[Dakarʒ]

'Jigger what' just doesn't have the same feel to it.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Fixed your comma error. HA!

Error?

[Oisín]

had a friend from Sweden. She could write better than many people who grew up here, yet English was her second language. I know lots of people like this. I guy I used to know from Africa, another girl from Italy, and a few other non-native English speakers somehow, someway, figured out the intracasies our language and are BETTER at it than a lot of the retards who live here.

That’s quite common. It’s much easier to learn the intricacies (<- ) of a foreign language that those of your own. The reason for this is simple: when learning a foreign language, you learn it according to rules, systems, frameworks, and such handy things. You learn (if you’re a language person and understand or ‘get’ the basics of these rules and systems, of course) that most of the language you’re learning fits perfectly into these frameworks, and that makes learning it properly—and learning to write and spell it properly—a lot easier.

Learning one’s native language, on the other hand, is a question of mimicking what one hears and slowly getting an intuitive grasp of what ‘sounds good’ and what doesn’t. Very big difference.

If you learn a second language well enough to be able to write it as well as, or even better than, native speakers, you’ve obviously got a talent for learning languages, and you’ve obviously also paid attention in grammar class. For writing your own native tongue, though, you can easily sleep through 90% of classes and stare dazily out the window through all your grammar lessons—you’ll still be able to speak it, and if you’ve got any basic schooling under your belt, you’ll still be able to write it, albeit hardly flawlessly.

[olePigeon]

It also has to do with basic communication. If you're dealing with a foreign language, then it's important for you and the people you communicate with to be concise. It seems like half the people on this forum just shrug and say, "You know what I mean." They're and their are two completely different words with two completely different meanings, even if phonetically they sound similar. For someone not familiar with a language, it is important to make that distinction especially if their native language doesn't have a literal translation.

[Cadaver]

In grade-school, I could barely write a complete sentence. Today, as a published author (scientific), I get really annoyed when common, grade-school grammatical mistakes are made (i.e., you're/your, their/there and misplaced apostrophes). I'm not perfect, but that is what copy editors are for. But at least I know the difference between "you're" and "your."

Still can't spell worth a damn, though.

[aristotles]

Yes, you are too anal. Get some therapy for it because the rest of us should not be punished because your parents rushed your toilet training.

Find a paper bag and breath into it until you calm down. Then look for a good shrink in the yellow pages.

[awaspaas]

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by awaspaas 

Free Classic Mac OS Software? WTF?

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Free Classic Mac OS Software? WTF?

And look it's not just Mac it's MAC. ahhh hahaha

[idyll]

not really... handwriting too. the richer the person i've met the worse their spelling AND handwriting!

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

And look it's not just Mac it's MAC. ahhh hahaha

Uh, they're all capitalized…

[malvolio]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Reading books= you become a better writer. Period.

Um, no. I know people who read tons of (mostly cruddy) books, and still can't write a single literate sentence.
Write a lot and have it criticized by someone who knows what they're talking about = you become a better writer. The best teacher I had in high school was this little old guy who was one year away from retirement. He made everyone in his advanced English class write a multipage essay every week, and his grading of the essays addressed not only spelling and grammar, but also meaning and structure.
By the way, an error that drives me nuts is using "and" instead of "an." That takes real stupidity.

[Oisín]

By the way, an error that drives me nuts is using "and" instead of "an." That takes real stupidity.

No, it takes fingers working faster than the brain. I often catch myself automatically adding an extra d to the word ‘an’. As far as I’m aware, I catch all them and correct them; but who knows how many I don’t notice, that then end up in the end result?


Oh, and that image is exactly why even the ‘small stuff’ like apostrophes and ‘your/you’re’ is important: there are so many of them on that sign that I had to read and re-read it three or four times to get any kind of sense whatsoever out of it.

Of course, putting “Kay’s Two” before “Kay’s Casino” (presumably “Kay’s One”) doesn’t help, either.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

No, it takes fingers working faster than the brain. I often catch myself automatically adding an extra d to the word ‘an’.

