[Simon]

OK, I am going completely bananas because I can't decide what Mac to buy and when. This is becoming ridiculous, since I can't think about anything else anymore than this freaking problem.

Basically the decission is between getting a PowerMac 867 now or waiting for the next flat panel iMac ( I won't be waiting longer than MWSF 2003).

Or more precisely:

PowerMac: Dual 867 (with GF4MX card), extra 256MB RAM, extra Pro Speakers and an Apple 17" Studio Display.

iMac: Would wait for a 19" (if that really happens...). At the moment it would have to be the 17" with an extra 256 MB RAM.

The PowerMac would cost me approx. 32% more (if I take Apple's rebate offer for buying an Apple screen with the PowerMac) which is quite a load of cash, but on the other hand I can't stand the waiting for the new iMac (if it ever comes...) and even if it does come but still only has a 17" screen I'd slap myself pretty hard (and at least a dozen times) for not just getting the PowerMac.

Before you give me any suggestions, I'd like to point out that I don't care about the SuperDrive (I don't burn DVDs), the PCI slots (I don't have cards) or a large disk (I can barely fill my old 20GB HD). On the other hand I do care about noise (this would be home machine and my g/f hates me having a loud computer turned on all time - btw does the fan on the PowerMacs turn off when it goes to sleep, i.e. does sleep make it silent?)

Pros of the PowerMac:
- Probably faster than the iMac (two G4s, more MHz, higher bus speed) in the sense that I can really feel it well in everyday life (is that really so? can anybody confirm?)
- More and easier expandable than the iMac (RAM, Video Card)
- The 17" screen would be 4:3 which I prefer more than the 16:10 of the iMac
- The Combo of the PowerMac is a lot faster than the slow SuperDrive in the iMac
- I become more flexible, since I could change my Mac in the future without throwing the display out of the window as with the iMac - thus making buying my next Mac cheaper
- I could put my external CD burner in the case's second optical bay, thus no more need for an external FireWire device.
- I could put my external backup drive in the case, thus another external drive less
- GF4MX card is AGP4x instead of 2x in the iMac. I suppose this makes graphics faster. Can somebody confirm?
- I get a 7200 RPM drive which is great compared to the iMacs 5400.

Pros of the iMac:
- Looks great! More coolness to it than the PowerMac
- It's so quiet! My g/f would love that.
- It's much cheaper.
- The screen ratio would probably be better when watching DVDs.
- If it would get the 19" screen the display would kick the 17" Studio I'd get with the PowerMac out of the water.


It all boils down to this: Should I keep waiting for a 19" iMac until MWSF 03 and pray that it happens or should I just take a plunge and spend the extra 750 dollars (which I happen to have) for a PowerMac that I can get now? It would stop the pain but if I take the PowerMac now and Apple starts selling a 19" iMac in a month I'd really feel stupid.

Can you guys help me here? Am I missing something? Thanks.

Simon

[D'Espice]

It's really a mess, isn't it?

In your case, your financial situation and/or your impatiance/patiance should decide, as well as what you need it for. Also, whether you truly need a new computer right now.
Bewcause if you don't, it's always better to wait another month of two (or even longer), given that you might get much more until them for the same money.
If you�re too impatiant, you should decide based on your profile. What do you need your new Macintosh for? Browsing the web? Modelling 3D images? Creating and editing movies? Creating websites? Playing games? Tell us what you'll need your Macintosh for, and we'll be able to help you.

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
It's really a mess, isn't it?

You bet. And even worse I'm making a fool out of myself :o among all my Linux collegues here at work because they can't understand that a hardware decission can be that emotional. Figures. They only buy grey boxes.

In your case, your financial situation and/or your impatiance/patiance should decide, as well as what you need it for. Also, whether you truly need a new computer right now.

OK, from a rational point of view (even though my emotional outbursts here don't prove it, but as a physicist I do know what being rational is ) I don't need it right now. I could wait till MWSF. That is rational. But actually I don't care about being rational here, because I'm more afraid of turning into a vegetable or becoming a psycho since my impatience is driving me nuts.

It is however also rational to say that the 19" iMac is just a rumor and there is absoluetly no guarantee that it will come by MWSF. Exactly like revised PowerMacs. They are pretty new. Why should they be revised at MSWF already?

My financial situation is not really a topic, because I wouldn't bother shelling out 750 additional bucks on a fine machine.

Now to my needs: It will be my home machine. So we are talking about web surfing, mails, compiling some UNIX code, watching DVDs, MS Office (only my g/f) and playing UT. Of course this is the kind of stuff the iMac can do, but I have come to learn 10.2 as a power-hungry beast. Who would not want windows to be snappier? Or cached web pages to appear more quickly?

