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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Is OSX going to be a Universal (Fat) OS?

Is OSX going to be a Universal (Fat) OS?
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mattsgotredhair
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Jan 13, 2006, 07:55 PM
 
I'm curious as to what people think is going to happen with going between Intel and PPC computers. I'm a ProTools user and I have a firewire disk that I use to startup systems from on different machines depending on the hardware that is available at that specific machine. I'm wondering if this is still going to be possible, or am I going to have to have yet another set of partitions for Intel machines?
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
mduell
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Jan 13, 2006, 07:59 PM
 
As far as I know 10.4.4 is currently two seperate builds. I think its safe to assume 10.5 will be all universal, but the rest of 10.4 may stay seperate binaries.
     
jasong
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Jan 13, 2006, 08:02 PM
 
Apple has released a few Knowledge Base articles on this

Mac OS X discs for PowerPC-based Macs don't work with Intel-based Macs
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303058

Working with architecture-specific NetBoot images
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303113
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mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 13, 2006, 08:23 PM
 
I've just seen some speculation that the Universal Binaries installers will detect which architecture you are using and then delete the unnecessary components after install. I hope if this is true that it will be a defeatable option.
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
Big Mac
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Jan 13, 2006, 08:30 PM
 
A universal binary will have to run on either architecture - or else the name "universal binary" will be completely worthless. But I seriously doubt the entire OS will be a universal install.

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CatOne
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Jan 13, 2006, 08:39 PM
 
You need separate images for the separate machines. You won't be able to firewire boot a PPC Mac via an Intel Mac in Target Disk Mode.

The application binaries are universal, the OSes are not. Makes sense... the OS will only be installed on one machine. Plus binary versions of non-applications (e.g. the kernel and UNIX binaries like ls, mv, cp, cat, etc.) really would be ugly and unnecessary.
     
mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 13, 2006, 09:03 PM
 
Totally makes sense, I was just hoping for a miracle. Oh well, no biggie to do seperate partitions.
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
TETENAL
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Jan 13, 2006, 09:21 PM
 
Separate partitions won't help. You can't boot either type of Mac from the same disk (as far as I understand Apple's documentation).
     
chabig
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Jan 13, 2006, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattsgotredhair
I've just seen some speculation that the Universal Binaries installers will detect which architecture you are using and then delete the unnecessary components after install. I hope if this is true that it will be a defeatable option.
I think it's safe to say that this will not be the case. If it were, apps wouldn't be identified as "universal" by the Finder, yet they are.

Chris
     
mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 13, 2006, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
Separate partitions won't help. You can't boot either type of Mac from the same disk (as far as I understand Apple's documentation).
Whaaaaaaaat?! Major bummer...
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
chabig
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Jan 13, 2006, 10:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattsgotredhair
Whaaaaaaaat?! Major bummer...
Are you in the habit of carrying boot disks around?
     
mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 13, 2006, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
Are you in the habit of carrying boot disks around?
From my original post.
Originally Posted by mattsgotredhair
I'm a ProTools user and I have a firewire disk that I use to startup systems from on different machines depending on the hardware that is available at that specific machine.
Yes.
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
chabig
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Jan 13, 2006, 11:55 PM
 
OK then. You'd have to carry around two startup disks, which would be a pain. But the makers of TechTool pro were displaying a neat device at MacWorld--a bootable firewire flash drive. It's the same size as a normal flash drive, so carrying two of those wouldn't be awfully hard.

Chris
     
andgarden
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Jan 14, 2006, 01:33 AM
 
well, the installer discs for DevKit macs were completely Universal.
     
JLL
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Jan 14, 2006, 05:30 AM
 
Apple is working on a Universal OS but I don't think we'll see it until 10.5.

The seeds of 10.4 for the Developer Transition Kit can be installed on either Intel Macs or PowerPC Macs, but you can't boot a PowerPC Mac from an Intel install.
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Jan 14, 2006, 05:33 AM
 
So actually, the seeds were just completely lazy.
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mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 14, 2006, 12:40 PM
 
So will drives that contain data created on a PPC Mac mount on an Intel Mac?
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
SMacTech
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Jan 14, 2006, 12:51 PM
 
What of all your external devices that require a driver?