Yeah, if you're typing fast enough, there's no way you'll be consciously noticing every keystroke. Sometimes your motor memory fails you.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by malvolio 

Um, no. I know people who read tons of (mostly cruddy) books, and still can't write a single literate sentence.
Write a lot and have it criticized by someone who knows what they're talking about = you become a better writer. The best teacher I had in high school was this little old guy who was one year away from retirement. He made everyone in his advanced English class write a multipage essay every week, and his grading of the essays addressed not only spelling and grammar, but also meaning and structure.
By the way, an error that drives me nuts is using "and" instead of "an." That takes real stupidity.

Sorry, I disagree 182% with you. Reading made me a better writer. Maybe it doesn't work if you happen to be a gotard (not you, but the gotard who reads books and doesn't learn a damn thing).

[malvolio]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

No, it takes fingers working faster than the brain. I often catch myself automatically adding an extra d to the word ‘an’. As far as I’m aware, I catch all them and correct them; but who knows how many I don’t notice, that then end up in the end result?

I'll buy that excuse for an occasional mistake, but I've seen posts where people use "and" repeatedly, in all occurrences of what should have been "an."
Those people are ignorant.

[andi*pandi]

I think reading a lot made me a better writer. It wasn't until college and copy and proof class, however, that I learned WHY I was a good writer.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Sorry, I disagree 182% with you. Reading made me a better writer. Maybe it doesn't work if you happen to be a gotard (not you, but the gotard who reads books and doesn't learn a damn thing).

What does one do if they can't read?

[wolfen]

Reading makes decent writers better. A person who has no aptitude (or very little) isn't going to improve much by reading a lot. But like anything else: reading is a matter of taste. So even super duper crappy writers can find someone who loves their stuff. Where talent is lacking, popularity will suffice.

[Oisín]

Where talent is lacking, popularity will suffice.

Cf. Dan Brown.

What does one do if they can't read?

What does one do if who can’t read?

I'll buy that excuse for an occasional mistake, but I've seen posts where people use "and" repeatedly, in all occurrences of what should have been "an."
Those people are ignorant.

If they seriously don’t know the difference, then yes, that’s ignorance. If they’d make the same mistake when handwriting, say.

Otherwise, the ‘and’s could still just be typos stemming from a lack of proofreading, even if they’re many in numbers.

[red rocket]

There are readers and readers.

I have stumbled across this list of the "top" 100 books since 1965 recently, and there was some real garbage in there. In the preface was contained the titbit that the majority of readers are women between thirty and sixty who read indiscriminately, anything from crime novels to chick books.

That is the state of affairs.

As a consequence, ninety-nine per cent of published books are garbage. Readers are stupid, and if you actually manage to publish something that is both masterfully written, intelligent and provocative, chances are the idiot majority of readers will ignore it and buy some inane crap instead.

I read a lot because I'm from a family of book lovers.
I'm a grammar and style nazi because I view language as a weapon.
Weapons need care.

[centerchannel68]

If you're so superior in reading and writing, why did you spell percent 'per cent'? And tidbit, 'titbit'?

[Oisín]

‘Per cent’ is just as correct as ‘percent’ (and historically more correct, as it reflects the origin, Latin per centum ‘per hundred’, better), though its usage is more common in British English than in American English. I spell it “per cent”, too.

‘Titbit’ is also a perfectly acceptable (though this time historically less clear) British spelling of ‘tidbit’.

Because of the sentence, “I'm a grammar and style nazi”, though, I can’t resist pointing out (with a slight ) that ‘nazi’ should be capitalised.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

‘Per cent’ is just as correct as ‘percent’ (and historically more correct, as it reflects the origin, Latin per centum ‘per hundred’, better), though its usage is more common in British English than in American English. I spell it “per cent”, too.

‘Titbit’ is also a perfectly acceptable (though this time historically less clear) British spelling of ‘tidbit’.

More evidence of y grammer Nazi-ism is silly and people who are annoyed need to get a life rather than worry about trivial things..

besson3c What does one do if they can't read?

