[milkmanchris]

Hi

Just got my 12" PB and wondering if i should get Ms Office for it or not?.

I got fed up with MS products and made the switch to Mac (finally).

I will be doing the usal sort of stuff, email mainly with a few spreadsheets maybe and some letter writing, so is the cost justified.

It seems to me that its a shame to buy an apple and have to use MS products to 'fit in' as it were.

Any alternatives you guys could reccomend would be greatly accpeted.

Cheers

Chris

and thanks to all all posters for the advice i have read b4 making the switch.

[Jonesy]

AppleWorks is a bit tired now but is capable of the things you mention. I use it when I don't need Word compatibility as the file translators are not as good as they might be.

I have not played around much with Nisus Writer or Mellel but they are both much more Mac OS X and use system resources such as spell checking and anti-aliased text as you would expect.

If you are more adventurous then you might try OpenOffice.org or NeoOffice/J. NeoOffice is the easier one to get to grips with but is a beta at the moment. Both are free but a large download.

Abiword for OS X is on the way. The current version is definitely a beta. When it is finished it looks like it will be a good Word replacement.

Spreadsheet applications are included in AppleWorks, OpenOffice and NeoOffice. There are also some standalones such as Mesa which I have looked at but never used a great deal.

You can download trial versions of Mesa, Mellel and Nisus. Have a play with them and see what you like best.

[ryju]

I use Office X 2004 and I think it's excellent, it has more features than the Windows version and seems to perform better as well. If only the same could be said for MSN Messenger though .

[thePurpleGiant]

To be honest with you, I would probably purchase MS Office anyway. It really helps to stay compatible with everyone that sends word documents in emails and whatnot - and these days, MS Office for mac is quite a nice product, and fits in quite well with your Mac.

Of course, there are alternatives, and AppleWorks used to be a good one, but it hasn't been updated in years.

[Sod Off Sadr]

I recommend it, moreso if you're a student (or have a student in the household) who is eligible for the substantial discount.

[wataru]

Before you buy Office, I highly suggest you try NeoOffice/J. It's free and is highly compatible with Office documents.

[Old Toad]

My wife and I had run Office 98 on OS 9 and under Classic for a long time. I removed it and tried a number of other applications. Some were OK others definitely not. The best that I found was AppleWorks. However, we just installed Office:mac v.x and I'm blown away with the speed and capabilities of the Word and Excel applications.

Using Microsoft is like dancing with the devil, but in this case the devil sure do dance good.

[TheIceMan]

milkmanchris: As some of the others have said, I would also recommend getting Office. I have and use Office 2003 and have heard good things about Office 2004. Fact is, we Mac users live in a Windows world. Office lets us play nicely with Windows machines. I have used Nisus Express the supposed replacement to MS Word. But boy is that a joke. Again, use what works for you. Yes, NeoOffice is free, and looks it too. You got a Mac, part of that I am assuming is for the beauty of how things look and work. Don't throw out the product just because of the name association. Evaluate it for its own qualities and judge for yourself.

[Chulo]

I've been using Mac: Office X for a while and must say it is beautiful and has most of the compatibility that's needed to work nicely with the Windows versions. Until recently I didn't think I'd need anything else until I began getting documents (actually Powerpoint presentations) that weren't working well because they were using the latest Windows version of those products. All in all though, it has worked very well.

I recently purchased Mac: Office 2004. It has received very good reviews and from all accounts it's extremely compatible. I have yet to load it onto my PBook so I can't say how well it will perform but I can't give any complaints about Office X.

Don't let the MS name sway you away. I think they've produced a good product for the Mac market. As others have previously stated, if you're not sharing many files with your Windows bretheron then try some of the free alternatives first and see how well they perform to your expectations. If they don't satisfy your needs then give MS Office a try. I'm not a Windows lover and I too switched to the Mac because I tired of the many problems associated with that platform but I think you'd be plesantly surprised with their Mac offering.

[milkmanchris]

Thanks for the input guys.

I can get the student discount, so ill probably give the test drive a try and if i like it i can save some pennies that way.

Still waiting for the PB, was supposed to collect from PC world yesterday but was let down big time, so have ordered from Apple direct should be with me in 2 weeks or so.

Thanks again

Chris

[Randman]

Even though it's M$, Office is the best of its kind out there and the Mac version is far superior to the PC version. Plus, the compatibility gains are also worth it. And if you get an educational discount, you get three licenses so you can have it on more than one computer. Or you could share the price with some friends, each getting an individual key, further lowering the price.

