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Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 54)
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andi*pandi
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Oct 21, 2020, 09:47 AM
 
If hunter's addiction was a big secret then I can see the possibility of blackmail.. however it's pretty public, embarrassing photos notwithstanding. Joe loves his son and is proud of his recovery.

Now, about Tiffany appearing drunk off her socks at a Trump LGBTQ rally? Or Eric and Don Jr similarly appearing wasted (twitter likes to say on cocaine)? While technically being govt representatives (?!?)
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Oct 21, 2020 at 12:39 PM. )
     
subego
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Oct 21, 2020, 10:08 AM
 
“It’s pretty open Hunter committed felonies on the regular, but Trump’s kids drink.”

Not. Helping.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 21, 2020, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Those are only a liability if he can’t pay them off.

My guess is he can pay them. He’ll have to liquidate assets though.
That’s your guess, but we don’t know whether or not he can. If he used his assets as a security in other business dealings, he might not be free to sell his assets even though his assets >= Trump’s liabilities. Even if President Trump could liquidate these assets in office (during a second term), that in itself would present a huge conflict of interest (e. g. because of who is buying or for what price).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Added to that, it gives the impression Hunter has no control over himself, and his father has no control over the situation.
I find it weird how weirdly people are interpreting the situation. We all have someone in our family who is an addict. Perhaps it is alcohol, perhaps it is something else. You don’t have control over them, nor do they over you. They don’t have full control over their addiction. You still love them, though. That’s how I understood Biden’s response during the debate: he did not want to throw his son under the bus on national TV in front of millions, and told him that he loves him and is proud of him. Because he didn’t want his son to be a pinball in the game of politics. I thought it was a rare display of honest, deeply felt humanity and empathy.

I don’t know the Biden family at all, but I can imagine it wasn’t easy if you are facing severe trauma as a child, your father is a prodigy (becoming a US Senator at age 29, that’s impressive), your brother is on his way to follow into your father’s footstep. Oh, and he is a highly decorated military vet, too, while you got thrown out/quit the military. You feel like a loser. And you are an addict, which makes you even more of a loser. As an addict, achieving a fraction of what your brother and father did will be even more difficult. To make matters worse, your brother dies, too. I can see aspects of my life experiences reflected in here.

If we had more empathy for each other, we’d leave Hunter Biden alone. I don’t think he presents a serious security risk to a President Biden.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That’s a bad look for someone who asks to lead the free world. Say what you will about Trump, he keeps his kids in line.
I feel like we are watching different movies. Trump’s children are in on the family business (you could say in on the con), whereas Joe Biden isn’t mixing business/politics with his son Hunter. (I wouldn’t want to go into business with a close family member when I know they are guided by their addiction.) Trump’s children earn their share in business dealings (including e. g. Ivanka Trump double dipping as an employee and a consultant on the same project). They are his closest advisors. They are the people with the most power in the White House.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
“It’s pretty open Hunter commits felonies on the regular, but Trump’s kids drink.”

Not. Helping.
Trump’s tax returns smell of impropriety, and at least his daughter Ivanka is named explicitly as being involved in questionable decisions that may amount to tax fraud (where Ivanka Trump was double dipping). I reckon at least some of his other children are involved, too. So I think it is kinda myopic to focus on drub abuse and forget about other potential crime.

PS Not that I care, but wasn’t the rumor that Trump’s son Donald Jr. was on cocaine, i. e. that he was high, not drunk?
PPS A former President also had a drug problem, before he turned his life around. At one point of his life, he also committed felonies on the regular. Does that matter? I think not. IMHO it just shoes how hypocritical and badly most countries deal with drugs.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Oct 21, 2020 at 10:22 AM. )
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OreoCookie
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Oct 21, 2020, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Biden (Sr) is already winning by a wide margin. Even if the laptop is fake, their best course might be to ignore it until after the election. Even denying it drags them into possible Russia theories that can't be proven on short notice.
The way I see it is that in the list of priorities, this is extremely low on my list. And it is being used to distract from things that might literally kill another 100,000 Americans. You have the pandemic, racial unrest, climate change, the economic downturn, a health care crisis, a housing crises, US losing influence due to its recent decisions, a sitting President who is a walking Emoluments Clause violation, who flirts with white supremacists, etc.