My understanding is that if OS X 10.4 didn't support it natively, and you needed to install a driver for supporting that device, then these devices will not work until the driver is updated.

Can any one corroborate this ?
     
Chuckit
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Jan 14, 2006, 03:11 PM
 
It depends on what the "driver" is. For instance, the CameraMate card reader installs a kernel extension to talk to the reader. That won't work. But some scanners just install ordinary programs that allow you to communicate with the device, and those will probably work.
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tigas
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Jan 14, 2006, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattsgotredhair
So will drives that contain data created on a PPC Mac mount on an Intel Mac?
They will mount, but they won't boot the MacIntel, even if they have a iMacOSX installation or a "Universal" installation inside.
     
SMacTech
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Jan 14, 2006, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
It depends on what the "driver" is. For instance, the CameraMate card reader installs a kernel extension to talk to the reader. That won't work. But some scanners just install ordinary programs that allow you to communicate with the device, and those will probably work.
Someone much more in the know than I, just emailed me and basically confirmed if the driver is NOT part of OS X 10.4.4, or an installed driver specifically stated to support MacIntel, then it WILL NOT work.

That is not to say there may be some CUPS work-around for a printer. But my Star TSP643U point-of-sale receipt printers DO NOT work on MacIntel until Star Micronics upgrades the driver to support MacIntel.
     
Millennium
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Jan 14, 2006, 08:26 PM
 
It's not possible to make the OS completely universal, becasuse the code which decides how to make Universal Binaries can't itself be a Universal Binary. Otherwise, how would the OS know which version of it to load? This is the same reason why the code which manages virtual memory can never be paged out to disk; the OS wouldn't know how to page it back in.

This said, in theory it's possible that large parts of the OS -anything except for the Universal Binary code and anything that loaded before it- might be made Universal. I doubt that Apple will do this, though. More likely, they'll only give applications the Universal treatment.
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mrgaskell
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Jan 15, 2006, 04:35 AM
 
So, does that mean that anyone with a PPC mac will not bea able to upgrade to 10.5? So if you buy a quad g5 you're screwed?
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Detrius
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Jan 15, 2006, 04:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
Separate partitions won't help. You can't boot either type of Mac from the same disk (as far as I understand Apple's documentation).

I'm curious what documentation you are referring to here.
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Jan 15, 2006, 04:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Detrius
I'm curious what documentation you are referring to here.
I'm not sure this is right either.

I think you're trying to reference that an Intel Mac HFS boot partition is a bit different because it uses the new EFI boot hint section at the start of the partition, but I don't think this affects the whole partition map. Maybe it does. Dunno.
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Simon
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Jan 15, 2006, 05:27 AM
 
The way I understand Apple is that the disk just has to be formatted with an Intel Mac due to the EFI boot loader. So if I buy a disk, format it with Intel, then make two partitions, each one of them can hold an OS install (10.4.4 PPC on one, 10.4.4 Intel on the other) and both should be bootable.

I guess the disk has to be formatted with an Intel Mac because the PPC Macs don't know anything about the EFI boot loader (yet). How should they prepare the disk for it? The question then is, will future PPC OS releases include new partitioning code that allows disks to be formatted for Intel and PPC by the PPC OS instead of just by the Intel OS?
     
tigas
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Jan 15, 2006, 08:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
The way I understand Apple is that the disk just has to be formatted with an Intel Mac due to the EFI boot loader. So if I buy a disk, format it with Intel, then make two partitions, each one of them can hold an OS install (10.4.4 PPC on one, 10.4.4 Intel on the other) and both should be bootable.
Right now, it seems that won't work because PowerPC machines won't be able to read the EFI partitioning (GPT), so it won't be able to get to the volume you made for it. This is unconfirmed but very likely, given that Apple is recommending OpenFirmware partitioning for external drives even for Intel MacOSX. I hope some programming wizard creates a driver to read GPT disks on PowerPC, if Apple fails to deliver.