One my closest business partners can't read. Came from a 3rd world country at 20 with nothing. tried to get a GED and failed; and through his own productivity, responsibility and intelligence he now owns many factories and companies.

All the people that sit around thinking there more smarterer than every body else will always be the pessants translating his orders to clients. If one is so smart why dont' they show it with their ability to be responsible and productive.


...rather than sit around insulting people like this quote below... excuse me, trying to insult

"If you're so superior in reading and writing, why did you spell percent 'per cent'? And tidbit, 'titbit'? " - cash

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

More evidence of y grammer Nazi-ism is silly and people who are annoyed need to get a life rather than worry about trivial things..

Perhaps, but this would be analogous to wishing that every driver knew how to do a perfect three point turn. All I'd like is for drivers to know how to make a left hand turn

...rather than sit around insulting people like this... excuse me, trying to insult

If this is at all addressed at me, I refuse to believe that people cannot learn the differences between your/you're, their/they're/there, etc. It just isn't that hard. I have a hard time with political correctness here and being a pussy about this, IT JUST ISN'T THAT HARD! Just put in the work and learn this stuff, it's not rocket science.

Sorry, my rant is not directed at you...


(and for those reading this: please refrain yourself from picking apart any grammar mistakes in this post. As has been said over and over again, this is not the point).

[awaspaas]

There were two comma splices in the above post, rendering it completely meaningless.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by awaspaas 

There were two comma splices in the above post, rendering it completely meaningless.

Ouch, pwnt.

[Oisín]

One my closest business partners can't read. Came from a 3rd world country at 20 with nothing. tried to get a GED and failed; and through his own productivity, responsibility and intelligence he now owns many factories and companies.

All the people that sit around thinking there more smarterer than every body else will always be the pessants translating his orders to clients. If one is so smart why dont' they show it with their ability to be responsible and productive.

Different people, different wants and needs?

I consider myself fairly intelligent, yet I have no intention whatsoever of going out and owning factories and companies. I’m perfectly fine with the fact that many others do, but that’s just not me. I don’t want to live a life with that kind of responsibility and stress on my head. I’d far prefer, to be honest, to be the one “translating his orders to clients”.

[selowitch]

I, too, am fed up with the sheer stupidity of people and their growing indifference to grammar and punctuation. It is a real sign of intellectual and cultural decay. People may say, "Who cares? As long as I am understood, usage has more weight than rules." I couldn't disagree more. Rules are what preserves language. Obviously, different languages will always influence each other, but the pace at which this occurs (and the rate at which slang and lazy usages creep their way into speech and writing) ought to be relatively slow.

It's a sad, sad situation and it drives me crazy, too.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

If you're so superior in reading and writing, why did you spell percent 'per cent'? And tidbit, 'titbit'?

Because I'm English. Percent is American.

As for titbit, I prefer the spelling. My dictionary actually has tidbit defined as "same as titbit", which suggests to me that titbit is the original spelling.

Besides, the same dictionary defines titbit as "a tasteful morsel". Makes me think, "bit of tit".

Originally Posted by Oisín

Because of the sentence, “I'm a grammar and style nazi”, though, I can’t resist pointing out (with a slight ) that ‘nazi’ should be capitalised.

Touché.

Of course, even my use of double quotation marks is incorrect in British and international English. The reason I'm using those is because I haven't found a convenient way to expand single quotation marks into smart quotes without confusing myself.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Perhaps, but this would be analogous to wishing that every driver knew how to do a perfect three point turn. All I'd like is for drivers to know how to make a left hand turn

I all I want people to do in spelling is make a left turn

If this is at all addressed at me, I refuse to believe that people cannot learn the differences between your/you're, their/they're/there, etc.

Not addressed to you, I was referencing cash's insult on someone's lack of intelligence due to their correct-but-incorrect way of spelling. People should try to use the words correctly but mistakes here and there should be excusable, isnstead of enraging people.

Oisin:
Different people, different wants and needs?