[D'Espice]

Well, from this point of view I would suggest the PowerMac 867 with BTO Radeon 9700 Pro, GeForce4 Ti4600 or Radeon 9000 and at least 1 GB of RAM. In case you�re not even a little rational, get more RAM. Jaguar is a beast, the more RAM you have to better it feels.
Of course � in theory � the iMac would be fine for you as well, but I guess you�ll rather go nuts in case �
hypothetically � your new iMac will seem slow now or next year.

So get a grip on yourself and get the DP867, it�s a terrific but loud (!!!) computer which will make you and your g/f quite happy.

[Maflynn]

OSX Really takes advantage of dual processors so in theory the dual 867 should protect your investment longer, that is pay more now and the need to buy a new computer should be delayed.

As for the iMac what are the odds that a 19" will be introduced they just gave us the 17" in July. I think the next iteration will happen next MWNY but thats just a blind guess.

Mike

[Simon]

Thanks for your help.

Originally posted by D'Espice:
Well, from this point of view I would suggest the PowerMac 867 with BTO Radeon 9700 Pro, GeForce4 Ti4600 or Radeon 9000 and at least 1 GB of RAM. In case you�re not even a little rational, get more RAM. Jaguar is a beast, the more RAM you have to better it feels.

Well, a BTO graphics card would be too expensive. 750 bucks more is ok, but adding another graphics card is streching it too much. I'm not a hardcore gamer, I just play some UT for fun. I've actually been playing it up to now on a Rage128 so the 4MX will still be a nice upgrade.

Of course � in theory � the iMac would be fine for you as well, but I guess you�ll rather go nuts in case �
hypothetically � your new iMac will seem slow now or next year.

Yeah, I believe getting the PowerMac will save me a trip to the nut house because waiting until MW in January seems to be like waiting for eternity to pass.

So get a grip on yourself and get the DP867, it�s a terrific but loud (!!!) computer which will make you and your g/f quite happy.

Well, that sounds very good. Just one question about your loud with three exclamation marks. Is it that bad? I mean we are not going to sleep next to it, but if I hear it down the hall it would sure frighten me. Not to speak about my g/f which will probably make a huge fuss about the noise... So, is it really THAT bad?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
OSX Really takes advantage of dual processors so in theory the dual 867 should protect your investment longer, that is pay more now and the need to buy a new computer should be delayed.

Seems to be a very valid point in my opinion too. I have the feeling that getting a dual 867 on a faster board and with a L3 cache is a safer investment than a single 800 without cache and fast board.

As for the iMac what are the odds that a 19" will be introduced they just gave us the 17" in July. I think the next iteration will happen next MWNY but thats just a blind guess.

That is absolutely correct. I would assume that MWSF is the earliest that we could expect to see a 19" iMac if it really should come - it's still not more than a nice rumor at present. Apple normally has a six month cycle, so I'd expect to see something done to the iMacs by MWSF, but it could as well be just a moderate speed bump. After all the 19" display could be regarded as a major bump and therefore not come until July 2003 - one year after the 17" was introduced.

[D'Espice]

Well, I havn�t had yet the possibility to listen to one of these things in a silent environment by myself, however it�s common knowlegde that it can be as loud as a vacuum cleaner.
You might wanna check it out in your local Apple store and decide for yourself whether it�s too loud for you or not. For me, it definitely is. My PowerMac G4/350 Sawtooth seems quite loud already, the new PowerMacs presumably are more than twice as loud. So check it out in your local Apple store before you get a vacuum cleaner

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
So check it out in your local Apple store before you get a vacuum cleaner

Well, I will in four hours. The only problem is that my dealer has like four of them in his store and there are normally tons of people there as well as all kinds of other stuff that makes hell of a noise. It's really not easy to judge the level of noise in that environment.

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by Simon:


Well, I will in four hours. The only problem is that my dealer has like four of them in his store and there are normally tons of people there as well as all kinds of other stuff that makes hell of a noise. It's really not easy to judge the level of noise in that environment.

I know, that's why I said I havn't had the possibility to listen to it in a silent environment yet
But my judgement, even in the local Apple store where the noise level is pretty high, was: Damn, that thing is way too loud for me.
Maybe you should compare it with the eMac or iMac, latter being completely silent (some would say inaudible), first making a lot of noise as well.

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
Maybe you should compare it with the eMac or iMac, latter being completely silent (some would say inaudible), first making a lot of noise as well.