Originally Posted by Simon
I guess the disk has to be formatted with an Intel Mac because the PPC Macs don't know anything about the EFI boot loader (yet). How should they prepare the disk for it? The question then is, will future PPC OS releases include new partitioning code that allows disks to be formatted for Intel and PPC by the PPC OS instead of just by the Intel OS?
For Apple, the only reason to partition a disk in GPT is to serve as a system volume for an Intel Mac; since the installations of MacOSX are almost sure not to be universal (how would you turn the commandline applications / BSD Subsystem from flat to universal?), this is not a problem, because the system installed or cloned in a GPT disk will surely be for IntelMacs.

It is a bummer, though, that you have to create different physical emergency boot drives for IntelMacs and for PPCMacs if you admin a large number of machines
     
Simon
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Jan 15, 2006, 08:54 AM
 
If it is indeed like that, it sucks.

I have a large FW disk with several partitions on it. Each holds an up-to-date ASR clone for each of my Macs. In case of an emergency I can boot every Mac off of its partition on my FW disk and restore from there. According to what you just said, this won't work as soon as I get my MBP. I will need to get a second FW disk.
     
Busemann
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by JLL
Apple is working on a Universal OS but I don't think we'll see it until 10.5.
An 8GB install then?
     
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
It's not possible to make the OS completely universal, becasuse the code which decides how to make Universal Binaries can't itself be a Universal Binary. Otherwise, how would the OS know which version of it to load?
I disagree. We already know that Intel Macs can't boot from PowerPC disk drives and vice versa. The computer never has to make a "choice" about which version to load.

Chris
     
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrgaskell
So, does that mean that anyone with a PPC mac will not bea able to upgrade to 10.5? So if you buy a quad g5 you're screwed?
Of course you will be able to update a PowerPC Mac to 10.5.
     
chabig
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrgaskell
So, does that mean that anyone with a PPC mac will not bea able to upgrade to 10.5? So if you buy a quad g5 you're screwed?
No. Apple will be making PowerPC OSes for years. You can buy that Quad G5 without worry.

Chris
     
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Detrius
I'm curious what documentation you are referring to here.
http://developer.apple.com/documenta...ection_10.html

This one says an Intel Mac doesn't boot a disk formatted on a PowerPC Mac because EFI requires a GUID Partition Table. It doesn't say the reverse that a PowerPC Mac doesn't boot from a disk with a GPT, but I would assume so. OpenFirmware probably needs a Apple Partition Map to boot from a disk. (One could actually try it out, you can partition a disk with "PC partitioning scheme" in the options of Disk Utility/Partitioning and try whether a PowerPC Mac wants to boot off it, but I don't have a hard disk free for such an experiment.)
     
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by tigas
how would you turn the commandline applications / BSD Subsystem from flat to universal?
Commandline applications can be universal binary. It's a feature of the MachO binary format to support multiple binaries for different architectures. No problem here.
     
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Detrius
I'm curious what documentation you are referring to here.
http://developer.apple.com/documenta...ection_10.html
     
tigas
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Jan 15, 2006, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
OpenFirmware probably needs a Apple Partition Map to boot from a disk. (One could actually try it out, you can partition a disk with "PC partitioning scheme" in the options of Disk Utility/Partitioning and try whether a PowerPC Mac wants to boot off it, but I don't have a hard disk free for such an experiment.)
That "PC Partitioning Scheme" in the current PowerPC Disk Utility.app is the old Fdisk Partition table, not GPT.