Hunter Biden’s laptop is not even visible on this pile of actual problems. And that Trump is the one who would chastise Biden for improprieties in the family putting the hypocrisy dial to 11.
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subego
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Oct 21, 2020, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
(I wouldn’t want to go into business with a close family member when I know they are guided by their addiction.)
That’s the whole point.

Joe knows his son is a walking disaster. This requires some “tough love”, which means getting in the way of high-paying consultancies in foreign countries, not enabling them.
     
subego
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Oct 21, 2020, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
So I think it is kinda myopic to focus on drub abuse and forget about other potential crime.
¿Por qué no los dos?
     
subego
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Oct 21, 2020, 12:23 PM
 
As an aside, I’ve done cocaine, and I know a ton of people who have. I don’t really consider it that big a deal for someone with some self control.

Do not do meth.

Like, seriously.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 21, 2020, 12:36 PM
 
From what I gather, voters DGAF about Hunter Biden. They care about Covid, healthcare and other stuff. Conservatives have been slating Trump's campaign team for trying to flog the Hunter horse so desperately.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 21, 2020, 02:42 PM
 
The opinion of the conservatives I’ve seen is they know the information is being released in a structured way, and they’re impatiently waiting for the third act.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 21, 2020, 05:26 PM
 
was it Rudy in the Borat movie? Cause that's not much of an act.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 21, 2020, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Fox is reporting on the story.
They are NOW.

They didn’t touch the initial story.

FBI, DOJ Concur: Hunter Biden Laptop, Emails NOT ‘Russian Disinformation’
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...4ySL1RsikI2LtQ
Yep, it would seem that this disinformation isn’t necessarily of Russian origin, even if it’s in Russian interest.

Giuliani’s ties are more in the Ukraine, and he’s been using them for a long time to try and fabricate anything to smear Biden — as we know from the “perfect” phone call that got Trump impeached.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What....does that Q in your sig stand for?
Yeah...I was wondering about that too.

     
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Oct 21, 2020, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Joe knows his son is a walking disaster. This requires some “tough love”, which means getting in the way of high-paying consultancies in foreign countries, not enabling them.
I don’t see how Joe Biden is enabling Hunter Biden’s consultancy by anything other than being closely related to him. Joe Biden hasn’t arranged for Hunter Biden to get these jobs, Hunter Biden got paid for the last name essentially. I am not sure what you mean by “tough love” either, all involved are all adults, once an addict is an adult, there is precious little you can do in terms of “getting in the way.” All Biden can do is separate himself from his son’s business ventures and try to help him — which seems to be what he has been doing all along. So overall, the story is a big nothing burger from a political perspective.
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reader50
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Oct 21, 2020, 08:43 PM
 
I agree with Oreo. If Hunter were on the ballot, I'd be interested. But he's not running for office, and is an adult child.
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 23, 2020, 04:04 PM
 
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
Laminar
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Oct 23, 2020, 04:58 PM
 
Ah, the violent leftist Antifa strikes again.

A couple of days later, during police protests Austin, Texas, police pulled over a truck after seeing three men in tactical gear and carrying guns drive away in it. Hunter, in the front passenger seat, wore six loaded banana magazines for an AK-47-style assault rifle on his tactical vest, according federal authorities. The two other men had AR-15 magazines affixed to their vests. The officers found an AK-47-style rifle and two AR-15 rifles on the rear seat of the vehicle, a pistol next to the driver’s seat and another pistol in the center console.