Yeah, I'll try to do that. Maybe I can also try to shut it off and then on again to compare.
Do you know if it turns silent (i.e. fans and disks off) when in sleep. Or does just the disk and monitor turn off?

I really feel tempted to take it home when I go get a look, but if Apple puts out a 19" iMac for 1700 dollars within the next two months I will probably have to shoot myself.

[D'Espice]

AFAIK, it turns completely silent when in sleep, at least my Sawtooth does.

PS: You can definitely turn it off and on again. Don't even bother asking, just do it
PPS: The odds of Apple releasing a 19" iMac in the next two monts for $1700 are little slimmer than Microsoft going out of business or Steve switching to Windows.

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
AFAIK, it turns completely silent when in sleep, at least my Sawtooth does.

Congrats Sir, you have just made Apple earn tons of my cash.

Thanks for the help. Can't wait to get it.

[D'Espice]

You're welcome.

But for your own sake, give everything you can a trial in the store before you get it. Even performance wise, give everything a shot first.

[littlegreenspud]

My Quicksilver Dual Gig is silent when asleep. All fans, drives etc stop.

[Johnnyboysmac]

Well Simon, I just had to write a few lines here. Hey, we seem to have the same disease! At least you have a girlfriend to drive nuts with indecision and general tearing your hair out. Me, I just swear quietly in silence, and ponder the Mac future. :-)

I'm trying to make the same decision, although not as 'pressured' as you, as I'm still saving the $$, but my thoughts/arguments pros and cons are much like yours twixt the 867 dualie and the 17'/19" hopefully_to_be Imac.

I went to a quiet Apple store the other day, and had a good play around on the 17" Imac, and the 867 dualie with 17" studio LCD display. I just did some web surfin, checked out things like Itunes, Iphoto, etc. The dualie definitely seemed, well, snappier, but not like night and day. I'm not patient waiting for things to happen with a computer, and from that perspective the 867 was better, but not so much so as to make the Imac feel like a seal swimming in molasses. Things like the dualie opening Itunes in 5 bounces, and the Imac in 9. That kind of thing. Outside of a direct A/B comparison, I don't think you'd notice the difference, unless you were doing stuff that was much more processor intensive IMHO.

The 17" Studio LCD, with its 160x160 angle of view, v's the 90x120 of the 17" Imac, had considerably less colour shift, as you moved your head about re right angles to the screen, but of course with it's adjustable display, this wasn't a problem for the Imac either. I thought the height of the 16:10 aspect ratio Imac screen could've been a little higher, for less document scrolling etc, which is where the 19" would be nicer, but personally I prefered the Widescreen to work with, than the 4:3 studio display. It just seemed to have a much nicer 'shape' to work with IMHO.

So, speed, well I think the Imac has enough. How much do you need? Do you need a racing car to drive to work?

Display, well I preferred the widescreen, but you may feel differently.

Noise. Here the 867 has a real problem, FOR ME, in the context of a quiet home environment. I've heard it several times in noisy, and now in a quiet mac shop environment (I was the only person in the store at the time apart from one staff member) It is quite noisy. I heard it on the shelf next to the display, which was annoying to say the least after 20 mins or so, and got the shop assistant to put it on the floor, under the display shelf. It was a lot better, but still noticeable, and given that there was some traffic noise from passing city traffic, I've no doubt that in a quiet bedroom such as what I'm in now, at the dead of night, it'd be an issue with which I'm reluctant to have to contend.

I tried putting it to sleep, and can assure you that the display, HD, and fans all shut down when it's in sleep mode.

Personally, I just felt that the slight extra performance doing the sort of things I'd likely be doing with it (similar to you) didn't justify the cost of the tower for my purposes. Yes more power is also good, but I would argue that a BMW offers a nicer overall driving experience, than a hotted up Ford. That's maybe not a fair analogy, unless absolute straight line speed means everything, but if you want balance of design, performance, style, space saving, and unobtrusive quietness IN THE HOME, then I figure that's what the Imac is designed for, and arguablly does that particular task better than the tower. UNLESS you NEED, or simply want the extra performance.