It was just an example of how someone in a worst case scenario can rise to a best case scenario, emphasizing the pettyness of the rant; about how everyone who can't spell perfectly "PREPARE TO HAVE YOUR INTELLIGENCE JUDGED! BY THE GREAT SMART MEEEE!"
It may not take brains to inherit money or get lucky but to build business like this it does.

Not everyone has to be rich or own a business. If that's not their thing and grammar is maybe they should be volunteering their time to help kids write. In other words do something, anything that shows some productivity or responsibility. Self serving people that bitch about trivial things are annoying.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

As for titbit, I prefer the spelling. My dictionary actually has tidbit defined as "same as titbit", which suggests to me that titbit is the original spelling.

Besides, the same dictionary defines titbit as "a tasteful morsel". Makes me think, "bit of tit".

Hehe—could have been, but isn’t, sadly. The “tid” form is the original one, from a dialect word (tid) that meant ‘tender’. Even the OS X dictionary can tell you that much

Of course, even my use of double quotation marks is incorrect in British and international English. The reason I'm using those is because I haven't found a convenient way to expand single quotation marks into smart quotes without confusing myself.

You mean using proper start and finish curly quotation marks, rather than just straight ones?

Assuming you’re using a British or American keyboard layout:

“ (starting double curly quotes): Alt + [
” (ending double curly quotes): Alt + Shift + [
‘ (starting single curly quote): Alt + ]
’ (ending single curly quote): Alt + Shift + ]

– that’s not too complex, is it?

Takes a bit of getting used to, perhaps, but by now, it comes quite natural to me. To be honest, though, I only need complex key combinations for the first two (the double quotes): having to use a three-key combination every time I wanted an apostrophe annoyed me so much that I created my own keyboard layout, which I’ve been using ever since, where both the single quotes are single keystrokes as well. Also, it has the advantage of having a huge amount of diacritics coded in, so I rarely need to open the Character Palette in order to write letters such as ė or ņ (which I’d have to otherwise, ’cause I’m too much of a perfectionist to leave the diacritics out).

It was just an example of how someone in a worst case scenario can rise to a best case scenario, emphasizing the pettyness of the rant; about how everyone who can't spell perfectly "PREPARE TO HAVE YOUR INTELLIGENCE JUDGED! BY THE GREAT SMART MEEEE!"
It may not take brains to inherit money or get lucky but to build business like this it does.

I don’t think anyone (except Rob, of course) is really saying that bad grammar or spelling means someone isn’t intelligent—but in many situations (business letters, for instance), poor spelling and grammar skills will certainly reflect poorly on someone’s intellect. If I received two identical business propositions, one impeccably written and one that looked like a second-grader had written it, I would go for the former in a heartbeat.

Which is why I assume your friend is aware that writing is not his forte, and he thus has someone else do his writing for him, or at least check his writing, before sending out important letters—am I right? Because he knows that if others see poor spelling and grammar, they’ll automatically judge him by it and have it reflect on their impression of his intelligence.

Not everyone has to be rich or own a business. If that's not their thing and grammar is maybe they should be volunteering their time to help kids write. In other words do something, anything that shows some productivity or responsibility. Self serving people that bitch about trivial things are annoying.

In a way, that’s really what besson3c (and others) are doing here: volunteering their time, trying to help people become better writers. The fact that it’s done on an Internet forum, not a classroom, is irrelevant to me. I’m sure there are lots of people aware that they’re not great spellers, and as long as it’s done in a positive, encouraging fashion, I know for a fact that many such people welcome corrections and people helping them improve their writing skills.

That’s obviously not the same as having someone pick apart your every post—that’s not the intention at all. But if it’s clear that a certain person has a problem with certain words, I don’t see the fault in helping him to overcome that problem.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

...rather than sit around insulting people like this quote below... excuse me, trying to insult

"If you're so superior in reading and writing, why did you spell percent 'per cent'? And tidbit, 'titbit'? " - cash

I was asking a question. Nowhere was I insulting anybody.