Hunter denied he owned any of the weapons found in the vehicle. He did, according to the complaint, volunteer he was the leader of the Boogaloo Bois in South Texas and that he was present in Minneapolis when the Third Precinct was set on fire. Police seized the guns and let Hunter and the others go.
That's...the whitest shit I've ever heard.
     
reader50
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Oct 23, 2020, 05:15 PM
 
Money must grow on trees for these guys. He gave away several thousand dollars of guns & mags to the police, rather than admit ownership.
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 03:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don’t see how Joe Biden is enabling Hunter Biden’s consultancy by anything other than being closely related to him. Joe Biden hasn’t arranged for Hunter Biden to get these jobs, Hunter Biden got paid for the last name essentially. I am not sure what you mean by “tough love” either, all involved are all adults, once an addict is an adult, there is precious little you can do in terms of “getting in the way.” All Biden can do is separate himself from his son’s business ventures and try to help him — which seems to be what he has been doing all along. So overall, the story is a big nothing burger from a political perspective.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I agree with Oreo. If Hunter were on the ballot, I'd be interested. But he's not running for office, and is an adult child.

In one of the texts from the laptop, Hunter tells his daughter he won’t take half her salary the way Joe does to him.

A truly loving father doesn’t exploit their son like that in the first place, let alone once he realizes most of what’s left over gets spent on crack and hookers.

Further, we’re talking about the Vice President of the United States. There are few people on earth who have more ability to interfere with their son’s affairs. The proposition he was helpless strains all credulity.


To be clear, I don’t expect this to be enough to shake the resolve of anyone set on removing Trump, and I honestly begrudge no one for that. However, it remains worthwhile to consider whether this man’s folksy charm is a mask.
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 04:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ah, the violent leftist Antifa strikes again.
Bizarrely, the Minnesota Boogs claim they’re ancaps.

Like many Boogaloos, Solomon also said he now recants his past support for President Donald Trump. Now, Solomon views himself as an “anarcho-capitalist.”

Both Solomon and experts who have tracked the movement add that it was initially miscast as an offshoot of far-right white power extremism.

https://m.startribune.com/inside-min...pse/571821151/


Edit: this is also bizarre...




Edit2: I had forgotten about the whole Hawaiian shirt deal, but it’s still kinda bizarre.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 24, 2020 at 08:09 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 24, 2020, 10:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In one of the texts from the laptop, Hunter tells his daughter he won’t take half her salary the way Joe does to him.

A truly loving father doesn’t exploit their son like that in the first place, let alone once he realizes most of what’s left over gets spent on crack and hookers.
Why do you take a teeny-tiny snapshot of a complicated family story and interpret it in the worst way for Joe Biden? We should assume we know nothing about their family history, and definitely should not assume the worst. (And that counts for both, Hunter and Joe Biden.)
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Further, we’re talking about the Vice President of the United States. There are few people on earth who have more ability to interfere with their son’s affairs. The proposition he was helpless strains all credulity.
Can ≠ should.
Addiction is not a problem power can solve, only the addict him- or herself can decide that. George W. Bush was an addict, despite having a similarly powerful father than Hunter Biden — until he himself decided to sober up. Using power over someone to force them usually just causes further resentment and makes things worse, especially when everyone involved is an adult. And just personally, I’d find that an immoral use, an abuse of power: Joe Biden would put down his own son just to satisfy his own personal ambitions.

So yes, I think Joe Biden is as helpless as any parent with a child who is an addict.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
To be clear, I don’t expect this to be enough to shake the resolve of anyone set on removing Trump, and I honestly begrudge no one for that. However, it remains worthwhile to consider whether this man’s folksy charm is a mask.
You sound like you have made up your mind on that. Why?
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subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 10:10 AM
 
A father demanding a 50% kickback isn’t a teeny-tiny snapshot.

The way one deals with an addict is to make their behavior have consequences. This is Recovery 101.

What have I made my mind up on? I’m genuinely unclear.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 24, 2020 at 11:05 AM. )
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2020, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A

What have I made my mind up on? I’m genuinely unclear.
I won't answer that but some of your recent stances make me think you are shifting fairly strongly towards the right. Why is that?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I won't answer that but some of your recent stances make me think you are shifting fairly strongly towards the right. Why is that?
My guess is I didn’t shift to the right per se, but that for awhile my morality has been far more conservative than I realized.

The riots caused those morals to both suddenly and strongly assert themselves.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2020, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My guess is I didn’t shift to the right per se, but that for awhile my morality has been far more conservative than I realized.