If assessing a computer only came down to speed, then we'd probably all have the fastest computer no matter what, and to hell with everything else. The fact that the Imac has been such a huge success, says a lot about what priorities many people place upon a computer for the home, and not all of those people are mindless consumers either. Towers definitely have there place for professionals, and the serious home hobbyist/computer enthusiast, or those who simply must have the fastest, no matter what. But one pays a price in size, bulk, noise, and heat (not to be discounted in a hot summer climate like OZ and no airconditioning in the apartment)

Lastly longevity. I too think that the tower definitely COULD last longer than an Imac. Better initial performance and expandability/upgradability giving it a longer useful lifespan. In say four years time, with upgrades to say the CPU, grahpics cards, more than 1mb of ram etc, the tower would be the better performer than the Imac. BUT, by that time, given the rate of advancement of technology, it's also likely to be outperformed by the then current Imac, and with no doubt new and intriguing features that would make compelling reasone to simply purchase a new machine period, rather than trying to string the old one along, unless you were really strapped for cash.

Anyway, rant over.

I probably haven't helped much, but maybe by adding some of the thoughts going through my mind about this, it might at least shed a bit more light upon your own.

I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear what way you eventually decide to swing.

One last thought - there is life before, through, and after making computer buying decisions. I think it's called something like sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

My advice: Don't worry too much, and spend some quality time with your girlfriend, things will become much clearer when you step back from it all for a while..

Good Luck, and lets know how it goes

[TimmyDee51]

I was in the exact same situation myself about a month ago. Did I go for the 17" iMac or bite the bullet and go for the dual 867? I'm pleased to say that I went with the PowerMac, a 17" studio display, and a Radeon 9000 Pro. My 512 MB stick is on it's way from Crucial and the tower should be here Tuesday. I'm trying to sleep between now and then.

Congratulations on your purchase.

[Simon]

Well guys, thanks for those extensive replies. It's great to see that others here were in a similar situation and we can share thoughts on such an expensive decission.

OK, I just came back from my Apple dealer. Damn! Now I am really in deep sh!t.

The dual was there, the 17" Studio and the 17" iMac. All nicely set up side by side. I started buy ripping open the case of the PowerMac. A beauty. The massive heat sink is impressive. I closed it and started kneeling down with my ear to the case from every side (I must have looked terribly stupid) There were tons of people there and it was quite noisy but the PowerMac seemed not loud at all. The guy from the shop warned me however. He said that if the additional fan kicks in and you keep on stressing performance it will start to sound like a vacuum cleaner. Now that sucks. That is definately too loud for my g/f.
I then started opening apps, closing them dragging windows and so forth. I then switched to the iMac. Hell, such a beauty. Why can't I just have both? And quiet. It is silent. Like my G3 iMac. Great.

But, and now this is where I almost fainted. The iMac was quite the same speed. Stuff seemed quite similar - the only difference seemed to be that the PM was a tad more snappy, but really just a tad. They both only had the base 256RAM which is of course not enough, but WTH soesn't the PM blow the iMac out of the Water? Where are those additional 900MHz? Where is the 133 bus? Where the DDR? I was really disapointed. I mean really. Made me feel pretty sucky. I felt zitch. Nada. Nothing. Of course I'd have seen a difference in rendering 3D models and heavy stuff like that, but I never do that, so why even test it? The stuff I do every day performed pretty much exactly the same on both computers.

OK, now I am really a fool. After trying to justify spending almost a thousand bucks more, I have to admit that they actually aren't justified. I get a fast and elegant computer with a great screen for much less than the PowerMac.

The missing expandability will be a problem when I want to upgrade in two years, but I guess I'll just have to buy a new machine when time comes.

Does anybody here care to tell me why the performance of the PowerMac sucked so badly compared to the iMac? Because actually I still prefer one detail on the PowerMac: It's got a Combo. The combo is much faster at burning CDs. I hate SuperDrives. Expensive and slow if you never burn DVDs. Or do you think my dealer would sell me a 17" iMac but swap the SuperDrive with a Combo. After all, the SuperDrive is more expensive...

And then a last little gripe with the iMac. The screen could be higher. The 900 pixels is so tight. The width is great, but I really gain almost no high compared to the 1024*768 screen I already have. Or, does this point to actually wait for the rumored 19" iMac once again. How long should I wait. Is anybody here guessing that it won't come at least till MWNY if it doesn't come for Christmas buying, i.e. if it were introduced in November...

Oh jee, so many doubts.
I am an idiot.

[D'Espice]

Oh boy, it's a bigger mess you're in then I initially thought.

If you can't justify spending the money on the PowerMac then don't do it, it's that simple. OTOH, you would love to kick your own butt in case you realize that the PowerMac would have been the better choice. But if the big fan kicks in, the Mac really sounds like a vacuum cleaner, which is too loud for you and will truly be a pain in your and your g/f neck.