[besson3c]

I have a theory.

Those that blow off grammar in a place like this with justifications such as:

- "it's only a forum, I can spell/write properly when it actually matters"
- "as long as I get my point across, that is fine"
- "I'm normally a good writer, I'm just allowing myself to be lazy"

are actually poor writers with weak justifications that are used to ignore a weakness.

Look at any study: learning a foreign language, playing a musical instrument, solving math problems, computer programming, etc. These studies involve a certain amount of practice and repetition. Once this work has been put in, one would have to actually go out of their way to mimic those who haven't put in the work - it just becomes a natural part of that person. A fluent speaker of a foreign language doesn't have to work very slowly through sentences. A good musician doesn't have to think about the fingering for a note/chord - proper mechanics are just now a part of the way that musician plays naturally.

If you are misusing "they're/their/there", "you're/your", etc. This is because this is NOT natural to you. You do *not* have a handle on this. Stop with the lame justifications.

The good news is that it is super easy to master this, it is not complicated. One way to get a handle on these issues is to use every opportunity as practice until good writing comes natural to you.

So, writing here *does* matter. Writing *everywhere* does matter, at least until you no longer make these sort of common errors.

[Oisín]

Well said. Even if you are able to write perfectly well in other conditions and are just “allowing yourself to be lazy” here, you’re hurting yourself by doing so, because sooner or later, your laziness here will spill over into your more formal writing (where proper writing is a necessity), and you’ll end up having actually unlearned what you learned in school, and really doubting whether it’s supposed to be “your” or “you’re”.

By that time, you’ll have to go back and spend a lot of effort re-learning everything, rather than just spending a small amount of effort, whenever you’re writing, making sure you get it right every time.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I have a theory.

Those that blow off grammar in a place like this with justifications such as:

- "it's only a forum, I can spell/write properly when it actually matters"
- "as long as I get my point across, that is fine"
- "I'm normally a good writer, I'm just allowing myself to be lazy"

are actually poor writers with weak justifications that are used to ignore a weakness.

Look at any study: learning a foreign language, playing a musical instrument, solving math problems, computer programming, etc. These studies involve a certain amount of practice and repetition. Once this work has been put in, one would have to actually go out of their way to mimic those who haven't put in the work - it just becomes a natural part of that person. A fluent speaker of a foreign language doesn't have to work very slowly through sentences. A good musician doesn't have to think about the fingering for a note/chord - proper mechanics are just now a part of the way that musician plays naturally.

If you are misusing "they're/their/there", "you're/your", etc. This is because this is NOT natural to you. You do *not* have a handle on this. Stop with the lame justifications.

The good news is that it is super easy to master this, it is not complicated. One way to get a handle on these issues is to use every opportunity as practice until good writing comes natural to you.

So, writing here *does* matter. Writing *everywhere* does matter, at least until you no longer make these sort of common errors.

Your wrong.

Writing hear does not matter. You need to lounge more.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Well said. Even if you are able to write perfectly well in other conditions and are just “allowing yourself to be lazy” here, you’re hurting yourself by doing so, because sooner or later, your laziness here will spill over into your more formal writing (where proper writing is a necessity), and you’ll end up having actually unlearned what you learned in school, and really doubting whether it’s supposed to be “your” or “you’re”.

By that time, you’ll have to go back and spend a lot of effort re-learning everything, rather than just spending a small amount of effort, whenever you’re writing, making sure you get it right every time.

I've never had any major disagreements with you, but I think you guys are taking this far too seriously.

In formal writing if you are using "you're" instead of "you are", you have already made a mistake. It is far more professional to use "you are" instead of "you're".

[Oisín]

In formal writing if you are using "you're" instead of "you are", you have already made a mistake. It is far more professional to use "you are" instead of "you're".