The riots caused those morals to both suddenly and strongly assert themselves.
Oddly, the riots are all about morality.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2020, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In one of the texts from the laptop, Hunter tells his daughter he won’t take half her salary the way Joe does to him.

A truly loving father doesn’t exploit their son like that in the first place, let alone once he realizes most of what’s left over gets spent on crack and hookers.
Wait, are we assuming that the whole "Hunter Biden's laptop" thing is legit?

I haven't been keeping up, since it's actually irrelevant to Joe Biden's standing and just exposes the Trump campaign's deperation.

But is there any evidence or clear statement at all to indicate that this laptop is, in fact, Hunter Biden's, that the "exposed" data on the machine is actually legitimately his and unmanipulated, and in a whole different vein: has the computer repair shop owner been indicted yet for theft?
     
reader50
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Oct 24, 2020, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In one of the texts from the laptop, Hunter tells his daughter he won’t take half her salary the way Joe does to him.
Insufficient data - context missing. As written, it implies parental theft from an adult child, while running for public office. That would look bad, and seems generally stupid.

Assuming this text is real, and Hunter is correct while writing it - what does Hunter owe to his dad? A house perhaps? If Dad requires payback for an in-family loan, there's nothing bad about that.
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 24, 2020, 12:14 PM
 
Of course, all of this is dependent on the emails (let alone the laptop story itself) being at all legitimate, which few observers seem to believe.
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subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Oddly, the riots are all about morality.
I would agree, and one of the troubles with morality is it‘s designed to rigidly exclude competing moralities.

Morality is also something we have little conscious control over. It just is. How I feel about the riots is pre-formulated by my morals. It just is.

I can see and understand the morality in competition with mine. If those competing morals didn’t have value, they wouldn’t exist. Under the assumption my own morals wouldn’t exist either if they didn’t have value, I seek reconciliation between the two.

Unfortunately, my brain is actively working to reject competing morals, so progress is difficult.
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2020, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Wait, are we assuming that the whole "Hunter Biden's laptop" thing is legit?
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Of course, all of this is dependent on the emails (let alone the laptop story itself) being at all legitimate, which few observers seem to believe.
The evidence it is legit is circumstantial, however it is rather overwhelming.

The FBI has been in possession of the laptop for 10 months. If there‘s a difference between what’s been presented and what the FBI has, they‘re obligated to come forward about it. They‘re likewise obligated if they had evidence the laptop had been altered before they received it. If the tech committed crimes, what he did with the evidence is give it to federal law enforcement.

This is what we knew on day one. From the outset, there has been an extremely high probability it’s legit.

Since then, multiple people have provided their copies of email chains. There have been no real denials. No lawsuits.

The FBI did decide to come forward about Russia. In other words, they felt obligated to come forward about a theory. It will be extremely awkward for them if they are simultaneously covering up direct evidence of a hoax.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 24, 2020 at 04:01 PM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 24, 2020, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Insufficient data - context missing. As written, it implies parental theft from an adult child, while running for public office. That would look bad, and seems generally stupid.

Assuming this text is real, and Hunter is correct while writing it - what does Hunter owe to his dad? A house perhaps? If Dad requires payback for an in-family loan, there's nothing bad about that.
Yup, that’s exactly what I was alluding to. Taking splinters of information without proper context and projecting into it whatever one wants (e. g. the worst or best possible version for Joe Biden).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The way one deals with an addict is to make their behavior have consequences. This is Recovery 101.
… which is different from using the power of his political office to keep his son in line, i. e. to force his son to do “what‘s best for him”. And I don‘t know if this is the only aspect of dealing with addicts, love and compassion are at least as important.

If Joe Biden wanted to use the story of his son to his political advantage (which IMHO would be morally yucky), he could have quite easily. Joe Biden could use talking points like “the experience of addiction in my family is why I changed my mind on punishing drug possession very harshly”, but he doesn‘t. And IMHO that says something about his character.
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andi*pandi
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Oct 25, 2020, 02:12 AM
 
So, repair shops can just turn over your stuff to the cops, feds, etc without a warrant?
     
subego
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Oct 25, 2020, 02:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
So, repair shops can just turn over your stuff to the cops, feds, etc without a warrant?
The computer was dropped off for repairs in April of 2019.