Some lucky guys are getting their grubby hands on iMacsCore today and tomorrow, and this is one of the first things I'm going to ask them (if they can format external drives in GPT through Disk Utility or if only the OS Installer can do on installation).
     
tigas
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Jan 15, 2006, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
Commandline applications can be universal binary. It's a feature of the MachO binary format to support multiple binaries for different architectures. No problem here.
That's very very nice and good news. The next MacOS 10.5 should come in a double-layer DVD then .
     
chabig
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Jan 15, 2006, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by tigas
Some lucky guys are getting their grubby hands on iMacsCore today and tomorrow, and this is one of the first things I'm going to ask them (if they can format external drives in GPT through Disk Utility or if only the OS Installer can do on installation).
Apple says you can: http://developer.apple.com/documenta...ection_10.html

Chris
     
tigas
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Jan 15, 2006, 11:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
Hmmm. The DiskUtility of the 10.4.4 I have in my Pismo does not have that option (to partition in GPT). Only Apple Partitions or PC Partitions (which are the old Fdisk partitions).

However, I have found a command-line utility, gpt, that claims to be able to partition drives in GPT format. This utility is NOT user-friendly and is a bit rough around the edges, man gpt to confirm it.

Now, all we need to know is if ppcMacOSX can mount GPT partitions. I'm off to bed.
     
JLL
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Jan 16, 2006, 05:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
An 8GB install then?
Far from every file in Mac OS X is a binary, and a Universal Binary isn't necessarily twice as big.
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Millennium
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Jan 16, 2006, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
I disagree. We already know that Intel Macs can't boot from PowerPC disk drives and vice versa. The computer never has to make a "choice" about which version to load.
The computer doesn't have to make a choice because the kernel isn't Universal. But even if the kernel were Universal, the computer would not be able to make the necessary choice, because the Universal Binary drivers wouldn't have loaded yet.
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tigas
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Jan 17, 2006, 03:53 PM
 
And Bingo! ppcMacOSX can format and read GPT partitions, as of 10.4.3. That gpt utility plugs into DiskUtility and even though the option is not in the graphical version of DiskUtility it's in the command-line.

Its diskutil partitionDisk <device name> GPTFormat <filesystem> <volumename> .

Only in 10.4.3+, though. For backwards compatibility it's Apple Partitions.
     
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Jan 17, 2006, 08:27 PM
 
If Apple is going to release a universal 'fat' installer, wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity for them to name the next OS X revision 'FAT TABBY'!

The tag line could be, "The cat that can make its bed on any platform."
     
SmileyDude
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Jan 18, 2006, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by tigas
how would you turn the commandline applications / BSD Subsystem from flat to universal?
the command line apps are not a problem -- the way applications are made universal is in the Mach-O binary. Since all command line apps are Mach-O binaries, they too can be universal. Check out the manpage for the lipo command.

I just did a quick test on my machine to see if I could compile a universal binary for a command line app -- it wasn't too hard, you just have to do everything twice:
Code:
# gcc -arch ppc -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk hello.c -o hello.ppc # gcc -arch i386 -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk hello.c -o hello.i386 # lipo -create hello.ppc hello.i386 -output hello
I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader as to what goes in hello.c
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Jan 18, 2006, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattsgotredhair
I'm curious as to what people think is going to happen with going between Intel and PPC computers. I'm a ProTools user and I have a firewire disk that I use to startup systems from on different machines depending on the hardware that is available at that specific machine. I'm wondering if this is still going to be possible, or am I going to have to have yet another set of partitions for Intel machines?
Have you thought about setting up a server with NetBoot?
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mattsgotredhair  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
Have you thought about setting up a server with NetBoot?
Um... I'm not exactly sure what that is, but if it involves lugging a computer around with me to every session then that's not even an option I want to consider. If I was going to do that, I'd just build my own ProTools rig and rack it.
maybe you've been brainwashed too.
     
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
 
Does OS X need yet another version to support 64-bitness on Intel? If so, will 32-bit OS X 10.4.7 Intel boot a 64-bit Intel?
     
Chuckit
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Jan 20, 2006, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
Does OS X need yet another version to support 64-bitness on Intel? If so, will 32-bit OS X 10.4.7 Intel boot a 64-bit Intel?
Darwin already runs on AMD64, so my guess is no. But Apple could always decide to do it anyway.
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Jan 20, 2006, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Darwin already runs on AMD64
Does it run on AMD64 with 64-bit support?
     
   
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