficial to the provincial economy.

BTW, most of the rest of the country which has the HST thinks BC residents are whining far too much in their resistance to the HST. I live in Ontario and we too have our grumblings about our HST too, but people are surprised at the response that happened in BC.

HST: Why so mellow, Ontario? Why so bugged, B.C.? - The Globe and Mail

[Athens]

Right......

First its a hot topic in Ontario still HST in Canada

Second, I don't know how you can say most of Country is on HST. That is such a total crock. BC and Ontario just got it and are both mostly against it the only difference is the people in BC had a legal option to dump it where as Ontario does not. Only The Atlantic provinces had HST, which combined isn't even the population of Metro Vancouver. Add now BC and Ontario that still leaves, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, White Horse, NWT, and Nunavik with out it. Im leaving out Quebec because it has the QST which is similar to HST. So your statement should be Half of Canada now with BC and Ontario on HST not most of Canada which is already on HST.

HST has ZERO benefit to the economy, NONE at all. ZERO. The only thing the HST does is shifts the tax burden to 100% the people and gives business a free ride. Its a massive tax shift nothing more. And in the case of BC which is baiting its people to keep it with a reduction of HST over 3 years we are going to be left with a massive funding gap as well on top of that. Ontario is more mellow about the HST because they have no choice. They don't have a option to force a recall or to remove it.

[Eug]

? I said that most in those provinces with the HST aren't as worried about it as BC seems to be.

BTW, I suspect part of the reason relates to those leading the protest in BC, such as Vander Zalm.

[Athens]

and the fact we have a option to force a referendum on it and a recall system in place as well. Both unique to BC. If the option was open in Ontario I bet we would be seeing a different picture there.

[Eug]

I doubt it. It's just not on the radar. Maybe part of it is because it was marketed better in Ontario though with cash bribes to lower income families. However, likely a significant part of it has to do with people like Vander Zalm stirring up the pot.

[Athens]

Well the marketing in Ontario helped a bit. Part of the issue his how the government lied during the elections about the HST to. Not only is it about being bad for the people its also about being lied to.

[gradient]

On the business side, I can tell you that a lot of us have been hurt by this as well. It simply drives many customers away and gives other clients more leverage in price negotiations. I.E. "I only have XX.XX number of dollars in my budget, the same as I had the last time we worked together. I don't care about the HST, I need you to do it for the same after tax price as last time or I have to take my business elsewhere." Guess what happens there? We essentially end up having to subsidize the fricken' HST or lose the business. Combine that with the general economic downturn that has finally hit our province very hard the past couple of years and it's a recipe for disaster for many businesses. My workplace has seen major layoffs in the past year; I won't say that it's because of the HST, but it sure as hell hasn't helped.

[Athens]

A lot of businesses and industry have hurt from it. The only ones that really gain from it are large companies. Service industries don't gain much. The food industry hurts a lot too. I cut my eating out by 75% just because of the HST.

A friends bike shop said sales dropped by 40% and he is struggling to stay in business and totally blames the HST.

Here is the list of taxed items http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/bc-100514-...items-list.pdf

These are the things im paying more on

Cigarettes (7% more) $233
Accountant (7% more) $35.00
Hair Cuts (7% more) $21.84
MP3 Downloads aka iTunes (7% more) $14.00
Ski Lift Passes at Whistler (7% more) $24.50
Concerts (7% more) $28.00
Live Theatre like Wicked which I saw recently (7% More) $14.00
Gym Membership (7% more) $42.00
Museums and Art Galleries (7% more) $1.75
Movie Tickets (7% more) $11.00
NHL Games and other sporting games (7% more) $42.00
Vitamins (7% more) dunno stopped buying them
Over the counter Meds like Aspern (7% more) dunno random expenses
Parking (7% More) dunno random expenses
Air, Rail, Bus travel (7% More) dunno random expenses
Camping Sites (7% More) $10.00
Taxi's (7% More) dunno random expenses
Computer Service (7% More) and I have to charge my customers 7% more then before for this
Home services, like Landscaping, Snow Removal and Cleaning (7% more)
Home Reno's (7% More)
Appliance Repair (7% More)
Phone Service (7% More)
Cable TV (7% More) $126.00
Restaurant Meals (7% more) $255.00
Snack Food (7% more and this one hits me hard) $255.00
Used Clothing (7% more) dunno random expense
Dry Cleaning (7% more) dunno random expense
Shoe Repair (7% More) dunno random expense
Moving Services (7% more) dunno random expense
Food Producing Plants (7% more) dunno random expense
First Aid Kids (7% more) dunno random expense
Magazines (7% more) dunno random expense
Newspapers (7% more) dunno random expense
Books (7% more) dunno random expense