The tech claims he tried multiple times to get Biden to pick it up. Biden never picked it up, or paid for the repair. Every repair shop has terms of service where they get to keep the item if the account goes delinquent.

Nine months after it was dropped off, the tech contacted the FBI, who subpoenaed the laptop.


Independent of this, the answer is yes. If a repair shop finds something illegal on a laptop they are supposed to call the police, who will get a warrant or a subpoena. This happens all the time with child porn.

As an aside, generally out of boredom, almost every repair tech rifles through your photos, and the terms of service let them do it.

Encrypt yo shit.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 25, 2020 at 02:51 AM. )
     
subego
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Oct 25, 2020, 03:56 AM
 
Aaaaaaand... now I’ve seen Hunter’s dong.

Spoiler:

     
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Oct 25, 2020, 06:29 AM
 
He has an elephant in this pants?
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 25, 2020, 07:16 AM
 
I still fail to see what this has to do with Joe Biden's candidacy.

Is this the point where we hone in on Ivanka's emails?
     
subego
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Oct 26, 2020, 06:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I still fail to see what this has to do with Joe Biden's candidacy.
The parts which directly impact Joe.

1) Hunter’s planned pitch to Burisma included access to Joe’s “advice and thinking” as part of the package.

2) The new Ukraine government was trying to extort Burisma, or failing that, destroy them. A top Burisma executive asked Hunter to use his “influence to convey a signal” this should be stopped. Edit: I should add it appears Hunter was unsuccessful, and Burisma caved to the extortion.

3) The same Burisma executive thanked Hunter for introducing him to Joe.

At the least, these fly in the face of Joe’s claim he never even discussed business with Hunter.

Further, there were plans to create a business with significant CCP interests, and Hunter was going to hold a 10% share of the total equity for Joe. In addition, there is the text where Hunter claims Joe takes half his salary.

The salacious stuff factors into this because it shows very poor judgement on Joe’s part to use an addict as his middleman, because addicts do dumb things like let the feds get their laptop.

Also, all of this, both salacious and not, is blackmail material.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 26, 2020 at 09:58 AM. )
     
subego
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Oct 26, 2020, 07:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Aaaaaaand... now I’ve seen Hunter’s dong.
I should note, AFAIK, it’s Falun Gong who are releasing the weenie pix, not Rudy and Bannon. I have no idea where FG got them from.
     
Laminar
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Oct 26, 2020, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I won't answer that but some of your recent stances make me think you are shifting fairly strongly towards the right. Why is that?
I feel like 75% of it is subego playing Devil's advocate given that every other Conservative voice here has retreated into a safe space. All that's left here is a liberal echo chamber with no one questioning some things that should probably be questioned.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Morality is also something we have little conscious control over. It just is. How I feel about the riots is pre-formulated by my morals. It just is.
That feels like a bit of a cop out. How I felt about these sorts of situations 8 years and how I feel about them today are wildly different, due to life experience, broadening of interpersonal connections, and education. My "morality" today and that of a decade ago are opposites. Morality isn't rigid and we're not slaves to it.
     
subego
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Oct 26, 2020, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I feel like 75% of it is subego playing Devil's advocate given that every other Conservative voice here has retreated into a safe space. All that's left here is a liberal echo chamber with no one questioning some things that should probably be questioned.



That feels like a bit of a cop out. How I felt about these sorts of situations 8 years and how I feel about them today are wildly different, due to life experience, broadening of interpersonal connections, and education. My "morality" today and that of a decade ago are opposites. Morality isn't rigid and we're not slaves to it.
It used to be more devil’s advocate, but less so once the riots started.

Morals can definitely change, but that tends to be a long process.

FWIW, I’m trying to do the opposite of a cop-out. I’m trying to be as honest about it as possible. I do a poor job of not being slave to my morals, and I’m not going to bullshit about it.