I think it would be best for you to get a 17" iMac, the 19" iMac is nowhere to be seen soon, not before Macworld New York next year anyway (my guess).
But maybe you should wait at least until Macworld San Francisco, to see whether I was right or not. Because I'm afraid you might kill me if Steve really comes out with a 19" iMac at MWSF And if he doesn't, get a 17" iMac, you already said that you can wait until then.

[PJ G4]

I am in the same situation as Simon. I am trying to decide between a G4 plus 17" Studio Display and the 17"iMac. The one thing that I DO NOT want is a noisy computer. I once had a loud computer that sounded like a hair dryer and it drove me nuts. I have another question for the board which may be another option. Since it is unanimous that the new DP G4's are noisy what about the previous model such as the 800 Mhz version. Were they noisy as well. If not maybe you would be able to purchase one and have almost the same as the 17" iMac. If you do not want the Superdrive due to the slower CD writing speed you can get it with the combo drive. What were the specs on these older models and what kind of graphics cards did they have. Is the nVidia card better than the ATI Radeon. Thank you very much for all the posts on the monitors and fan noise. This has helped a great deal in trying to decide. I live in Mexico and we do not have Apple Stores or dealers who let you demo the units. The new 17" iMacs are supposed to arive in a week. Your opinions will help me decide which is my best option. My needs are the same as Simon. Thanks in advance.

[aloner]

I went through the same decison process. After comparing the specs of both of them, I bought the 867DP with a LaCie Electron19BlueIII monitor.

The iMac is similar to a laptop without the mobility: great looks and cool ,but limited performance (100MHz bus, AGP2x, 5400rpm drive) and limited upgrade options (add RAM only).

The 867DP is noisy but much faster (www.barefeats.com) and with lots of upgrade options.

[Mac Zealot]

I can almost guarantee there will be no 19" imac.

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
Oh boy, it's a bigger mess you're in then I initially thought.

You see? I told ya.

I think it would be best for you to get a 17" iMac, the 19" iMac is nowhere to be seen soon, not before Macworld New York next year anyway (my guess).

I believe this as well. So it's basically a choice between getting the PowerMac now or getting the 17" iMac now. I'm not holding off anymore. I just need to know which one to take.

But maybe you should wait at least until Macworld San Francisco, to see whether I was right or not. Because I'm afraid you might kill me if Steve really comes out with a 19" iMac at MWSF

No, I'd only kill myself, I wouldn't mutilate the ones who tried to give me psychotherapy.

And if he doesn't, get a 17" iMac, you already said that you can wait until then.

That would probably be the most rational. But you see I've been already holding off for a month and I find it difficult to justify waiting until MWSF (remember that would just be tha announce - it could be March until stuff really gets shipped) too see that the clock rate goes from 800MHz to 933MHz.

I will be going to the shop today again - this time with my g/f. I'l let her take a look at the vacuum cleaner fan. Maybe she'll have a heart attack, maybe not. The way it is now, it's just tied, damn!
The iMac is silent and cheap. The PowerMac has a nicer display (ratio) and maybe more life.

I hope we can solve this problem soon. I seriously need to get a life.

[Simon]

Originally posted by aloner:
The iMac is similar to a laptop without the mobility: great looks and cool ,but limited performance (100MHz bus, AGP2x, 5400rpm drive) and limited upgrade options (add RAM only)

Limited upgrade options, true.

Limited performance... Well, yes and no. You see, looking at the specs we would all have to take the PowerMac because next to its whole impressive layout, the iMac looks like a shopping cart compared to a Mercedes. But check this in real life! Go to the store and try them side by side. I was extremely scared when I realized that the iMac's performance was just a tiny tad below the PowerMac's in simple but everyday tasks. If you think the PowerMac will load web pages faster, switch between apps more quickly or make everything completely smooth and snappy... well think again.

I have no idea where all those specs went to in the PowerMac but I was really underimpressed with it's real life performance compared to the consumer machine for a thousand bucks less.

That makes ya think. Life's a b!tch.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
I can almost guarantee there will be no 19" imac.

Would you care to elaborate on your use of the word "guarantee"?

Is this just your prediction or do you have hard evidence? Or better, insider connections? I don't mind personal predictions and make them a lot too, but I'd just like to know if it's one or not when I am on the verge of shelling out 3000 dollars.

[OreoCookie]

I'd go for the PowerMac.

You seem like a PowerUser, so go for it.

[Simon]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I'd go for the PowerMac.

You seem like a PowerUser, so go for it.

Well, that's what I just did.

Yes!

We just came back from the shop and we bought it!

Here goes: PowerMac G4 dual 867MHz with an additional half a Gig of RAM, an Apple Studio Display 17" and the Apple Pro Speakers.