That’s true, of course. But there are other examples (such as “their”/“there”, both of which apply in formal writing, too), and there are other uses of the apostrophe than contraction: the whole general rule of how to use apostrophes for genitives vs. plurals can go down the drain here, as well. Once you start doing things the wrong way in that department, it’s very easy to lose track of what was right and what was wrong to begin with, since the rules for ‘grammatical apostrophe’ usage aren’t as clear-cut and logical as those for ‘contraction apostrophe’ usage.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

In formal writing if you are using "you're" instead of "you are", you have already made a mistake. It is far more professional to use "you are" instead of "you're".

This idea is far less pervasive nowadays, and thank God, because it's retarded.

[nonhuman]

One issue complicating matters is that most people fail to realize that written language and spoken language are actually two different things. Vernacular differences in spoken language don't exist in written language as written language is a conceptual, rather that literal, representation of the spoken. This is more easily seen in Chinese where the writing is identical between the various Chinese languages (not dialects, as they are, for the most part, mutually unintelligible), discounting, of course, the difference between simplified and traditional characters, as either writing system could be applied with equal efficacy to any Chinese language.

Appeals to 'phonetic' spelling are thus completely ridiculous because the phonemes will necessarily vary among dialects. A standard written language becomes a necessity as soon as a natural language is successful enough to fragment into dialects. Without one it becomes increasingly difficult over time to maintain a common ground between speakers of different dialects leading inevitably towards linguistic speciation. Standard written English is thus a conservative force ensuring that speakers of Boston English and Philadelphia English (for example) remain mutually intelligible.

[Oisín]

This is more easily seen in Chinese where the writing is identical between the various Chinese languages (not dialects, as they are, for the most part, mutually unintelligible), discounting, of course, the difference between simplified and traditional characters, as either writing system could be applied with equal efficacy to any Chinese language.

That’s not quite true, but the main gist holds well.

There are many dialects that have very common words, often as common as copula verbs and personal pronouns, with no traditional representation in standard Chinese characters; Cantonese and Min, for instance, use 佢 and 伊, relatively, for the third person singular personal pronoun, where Standard Mandarin uses 他. Of these two, 伊 does exist in Mandarin, with the same meaning as in Min, but it’s never used except in transcription of foreign words; 佢, however, does not exist at all in Mandarin, and it’s not possible to type it using Mandarin keyboard layouts—I had to find it in my dictionary app and copy-paste it to get it in this post. Similarly, the Cantonese word equivalent to Mandarin 的 is 嘅, which also doesn’t exist at all in Mandarin.

Also, grammatical differences between the different Chinese regionalects make writings, even in characters, not quite mutually intelligible, as they have different word orders and the likes.

Still, it is a valid point: spoken and written language are two different things, even more so in a language like Chinese.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

That’s not quite true, but the main gist holds well.

There are many dialects that have very common words, often as common as copula verbs and personal pronouns, with no traditional representation in standard Chinese characters; Cantonese and Min, for instance, use 佢 and 伊, relatively, for the third person singular personal pronoun, where Standard Mandarin uses 他. Of these two, 伊 does exist in Mandarin, with the same meaning as in Min, but it’s never used except in transcription of foreign words; 佢, however, does not exist at all in Mandarin, and it’s not possible to type it using Mandarin keyboard layouts—I had to find it in my dictionary app and copy-paste it to get it in this post. Similarly, the Cantonese word equivalent to Mandarin 的 is 嘅, which also doesn’t exist at all in Mandarin.

Also, grammatical differences between the different Chinese regionalects make writings, even in characters, not quite mutually intelligible, as they have different word orders and the likes.

Still, it is a valid point: spoken and written language are two different things, even more so in a language like Chinese.

You're right of course. You'll have to forgive me as I'm currently about 6 fingers of bourbon down.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I have a theory.

Those that blow off grammar in a place like this with justifications such as:

- "it's only a forum, I can spell/write properly when it actually matters"
- "as long as I get my point across, that is fine"
- "I'm normally a good writer, I'm just allowing myself to be lazy"

are actually poor writers with weak justifications that are used to ignore a weakness.