So that's well over $1113 bucks more just from the dam tax alone.

Thats a 1000 bucks out of my pocket. Thats a 1000 bucks im not spending on things. Thats a 1000 bucks that is making me not spend on stuff because I feel like I have less money oh wait I do have less money. Almost $100 dollars more a month just on a new tax....

Big Ticket items that will affect me later on

Real Estate Commissions (7% More)
Boat (5% more)
Used Car (5% more)
New House (7% More) Assume I buy a cheap 600 000 house thats $42,000

[ShortcutToMoncton]

See, it's funny, because you guys are all saying the exact opposite of what every single tax economist I've ever read is saying about this tax system.

Sooooooooo...yeah. You're saying businesses are hurt by it, and consumers are hurt by it....I mean, that's just not logically possible in my mind. Which is it?

greg

[ghporter]

How is it difficult to picture that when consumers don't have as much spendable income that they don't patronize businesses as much, which hurts those businesses?

Henry Ford priced his cars and paid his workers with the thought that his workers should be able to afford one of his cars; that is both good advertising and good business. By emphasizing business perks through sticking it to consumers, a state or province can mess things up pretty awfully. It sounds like in BC they have looked at only one facet of a very large and fairly complex situation, and by significantly lightening the tax load on businesses through significantly increasing the tax load on individuals, they've burdened the whole system.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

It' a consumption (value added) tax vs. the old income tax system. Look it up. Income tax has been lowered somewhat to accomodate the new HST. If you want to consume more, you pay more tax; you're not taxed more merely because you make more money. It's more efficient - you get the money in the first place instead of losing it in income tax, and then you can decide how you want to spend it.

And for every thing that Athens lists above, there's another thing which he will actually pay less tax on. The problem is, it's not something that people can actually see. So you'll get Athens/etc. raving on about "paying more for a haircut!" just because he hasn't read into the details and benefits of a consumption-based tax, and doesn't understand how it's good for the system.

(Do I fully understand? No. But the two chartered accountants I know tell me it's a much better system, and in fact every economist/CA says that the old system was dysfunctional in comparison. And you'll notice Athens has yet to post anything by someone knowledgeable in that field to comment on the new system...?)

What you have here is a classic case of Athens complaining "with his gut."

[ghporter]

My impression of the situation is that consumers, not accountants, are the ones feeling overburdened, and they are reducing consumption because it is more expensive now. A tax that you pay once a year, like the US's income tax, feels less burdensome than paying substantially more than you are used to paying for bread and milk every time you go to the store.

Whether it's a "better system" or not, the way it's been applied seems to have been a mistake.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Here in Canada income tax is usually taken off your paycheck by your employer. In the case of most employed people, their haircut might be more expensive than before, but their paycheck is also a little bigger.

The "way it's been applied" argument is a crock IMO. To my knowledge, this is how you apply a value-added tax. It's how it works.

greg

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

See, it's funny, because you guys are all saying the exact opposite of what every single tax economist I've ever read is saying about this tax system.