I am completely high. I finally did a bit more thorough testing and the machine was great. It is sure a bit loud, but after seeing how it opens Classic in just a couple of secs while playing a song, ripping another from a CD and playing three QuickTime movies all at the same time without showing a rainbow cursor I was sold on it.

It's supposed to be here next week. Can't wait till we get it. The price is insane and I can't believe I just spent so much money, but it will probably be well worth it.

I'm counting the hours for it to arrive.

Thanks to all of you here who helped me with the decission making and gave me all the necessary psychotherapy.

[aloner]

Originally posted by Simon:


Limited upgrade options, true.

Limited performance... Well, yes and no. You see, looking at the specs we would all have to take the PowerMac because next to its whole impressive layout, the iMac looks like a shopping cart compared to a Mercedes. But check this in real life! Go to the store and try them side by side. I was extremely scared when I realized that the iMac's performance was just a tiny tad below the PowerMac's in simple but everyday tasks. If you think the PowerMac will load web pages faster, switch between apps more quickly or make everything completely smooth and snappy... well think again.

I have no idea where all those specs went to in the PowerMac but I was really underimpressed with it's real life performance compared to the consumer machine for a thousand bucks less.

That makes ya think. Life's a b!tch.

Well, the iMac performance might look a tiny tad below the PowerMac to you, but metrics say otherwise.

http://www.barefeats.com/pmddr3.html

I�ve thought about it again, and I�ll go for the PowerMac. I am looking forward to playing Unreal Tournament 2003 in the PowerMac and buying a ATI Radeon 9700 next year.

Yes, I guess life is a b*tch.

[Simon]

Originally posted by aloner:
Well, the iMac performance might look a tiny tad below the PowerMac to you, but metrics say otherwise.

Oh, I know all those comparisons. I read as much benchmarks as I could find on the web. It was just that in the shop I wasn't blown away by the PowerMac when doing simple everday stuff. When I tried it again today I managed to put more load on the box and then it really showed its power off.

I am looking forward to playing Unreal Tournament 2003 in the PowerMac and buying a ATI Radeon 9700 next year.

Oh yeah. I think I should do that as well.

[D'Espice]

Congrats on your purchase, you sure will have a lot of fun with it. Especially when the big fan kicks in and your Mac transmutes into a vacuum cleaner

[OreoCookie]

Congrats, good buy. I envy you

[Cindy74]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
Congrats on your purchase, you sure will have a lot of fun with it. Especially when the big fan kicks in and your Mac transmutes into a vacuum cleaner

I bought the 867 yesterday. The "vacuum cleaner" has only kicked in once in tha time and Ive had it on all day. Its 85 degress outside too.

The noise that bothers me is the constant whirring of the power supply fans. I AM getting used to it however. I was pretty upset with it last night but today I have calmed down and begun to use this machine which is super fast.

I was going to swap out the fans but have since changed my mind. When I get all my files and everything moved over I am going to wind up with it on the floor which I think will help. Ask me in a month

[Johnnyboysmac]

Hey, Congratulations Simon on making a decision for the 867. There's no doubt it's the superior performing machine to the Imac, my only personal caveat being the noise factor. Without wishing to put a damper on things in anyway, would be interested in hearing from both you and Cindy, how things develop re the noise. It's still the one thing that puts me off personally, and just so very hard to judge, and try and be objective about.

But again, congratulations, and I am envious.

Lets know how it all goes.

Cheers

[Simon]

Originally posted by Johnnyboysmac:
Without wishing to put a damper on things in anyway, would be interested in hearing from both you and Cindy, how things develop re the noise. It's still the one thing that puts me off personally, and just so very hard to judge, and try and be objective about.
But again, congratulations, and I am envious.
Lets know how it all goes.

Thanks for all those congrats guys.

I will post my initial experiences with this gigaflop vacuum cleaner as soon as it gets here. I will be placing it on the floor next to my desk, so I hope that will make it less bothering than having it next to the screen with the fans at ear height.

I will aslo be putting in a second disk and CD burner. Up to know I had these in external cases hooked up through FireWire. I'm anxious to see if these additional devices will heat the machine more and thus make the big fan kick in more often. At least the burner shouldn't have too much influence as long as it is not in use. The second disk however could produce some additional heat... I'll see and post my experiences.

I have one little question concerning the second disk. I could mount it in the back beside the original disk and hook it up to the ATA-100 bus as a slave (original drive is the master). Or, I could mount it in front and hook it up to the ATA-66 as a master (I think both optical drives will be on a ATA-33 as master/slave since these drives don't need the high speeds of ATA-66 or ATA-100). Which is better? Is it better to have the drives on different ATA busses to give each one more bandwidth or is should they both share the ATA-100 bus because it is faster?