[JKT]

Personally, if you are only using it for the few basic operations that you listed, you would be absolutely crazy to waste your money on MS Office. It is absurdly expensive if you are not going to be using it for more than a few basic things, even with the student discount.

Even though it is still "beta", NeoOffice/J is your best bet. The reason why it is still labelled as a beta is due more to its background than it is to its functionality and stability - it is a version of the Open Source software suite called OpenOffice.org, that runs natively in OS X via a JAVA backend. The downside of this is that 1) it has a X11/Windows-ish interface which is not the prettiest and 2) it currently doesn't support drag and drop between itself and other OS X applications (cut and paste does work however). The latter is the main reason why it is still a "beta". Other than that, you are getting a very powerful Office suite for zero cost.

Edit: FWIW, OpenOffice.org is also available for OS X but it doesn't run natively in OS X - it requires the X11 environment to be installed and it runs within that, which is why I recommend NO/J over it.

[Randman]

A student discount, split three ways goes for $50 each. More than shareware, but well worth it in the long run. You may have classes that require Word and no sense mucking around with a beta of something else. Or keep one key and sell the other two, you might even get more than the original price and make a profit.
Hate to be an apologist for M$, but for an edu discount, take it. In the long run it's going to be well worth it (especially if it comes out free, or at a slight profit, for you).

[hudson1]

A couple of years ago I would have strongly suggested that you look at an alternative to Word. One that hasn't been mentioned above is Mariner Write.

However, with the current cost of MS Office, it's a much more attractive proposition than previously. For practical purposes, what MS has labeled as "Student and Teacher Edition" or whatever they call it is just a thinly veiled title for what they are effectively selling as a non-corporate use version which also doesn't have any connection to Virtual PC. Most places sell it for $130 - $150.

[JKT]

Which is still $50/$150 wasted when you don't need to spend it as there are perfectly good alternatives that cost nothing. To the original poster - try NeoOffice/J first. If it doesn't work out the way you would like, you haven't wasted a thing. If it does, then you have saved yourself a bundle of money that can be better spent on something else.

Edit: There is only one strong reason for getting MS Office and that is if you absolutely, definitively must have 100% compatibility with other Office users, and if that is so, then I'm sorry to say that even MS Office on the Mac is not something you should use as even then there are STILL compatibility issues (primarily in PowerPoint) with Windows Office.

[cpac]

Originally posted by JKT:
and if that is so, then I'm sorry to say that even MS Office on the Mac is not something you should use as even then there are STILL compatibility issues (primarily in PowerPoint) with Windows Office.

There are compatibility issues between the same versions of Office on Windows running on different machines, and definitely between different versions of windows office running on different machines, so it's not like this is only a Mac problem...

[wataru]

Originally posted by JKT:
Which is still $50/$150 wasted when you don't need to spend it as there are perfectly good alternatives that cost nothing. To the original poster - try NeoOffice/J first. If it doesn't work out the way you would like, you haven't wasted a thing. If it does, then you have saved yourself a bundle of money that can be better spent on something else.

Edit: There is only one strong reason for getting MS Office and that is if you absolutely, definitively must have 100% compatibility with other Office users, and if that is so, then I'm sorry to say that even MS Office on the Mac is not something you should use as even then there are STILL compatibility issues (primarily in PowerPoint) with Windows Office.

Well put.

People pooh-pooh the free "beta" software out there, but just realize that you have nothing to lose by trying it, whereas you have the price of Office to gain.

[Randman]

Originally posted by wataru:
whereas you have the price of Office to gain.

Unless you buy the educational version and keep one key and sell the others. Plenty of people would jump at buying Office 2004 for, say $100 per key. That would make a $50 profit PLUS Office 2004.

[gadgeteer]

Here's one for the gurus out there...
When I was a Windows user, I would create invoices (with a graphic logo) in Excel. I could drag and select all the data in that work sheet and paste it into an Outlook email. It would keep all the formatting and graphics as if it were an HTML email.

When I switched to the Mac, I was able to use that same spreadsheet template in Office X, but when I try to paste the info into a Mail.app email, it doesn't work. It just pastes a bunch of garbage. If I try to print that spreadsheet as a .PDF file, it creates a blank PDF file.

Any ideas?

Julie
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com

[wataru]

Originally posted by Randman:
Unless you buy the educational version and keep one key and sell the others. Plenty of people would jump at buying Office 2004 for, say $100 per key. That would make a $50 profit PLUS Office 2004.

I think the goal here is to provide a legal alternative to just buying Office. Are you allowed to resell unused keys?