To be clear, admitting my lack of control is not meant as an abdication of responsibility. I’m responsible for my morals regardless.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 26, 2020 at 10:01 AM. )
     
Laminar
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Oct 26, 2020, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It used to be more devil’s advocate, but less so once the riots started.
This may be an aside, but I assume that by "the riots" you're talking about the protests against police brutality? Did we ever have a good thread here about that? I don't remember feeling like you were taking a strong stance at the time, but in hindsight apparently you have some feelings about everything that went down.
     
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Oct 26, 2020, 05:00 PM
 
Oh yes, the "riots". Those BLM protesters who got rebranded as criminals. For protesting about being killed by police a lot.

It turns out they had help with the violence.
A rightwing extremist boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to a police precinct during the George Floyd protests, federal prosecutors said.

US attorney Erica MacDonald said on Friday that she had charged Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old Texas resident, with traveling across state lines to participate in a riot. The charges are the latest example of far-right extremists attempting to use violence to escalate national protests against police brutality into an uprising against the government, and even full civil war.
     
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Oct 26, 2020, 06:02 PM
 
A friend of mine is keeping track of all the articles about white agitators (boogaloos, proud boys, regular rednecks) who planned and purposefully started shit just so they could blame black people. From throwing the first brick, starting the fires, pushing people into cops so they got arrested/beat up, etc.
     
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Oct 26, 2020, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Oh yes, the "riots". Those BLM protesters who got rebranded as criminals. For protesting about being killed by police a lot.

It turns out they had help with the violence.
And at this point almost nobody cares/remembers that this wasn‘t BLM activists, the violence perpetrated by these agitators will remain associated with the BLM movement. These incidents are so damaging to the reputation of the movement.

People tend forget about the proportions and (mis)attributions. I‘ve seen that first-hand in Chile last year. At one point you had ~15 % of the entire population on the street during the day, almost exclusively peaceful. There was looting (mostly at night), but perpetrated by a tiny, tiny sliver of the population. But if you watched the international news, all you saw was the violence, the burnt out subway stops. Chile, fortunately, voted to have another convent to adopt a new constitution last weekend (about 80 % were in favor).
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subego
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Oct 27, 2020, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
This may be an aside, but I assume that by "the riots" you're talking about the protests against police brutality? Did we ever have a good thread here about that? I don't remember feeling like you were taking a strong stance at the time, but in hindsight apparently you have some feelings about everything that went down.
Sorry I wasn’t clear. We had a three day stretch where Chicago was in chaos. Fires, looting, curfew, the Chicago Police deputizing the Latin Kings, National Guard cordons, etc.

These three days are what I’m calling “the riots”.

The visceral reaction I had to this chaos is it must be repudiated so strongly I no longer care if the repudiation comes at the expense of my other morals.

I have become attracted to positions consistent with the above, and repulsed by positions which aren’t. For example, I find myself attracted to throwing all my support behind the police, while finding anti-police sentiment repulsive.

I discovered I have no control over this unless I’m actively trying to suppress it. If I’m not, it just happens, and I don’t even realize it’s happening. My brain does a fantastic job of deluding me into thinking I am reasoning myself into conclusions, when what’s really happening is I’m starting with the conclusion and working backwards.

Again, to be clear, I do not cite lack of control as an excuse. I am responsible for my positions regardless. What I am trying to do is provide an explanation for how they came about.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 27, 2020 at 03:38 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Oct 27, 2020, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I discovered I have no control over this unless I’m actively trying to suppress it. If I’m not, it just happens, and I don’t even realize it’s happening.
ARE you actively trying to suppress it? Our lizard brains take us to some pretty predictable places if left unchecked, and various forms of media are more than happy to pour gasoline on that lizard brain fire.
     
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Oct 27, 2020, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The visceral reaction I had to this chaos is it must be repudiated so strongly I no longer care if the repudiation comes at the expense of my other morals.

I have become attracted to positions consistent with the above, and repulsed by positions which aren’t. For example, I find myself attracted to throwing all my support behind the police, while finding anti-police sentiment repulsive.