Sooooooooo...yeah. You're saying businesses are hurt by it, and consumers are hurt by it....I mean, that's just not logically possible in my mind. Which is it?

greg

OK the maritimes have had it since 1997, show me the economic benefits for them. Almost every non bias report says prices went up, the burden of taxes shifted to the people. Businesses continued to leave and it didn't help with jobs.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

It' a consumption (value added) tax vs. the old income tax system. Look it up. Income tax has been lowered somewhat to accomodate the new HST. If you want to consume more, you pay more tax; you're not taxed more merely because you make more money. It's more efficient - you get the money in the first place instead of losing it in income tax, and then you can decide how you want to spend it.

And for every thing that Athens lists above, there's another thing which he will actually pay less tax on. The problem is, it's not something that people can actually see. So you'll get Athens/etc. raving on about "paying more for a haircut!" just because he hasn't read into the details and benefits of a consumption-based tax, and doesn't understand how it's good for the system.

(Do I fully understand? No. But the two chartered accountants I know tell me it's a much better system, and in fact every economist/CA says that the old system was dysfunctional in comparison. And you'll notice Athens has yet to post anything by someone knowledgeable in that field to comment on the new system...?)

What you have here is a classic case of Athens complaining "with his gut."

You don't get it do you. Its not just the combining of 2 taxes. Its the taxing of stuff that was not taxed before. If the HST came in with the same stuff being tax exempted as it was under the PST there would not be a problem. Instead they added a tax on a LOT of items and over night. And worse they lied about it during the election. They said they would never bring in this tax during the election and weeks after being elected they added the tax. Then they said they wouldn't buy votes for it during the province wide vote for it and they lied again by saying they would drop the HST to 10%. IF they do that they will be short billions in future budgets which means more stuff to be cut. Everything is absolutely wrong with this tax. The tax itself, the way they lied to bring it in, the way they are attempting to buy votes to keep it and the future risk of not enough funding. Its all wrong...

because he hasn't read into the details and benefits of a consumption-based tax, and doesn't understand how it's good for the system

Oh I have read the assumed BS benefits for the tax and its all BS.

A business does not hire more people because it pays less tax. A business hires more people if the demand requires them to. If the demand does not change on services and goods no decreased tax is going to cause a business to hire people they don't need.

A business is not going to lower prices just to lower prices when people pay at a current price. What ever the business saves is going to go straight to profits period. The BS that prices will lower, only a idiot would believe that. Competition lowers prices and this tax does nothing to add competition.

Businesses wont pack up and leave just because they get taxed more in BC then in Alberta. As long as money is to be made a business is going to operate. If they are not making money its not because of taxes they pay. Now add a new consumption tax on a business like the food industry and you actually will hurt business.

Targeted tax breaks for specific industries work better for attracting mobile industry. Like the Movie industry, they should get the tax cuts so they film movies here. I don't see why Wal-Mart, Tim Hortons and other companies deserve tax breaks.

Even with the HST, Alberta right next door has NO Provincial tax, only GST at 5%. Washington State is also something in the 5% range. How is our 12% PST going to make us more tax competitive then Alberta or Washington. It wont. It changes nothing.

Its all lies and BS to make business richer at the expense of people. Wont create jobs. Wont reduce prices. Wont make us more competitive. How is this so hard to understand.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Here in Canada income tax is usually taken off your paycheck by your employer. In the case of most employed people, their haircut might be more expensive than before, but their paycheck is also a little bigger.

The "way it's been applied" argument is a crock IMO. To my knowledge, this is how you apply a value-added tax. It's how it works.

greg

Yes it comes off our checks so we see what a extra 8 dollars a check from the income tax cut and spend a extra 100.00 a month on new tax. And Safeway, Time Hortons, Ciniplex, and 400 000 other businesses now pay zero consumption tax on the stuff they consume..... Ya thats totally fair.

Lets look at my Pay Stub, I dont really care if any one knows what I make..

Gross Pay on a bi weekly Statement $1835.62
Net Pay is $1386.09

Deductions include
CPP $84.20
EI $32.18
Income Tax $285.22
MSP $27.93 (listed on there because its a taxable benefit. Its actually paid by the company)
Extended Medical coverage $20.00 (my portion of it anyways)

Over the year that means I pay
$2189.20 to CPP
$836.68 to EI
$7415.72 to Income Tax

So thats $10441.60 in deductions already

Now add to that $1200+ more a year paid out with this new tax (businesses get a free ride) and the government is tolling everything to make up for short falls from given business a break which is costing me another $1200 a year.... so im paying at least $2400 per year more then pre HST days....