[cpac]

Originally posted by gadgeteer:
Here's one for the gurus out there...
When I was a Windows user, I would create invoices (with a graphic logo) in Excel. I could drag and select all the data in that work sheet and paste it into an Outlook email. It would keep all the formatting and graphics as if it were an HTML email.

When I switched to the Mac, I was able to use that same spreadsheet template in Office X, but when I try to paste the info into a Mail.app email, it doesn't work. It just pastes a bunch of garbage. If I try to print that spreadsheet as a .PDF file, it creates a blank PDF file.

Any ideas?

Julie - (1st, your post is off topic, and so not likely to be picked up - you really should start a new thread for this kind of thing)

2nd - The "problem" (if you can call it that) is that Mail doesn't send HTML emails (at least as of Panther - you may be able to do this in Tiger). Your solution, which it sounds like you tried to do, what to print from Excel to .pdf and then to send that in the email. This is the right tactic to take.

If you are having problems seeing any output from excel when you try to export as .pdf - please explain exactly what steps you are taking (perhaps in a new thread, for the reasons mentioned above) and what you've tried so far. - Can you print to hard copy successfully?

[Randman]

Originally posted by wataru:
I think the goal here is to provide a legal alternative to just buying Office. Are you allowed to resell unused keys?

Technically, the educational versions are supposed to be just for students and teachers. So if you want to follow the letter of the law, sell the unused keys to students or teachers. How is that any different than 3 roommates chipping in to buy Office and each installing it on their computer?

[clarkgoble]

The #1 letdown with Word 2004 is that it still doesn't have an OSX style font chooser. (i.e. your font sets) I was really, really hoping they'd have that. With all the fonts most people have it is still a hassle picking fonts.

[wuzup101]

Hey just to chime in here. I'm also going through the same delema. I am buying a powerbook and have used office all my life while on PC. I'll still have my PC desktop at school with me but would like to have a word/excel/powerpoint type program on my PB. I have used open office in the past on several linux boxes, and while it's a decent program (great for free), it's not office (not even compared to that on a PC IMHO).

Anyway I was just looking online at the PSU computer store and I noticed they not only sold the student/teacher edition, but the also sold single lisence copies of the software. It would run me $52 to pick up a copy of Office 2004 for Mac and less than $30 to pick up v.X. Appleworks is around $40 so I think I'm going to pass and just go for 2004.

[erage]

A couple of comments:
I'm pretty sure the Student/Teacher edition license agreement does not allow reselling of unused keys.

When you talk about "cost" of software, money isn't the only consideration. Time and peace of mind are also factors. I just sat next to a doctor on a plane last weekend who said his dad spent 10 hours trying to install a free version of Linux, and then promptly had a stroke. I've not had anything as severe, but I certainly can relate. It's often easier to pay the money to get something known and move on with your life than to waste the time trying out the "free" solution. IMHO.

[Shades of Gray]

ryju wrote:
I use Office X 2004 and I think it's excellent, it has more features than the Windows version and seems to perform better as well. If only the same could be said for MSN Messenger though.

I use Office XP at work and Office 2004 at home. Word 2004 is definitely better than the Windows version. However, the same cannot be said for Excel, especially when trying to use cross-platform VBA. Some VBA routines work well, with little or no modification (but unless one knew the distinctions, it would be difficult to track down the changes needed). The VBA Reference Libraries for the Mac are embarrassing - try using the Dictionary Model in VBA - you can't because Microsoft Scripting Runtime does not exist in the Mac incarnation.

TheIceMan wrote:
I have used Nisus Express the supposed replacement to MS Word. But boy is that a joke. Again, use what works for you.

If you read carefully what they have written over the past year - Nisus Writer Express is not the new top of the line word processor. NWE 2.0 (coming soon) will greatly extend what it can do, but it still will be the word processor for the average user (think of souped up MS Word 5.1 on Cocoa). They are also in the process of building the high-end word processor, that has not been discussed much, nor has anyone seen it yet; it will have the advanced GREP features, as well as full Perl macro support (although there is some now in NWE), etc.

Randman wrote:
Even though it's M$, Office is the best of its kind out there and the Mac version is far superior to the PC version

Again, Word, yes. Excel, no.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Randman:
Technically, the educational versions are supposed to be just for students and teachers. So if you want to follow the letter of the law, sell the unused keys to students or teachers. How is that any different than 3 roommates chipping in to buy Office and each installing it on their computer?

It's not--they're both illegal.