I discovered I have no control over this unless I’m actively trying to suppress it. If I’m not, it just happens, and I don’t even realize it’s happening. My brain does a fantastic job of deluding me into thinking I am reasoning myself into conclusions, when what’s really happening is I’m starting with the conclusion and working backwards.
Maybe it is easier to let emotions wash over you and drown out your objective reasoning skills, yes, but is that really the better choice? Would you want to act like that in other areas of your life? Would you want that your doctor treats you and other patients on that basis? To me the ability to keep my emotions in check is tantamount to becoming an adult to be honest.

The world is a messy place, and nothing is truly black-and-white. If something has to be truly white/good to deserve our support, nothing would ever change for the better. And it prevents you from improving anything. For example, I believe that many cops are indeed more afraid than they should be when they do traffic stops of black men. And I believe that the vast majority of them do not go out and celebrate when they kill someone in the line of duty. Rather than just letting emotions wash over you, wouldn't it be a win-win if e. g. Chicago significantly changed its training, took jobs off the police that aren't police matters and the like?

To be honest, I find your reaction quite surprising. I've had a very similar experience during my stay in Santiago de Chile last fall. I have had first-hand experience with violence, too, I was jumped by two guys with a knife and a local resident saved my skin. I literally had everything on me that was worth something, passport, residence card, credit cards, computers, cell phone, the money I received from university to reimburse me for the flight ticket, etc. But I also saw the police overreacting to university students (I almost got hit by a tear gas canister and felt a whiff of the effects — not pleasant.) I got to see the peaceful protests with the riots every day.

The peaceful protestors I talked to were appalled by the looting and the violence, and indeed, if all you had to go by was the international press, it surely looked as if peaceful protests and riots were about half-and-half. Even though a really tiny, tiny fraction of the population was responsible for the violence.

Plus, there were also plenty senseless acts of violence committed by police. Several people got blinded and/or shot for no good reason. In fact, it looked as if the situation escalated because the police tried to clamp down on the up-to-then peaceful protests in some pockets.
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subego
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Oct 28, 2020, 06:54 PM
 
@Oreo

I completely agree with what you have to say about emotions, but my rightward shift is due to my morals, not my emotions.
     
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Oct 28, 2020, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Oreo

I completely agree with what you have to say about emotions, but my rightward shift is due to my morals, not my emotions.
I find that’s this does not jive with your earlier post:
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The visceral reaction I had to this chaos is it must be repudiated so strongly I no longer care if the repudiation comes at the expense of my other morals.

I have become attracted to positions consistent with the above, and repulsed by positions which aren’t. For example, I find myself attracted to throwing all my support behind the police, while finding anti-police sentiment repulsive.
You used words like “visceral”, “to care”, “repulsed”/“repulsive” and ”attracted”, which are all associated to strong emotions and strong emotional reactions. None of them are to my mind in the moral propositions category. At least in that post you did not start your arguments from a moral proposition and then arrive at strong support for the police. It looks as if you have had a strong emotional reaction to the riots, and these emotions have changed your opinions on how to weigh issues. Put another way, it seems to me you are trying to derive moral principles from your emotional reaction to something.

That’s not always a bad thing, people, e. g. survivors of wars and so forth, often change their moral stances based on their experiences, including on what they found emotionally impactful, even traumatizing. In my personal experience many Jews who emigrated from the Soviet Union during the Cold War or shortly thereafter usually have an anti-communist, right-wing tilt for completely understandable reasons.
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subego
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Oct 28, 2020, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I find that’s this does not jive with your earlier post
This finding is mistaken.

If my choice of words mistakenly conveyed the wrong impression, consider this post (and my previous one) to be a correction.

To restate the relevant moral principle, I repudiate of the chaos I spoke of. The strength with which I hold this principle is such that it takes precedence over my other moral principles.
     
subego
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Oct 28, 2020, 10:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
ARE you actively trying to suppress it?
It depends.

I can’t suppress them on any large scale. They’re my morals. Morals are highly resistant to suppression.

I try my best to do it here, if only because when I don’t, you’re all batshit aliens to me. That’s how morals work. Morals in strong opposition to our own appear batshit.
     
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Oct 28, 2020, 10:41 PM
 
Is it ever moral to riot?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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