At the same time Tim Horton has raised its prices since the HST, lowered wages and making record profits and not paying anything into PST any more...

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

OK the maritimes have had it since 1997, show me the economic benefits for them. Almost every non bias report says prices went up, the burden of taxes shifted to the people. Businesses continued to leave and it didn't help with jobs.

Sigh. No. You're wrong. The reports say that consumer prices in Atlantic Canada went down. Just like consumer prices went down when our GST was implemented. Just like other countries that have implemented a GST-style tax also saw costs flow through to consumers.

You can keep pulling out your paycheck all you want. Let me know when you actually quote someone who knows what they're talking about, and aren't freaking out because they've got to pay taxes on their movie ticket now.

greg

[Athens]

http://www.douglasmagazine.com/headl...n-the-hst.html

Following Nova Scotia’s implementation of the HST, some prices did drop marginally, according to a C.D. Howe Institute study in July 2007 by Michael Smart: “Indeed, overall, consumer prices in the harmonizing provinces fell with the 1997 reform, although prices rose somewhat for shelter and for clothing and footwear, so that the reform was slightly regressive.

“Reform led to significant increases in machinery and equipment investment, in the short run at least, which should raise the capital stock and labour productivity there in the long run.”

Smart said the change to HST in Nova Scotia left after-tax consumer prices, “on average, slightly lower than before the reform.”
Come July 1 in B.C., each time a business pays HST on purchased goods or services, it can deduct the HST from the tax it has collected on its own sales, lowering what it has to send to Ottawa. And if a business owes the government more HST than it collects from customers, it can claim a refund.

While Hansen agrees that some items will cost more post-HST, the new tax will also lead to a re-evaluation of business practices. “This is an opportunity for business owners to look at how they benefit from costs coming down,” he says. Recall how furniture or department stores offer sales where they trumpet that they’ll pay the GST all weekend. Well, Hansen predicts “We pay the HST” pitches from creative retailers.
The Chamber’s Carter says lower consumer prices will appear but how quickly is debatable. To make up for lost business, some enterprises may not pass on savings, says von Schellwitz. They may use the HST bonus to pay for rising interest rates on bank financing, to cover higher costs of fuel, and to cope with lingering recessionary effects.

Nova Scotia knew it would lose revenue — it dropped $500 million over the first five years — but over the long run, the HST has benefited the province, Bergman says. Exports have increased and businesses have relocated there, attracted by the input tax credits. He predicts the same will happen in B.C. “The HST is clearly the wave of the future,” he says.

Here is a important difference between Nova Scotia and BC. The Maritime HST REDUCED the combined tax rate upon introduction: Newfoundland (from 19% to 15% to 13%) and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (from 18.7% to 15% to 13%). The BC HST DOES NOT reduce the combined tax rate as it is 12% (7% PST plus 5% GST) making consumer goods and services more expensive as most items were not previously taxed the 7% PST tax.

So unlike BC, the tax rate went down in Nova Scotia and new Brunswick. Here our tax rate is going up not down because of the HST. More money out of the pocket right from the start of it. Ontario gave out rebates of 1000.00 to families or 300 to individuals. They also have point of sale rebates of the 8% provincial portion of the HST so many of the items not taxed under the Ontario PST is still the same 5% as before. That isn't happening in BC so we are paying more from the start. Another reason we wont see any price lowering but higher prices here is because of the dam carbon tax on fuel, the higher fuel costs here from the higher taxes and now toll bridge costs. All these things are pushing prices up. The people get screwed for what, so businesses can pass on more profits to share holders....

You have never explained why business deserves a free ride. Why the people should take on more of the tax burden and loss of services just so share holders get a larger profit percentage.