Originally posted by erage:
When you talk about "cost" of software, money isn't the only consideration. Time and peace of mind are also factors. I just sat next to a doctor on a plane last weekend who said his dad spent 10 hours trying to install a free version of Linux, and then promptly had a stroke. I've not had anything as severe, but I certainly can relate. It's often easier to pay the money to get something known and move on with your life than to waste the time trying out the "free" solution. IMHO.

It's entirely up to the individual, but in my opinion it's worth that extra effort to save hundreds of dollars. And the whole reason we've been suggesting NeoOffice/J is because it is so easy to use and will not give you a stroke. It's a .pkg installer and a double-clickable .app, just like everything else; what could be easier?

[wuzup101]

Wataru is correct in saying that the Student/Teacher Eula would make selling your keys (even to other teachers/students) illegal. It says that it may be installed legally on 3 different computers in the same household. However, you may be able to get away with legally installing in on 3 computers (read 3 roomates) if you all live in the same appartment/dorm as "household" is a grey area.

In all honesty I wouldn't hesitate to go in 3 ways on copy with 2 other students even if they didn't live with me. M$ has enough problems with piracy... I doubt they are going to chase down college students who actually purchased their product. On a side note, as I stated above, some colleges (including mine - Penn State) allow you to buy a single lisence copy. I can get one w/ a legal key and the media for $52 you should inquire about such offers at your schools.

[madmacgames]

Even Steve Jobs recommends MS Office 2004 for the Mac. enough said.

[wuzup101]

Originally posted by madmacgames:
Even Steve Jobs recommends MS Office 2004 for the Mac. enough said.

Good point!

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by wuzup101:
On a side note, as I stated above, some colleges (including mine - Penn State) allow you to buy a single lisence copy. I can get one w/ a legal key and the media for $52 you should inquire about such offers at your schools.

A few years ago when my sister attended Penn State main campus, The Hub (I think the place was called "The Hub") was giving away copies of MS Office and other apps for free to students with ID. At the time it was Office 2000, the then most current version. I don't know if they still do this or not though, and she needed the Windows version, so I dunno if they were giving away Mac versions as well or not.

[hudson1]

Originally posted by wataru:
It's entirely up to the individual, but in my opinion it's worth that extra effort to save hundreds of dollars. And the whole reason we've been suggesting NeoOffice/J is because it is so easy to use and will not give you a stroke. It's a .pkg installer and a double-clickable .app, just like everything else; what could be easier?

NeoOffice is not intended for routine use. Here's what their website prominently displays:

As this is still a prototyping project, it is merely a proof of concept intended for software engineers to examine the methods used and hopefully provide a springboard for focusing our discussions and thoughts on the final, and arguably most complex, stages of this port.

For commercial/corporate use, yes MS Office is "hundreds of dollars". For others, it's around $130 - $150 and in many cases (on campuses) it can be $20 - $50. And is there anyone who doesn't think that MS Office is far more polished than the open source alternatives? The free alternatives are fine for many people's uses but I wouldn't recommend OpenOffice.org for my mother.

[wuzup101]

Originally posted by madmacgames:
A few years ago when my sister attended Penn State main campus, The Hub (I think the place was called "The Hub") was giving away copies of MS Office and other apps for free to students with ID. At the time it was Office 2000, the then most current version. I don't know if they still do this or not though, and she needed the Windows version, so I dunno if they were giving away Mac versions as well or not.

Never heard about this, I'll check it out though. I know we can get copies of Panther and Jag for free through the bookstore. Don't know how the heck they do this, but hey, I'll take it!

[milkmanchris]

Like i said in my earlier post, i qualify for the student discount (as a mature student here in the UK), about �90.

I only found this out while having a beer with a bod from the computer services department on campus.

My original plan was to upgrade (cheaper option i first thought) from office for windows, but he told me this wasnt possible, is this the case with all software (Adobe stuff in particular), i have emailed them but no answer as yet?

IMHO i thought an upgrade would cover any platform or is that just wishfull thinking?

[JKT]

Originally posted by milkmanchris:
Like i said in my earlier post, i qualify for the student discount (as a mature student here in the UK), about �90.

I only found this out while having a beer with a bod from the computer services department on campus.

My original plan was to upgrade (cheaper option i first thought) from office for windows, but he told me this wasnt possible, is this the case with all software (Adobe stuff in particular), i have emailed them but no answer as yet?

IMHO i thought an upgrade would cover any platform or is that just wishfull thinking?

I believe Adobe do offer cross-grade pricing (to convert from Win to Mac versions and vice versa). I'm surprised that Microsoft don't...