And finally, does anybody here have a link to some Apple documentation how to add a second optical drive or additional disks. It's surely not difficult but I'd prefer having some documentation just for sure...

[Simon]

Originally posted by Simon:
And finally, does anybody here have a link to some Apple documentation how to add a second optical drive or additional disks. It's surely not difficult but I'd prefer having some documentation just for sure...

Ooops. Just found it.

In case anybody is interested, here it is

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by Simon:
[...] I have one little question concerning the second disk. I could mount it in the back beside the original disk and hook it up to the ATA-100 bus as a slave (original drive is the master). Or, I could mount it in front and hook it up to the ATA-66 as a master (I think both optical drives will be on a ATA-33 as master/slave since these drives don't need the high speeds of ATA-66 or ATA-100). Which is better? Is it better to have the drives on different ATA busses to give each one more bandwidth or is should they both share the ATA-100 bus because it is faster? [...]

It doesn't really matter which one you choose, the harddrive will deliver it's full performance on both. Since the first harddrive connected to the ATA100 controller definitely won't take up more than 35 MB/s of these 100 MB/s, there are 65 MB/s left for the second harddrive, which is exactly what is available on the ATA66 controller.

[lx]

All you guys being massively concerned over noise..... it's actually very funny indeed... especially when the Wintel trolls turn up to hijack the threads..

Basically no Mac makes anywhere as much noise as a modern PC. I like quiet machines, in fact I recently took the GF3 out of my 1 GHz Cube so it was quieter. However my QS dual gig sits next to 3 PCs in my office. Two of those PCs are dual processor server thangs with multiple SCSI disks. Vacuum cleaner is not the word (s).

The other PC is a new cheap thing I picked up today - a P4 2.4 GHz DDR machine. It has a whopping fan on the CPU, a large PSU fan and another big fan on the case. The heat extracted is significantly more than my QS dual gig.

If you're putting your Mac in your bedroom and running it 24/7 (like I did with my Cube) then yes, quiet running is an essential. But if not, then forget it as a problem. Mac sleep works properly (i.e. the drives and fans stop). If you're running it as a server, then get a Cube

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by lx:
All you guys being massively concerned over noise..... it's actually very funny indeed... especially when the Wintel trolls turn up to hijack the threads..

Basically no Mac makes anywhere as much noise as a modern PC. I like quiet machines, in fact I recently took the GF3 out of my 1 GHz Cube so it was quieter. However my QS dual gig sits next to 3 PCs in my office. Two of those PCs are dual processor server thangs with multiple SCSI disks. Vacuum cleaner is not the word (s).

The other PC is a new cheap thing I picked up today - a P4 2.4 GHz DDR machine. It has a whopping fan on the CPU, a large PSU fan and another big fan on the case. The heat extracted is significantly more than my QS dual gig.

If you're putting your Mac in your bedroom and running it 24/7 (like I did with my Cube) then yes, quiet running is an essential. But if not, then forget it as a problem. Mac sleep works properly (i.e. the drives and fans stop). If you're running it as a server, then get a Cube

Well, I can't agree with that, there are lot of quiet and powerful Wintel computers.
And FYI, I need silence to concentrate, every noise is annoying when I'm programing or writing my reviews/articles. That's why I can't forget about the noise

[Simon]

Originally posted by D'Espice:

Well, I can't agree with that, there are lot of quiet and powerful Wintel computers.
And FYI, I need silence to concentrate, every noise is annoying when I'm programing or writing my reviews/articles. That's why I can't forget about the noise

Have you thought of wearing ear plugs? I mean, it may sound stupid, but if you want a powerful Mac, but need absolute silence I suppose that would do the job. In basic training we wore ear plugs for shooting, so I guess they would do the job well enough when it's just about the humming of a fan...

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by Simon:


Have you thought of wearing ear plugs? I mean, it may sound stupid, but if you want a powerful Mac, but need absolute silence I suppose that would do the job. In basic training we wore ear plugs for shooting, so I guess they would do the job well enough when it's just about the humming of a fan...