Look at any study: learning a foreign language, playing a musical instrument, solving math problems, computer programming, etc. These studies involve a certain amount of practice and repetition. Once this work has been put in, one would have to actually go out of their way to mimic those who haven't put in the work - it just becomes a natural part of that person. A fluent speaker of a foreign language doesn't have to work very slowly through sentences. A good musician doesn't have to think about the fingering for a note/chord - proper mechanics are just now a part of the way that musician plays naturally.

If you are misusing "they're/their/there", "you're/your", etc. This is because this is NOT natural to you. You do *not* have a handle on this. Stop with the lame justifications.

The good news is that it is super easy to master this, it is not complicated. One way to get a handle on these issues is to use every opportunity as practice until good writing comes natural to you.

So, writing here *does* matter. Writing *everywhere* does matter, at least until you no longer make these sort of common errors.

Agree 200%.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

This idea is far less pervasive nowadays, and thank God, because it's retarded.

What world do you live in? I assure you, at the university level it is still the current standard.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

What world do you live in? I assure you, at the university level it is still the current standard.

Really? I was always taught that contractions, in general, were undesirable in any formal context.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

That’s true, of course. But there are other examples (such as “their”/“there”, both of which apply in formal writing, too), and there are other uses of the apostrophe than contraction: the whole general rule of how to use apostrophes for genitives vs. plurals can go down the drain here, as well. Once you start doing things the wrong way in that department, it’s very easy to lose track of what was right and what was wrong to begin with, since the rules for ‘grammatical apostrophe’ usage aren’t as clear-cut and logical as those for ‘contraction apostrophe’ usage.

Well, we can't all be linguists. But I think those who "get it" and those who do not simply will not find common ground. All you do is piss off the ones who will not go through the effort to proof-read everything they write.

The people who I find the most discouraging, (and this is NOT you), are the ones who harp about this issue and yet make multiple mistakes in their post as well. It is difficult to take those people seriously.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Really? I was always taught that contractions, in general, were undesirable in any formal context.

That is the point I am trying to make. Chuckit it stating that it is a dated standard to not use contractions. I disagree with him. Contractions are still frowned upon post-jr. high school.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

That is the point I am trying to make. Chuckit it stating that it is a dated standard to not use contractions. I disagree with him. Contractions are still frowned upon post-jr. high school.

Ah. I misunderstood.

Although I think the problem lasts beyond jr. high school. When I was a senior in high school there were people in my English class who did not understand the difference between a noun, a verb, and and an adjective. The only way they could remember the part of speech for vocabulary quizzes was to memorize it for every single word, whereas I had it drilled into my head since kindergarten that a noun was a 'person, place, thing, or idea' &c.

[besson3c]

(From the Windows or iMac thread)


It seems like there is a war going on (although "war" is admittedly an over-dramatic label for it) between people who want to sound smart and people who think it doesn't matter and manage to come up with lame justifications for sounding dumb. I believe that email and SMS messaging and similar technology has made it easy and convenient for "functional" communication, and that this stream of conscious writing style and has crept into semi-formal writing mediums. There was a NYTimes article a while back about how some businesses are actually paying for some of their employees to take remedial writing classes... I wish I still had that article bookmarked!

The conflict seems to be between people that care and want to preserve coherent English vs. people who say "it doesn't matter", "give this person a break", "stop being a grammar Nazi", "this isn't school/English class", etc.

It seems like the latter is winning out, and this is quite a pity.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The conflict seems to be between people that care and want to preserve coherent English vs. people who say "it doesn't matter", "give this person a break", "stop being a grammar Nazi", "this isn't school/English class", etc.

It seems like the latter is winning out, and this is quite a pity.

It's OK that the latter is winning out. Fast food joints are still spreading like wildfire to take them in.

Originally Posted by Oisín 

That’s true, of course. But there are other examples (such as “their”/“there”, both of which apply in formal writing, too), and there are other uses of the apostrophe than contraction: the whole general rule of how to use apostrophes for genitives vs. plurals can go down the drain here, as well.

The rule of how to use apostrophes for plurals is extremely simple: DON'T. It is never necessary and almost always wrong.