Quote:
"As this is still a prototyping project, it is merely a proof of concept intended for software engineers to examine the methods used and hopefully provide a springboard for focusing our discussions and thoughts on the final, and arguably most complex, stages of this port."

Which is something that Patrick (the developer of NO/J) has had on his site since he started the project and (IMO and that of many others who have been testing and using NO/J) is not valid anymore other than to protect the Mac-newbie types from installing it and wondering why it doesn't look and act like a Mac app and doesn't yet support drag and drop. I have been using NO/J for many, many months now. It is very stable, and works like a charm for the things I do with it (a little WP, opening Office documents, and a little spreadsheet work). I just don't understand this "spend lots of money and get Office" mentality when it isn't necessary - to me it smacks of blind fear of using something else just because it isn't MS Office and just because everyone else is using Office which is the exact same attitude that makes so many people buy a PC over a Mac.

milkmanchris - save yourself the �90, download NO/J and use it for a while. As a prior Windows user, you will not suffer any culture shock from it looking like a Windows app. If it doesn't work out as expected, fine - buy Office for �90. If it does, then you have saved yourself �90.

[wataru]

Originally posted by hudson1:
NeoOffice is not intended for routine use. Here's what their website prominently displays:

As this is still a prototyping project, it is merely a proof of concept intended for software engineers to examine the methods used and hopefully provide a springboard for focusing our discussions and thoughts on the final, and arguably most complex, stages of this port.

For commercial/corporate use, yes MS Office is "hundreds of dollars". For others, it's around $130 - $150 and in many cases (on campuses) it can be $20 - $50. And is there anyone who doesn't think that MS Office is far more polished than the open source alternatives? The free alternatives are fine for many people's uses but I wouldn't recommend OpenOffice.org for my mother.

First of all, there's a huge difference between NeoOffice and NeoOffice/J. Please get things straight.

Second, NeoOffice/J is plenty good enough for full-time use. Please actually try and use it before you start telling people what it's good for.

Third, it is free. You lose nothing by trying it out. So please, shut your hole and quit telling people not to try something that is free and that you yourself have not even tried.

[macaffluent]

Your are correct when you say its a shame to buy an apple and have to use MS products to 'fit in'. No one should have to do that. My choice has always been to choose the software I want, rather than the software
Bill Gates wants me to use. I am a purist and I am an financially independent entreprenuer who makes his own choices. My choice is not
to use any M$ product.

[hudson1]

Originally posted by wataru:
First of all, there's a huge difference between NeoOffice and NeoOffice/J. Please get things straight.

Second, NeoOffice/J is plenty good enough for full-time use. Please actually try and use it before you start telling people what it's good for.

Third, it is free. You lose nothing by trying it out. So please, shut your hole and quit telling people not to try something that is free and that you yourself have not even tried.

And fourth, I don't think you read my post very carefully.

No where did I say or imply that I haven't used NeoOffice/J. I most certainly have. What do you think the second advisory means Warning: NeoOffice/J is just a prototype and many features still need to be implemented. So if you are looking for something that you can use for real work, I suggest that you try the latest OpenOffice.org version. Check out the list of features and bugs before you download.?

I'm not the one writing this stuff or telling others not to use NeoOffice/J. Personally, I think it looks less like a polished Mac application than MS Word v.X. However, I never said no one shouldn't try it or use it. All I said is that I wouldn't recommend it to my mother and I think I have far more right to comment on what MY mother uses than you do. 'Nuff said.

Edit: Sorry about the double post below.

[hudson1]

Originally posted by wataru:
First of all, there's a huge difference between NeoOffice and NeoOffice/J. Please get things straight.

Second, NeoOffice/J is plenty good enough for full-time use. Please actually try and use it before you start telling people what it's good for.

Third, it is free. You lose nothing by trying it out. So please, shut your hole and quit telling people not to try something that is free and that you yourself have not even tried.

And fourth, I don't think you read my post very carefully.

No where did I say or imply that I haven't used NeoOffice/J. I most certainly have. What do you think the second advisory means Warning: NeoOffice/J is just a prototype and many features still need to be implemented. So if you are looking for something that you can use for real work, I suggest that you try the latest OpenOffice.org version. Check out the list of features and bugs before you download.?

I'm not the one writing this stuff or telling others not to use NeoOffice/J. Personally, I think it looks less like a polished Mac application than MS Word v.X. However, I never said no one shouldn't try it or use it. All I said is that I wouldn't recommend it to my mother and I think I have far more right to comment on what MY mother uses than you do. 'Nuff said.