Honestly, I thought about that. But then I wouldn't hear the phone ringing of somebody calling me. As for now, my Mac is fast enough for what I need it for and quiet enough (PMac G4/350 AGP).
My next one will be either an iMac (which IMO is terrific, noisewise) or more likely simply a PowerLogix upgrade CPU for my current Mac, which will make it as fast as the iMac

I really don't want to wear ear plugs during work, all I want is a powerful but silent computer. Come on, be serious: if it's possible with a Pentium 4 / 2 GHz, then it surely has to be possible with a DP867 I'm waiting for the day, that Steve announces the new, inaudible PowerMac G5

[Dell Switcher]

As a potential switcher from many years of PC (the latest being a Dell from Hell), your question and numerous responses were very helpful. I too am concerned about the noise since my hearing is more senstive than the average. Most of my work is with Excel, Word, and Internet with constant mult-tasking about 8-10 hrs daily. I do some generate music CD's as well as extensive backup using CDRW. With the extensive multi-tasking, will the IMAC 17 with much RAM be adequate? I constantly switch from worksheets/letters to the Internet to check news, stocks, etc as well as do research.

My current PC is XPS B800r which is Pentium 3 with 256 RDRAM and clock speed of 800MHz

[D'Espice]

Yes, the 17" iMac with at least 768MB of RAM will do a great, noiseless job.

[Dell Switcher]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
Yes, the 17" iMac with at least 768MB of RAM will do a great, noiseless job.

If I do go with the iMac, I would plan to have 1G of RAM. But, I will need to use some PC programs (limited basis only) via Virtual PC for Win98. Plus, I would use the MS Office (Mac version) extensively. Would these applications as well as extensive multi-tasking be handled by iMac 17? And, how would the speed be versus PIII (800MHz)???

[TimmyDee51]

The 17" iMac should handle those tasks easily. It'll be plenty fast enough for you. VPC might be a little slow, but nothing unbearable, especially if you're only using it occasionally. If you're asking about the speed of the iMac in comparison to the PIII, it'll be fast. I wouldn't worry about that.

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by Dell Switcher:


If I do go with the iMac, I would plan to have 1G of RAM. But, I will need to use some PC programs (limited basis only) via Virtual PC for Win98. Plus, I would use the MS Office (Mac version) extensively. Would these applications as well as extensive multi-tasking be handled by iMac 17? And, how would the speed be versus PIII (800MHz)???

If you are going to have 1 GB of RAM in the iMac, then running pretty much anything will be fine.

I use Microsoft Office v.X 10.1 on a G4 800 (but with a 133 bus, not 100 like the iMac) and with 512 MB RAM just fine, no speed problems as all (their shouldn't be for a $1,600 machine thats 6 months old).

If you run Virtual PC 5.0.4 with Windows 98 SE, make sure you give it at least 256 MB RAM inside VPC, and it should run like a 450 MHz Pentium II PC.

As for the speed of the iMac in Mac OS X vs. a 800 MHz Pentium III, just make sure you do get the RAM upgrade (more than 512 total) and use Chimera (latest nightly build) as your web browser.

[ARK]

I would go dual G4. If you wanted to expand your computer you can. If you wanted to do video and photo editing you can do it faster. If you wanted to add a second monitor just for kicks you can. If you wanted more cool factor buy the white keyboard and mouse. You can always tune out any noise that comes from a computer with speakers and some nice soft music coming from iTunes. I bought a Dual Gig Quicksilver when it was being phased out after the DDR's came out and I have never looked back at the iMac.

I waited and waited for atleast 3 years till I finally got a computer and Im happy with my decision. Now go out and buy a Dualie and be happy with your decision.

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by ARK:
I would go dual G4. If you wanted to expand your computer you can. If you wanted to do video and photo editing you can do it faster. If you wanted to add a second monitor just for kicks you can. If you wanted more cool factor buy the white keyboard and mouse. You can always tune out any noise that comes from a computer with speakers and some nice soft music coming from iTunes. I bought a Dual Gig Quicksilver when it was being phased out after the DDR's came out and I have never looked back at the iMac.

I waited and waited for atleast 3 years till I finally got a computer and Im happy with my decision. Now go out and buy a Dualie and be happy with your decision.

This, of course, is true if, and only if, you're not disturbed by the noise of the QS. Come on, be seriuos. Of course you can tune out the system noise a little, but it'll be much quieter with the iMac
Personally, I'd never get a QS of DDR-RAM PowerMac, simply because they make way too much noise for me. Maybe it's faster, but at which price?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Simon:
I will post my initial experiences with this gigaflop vacuum cleaner as soon as it gets here.

OK guys. It finally arrived yesterday.

It is a totally freaking great Mac! I absoluetly love it.

I posted my first experiences with this holy beast (including the noise problem as well as problem getting an additional CDRW to work) right here.

Thanks again for all your help with the decission making!